Team Collisions?
Voyager I
Join Date: 2009-11-02 Member: 69222Members
Join Date: 2009-11-02 Member: 69222Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Keeping Boosting; Killing Blocking</div>Team collisions were one of the more annoying parts of NS (being stuck behind slow teammates, losing lifeforms to accidental blocks, etc.), yet at the same time they opened up a number of tactical opportunities with boosting and Skulkevators. In a perfect world, we would be able to preserve the beneficial aspects of team collisions while removing the frustrating elements. So, here's my go at making NS2 a better place.
<b>In general, implement Team Fortress 2/Left 4 Dead style team collisions.</b>
If you haven't played either game, teammates have a gentle "nudge" effect rather than full collisions. You can pass through each other without a problem, but if you attempt to stand in the same spot then you will smoothly bump each other aside until you're no longer overlapping. It works quite well in general gameplay; teammates are no longer obstructions, but the only way to stack is to find a corner and continuously back into it (which is useless in TF2 and only can only be abused in L4D due to circumstances unlikely to apply to Natural Selection). This is simple enough and relieves a great deal of annoyance, but it also means no more team boosting.
Trying to keep boosting makes things a little more complicated, and I'm honestly not sure how well this would work in practice so if you have other ideas then I'd bee happy to hear about them.
<b>Implement "Special Collisions" for boosting and Skulkevators.</b>
Put simply, make special cases in team collision specifically to enable these tactics.
<b>1.</b> The tops and bottoms of Marine collision boxes should be solid to each other. Marines can walk through each other, but if you jump on someone's head he will be solid. Obviously, this should only apply to the <i>outside</i> of the collision boxes, so if you end up overlapping you won't get stuck on each other.
<b>2.</b> Make the bottom of Gorge collision boxes solid to Skulks (again, only from the outside; a Skulk passing through a Gorge from the top shouldn't notice a thing)
Just looking at them, it doesn't seem like they would be likely to cause problems, but you never really know until you've seen it in practice and it might be harder to implement than I realize. And yes, Marines will block each other on Ladders, but I've rarely had a problem with that even in NS1 so I'm not especially worried.
So, what say ye?
<b>In general, implement Team Fortress 2/Left 4 Dead style team collisions.</b>
If you haven't played either game, teammates have a gentle "nudge" effect rather than full collisions. You can pass through each other without a problem, but if you attempt to stand in the same spot then you will smoothly bump each other aside until you're no longer overlapping. It works quite well in general gameplay; teammates are no longer obstructions, but the only way to stack is to find a corner and continuously back into it (which is useless in TF2 and only can only be abused in L4D due to circumstances unlikely to apply to Natural Selection). This is simple enough and relieves a great deal of annoyance, but it also means no more team boosting.
Trying to keep boosting makes things a little more complicated, and I'm honestly not sure how well this would work in practice so if you have other ideas then I'd bee happy to hear about them.
<b>Implement "Special Collisions" for boosting and Skulkevators.</b>
Put simply, make special cases in team collision specifically to enable these tactics.
<b>1.</b> The tops and bottoms of Marine collision boxes should be solid to each other. Marines can walk through each other, but if you jump on someone's head he will be solid. Obviously, this should only apply to the <i>outside</i> of the collision boxes, so if you end up overlapping you won't get stuck on each other.
<b>2.</b> Make the bottom of Gorge collision boxes solid to Skulks (again, only from the outside; a Skulk passing through a Gorge from the top shouldn't notice a thing)
Just looking at them, it doesn't seem like they would be likely to cause problems, but you never really know until you've seen it in practice and it might be harder to implement than I realize. And yes, Marines will block each other on Ladders, but I've rarely had a problem with that even in NS1 so I'm not especially worried.
So, what say ye?
Comments
btw, how would this work with the enemy? If two heavies block a doorway and a fade can nudge them aside to get through, then it ruins that aspect of game play. Blocking is a great strategy for anyone willing to put their neck on the line.
Personally, I like the blocking. It was rarely annoying for me in NS1. I especially like it when fades that fly in and out (hit and run cowards) bump into each other and the retreating fade gets killed. That's bad teamwork.
If you're coming from a 6v6 background, I'd imagine not. However, I play in the larger pubs that are available now and will probably be the mainstream for NS2, and while it's not a gamebreaker, teammate obstructions are a near-constant annoyance.
And Battle-Bug, maybe I'm just not old-fashioned enough, but I generally view teammates accidentally ###### each other over as a <i>bad</i> thing. Stop raging about Aliens and think about it from their perspective for once.
same with focusedwolf and tha
I'd really like to see at least marines having solid collision. In earlier discussions there was a lot of worry expressed on how the alien melee system works when marines are clipping through each other like crazy. You'll land 2 bites on one only to get him replaced by a fresh marine running right through the first one. In general the human shielding is such an essential part of skulking that I'd really hate to see it go.
As for the aliens I could live with smoother collisions than NS1 had. I'd appreciate some slowdown, but it's probably not necessary to kill the whole speed on collisions.
If nothing else though, I'd like to be able to support a Fade as a Gorge without accidentally cockblocking him during a critical escape, and it's a pain getting a group of Skulks through a hallway when only half of them are trying to hop.
If nothing else though, I'd like to be able to support a Fade as a Gorge without accidentally cockblocking him during a critical escape, and it's a pain getting a group of Skulks through a hallway when only half of them are trying to hop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I think high speed collisions with blinking fades and leaping skulks should only cause a slight slowdown for them. Something similar for onoses too, maybe even make their legs have separate collision boxes that allow skulks, gorges and lerks to move under the onos' belly. Giving onoses some pushback power doesn't sound like a bad idea either, although that kinda causes trouble for fleeing fades and such again.
I'd still like to have the element there so that I can improve it in my gameplay, but it doesn't have to be anything as critical as it is now.
Also: I vote no. Never. Don't break what is working fine. Full collision in a team game requires you pay attention to the situation and don't do anything stupid. If your team is doing a full on rush, don't stop, just rush. It doesn't matter if you die, thats not the point of the rush. If someone in front of you is doing hit and runs, don't plop yourself down behind him and then casually sit there blocking the door as he runs in bites the chair and attempts to run out. Pay Attention.
NS2s hallways likely won't be very small anyways. They're likely big enough to have 3-4 marines walk through side by side and Vents give you a tactical advantage of being able to shoot one opponent at a time. If a bunch of marines are are hiding in a vent they definitely shouldn't all be looking in the same direction. Some cover the front (there would likely be room to shoot over the shoulder of the person infront of you) and some cover the back and move as a unit.
If someone is being a smacktard and attempting to block you, vote kick or get an admin, and problem solved. We don't need a collision system that will create numerous glitches/bugs (for example, a Skulk bite doing damage to more than one marine because their collision hulls are inside of eachother.).
TF2 has no team collision because it would simply ruin gameplay. It is a strategic game but its focus is simply more on the over-the-top humor and cartoony feel than the actual strategic battles that NS2 will likely include due to the RTS aspect it includes. L4D likely has no team collisions either because it too would ruin the core gameplay mechanics and make things far too difficult. I believe NS2 needs to feel solid and grounded, and adding rubber-band collision will detract from that greatly, not to mention the numerous gameplay issues and bugs that were already hinted at.
Also Also: The only real problem I've had with blocking team mates is on ladders... but aren't ladders non-existant in NS2 anyways?
No raging here. I just view the annoyance of blocking more of a clumsiness issue than a game structure issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1756934:date=Mar 4 2010, 12:32 AM:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xmaine @ Mar 4 2010, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All of battle bug's post are marine biased.
same with focusedwolf and tha<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That post doesn't help this thread any. I do play a lot of marines and most of my suggestions concern them, but I have plenty of alien suggestions, most of which I have yet to post. Many of you are alien biased, but I don't hold it against you. We're a two-party system. We need people on both sides to properly think things through.
Anyways, I'm with Dalin Seivewright on this one. I rarely say this, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Surely, it is a skill not to run into objects, mobile or not. The "luck kills" for marines are simply bad teamwork, poor coordination, and low dodging skills.
It doesn't really happen like that, though does it? 99% of the time you'll die while going round a corner, unable to know if a skulk is coming through or not.
Thinking about it, though, it shouldn't be in-game because stacking + melee really doesnt work, for both sides.
...
As for the aliens I could live with smoother collisions than NS1 had. I'd appreciate some slowdown, but it's probably not necessary to kill the whole speed on collisions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it almost never comes up in NS1 is because the maps were built with passages wide enough to not be an issue most of the time. Almost all passages could fit an Onos comfortably (except vents and ladders), which means two HAs could also almost stand side-by-side. Most allowed basic Marines to be 3 wide and not have to be forced against a wall.
Basically, with intelligent map design and not narrow doorways, you're typically A-OK in terms of collisions. See Insurgency (maybe they fixed it) where they DON'T have this and doorways are almost exactly as wide as a player model. PAIN trying to leave spawn.
Typically the only issue was large creatures that took up the entire hallway getting blocked. See Onos vs Gorge. Later addressed by trying to let Charge have pushback, except that it's a Hive3 power....
That being said, it's not a bad idea overall. Just body block for enemy team and gentle nudge/push system for same team. But prevent vertical (i.e. body block vertically) to allow people to stand on top of each other. Intelligent coding of course to prevent pushing causing clipping into walls. A modification to cause a bit (or a lot) of slowdown as you pass through buddies would be welcome so that you don't just warp through your buddy Onos to save your life.
That's the main issue why I don't give 100% support. The Onos now has a protective giant shield and HUGE hitbox, so is supposed to block the corridor and provide cover for his advancing hoarde. How do you deal with Aliens warping through that? Seems silly to pop out of the middle of the Ono's head.
You forgot that tasty movement prediction, which blocks you kinda twice in one situation, if you are playing with higher pings.
<!--quoteo(post=1757197:date=Mar 5 2010, 05:25 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 5 2010, 05:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason it almost never comes up in NS1 is because the maps were built with passages wide enough to not be an issue most of the time. Almost all passages could fit an Onos comfortably (except vents and ladders), which means two HAs could also almost stand side-by-side. Most allowed basic Marines to be 3 wide and not have to be forced against a wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we mention 32 player pubs, we also have to mention the usual ######maps (gameplay-wise, no offense) that get voted on those servers and only provide these wide passages to some extend.
I can understand if balance necessitates that kind of cluster######, but don't try to tell me it's not annoying to deal with.
Can we at least all agree that blinking around a corner and stonewalling because your ankles clipped a bouncing Gorge needs to go?
You have an interesting point. What if a bunch of aliens are trying to destroy a structure? If they don't block each other 100%, then more of them can bunch together around the structure. I'm imagining collision meshes inside each other, making an unfair advantage because their collision mesh is now shielded by another. That sounds like it could get abused with some teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=1756934:date=Mar 4 2010, 04:32 PM:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xmaine @ Mar 4 2010, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All of battle bug's post are marine biased.
same with focusedwolf and tha<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do one thread about equipment suggestions for marines and im suddenly marine biased?
Leave that stuff for private messages. It has nothing to do with this or any thread.
Here's a question for those of you who are frustrated that you're blocked as a fade by other fades. Are you both crouching when you run into each other? Crouching would be an easy way to reduce the odds of a collision.
Here's a question for those of you who are frustrated that you're blocked as a fade by other fades. Are you both crouching when you run into each other? Crouching would be an easy way to reduce the odds of a collision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter question: have you ever played Aliens?
Still, I think leave no ally collisions to a mod, because collisions are much rarer in 6s which is the focus anyways, and a huge tactic when using it for gorge boosting and stuff.
I obviously wasn't talking about vents since blocking should be 100% in those tight spaces. Also, small doorways and tunnels have a cross sectional <b>area </b>of around 4-16 crouched fades. That's plenty.
I've played aliens and I don't remember ever having more problems with blocking than I do on marines. Also, I blame myself or the teammate for these and don't find anything wrong with the game. I believe NS1 had it right.
An alternate solution to the problem (that is an extreme and completely out of the question) is the realism of having two aliens knock each other over, spin them around, and knock them on their rears like a real collision of two objects going 10-40mph. The other extreme is no collisions period. (I'm not suggesting anything. I'm just pointing out the extremities)
Extremities Graph (in my opinion):
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No collisions<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->--<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Reduced Team Collision Hitbox<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->--<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->NS1 Collisions<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->---------------------------------<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Realistic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->X<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->------------<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->X<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->--------------------------------<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->X<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-------------------------------------------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->X<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
See how close the reduction in team collisions is to the TF2 (No) collisions and how close to the middle are the NS1 collisions?
Secondly, while I agree that blocking is almost negligible in 6v6 competitive (less players, more likely to be evenly skilled, better players in general), blocking is definitely a source of frustration in big public games. An ally-only nudge effect is a <i>very</i> good idea. It'd be very easy to keep the team-based aspects of collisions available through no-collision zones and the problem bacillus puts forward that a skulk might land bites on different marines won't exist if you can't actually pass through allies. You should definitely not be able to push an ally by repeatedly running in to him obviously. A relatively small movement-slowing effect on impact retains both the incentive to avoid collisions in general and the advantage given to marines by poor alien control so the only change to gameplay being made is the reduction of fatal bouts of poor luck. Teamwork is not reduced in any way whatsoever and its hard to see why removing the possibility of a team-blocked fade death changing the entire course of the game would be a bad thing.
Regarding potential exploits, I can't really see any. Squeezing more aliens around a structure is marginally beneficial and only when there isn't friendly fire. Fitting more aliens into a corridor doesn't pose any foreseeable problems really. Regarding realism, well...
Then you never play games...
The Last example is bad company 2, some player can block the door and you are just traped...if you not shoot the wall with a RL, GL or Grenade.
And in NS1 a lot of stupid player had fun to block a players, most time skulks block other or the other aliens block the onos to death.
Here is some example of a retard.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMkLWWmIqrU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMkLWWmIqrU</a>
The Last example is bad company 2, some player can block the door and you are just traped...if you not shoot the wall with a RL, GL or Grenade.
And in NS1 a lot of stupid player had fun to block a players, most time skulks block other or the other aliens block the onos to death.
Here is some example of a retard.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMkLWWmIqrU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMkLWWmIqrU</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection tends to have large doorways, so it would take more than one player to block you. That would be intentional.
If a skulk can block something, then we're probably talking a vent. Vents that small are only big enough for one skulk to fit through (stating the obvious). I don't believe that two objects should be able to share the same space, so I support this form of blocking.
As far as your video goes, I don't believe in my 8 years of playing NS that I've seen a weird block like that happen. I'm sure it did once or twice and I've forgotten, but that tells me that it's not a big problem. Also, that Onos wasn't blocked to death in that video, like you suggested might happen. Instead, he still killed two marines and lived.
That's not universally true. It's a map design choice, and most of the vents from NS1 are wide enough for skulks/lerks/fades to pass each other. However, there are certain vents that are very restrictive and only open up wide enough at certain points, or are so short most don't care (until you really, really badly need to run through there and are blocked by a gorge).
Intentional blockers are just jerks, but if we leave in HL1 collision, mappers will naturally build wider corridors when they want to let people pass each other easily, and restrict when necessary. Most "modern tactical" shooters need the non-blocking since their doorways are built to scale, which only fit ~1 person side-by-side, and thus are easily blocked. Yay being a sci-fi arcade-ish shooter, we don't care!
It's not necessary to make two entities capable of sharing the same space to address the problem either. I agree that it would be crap if you could stack aliens on top of eachother for obvious reasons. You only have to implement a small nudge feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1758839:date=Mar 11 2010, 03:26 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 11 2010, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as your video goes, I don't believe in my 8 years of playing NS that I've seen a weird block like that happen. I'm sure it did once or twice and I've forgotten, but that tells me that it's not a big problem. Also, that Onos wasn't blocked to death in that video, like you suggested might happen. Instead, he still killed two marines and lived.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen that kind of block hundreds of times and I rarely play combat. More importantly though, the fact that you think that video was posted to show a lerk blocking an onos is truly scary.