If the mappers didn't enjoy the game, they wouldn't be bothering to work on a map in their own time in the hope they might get paid for it if it turned out to be popular. They make maps to be creative and have fun.
I suspect any amateur mapper would feel honoured to have their maps included, without expecting any recompense. The kudos of having their name in lights in a published game would be enough for most.
By offering a payment, however small, UWE are saying thanks to the very people who helped make it such a fun game to start with. Even if the offer was a refund of the price of the game and perhaps a second free unlock code to give to a friend, i'd be happy !
Now while we're at it, how about a community generated library of components that could be incorporated into the maps for free - i'm getting a bit sick of seeing the welder in so many screenshots, and i'd like to see something else... tables, chairs, mobile tool chests, hospital beds, vehicles of all kinds, anything to vary the environment a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1740994:date=Nov 27 2009, 09:12 PM:name=phoenixbbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phoenixbbs @ Nov 27 2009, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now while we're at it, how about a community generated library of components that could be incorporated into the maps for free - i'm getting a bit sick of seeing the welder in so many screenshots, and i'd like to see something else... tables, chairs, mobile tool chests, hospital beds, vehicles of all kinds, anything to vary the environment a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a thread on art assets we'd like to see, UWE are looking over it for consideration... Although I kinda mentioned those things except vehicles (Except a small spacecraft) so I already saved you the hassle of that lol.
As one of those amateur map designers, I don't even want compensation - rather the prestige alone would be worth it. Of course, that assumes it makes the cut! The OP poses a good question but asks it in a fairly immature way.
I try to think of UWE as a community enabler, not a company. I'm willing to pay for that community... because it fits a style, theme, complexity and social venue that I enjoy. So, I'm not only contributing to that but I'm doing something challenging, creative and personally rewarding. Of course, many will still always ask the essential question that destroys a community - "what's in it for me?". Just go play L4D/2 for a length of time and you'll discover exactly what a one way relationship with a game is like.
Also, please only use terms you understand, like communism or ethics, neither of which are really accurately used in your diatribe.
I know a mapper who had a popular local cyber cafe offer to pay him for a CS:S map of their cafe. He was paid something like $500 for it, and in the end he calculated that he'd made about $2 an hour.
He loved making maps, and had made a ton before that. He probably would have done it for free, but they wanted to own it once it was done, so they paid him.
He then made a portfolio site and applied around. He was hired by Infinity Ward and is credited on both Modern Warfare titles as a level designer.
Sure, the map wasn't worth the 'profit', but he didn't do it for that. He did it for the love of mapping, with the bonus of looking great on his portfolio. I'm sure the extra $500 was appreciated, and it sure beats 'did it for free' on the resume.
Ethics be damned, you have to make a good map to have it go official. UWE might accept a payment of $1 for certain maps they want if the author is that pushy about it, but they WILL profit off of it so you might as well get your share and think of yourself as a real partner in the game.
I'm pretty sure there is an end-user agreement in nearly every editor that is distributed by the game developers stating that whatever you create in that editor belongs to said distributors. This means anything you make with their editor, it's their property and they decide what they want to do with it, and also means you can't use their editors to make a buck for yourself.
This guy reminds me of my father. No matter what you do it is not good enough. Just like I had to hear about being an embarrasment to my family because I don't make $30k a year with a major company (I make about $35k as a self employed DJ and cook for a deli), so I know the type.
My honest take on all this -
If your map is popular enough to get the developers attention, then most people probably play it. That leaves 2 choices, everyone can play it as an unoffical custom map, or you can get some money for it, add it to your resume if you are in the game industry, and get offical recongtion while everyone plays it. And after all, you can't make a map for NS and then sell it to Valve to use in TF2, so there is no reason to turn down UWE if the offer, unless the take too much creative control away
- sorry for any spelling errors, long day and a few beers
Very good custom maps which are played often and get huge attention will most likely be "bought" by the developer team - this happened in TF2 and CS and a couple of other games I'm sure. I don't see a problem when you're a talented mapper who knows the right cocktail for the perfect maplayout/design and get credited for your work.
Seeing his map to become official is imo the best that can happen to a mapper.
/e: as already mentioned by insane and dux - sorry i firstly posted then read :/
<!--quoteo(post=1741139:date=Nov 28 2009, 01:24 AM:name=Black_Hawk_VS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Hawk_VS @ Nov 28 2009, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This guy reminds me of my father. No matter what you do it is not good enough. Just like I had to hear about being an embarrasment to my family because I don't make $30k a year with a major company (I make about $35k as a self employed DJ and cook for a deli), so I know the type.
My honest take on all this -
If your map is popular enough to get the developers attention, then most people probably play it. That leaves 2 choices, everyone can play it as an unoffical custom map, or you can get some money for it, add it to your resume if you are in the game industry, and get offical recongtion while everyone plays it. And after all, you can't make a map for NS and then sell it to Valve to use in TF2, so there is no reason to turn down UWE if the offer, unless the take too much creative control away
- sorry for any spelling errors, long day and a few beers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Took me a second to realize you were talking about the original post, lol. You summarized it pretty well though.
<!--quoteo(post=1740961:date=Nov 27 2009, 07:41 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Nov 27 2009, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's win win all around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To a degree, I suppose, but it's more like a "<b><u><i>WIN</i></u></b>-<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->win<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->" with respect to the company.
If companies like Valve are saving money by paying next to nothing for individual maps compared to the cost of a salaried map maker and given that your maps were good enough to impress them, it could be better - you could be in that salaried position making maps.
The Catch-22 of this is you get recognition for a map with the hope of getting that salaried position... but those positions are becoming more and more rare as companies simply fire the mapping staff and outsource it to what amounts to a sweatshop of amateurs in your community, save thousands of dollars, and pass the savings on to... their wallets.
<!--quoteo(post=1741142:date=Nov 28 2009, 06:38 AM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(blackpiranha @ Nov 28 2009, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seeing his map to become official is imo the best that can happen to a mapper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. I'm sure when Clare Torry didn't receive any royalties for 'Dark Side of the Moon', you would just tell her 'Shut up and be happy that you got to contribute to the album'. Or any of the other MILLIONS of suits that have been filed over the years for everything from due compensation to patent and copyright infringement cases.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format?
<!--quoteo(post=1741152:date=Nov 28 2009, 02:29 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->companies simply fire the mapping staff and outsource it to what amounts to a sweatshop of amateurs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1741142:date=Nov 28 2009, 06:38 AM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(blackpiranha @ Nov 28 2009, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seeing his map to become official is imo the best that can happen to a mapper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clare Torry sang the entire song 'Great Gig in the Sky' for Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side of the Moon'. She was paid £30 for it. In 2003 she said that her work constituted co-authorship and sued EMI. The courts agreed she was owed royalties for the album.
Would you tell her that she should shut up and just be "happy that she got to contribute"? Just because it was a great opportunity for her didn't change the fact that <u>she contributed to an album that was sold for profit</u>, and £30 was not fair compensation for that.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format? The interesting thing here is that when community stuff starts getting implemented, there's very real grounds for a lawsuit on these very grounds.
<!--quoteo(post=1741152:date=Nov 28 2009, 07:29 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's the funny part about this.
If companies like UWE and Valve are saving money by paying next to nothing for individual maps compared to the cost of a salaried map maker... well clearly they're coming out WAY ahead. And given that your maps were good enough to impress them, again, it could be better - you could be in that salaried position making maps.
The Catch-22 of this is, what is the point of having a map resume when it's becoming more and more popular to simply fire your mapping staff and use the community as a sweat-shop?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that's not how it works?
Valve do not fire their staff just to make money off the hard working community members they can oh so easily exploit. No if they didn't include maps from the community I think you'd find we'd still get the same amount of maps from Valve in an update.
Mapping is a very time consuming process, they can't just churn out good map after good map (I say good because making a crap map is obviously easy). Plus at the time they also had staff working on L4D2 and (Hopefully) HL2:EP3, now, L4D2 istself shipped with 23 maps all together, each analysed and play tested to death. To make them in the first place took some serious effort and time, but quality control would be just as gruelling.
The same thing applies to TF2, they didn't just throw out any map for an update, they put out maps that went through just as much building, tweaking and quality control. They added community maps on top of that to sure, maybe bulk the update, but to mainly acknowledge those talented individuals who put out some steller maps. What those individuals do with that is up to them, but most mappers who want to go into this career wise would add that to a portfolio and try to land their first job in the industry.
It really is the equivilant of doing voluntary work to earn experience for a paid position. Experience being essential here because every job section on the gaming company websites will usually have at least one position for 'Experienced environmental/level designer - Must have examples of previous work'. You can't get a paid position without being 'exploited' first.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up: Whether you get paid fairly for something you made has absolutely ######-all to do with your ability to put it in a portfolio. It's like you're trying to prove I'm wrong by presenting this idea that I'm just here to kill people's dreams.
If I wanted to do that, I'd point out that there are literally THOUSANDS of amateur mappers out there right now and that your odds of ending up in the game industry irrespective of your talent is slim to absolute none. I'd say most map makers have no illusions about doing it professionally. Of all the communities for all the different TC mods I've been in, I know of only three or four people who got jobs in the game industry, and I don't think any of them still have their jobs. And note that I said INDUSTRY; meaning the mapper didn't necessarily get a job mapping.
<!--quoteo(post=1741158:date=Nov 28 2009, 08:01 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 08:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clare Torry sang the entire song 'Great Gig in the Sky' for Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side of the Moon'. She was paid £30 for it. In 2003 she said that her work constituted co-authorship and sued EMI. The courts agreed she was owed royalties for the album.
Would you tell her that she should shut up and just be "happy that she got to contribute"? Just because it was a great opportunity for her didn't change the fact that <u>she contributed to an album that was sold for profit</u>, and £30 was not fair compensation for that.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amazing, I'm listening to that album right now and it's one of my favourite songs.
But regardless, that's a really bad analogy for a video game. Map making is more akin to set design for a film or theatre.
Also you can always disagree to sell your map if you don't agree on the compensation, which we don't even know what that is yet. It's also perfectly possible UWE won't buy any of our maps because they consider them low standard, we really don't know yet and arguing for this is pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1741161:date=Nov 28 2009, 08:09 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up: Whether you get paid fairly for something you made has absolutely ######-all to do with your ability to put it in a portfolio. It's like you're trying to prove I'm wrong by presenting this idea that I'm just here to kill people's dreams.
If I wanted to do that, I'd point out that there are literally THOUSANDS of amateur mappers out there right now and that your odds of ending up in the game industry irrespective of your talent is slim to absolute none. I'd say most map makers have no illusions about doing it professionally. Of all the communities for all the different TC mods I've been in, I know of only three or four people who got jobs in the game industry, and I don't think any of them still have their jobs. And note that I said INDUSTRY; meaning the mapper didn't necessarily get a job mapping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I just don't understand your logic here and your unfounded statements such as:
<!--quoteo(post=1741152:date=Nov 28 2009, 07:29 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Catch-22 of this is you get recognition for a map with the hope of getting that salaried position... but those positions are becoming more and more rare as companies simply fire the mapping staff and outsource it to what amounts to a sweatshop of amateurs in your community, save thousands of dollars, and pass the savings on to... their wallets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You also don't seem to listen, as I said most level design positions ask for experience. Of course my chances of landing a job is significantly increased if I have proof that I'm not one of the thousands of amateur mappers, if I can prove I have talent, I can work to a schedule, I have experience with all of the different elements of game design including other areas not related to mapping then it's all fine, time to hunt for a paid position. Of course to put all of that proof into one nice fleshed out portfolio means doing a hell of a lot of things I wouldn't imagine getting paid for, such as making mods and designing levels and this is my point right here. <b>The reward for doing these things isn't short term money and if that's your goal you're out of luck. Whether it's not fair or wrong is your opinion, but the majority do this for fun and if you disagree with that you have a simple choice of not doing it. Get a job in championing artist's rights if you care so much.</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This gives us some nice press and some early feedback but even more importantly, it means you guys can start creating maps. With Natural Selection, we included the best community maps as "official" and part of the game and we'll be doing the same for Natural Selection 2. Because we are selling NS2 though, that means we'll be buying maps from you guys outright. Many NS1 mappers moved on into the game industry professionally and we think this is an even better opportunity!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone give me one good reason as to why this quote doesn't make this thread obsolete?
I fully agree with Temphage. Would you accept the same conditions if you were, say, applying for a job in the steel mills?
"Sorry bud, we can't hire you before we know you're already experienced in the profession. And you can't be experienced unless you've worked for someone who won't hire you. So yeah, uh, come over here and shovel coal and fix pipes for a year or so for free - then we'll start paying you."
No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.
<!--quoteo(post=1741186:date=Nov 28 2009, 09:20 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Nov 28 2009, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I fully agree with Thempage. Would you accept the same conditions if you were, say, applying for a job in the steel mills?
"Sorry bud, we can't hire you before we know you're already experienced in the profession. And you can't be experienced unless you've worked for someone who won't hire you. So yeah, uh, come over here and shovel coal and fix pipes for a year or so for free - then we'll start paying you."
No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No but see they do give us the tools to gain experience, it's why Valve and Epic release their map editors and modding tools free of charge for non commercial use and run occasional competitions with prize money in the range of $5000 to $10,000, plus recognition, which to me is worth more than money. They invest by allowing us to mess with their games and learn. It's why we all go to school right? To get a nice job. Should we be compensated for going to school? Usually we pay for that kind of education, I don't know about a Steel Mill, but try being a plumber or electrician without the neccessary training.
Allways think we are doing it as a hobby at the time, so we are not planning to get any money. If my map gets into a ns2 release I would be happe due to a map wich i made for a game, that you have to own if you wanna play the map, and the map gets more popular then I could have expected and it would be a really great thing on my portfolio to have the words "released on the game natural selection 2". Also UWE has stated they would buy maps, so I really don't feel it's wrong to get the community for such a thing. For me as a level designer I see it as a great opportunity, not as a problem -_-
<!--quoteo(post=1741186:date=Nov 28 2009, 11:20 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Nov 28 2009, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I fully agree with Temphage. Would you accept the same conditions if you were, say, applying for a job in the steel mills?
"Sorry bud, we can't hire you before we know you're already experienced in the profession. And you can't be experienced unless you've worked for someone who won't hire you. So yeah, uh, come over here and shovel coal and fix pipes for a year or so for free - then we'll start paying you."
No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a hobby and we do it for fun. Who works in the steel mills as a hobby?
If we get paid for it, it's something extra. Not that hard to understand.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of all the communities for all the different TC mods I've been in, I know of only three or four people who got jobs in the game industry, and I don't think any of them still have their jobs. And note that I said INDUSTRY; meaning the mapper didn't necessarily get a job mapping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting into the game industry <i>at all</i> is a difficult task, and keeping your job can be an even tougher one. Through my education and hard work as an aspiring environment artist I've been fortunate enough to work with industry professionals from studios like Robomodo, Raven Software, and gain insight from ex-EA employees who've gone freelance. If there's one thing I took from the many questions I've asked, it's that job stability is a rarity within the industry. But that's true of <i>every</i> position within the industry, not only level design.
I'd also like to point out that your portfolio is everything - if they can't see what you've done your resume and chances of a job will go straight in the trash.
I'm not sure I understand the argument within this thread. UWE released tools to the community to create maps, and should UWE find something they're interested in from any of the user-made maps they'll offer compensation to the creator to be placed into the game when it ships. That's a fair deal. Valve does it too. It's essentially what outsourcing is only far less official. What exactly is the problem? What am I missing here?
I might be going completely tangential to the discussion at hand here, but for me, I really feel that the issue of ethics is in the amount of material we actually get from game designers on a whole for the price we pay.
The idea that we're getting only 4 maps from UWE with NS2 comes as a bit of a surprise to me, but I feel like it's something that they can pull off well, considering that it only costs $20, is run by four people, and the Spark Editor is powerful enough to allow intermediate mappers make things that look almost professional (at least in appearance if not in gameplay and flow). For UWE, I think it's pretty acceptable--especially considering that I've felt that UWE really actually cares a lot about their customers and listens to feedback.
However, what I feel is a current issue is just the amount of play we get for our money; MW2 cost what, $60? It comes with approximately 10 maps, most of which I feel are unsatisfying plays; there's something about gameplay on them that just isn't "tight" enough for my tastes. There's a few maps that <i>no one</i> likes. Consider that in comparison to HL2:DM which has a whopping 7 pre-packaged levels, which while small, have really good level design; TF2 and CS:S have the same story. And you might say, well, they're designed nicely, and we can make maps for them, so what's the problem, right?
If we look at Rare, who made Goldeneye and Perfect Dark (I certainly hope many of you have played Perfect Dark--I'm sure most, if not all of you have played Goldeneye), we can see really quality time and work. Goldeneye had something like 15-20 levels, and if I recall correctly, Perfect Dark had even more--these were all incredibly well-crafted levels, all without even having <i>vertical motion</i>. No jumping--maybe some falling, but no jumping. These were games made to withstand the test of time--however, now I feel as though the more games come out, the shorter lifespans they will have because of the lack of crafting that goes into them past the "features and cool stuff" stage.
It's true that we have the capability to make our own maps and content for the games. However, in this gaming age, almost all good games run off of popular engines that have modding capabilities or have their own packaged editing software too--just take what you used to make the game, throw it in with the game--it's sort of the standard, now. Hell, even Dragon Age, a mind-blowingly expansive single player only adventure has tools to remake absolutely every single aspect of itself--they basically gave you a game creating <i>tool</i> with it. So now I feel that it's really important to ask the question, are game developers nowadays really delivering the content that we pay for?
<!--quoteo(post=1741158:date=Nov 28 2009, 05:31 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clare Torry sang the entire song 'Great Gig in the Sky' for Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side of the Moon'. She was paid £30 for it. In 2003 she said that her work constituted co-authorship and sued EMI. The courts agreed she was owed royalties for the album.
Would you tell her that she should shut up and just be "happy that she got to contribute"? Just because it was a great opportunity for her didn't change the fact that <u>she contributed to an album that was sold for profit</u>, and £30 was not fair compensation for that.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format? The interesting thing here is that when community stuff starts getting implemented, there's very real grounds for a lawsuit on these very grounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i bet if the album wasnt successful she wouldnt have bothered seeking compensation though. she accept 30 quid in the first place but when the thing went off she decided to ask for more. she should have asked fro royalties straight up. if they didnt accept, then take your song elsewhere.
<!--quoteo(post=1740899:date=Nov 27 2009, 05:35 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 27 2009, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have absolutely no interest in what <b>you</b> want. I have no use whatsoever for a design portfolio. And what's more, you can still get paid and put that in there, derp. If they're paying you for it, you can twist that to sound way more impressive than: Gave free stuff to whoever would take it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just disqualified yourself from any decent discussion. He gave a good answer and you say you dont care... well maybe you should argue only with yourself.
Edit: Plus the fact that UW will buy those maps makes this thread obsolete - as stated above.
<!--quoteo(post=1740873:date=Nov 27 2009, 05:55 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 27 2009, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the things that has always drove me nuts about TF2 was how few actual official maps it shipped with. Every update schedule since its launch, they've packed up some community maps that they liked and threw them in as semi-official ones. To the casual mouth-breathing idiot, this seems like a great idea - the maplist gets expanded with some maps that you know are good, and you no longer need to go hunting across the internet into whatever idiotic obscure corners and places people upload maps to.
However what I find wrong with this is that inevitably, every update cycle for TF2 produces ungodly volumes of attention that inevitably turns into raw sales. Effectively what is happening here is Valve is making mounds of cash off of your maps and compensating the map creator in only the most pathetic way possible. When I heard that NS2, for some ridiculous reason, was shipping with only four maps (or was it five? Who cares, anything less than nine or ten is sad) and was going to rely on community maps to populate it, this was the first thing to come to my mind. What are the ethics of producing maps (a vital component of any game) for free for a retail product? Where do you draw the line on this? Why not ship the game with a couple of low-poly models and let the community make some for you?
Inevitably my first response to any backlash to this is that people need to get out of the idea that this is a mod effort. This is a retail product they're expecting to make money and profit off of. If they're making money off of my work, strictly speaking I'm entitled compensation. It's just because the software world works in this ridiculous little niche of EULAs and TOSs that merely clicking 'Accept' allows people to bypass the law that companies can get away with it.
There was criticism of Infinity Ward when it was found out that in COD4 a multiplayer controllable AC-130 mod existed that was pretty much the entire concept lifted and put into MW2. How is that any different from the mentality that it's "okay" to make maps for free that ultimately translate to raw profit for someone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well screw you, I'd give my left testicle for having a map in NS2! even If the only way people would know I made it was by finding my name writtin in itty bitty tiny letters in an even smaller hidden room! :<
<!--quoteo(post=1740873:date=Nov 27 2009, 04:55 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 27 2009, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However what I find wrong with this is that inevitably, every update cycle for TF2 produces ungodly volumes of attention that inevitably turns into raw sales. Effectively what is happening here is Valve is making mounds of cash off of your maps and compensating the map creator in only the most pathetic way possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I know someone who got headhunted based off the TF2 map they made that was included in TF2. It's a win-win situation if you want a job in the industry. If a high-profile studio known for their quality gameplay chooses your work to be included in their game, it brings you to the attention of thousands of employers in an instant, better than any amount of CV applications could. Think about it: you're reaching out to people who make games through the games they play. There's no better advertisement than that.
<!--quoteo(post=1741186:date=Nov 28 2009, 09:20 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Nov 28 2009, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The portfolio is part testament to your ability to take a level design & creation project from start to completion, part a testament to your understanding and implementation of strong design and part proof that you can learn a new editor from scratch and are able to utilise such a technical piece of software.
That last bit is where your argument falls down. Many companies use their own proprietory tools which usually aren't in the public domain. Making levels for free using public domain tools is how you prove to these companies you are capable of familiarising yourself with their tech within a short timeframe. Getting paid for this or getting free portfolio advertising is icing on the cake. Exactly the same argument can be used for the medical profession. Would you let a doctor train on the job from scratch? No. Does a doctor get paid for spending 6 or more years of their life studying? In most cases, no.
Ultimately if you don't want to get paid for your hobby, then you can specify your work is not for redistribution as part of a commercial game. UWE can't steal your maps, so I don't see what the fuss is about.
I don't understand the OP's sentiment. You are creating content to be consumed by the audience of the commercial game, it will be seen as "part of the package" even if it is not directly presented to the userbase because people buying the game could be doing so with the idea that the game will have official and community support.
If you wanted to be paid for your efforts you can.
Some people do it to further their craft and improve their resume.
Others do it for free, perhaps as a hobby, for some internet notoriety.
If none of the above options appeal to you, then you shouldn't map or produce content for the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1741330:date=Nov 28 2009, 10:21 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 28 2009, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand the OP's sentiment. You are creating content to be consumed by the audience of the commercial game, it will be seen as "part of the package" even if it is not directly presented to the userbase because people buying the game could be doing so with the idea that the game will have official and community support.
If you wanted to be paid for your efforts you can.
Some people do it to further their craft and improve their resume.
Others do it for free, perhaps as a hobby, for some internet notoriety.
If none of the above options appeal to you, then you shouldn't map or produce content for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty good analysis.
Either you map because you like it, in which case you will probably want to do it anyway, and maybe get a job doing it if you can in which case you will do it for the experience until you do.
Alternatively you do it for money, in which case you should <i>get a job doing it</i> not demand random companies pay for it.
Mapping for everything you can and trying to make money by demanding people pay for it is not a very sound fiscal strategy.
Comments
I suspect any amateur mapper would feel honoured to have their maps included, without expecting any recompense. The kudos of having their name in lights in a published game would be enough for most.
By offering a payment, however small, UWE are saying thanks to the very people who helped make it such a fun game to start with. Even if the offer was a refund of the price of the game and perhaps a second free unlock code to give to a friend, i'd be happy !
Now while we're at it, how about a community generated library of components that could be incorporated into the maps for free - i'm getting a bit sick of seeing the welder in so many screenshots, and i'd like to see something else... tables, chairs, mobile tool chests, hospital beds, vehicles of all kinds, anything to vary the environment a bit.
There's a thread on art assets we'd like to see, UWE are looking over it for consideration... Although I kinda mentioned those things except vehicles (Except a small spacecraft) so I already saved you the hassle of that lol.
I try to think of UWE as a community enabler, not a company. I'm willing to pay for that community... because it fits a style, theme, complexity and social venue that I enjoy. So, I'm not only contributing to that but I'm doing something challenging, creative and personally rewarding. Of course, many will still always ask the essential question that destroys a community - "what's in it for me?". Just go play L4D/2 for a length of time and you'll discover exactly what a one way relationship with a game is like.
Also, please only use terms you understand, like communism or ethics, neither of which are really accurately used in your diatribe.
He loved making maps, and had made a ton before that. He probably would have done it for free, but they wanted to own it once it was done, so they paid him.
He then made a portfolio site and applied around. He was hired by Infinity Ward and is credited on both Modern Warfare titles as a level designer.
Sure, the map wasn't worth the 'profit', but he didn't do it for that. He did it for the love of mapping, with the bonus of looking great on his portfolio. I'm sure the extra $500 was appreciated, and it sure beats 'did it for free' on the resume.
Ethics be damned, you have to make a good map to have it go official. UWE might accept a payment of $1 for certain maps they want if the author is that pushy about it, but they WILL profit off of it so you might as well get your share and think of yourself as a real partner in the game.
My honest take on all this -
If your map is popular enough to get the developers attention, then most people probably play it. That leaves 2 choices, everyone can play it as an unoffical custom map, or you can get some money for it, add it to your resume if you are in the game industry, and get offical recongtion while everyone plays it. And after all, you can't make a map for NS and then sell it to Valve to use in TF2, so there is no reason to turn down UWE if the offer, unless the take too much creative control away
- sorry for any spelling errors, long day and a few beers
Very good custom maps which are played often and get huge attention will most likely be "bought" by the developer team - this happened in TF2 and CS and a couple of other games I'm sure. I don't see a problem when you're a talented mapper who knows the right cocktail for the perfect maplayout/design and get credited for your work.
Seeing his map to become official is imo the best that can happen to a mapper.
/e: as already mentioned by insane and dux - sorry i firstly posted then read :/
My honest take on all this -
If your map is popular enough to get the developers attention, then most people probably play it. That leaves 2 choices, everyone can play it as an unoffical custom map, or you can get some money for it, add it to your resume if you are in the game industry, and get offical recongtion while everyone plays it. And after all, you can't make a map for NS and then sell it to Valve to use in TF2, so there is no reason to turn down UWE if the offer, unless the take too much creative control away
- sorry for any spelling errors, long day and a few beers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Took me a second to realize you were talking about the original post, lol. You summarized it pretty well though.
To a degree, I suppose, but it's more like a "<b><u><i>WIN</i></u></b>-<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->win<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->" with respect to the company.
If companies like Valve are saving money by paying next to nothing for individual maps compared to the cost of a salaried map maker and given that your maps were good enough to impress them, it could be better - you could be in that salaried position making maps.
The Catch-22 of this is you get recognition for a map with the hope of getting that salaried position... but those positions are becoming more and more rare as companies simply fire the mapping staff and outsource it to what amounts to a sweatshop of amateurs in your community, save thousands of dollars, and pass the savings on to... their wallets.
Right. I'm sure when Clare Torry didn't receive any royalties for 'Dark Side of the Moon', you would just tell her 'Shut up and be happy that you got to contribute to the album'. Or any of the other MILLIONS of suits that have been filed over the years for everything from due compensation to patent and copyright infringement cases.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format?
Heh, I'm sorry but this really made me giggle.
Clare Torry sang the entire song 'Great Gig in the Sky' for Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side of the Moon'. She was paid £30 for it. In 2003 she said that her work constituted co-authorship and sued EMI. The courts agreed she was owed royalties for the album.
Would you tell her that she should shut up and just be "happy that she got to contribute"? Just because it was a great opportunity for her didn't change the fact that <u>she contributed to an album that was sold for profit</u>, and £30 was not fair compensation for that.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format? The interesting thing here is that when community stuff starts getting implemented, there's very real grounds for a lawsuit on these very grounds.
If companies like UWE and Valve are saving money by paying next to nothing for individual maps compared to the cost of a salaried map maker... well clearly they're coming out WAY ahead. And given that your maps were good enough to impress them, again, it could be better - you could be in that salaried position making maps.
The Catch-22 of this is, what is the point of having a map resume when it's becoming more and more popular to simply fire your mapping staff and use the community as a sweat-shop?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that's not how it works?
Valve do not fire their staff just to make money off the hard working community members they can oh so easily exploit. No if they didn't include maps from the community I think you'd find we'd still get the same amount of maps from Valve in an update.
Mapping is a very time consuming process, they can't just churn out good map after good map (I say good because making a crap map is obviously easy). Plus at the time they also had staff working on L4D2 and (Hopefully) HL2:EP3, now, L4D2 istself shipped with 23 maps all together, each analysed and play tested to death. To make them in the first place took some serious effort and time, but quality control would be just as gruelling.
The same thing applies to TF2, they didn't just throw out any map for an update, they put out maps that went through just as much building, tweaking and quality control. They added community maps on top of that to sure, maybe bulk the update, but to mainly acknowledge those talented individuals who put out some steller maps. What those individuals do with that is up to them, but most mappers who want to go into this career wise would add that to a portfolio and try to land their first job in the industry.
It really is the equivilant of doing voluntary work to earn experience for a paid position. Experience being essential here because every job section on the gaming company websites will usually have at least one position for 'Experienced environmental/level designer - Must have examples of previous work'. You can't get a paid position without being 'exploited' first.
If I wanted to do that, I'd point out that there are literally THOUSANDS of amateur mappers out there right now and that your odds of ending up in the game industry irrespective of your talent is slim to absolute none. I'd say most map makers have no illusions about doing it professionally. Of all the communities for all the different TC mods I've been in, I know of only three or four people who got jobs in the game industry, and I don't think any of them still have their jobs. And note that I said INDUSTRY; meaning the mapper didn't necessarily get a job mapping.
Would you tell her that she should shut up and just be "happy that she got to contribute"? Just because it was a great opportunity for her didn't change the fact that <u>she contributed to an album that was sold for profit</u>, and £30 was not fair compensation for that.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amazing, I'm listening to that album right now and it's one of my favourite songs.
But regardless, that's a really bad analogy for a video game. Map making is more akin to set design for a film or theatre.
Also you can always disagree to sell your map if you don't agree on the compensation, which we don't even know what that is yet. It's also perfectly possible UWE won't buy any of our maps because they consider them low standard, we really don't know yet and arguing for this is pointless.
If I wanted to do that, I'd point out that there are literally THOUSANDS of amateur mappers out there right now and that your odds of ending up in the game industry irrespective of your talent is slim to absolute none. I'd say most map makers have no illusions about doing it professionally. Of all the communities for all the different TC mods I've been in, I know of only three or four people who got jobs in the game industry, and I don't think any of them still have their jobs. And note that I said INDUSTRY; meaning the mapper didn't necessarily get a job mapping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I just don't understand your logic here and your unfounded statements such as:
<!--quoteo(post=1741152:date=Nov 28 2009, 07:29 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Catch-22 of this is you get recognition for a map with the hope of getting that salaried position... but those positions are becoming more and more rare as companies simply fire the mapping staff and outsource it to what amounts to a sweatshop of amateurs in your community, save thousands of dollars, and pass the savings on to... their wallets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You also don't seem to listen, as I said most level design positions ask for experience. Of course my chances of landing a job is significantly increased if I have proof that I'm not one of the thousands of amateur mappers, if I can prove I have talent, I can work to a schedule, I have experience with all of the different elements of game design including other areas not related to mapping then it's all fine, time to hunt for a paid position. Of course to put all of that proof into one nice fleshed out portfolio means doing a hell of a lot of things I wouldn't imagine getting paid for, such as making mods and designing levels and this is my point right here. <b>The reward for doing these things isn't short term money and if that's your goal you're out of luck. Whether it's not fair or wrong is your opinion, but the majority do this for fun and if you disagree with that you have a simple choice of not doing it. Get a job in championing artist's rights if you care so much.</b>
Someone give me one good reason as to why this quote doesn't make this thread obsolete?
Locking in 3... 2...
--Scythe--
"Sorry bud, we can't hire you before we know you're already experienced in the profession. And you can't be experienced unless you've worked for someone who won't hire you. So yeah, uh, come over here and shovel coal and fix pipes for a year or so for free - then we'll start paying you."
No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.
"Sorry bud, we can't hire you before we know you're already experienced in the profession. And you can't be experienced unless you've worked for someone who won't hire you. So yeah, uh, come over here and shovel coal and fix pipes for a year or so for free - then we'll start paying you."
No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No but see they do give us the tools to gain experience, it's why Valve and Epic release their map editors and modding tools free of charge for non commercial use and run occasional competitions with prize money in the range of $5000 to $10,000, plus recognition, which to me is worth more than money. They invest by allowing us to mess with their games and learn. It's why we all go to school right? To get a nice job. Should we be compensated for going to school? Usually we pay for that kind of education, I don't know about a Steel Mill, but try being a plumber or electrician without the neccessary training.
If my map gets into a ns2 release I would be happe due to a map wich i made for a game, that you have to own if you wanna play the map, and the map gets more popular then I could have expected and it would be a really great thing on my portfolio to have the words "released on the game natural selection 2".
Also UWE has stated they would buy maps, so I really don't feel it's wrong to get the community for such a thing.
For me as a level designer I see it as a great opportunity, not as a problem -_-
"Sorry bud, we can't hire you before we know you're already experienced in the profession. And you can't be experienced unless you've worked for someone who won't hire you. So yeah, uh, come over here and shovel coal and fix pipes for a year or so for free - then we'll start paying you."
No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a hobby and we do it for fun. Who works in the steel mills as a hobby?
If we get paid for it, it's something extra. Not that hard to understand.
Getting into the game industry <i>at all</i> is a difficult task, and keeping your job can be an even tougher one. Through my education and hard work as an aspiring environment artist I've been fortunate enough to work with industry professionals from studios like Robomodo, Raven Software, and gain insight from ex-EA employees who've gone freelance. If there's one thing I took from the many questions I've asked, it's that job stability is a rarity within the industry. But that's true of <i>every</i> position within the industry, not only level design.
I'd also like to point out that your portfolio is everything - if they can't see what you've done your resume and chances of a job will go straight in the trash.
I'm not sure I understand the argument within this thread. UWE released tools to the community to create maps, and should UWE find something they're interested in from any of the user-made maps they'll offer compensation to the creator to be placed into the game when it ships. That's a fair deal. Valve does it too. It's essentially what outsourcing is only far less official. What exactly is the problem? What am I missing here?
The idea that we're getting only 4 maps from UWE with NS2 comes as a bit of a surprise to me, but I feel like it's something that they can pull off well, considering that it only costs $20, is run by four people, and the Spark Editor is powerful enough to allow intermediate mappers make things that look almost professional (at least in appearance if not in gameplay and flow). For UWE, I think it's pretty acceptable--especially considering that I've felt that UWE really actually cares a lot about their customers and listens to feedback.
However, what I feel is a current issue is just the amount of play we get for our money; MW2 cost what, $60? It comes with approximately 10 maps, most of which I feel are unsatisfying plays; there's something about gameplay on them that just isn't "tight" enough for my tastes. There's a few maps that <i>no one</i> likes. Consider that in comparison to HL2:DM which has a whopping 7 pre-packaged levels, which while small, have really good level design; TF2 and CS:S have the same story. And you might say, well, they're designed nicely, and we can make maps for them, so what's the problem, right?
If we look at Rare, who made Goldeneye and Perfect Dark (I certainly hope many of you have played Perfect Dark--I'm sure most, if not all of you have played Goldeneye), we can see really quality time and work. Goldeneye had something like 15-20 levels, and if I recall correctly, Perfect Dark had even more--these were all incredibly well-crafted levels, all without even having <i>vertical motion</i>. No jumping--maybe some falling, but no jumping. These were games made to withstand the test of time--however, now I feel as though the more games come out, the shorter lifespans they will have because of the lack of crafting that goes into them past the "features and cool stuff" stage.
It's true that we have the capability to make our own maps and content for the games. However, in this gaming age, almost all good games run off of popular engines that have modding capabilities or have their own packaged editing software too--just take what you used to make the game, throw it in with the game--it's sort of the standard, now. Hell, even Dragon Age, a mind-blowingly expansive single player only adventure has tools to remake absolutely every single aspect of itself--they basically gave you a game creating <i>tool</i> with it. So now I feel that it's really important to ask the question, are game developers nowadays really delivering the content that we pay for?
Would you tell her that she should shut up and just be "happy that she got to contribute"? Just because it was a great opportunity for her didn't change the fact that <u>she contributed to an album that was sold for profit</u>, and £30 was not fair compensation for that.
Just because it's a video game, we should throw out the precedent of economics that has been set by every other media and art format? The interesting thing here is that when community stuff starts getting implemented, there's very real grounds for a lawsuit on these very grounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i bet if the album wasnt successful she wouldnt have bothered seeking compensation though. she accept 30 quid in the first place but when the thing went off she decided to ask for more. she should have asked fro royalties straight up. if they didnt accept, then take your song elsewhere.
You just disqualified yourself from any decent discussion. He gave a good answer and you say you dont care... well maybe you should argue only with yourself.
Edit: Plus the fact that UW will buy those maps makes this thread obsolete - as stated above.
However what I find wrong with this is that inevitably, every update cycle for TF2 produces ungodly volumes of attention that inevitably turns into raw sales. Effectively what is happening here is Valve is making mounds of cash off of your maps and compensating the map creator in only the most pathetic way possible. When I heard that NS2, for some ridiculous reason, was shipping with only four maps (or was it five? Who cares, anything less than nine or ten is sad) and was going to rely on community maps to populate it, this was the first thing to come to my mind. What are the ethics of producing maps (a vital component of any game) for free for a retail product? Where do you draw the line on this? Why not ship the game with a couple of low-poly models and let the community make some for you?
Inevitably my first response to any backlash to this is that people need to get out of the idea that this is a mod effort. This is a retail product they're expecting to make money and profit off of. If they're making money off of my work, strictly speaking I'm entitled compensation. It's just because the software world works in this ridiculous little niche of EULAs and TOSs that merely clicking 'Accept' allows people to bypass the law that companies can get away with it.
There was criticism of Infinity Ward when it was found out that in COD4 a multiplayer controllable AC-130 mod existed that was pretty much the entire concept lifted and put into MW2. How is that any different from the mentality that it's "okay" to make maps for free that ultimately translate to raw profit for someone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well screw you, I'd give my left testicle for having a map in NS2! even If the only way people would know I made it was by finding my name writtin in itty bitty tiny letters in an even smaller hidden room! :<
<!--quoteo(post=1741186:date=Nov 28 2009, 09:20 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Nov 28 2009, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, if experience is something the industry needs then they should view that as an investment and pay you to build the experience. In the end it's not you who'll profit from your accumulated experience it's the industry. Fair is fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The portfolio is part testament to your ability to take a level design & creation project from start to completion, part a testament to your understanding and implementation of strong design and part proof that you can learn a new editor from scratch and are able to utilise such a technical piece of software.
That last bit is where your argument falls down. Many companies use their own proprietory tools which usually aren't in the public domain. Making levels for free using public domain tools is how you prove to these companies you are capable of familiarising yourself with their tech within a short timeframe. Getting paid for this or getting free portfolio advertising is icing on the cake. Exactly the same argument can be used for the medical profession. Would you let a doctor train on the job from scratch? No. Does a doctor get paid for spending 6 or more years of their life studying? In most cases, no.
Ultimately if you don't want to get paid for your hobby, then you can specify your work is not for redistribution as part of a commercial game. UWE can't steal your maps, so I don't see what the fuss is about.
If you wanted to be paid for your efforts you can.
Some people do it to further their craft and improve their resume.
Others do it for free, perhaps as a hobby, for some internet notoriety.
If none of the above options appeal to you, then you shouldn't map or produce content for the game.
If you wanted to be paid for your efforts you can.
Some people do it to further their craft and improve their resume.
Others do it for free, perhaps as a hobby, for some internet notoriety.
If none of the above options appeal to you, then you shouldn't map or produce content for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty good analysis.
Either you map because you like it, in which case you will probably want to do it anyway, and maybe get a job doing it if you can in which case you will do it for the experience until you do.
Alternatively you do it for money, in which case you should <i>get a job doing it</i> not demand random companies pay for it.
Mapping for everything you can and trying to make money by demanding people pay for it is not a very sound fiscal strategy.