Boredom can definitely be an issue. It seems like <i>every</i> Terran goes MMM every time, literally. This forces Protoss to go Immortals every time. Zerg have a little more variety, as Roaches and Mutas are more effective against Protoss and Speedlings/Banelings are better against Terran. The downside for Zerg is that most of their high end units either suck (Infestor) or they're so high up and out of reach that you almost never see them (Broodlords).
After a boredom streak I've tried really crazy strategies and it's prolonging the life of the game but I'm tired of seeing the same exact strategies and units in every game.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
i've noticed that there really are not that many options.
terran can really only do the MMM ball, or i've seen rushing air works sometimes, but it has to be quick.
toss seems like either they have some more options, but it boils down to rushing DTs or immortals. i've seen some people try a mass zealot thing, but it never works.
with zerg you probably have the most options. i've seen mass bane/zergling, roaches, mutas. one thing i never see is hydras, but i've been going for hydras and it works surprisingly well, provided they don't rush you first.
<!--quoteo(post=1762674:date=Apr 4 2010, 10:55 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 4 2010, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Boredom can definitely be an issue. It seems like <i>every</i> Terran goes MMM every time, literally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The crazy thing about MMM is that it works on everything, if you got enough Marine as Marauders to counter ground and air units. I know many former Protoss-players who switched to Terran because of nerfs in every single patch since patch 1. They find Protoss the weakest, and so do i. Marauders should be nerfed, at least about the slowdown they are doing. Although i find Zerg the most OP because of the many varies and tech. The tech to warp Dark Templars is ridiculous and High Templars Psionic Storm is not even half of it's power in StarCraft 1 so i don't find the use of both of these units.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
you have smart casting now, so you can't compare radius of aoe between SC1 and SC2. I'm guessing sentry forcefield will be nerfed soon too.
I also agree that M&M is just too damn useful to skip as first build. 99% of marines you meet are doing it.
The only option I have as protoss is colossus with sentries and stalkers and try to wipe them from the high ground. I also bring an observer to spot them if they are on the high ground... but the problem is you really have to hope they don't rush because it isn't really an effective counter in terms of cost... if they build 4 marine and 4 marauders they can really tear you up with an early rush because your initial zealots are useless against marauder slow.
Against zerg I've resorted to cheese... I build a funnel at choke and guard it with zealots while teching to voids really quickly and then go straight to base and kill queen or spire or hydra warren and it's gg.. because if they get mutas early, they can harass all my supply lines faster than I can protect them.
I'm starting to get a little better than an epileptic tight-rope walker. I've fought my way up from copper to the top 1/3 of my bronze league and reckon I can push into silver if I keep up my recent form.
<!--quoteo(post=1762757:date=Apr 5 2010, 06:11 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Apr 5 2010, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read it everywhere but somehow I have missed the meaning of terran "MMM". What is it? Mass Marine...Massing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines, Marauders, Medvacs. As a heavy terran player, it is what I use too. Especially what puzl said about pumping out 4 or so of each quickly and heading in. It works wonders. I've recently tried a few games of skimping on the marines/marauders and heading to banshee's/those anti air units but if the other player pushes at all, you will die forcing you back to using MMM.
That's why you wall off if you go banshees right? But yeah MMM is a pretty annoying strat because it's not hard to execute and just as strong as most other unit combinations untill tier 3.
<!--quoteo(post=1762757:date=Apr 5 2010, 03:11 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Apr 5 2010, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read it everywhere but somehow I have missed the meaning of terran "MMM". What is it? Mass Marine...Massing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't seen you in-game much. Are you playing at all? :o
Yeah, MMM is definitely an auto pilot win if you're in the lower leagues. I'm only ranked Silver, so I'm about average, and if the player is of equal or lesser skill I have an okay chance at countering MMM. It boils down to getting 2 immortals out ASAP, along with 4 Stalkers, a handful of zealots (3 or 4), and if possible throw in a Sentry. You then have to do a timing push and hit the Terran before the MMM becomes too big as your 2 Immortals will really be hard for the Terran to take down. The biggest problem with this strategy is that you can't get an observer so on the off chance they're going banshee, you're screwed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have smart casting now, so you can't compare radius of aoe between SC1 and SC2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno. Psi Storm takes a <i>ridiculous</i> amount of tech, money, and time to get (2 specific buildings, and 1 research, costing 500m/500g total) and the High Temps have to wait ~20 seconds before they can even cast Psi Storm after spawning in. The damage has been reduced from SC1, the radius has been significantly reduced, and because of the improved AI it is very easy to micro out of. A ghost (needing only 1 specific building 150m/50g and no additional research) can completely render your HT useless in a PvT. I've watched a lot of games and played maybe around 150ish. I've used HT's once and seen them used twice in replays. It's like they're nonexistent. HT's do have their use against Zerg, but their role overlaps with the Colossus which many players consider to be a more versatile and useful unit.
I just read that and it really sounds like I'm whining but HT's are just so costly and so useless. They're like how Thor's use to be before the latest patch. It would be like if the Zerg had to intentionally tech to Infestors. We'd never see them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tech to warp Dark Templars is ridiculous and High Templars Psionic Storm is not even half of it's power in StarCraft 1 so i don't find the use of both of these units.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DT's haven't changed much from SC1 but they do come out much later. One strategy I've been using is to research hallucination (a Sentry ability), tech to DT's, hallucinate 3 Void Rays, drop DT's in an enemy base, and have the hallucinations attack whatever the DT's attack. DT's kill things fairly quick and the only give away is the sound of the DT's attacking which may be missed over the Void Ray's attack sound.
<!--quoteo(post=1762768:date=Apr 5 2010, 03:33 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 5 2010, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem with this strategy is that you can't get an observer so on the off chance they're going banshee, you're screwed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're already going for immortals, why don't you get an observer first? Also, get more stalkers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno. Psi Storm takes a <i>ridiculous</i> amount of tech, money, and time to get (2 specific buildings, and 1 research, costing 500m/500g total) and the High Temps have to wait ~20 seconds before they can even cast Psi Storm after spawning in. The damage has been reduced from SC1, the radius has been significantly reduced, and because of the improved AI it is very easy to micro out of. A ghost (needing only 1 specific building 150m/50g and no additional research) can completely render your HT useless in a PvT. I've watched a lot of games and played maybe around 150ish. I've used HT's once and seen them used twice in replays. It's like they're nonexistent. HT's do have their use against Zerg, but their role overlaps with the Colossus which many players consider to be a more versatile and useful unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Upgrading their starting energy allows them to cast instantly once they're built. 2) Due to the "improved" pathing AI, units are much more clumped together so storm is actually a crap ton more effective. 3) Loads of people use HT, especially vs M&M. Try feedbacking Ghosts if they're a problem, or just not getting caught by EMP.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Loads of people use HT, especially vs M&M. Try feedbacking Ghosts if they're a problem, or just not getting caught by EMP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trying to feedback a ghost in a huge MMM ball is extremely difficult especially when the EMP is AOE, casted from a potentially cloaked unit, and takes the Terran player virtually no micro to pull off. Plus, that feedback is probably better served on the medivac. Storm can be decent, no doubt, but I just think it's countered too easily by EMP.
What's your league? I'm only Silver. From my experiences (learning all three, to playing random, and I'm now trying to get "better than average with all 3 races" starting with protoss) the Ghost has been an overpowered unit against Toss. EMP is so ridiculously strong against Protoss that I'd be surprised if it went retail in this form. EMP is the hard counter to HT's (energy), Immortals (removes shield), Mothership (removes shields,uncloaks, and drains all energy), and Dark Templar (uncloaks). That's just too much in my opinion. HT's with Storm reward/cost ratio is too high against Protoss.
<!--quoteo(post=1763058:date=Apr 7 2010, 09:59 AM:name=pallie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pallie @ Apr 7 2010, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->every pro replay I've seen goes for psistorming the units
How to beat a lot of roaches with ground units? :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i would guess
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
immortals definitely work against roaches and hydras. The problem is you need top notch scouting because immortals are useless against mutalisks and you're only option then is to switch to mass stalkers while you tech an alternative scout.
i am soo sick of this ladder system. i was in plat before last patch. but 5 placement matches with 3 people who cheezed me now im in copper....now..im in 1st 24/7 in my copper league with 1350 points with 75 wins and i still have not got moved up to another league..soo damn fustrating.!!!
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Promotions seem to be happening though.. there were 98 people in my copper ladder at one point and now there are 89. Is there another way we could have lost 9 players?
FWIW us noobs are having to deal with your pain too. I'm meeting some incredibly skilled players in my copper ranking at times.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
I change my previous statement: Any one in the top X% with a minimum of Y Games MUST be transferred to the next league to stop people from intentionally sitting in lower leagues.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
tell me about it :(
at times I get so frustrated I think "feck this I'll just play terran", but I'm sort of expecting that i'm suffering from a "grass is greener on the other side" situation more than anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1763109:date=Apr 7 2010, 12:36 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Apr 7 2010, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tell me about it :(
at times I get so frustrated I think "feck this I'll just play terran", but I'm sort of expecting that i'm suffering from a "grass is greener on the other side" situation more than anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its funny i think toss is easier to play then terran. cuz every time i have used them in 1v1 i have won. it seems like that i guess. but overall its balanced.
I also found Toss to be easier to play than Terran and found myself winning more games as them. However, It's been a while since i last logged on due to family issues and i suck so badly at this game it probably was beginners luck.
It's not the early build orders and expansion that seem hard to me but keeping up with others tech level is. I can get a few early stalkers and zealots out and deal with early rushes, and i can set up a secondary resource base, but once thats all good and done it only takes a very short amount of time before my opponent out techs me and destroys me.
<!--quoteo(post=1763112:date=Apr 7 2010, 12:45 PM:name=Nossah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nossah @ Apr 7 2010, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also found Toss to be easier to play than Terran and found myself winning more games as them. However, It's been a while since i last logged on due to family issues and i suck so badly at this game it probably was beginners luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
game really does have a pretty big learning curve or atleast for new players to the RTS scene. dont feel bad that you suck, just practice. my cousin was down right terrible 2 weeks ago. now the kid is a force. He did alot of work researching strats and build orders and watching streams live.
Just takes allitle more effort then the ez games of today ..like world of warcraft.
I thought NS had a huge learning curve when i first started to play..well it did. I enjoyed learning the game from top to bottom. alot of people just give up after they say its too hard.
I can't help but think of the phrase "easy to learn, hard to master." "Easy to learn" comes first. And yes, I defended Dwarf Fortress. The irony does not escape me. :P
Comments
After a boredom streak I've tried really crazy strategies and it's prolonging the life of the game but I'm tired of seeing the same exact strategies and units in every game.
terran can really only do the MMM ball, or i've seen rushing air works sometimes, but it has to be quick.
toss seems like either they have some more options, but it boils down to rushing DTs or immortals. i've seen some people try a mass zealot thing, but it never works.
with zerg you probably have the most options. i've seen mass bane/zergling, roaches, mutas. one thing i never see is hydras, but i've been going for hydras and it works surprisingly well, provided they don't rush you first.
The crazy thing about MMM is that it works on everything, if you got enough Marine as Marauders to counter ground and air units.
I know many former Protoss-players who switched to Terran because of nerfs in every single patch since patch 1. They find Protoss the weakest, and so do i.
Marauders should be nerfed, at least about the slowdown they are doing.
Although i find Zerg the most OP because of the many varies and tech.
The tech to warp Dark Templars is ridiculous and High Templars Psionic Storm is not even half of it's power in StarCraft 1 so i don't find the use of both of these units.
I also agree that M&M is just too damn useful to skip as first build. 99% of marines you meet are doing it.
The only option I have as protoss is colossus with sentries and stalkers and try to wipe them from the high ground. I also bring an observer to spot them if they are on the high ground... but the problem is you really have to hope they don't rush because it isn't really an effective counter in terms of cost... if they build 4 marine and 4 marauders they can really tear you up with an early rush because your initial zealots are useless against marauder slow.
Against zerg I've resorted to cheese... I build a funnel at choke and guard it with zealots while teching to voids really quickly and then go straight to base and kill queen or spire or hydra warren and it's gg.. because if they get mutas early, they can harass all my supply lines faster than I can protect them.
I'm starting to get a little better than an epileptic tight-rope walker. I've fought my way up from copper to the top 1/3 of my bronze league and reckon I can push into silver if I keep up my recent form.
Marines, Marauders, Medvacs. As a heavy terran player, it is what I use too. Especially what puzl said about pumping out 4 or so of each quickly and heading in. It works wonders. I've recently tried a few games of skimping on the marines/marauders and heading to banshee's/those anti air units but if the other player pushes at all, you will die forcing you back to using MMM.
I haven't seen you in-game much. Are you playing at all? :o
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have smart casting now, so you can't compare radius of aoe between SC1 and SC2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno. Psi Storm takes a <i>ridiculous</i> amount of tech, money, and time to get (2 specific buildings, and 1 research, costing 500m/500g total) and the High Temps have to wait ~20 seconds before they can even cast Psi Storm after spawning in. The damage has been reduced from SC1, the radius has been significantly reduced, and because of the improved AI it is very easy to micro out of. A ghost (needing only 1 specific building 150m/50g and no additional research) can completely render your HT useless in a PvT. I've watched a lot of games and played maybe around 150ish. I've used HT's once and seen them used twice in replays. It's like they're nonexistent. HT's do have their use against Zerg, but their role overlaps with the Colossus which many players consider to be a more versatile and useful unit.
I just read that and it really sounds like I'm whining but HT's are just so costly and so useless. They're like how Thor's use to be before the latest patch. It would be like if the Zerg had to intentionally tech to Infestors. We'd never see them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tech to warp Dark Templars is ridiculous and High Templars Psionic Storm is not even half of it's power in StarCraft 1 so i don't find the use of both of these units.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DT's haven't changed much from SC1 but they do come out much later. One strategy I've been using is to research hallucination (a Sentry ability), tech to DT's, hallucinate 3 Void Rays, drop DT's in an enemy base, and have the hallucinations attack whatever the DT's attack. DT's kill things fairly quick and the only give away is the sound of the DT's attacking which may be missed over the Void Ray's attack sound.
If you're already going for immortals, why don't you get an observer first? Also, get more stalkers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno. Psi Storm takes a <i>ridiculous</i> amount of tech, money, and time to get (2 specific buildings, and 1 research, costing 500m/500g total) and the High Temps have to wait ~20 seconds before they can even cast Psi Storm after spawning in. The damage has been reduced from SC1, the radius has been significantly reduced, and because of the improved AI it is very easy to micro out of. A ghost (needing only 1 specific building 150m/50g and no additional research) can completely render your HT useless in a PvT. I've watched a lot of games and played maybe around 150ish. I've used HT's once and seen them used twice in replays. It's like they're nonexistent. HT's do have their use against Zerg, but their role overlaps with the Colossus which many players consider to be a more versatile and useful unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Upgrading their starting energy allows them to cast instantly once they're built.
2) Due to the "improved" pathing AI, units are much more clumped together so storm is actually a crap ton more effective.
3) Loads of people use HT, especially vs M&M. Try feedbacking Ghosts if they're a problem, or just not getting caught by EMP.
Trying to feedback a ghost in a huge MMM ball is extremely difficult especially when the EMP is AOE, casted from a potentially cloaked unit, and takes the Terran player virtually no micro to pull off. Plus, that feedback is probably better served on the medivac. Storm can be decent, no doubt, but I just think it's countered too easily by EMP.
What's your league? I'm only Silver. From my experiences (learning all three, to playing random, and I'm now trying to get "better than average with all 3 races" starting with protoss) the Ghost has been an overpowered unit against Toss. EMP is so ridiculously strong against Protoss that I'd be surprised if it went retail in this form. EMP is the hard counter to HT's (energy), Immortals (removes shield), Mothership (removes shields,uncloaks, and drains all energy), and Dark Templar (uncloaks). That's just too much in my opinion. HT's with Storm reward/cost ratio is too high against Protoss.
Btw, these two tricks are awesome:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SCRVrypnPs&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SCRVrypnPs...feature=related</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrDemA_6xsw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrDemA_6xsw</a>
How to beat a lot of roaches with ground units? :/
How to beat a lot of roaches with ground units? :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would guess
mass maurauder
get immortals
get your own roaches
If you are ranked in the top x% you should have the option to switch to the next highest league.
FWIW us noobs are having to deal with your pain too. I'm meeting some incredibly skilled players in my copper ranking at times.
Any one in the top X% with a minimum of Y Games MUST be transferred to the next league to stop people from intentionally sitting in lower leagues.
mass maurauder
get immortals
get your own roaches<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But immortals are like 2.5 times more expensive :(
emp > immortals :D
love the emp soo much vs toss
at times I get so frustrated I think "feck this I'll just play terran", but I'm sort of expecting that i'm suffering from a "grass is greener on the other side" situation more than anything.
at times I get so frustrated I think "feck this I'll just play terran", but I'm sort of expecting that i'm suffering from a "grass is greener on the other side" situation more than anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its funny i think toss is easier to play then terran. cuz every time i have used them in 1v1 i have won. it seems like that i guess. but overall its balanced.
It's not the early build orders and expansion that seem hard to me but keeping up with others tech level is. I can get a few early stalkers and zealots out and deal with early rushes, and i can set up a secondary resource base, but once thats all good and done it only takes a very short amount of time before my opponent out techs me and destroys me.
game really does have a pretty big learning curve or atleast for new players to the RTS scene. dont feel bad that you suck, just practice. my cousin was down right terrible 2 weeks ago. now the kid is a force. He did alot of work researching strats and build orders and watching streams live.
Just takes allitle more effort then the ez games of today ..like world of warcraft.
I thought NS had a huge learning curve when i first started to play..well it did. I enjoyed learning the game from top to bottom. alot of people just give up after they say its too hard.