You're being a busy bee I can tell. Really shows the differences between pub and competitive play to a pubber like me. Only problem I had while watching was I couldn't really hear much because I was blowing my vuvuzela constantly. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1776225:date=Jun 26 2010, 08:23 PM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Jun 26 2010, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vuvuzelas should be banned ;)
Here we go for the S13 closings (the "brackets"). Starting with the Division 1 teams, we have as semifinals U GO? vs. takeOver:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enfzgg53aaA&feature=PlayList&p=9D4559CB49726681&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enfzgg53aaA...&playnext=1</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very good, If you lack anything say (did not seems to be the case) you can always explain what are to be expected from lifeforms, how the upgrades effect the game (on hive rush for example), whether if certain tactic is balanced, defensive, offensive. Timings too whether hive/xxx/xxx is fast or slow, how will losing rts affect aliens or marines etc. Many things that are not obvious for new or non-competitive players.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
I am trying my best, TrC. But I lack input. If there's some non-competitive gamers watching this, please tell me if the tactic coverage, which I generally try to do, helps. Too much? Too less?
Also, I played a bit with the channel design. Maybe a dev can tell me if it's ok to use NS2 arts for backgrounds? I already put some in :)
I hate seeing the Map and Scoreboard, especially the Scoreboard.
You don't need to hold it down for +10 seconds.
Also, you are not as bad as this guy named Klazart from SC1 Commentary, but you don't always need to say what the person you are spectating is doing.
Like when a Marine is firing his LMG at at Skulk, you don't need to say "Now he's firing his LMG at a Skulk and then was ambushed and killed by (Skulk Player's Name Here) teammates" all the time. The gameplay what you see on screen speaks for itself already, don't need to reiterate every action with a voice.
Is nice to have silent periods to just listen to the game, and then you can reiterate what happened 10-15 seconds ago with commentary when there is downtime.
Usually when a bunch of Marines die, there is nothing that is going to happen interesting within the next 10-15 seconds.
*****
And what others have said, talk about the map instead of just the players (take SC1 Commentary for example). Explain what research path Marines will take (and what that means in terms of gameplay), and what nodes each team wants. Explain the places of the map each team wants to hold and where the Kharaa want to ambush.
Basically, just explain the map and flow of the game a bit more, with brief pauses to watch the gameplay. It is hard thing to change, but say like for every minute of gameplay, you want to have at least 10 seconds of uncommentated gameplay.
Or the easier solution that I just can do fpr me is to just mute the volume, but then the video gets a little boring with ingame sounds. Soo yeah... =|
I don't really want to say anything negative, because I love those vids and don't want to discourage you. But anyway there's a couple of words and phrases that you overuse a little. Just something I noticed. No offense. I know it's harder for us non-native speakers with our somewhat limited vocabulary.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Don't worry, I'm not easy to discourage. Which words I am overusing? I know I did overuse "actually" in the beginning (some people told me so) and I think I stopped it succesfully, I just need to know what I am doing wrong to better myself :)
@Jimyd
Yes on the scoreboard, I tried minimize its use only to see myself what lifeforms are popping out, maybe can even more. But I still have issues with minimap usage...it is really that important to me ..let's see what I can do :/
For commentating generally I think you are right, stating the obvious is bad. But for RT cap / pressure side I think I give a good coverage, at least on the say, last 3 matches. If not, I'd be happy to hear what specifically I did wrong to improve on this part.
And I am not 100% sure about saying nothing for about 10 seconds. I have a strange feeling when watching games with voice downtime (like "cmon tell us what you think man, COMMENTATE") on other commentators. On the other hand it seems more common on professional sports (not e-sports). Might need more input from other viewers on this part.
edit: Okay have gone over some of your videos again, and I must say that what I said mostly applies to the early videos and isn't really existent in your later ones:
no can do pretty much not gonna happen
There were a couple situations where you used those a lot. I'm being picky now, I know.
Also you want to use <i>possibly</i> or <i>maybe</i> instead of <i>eventually</i>. Typical German mistake. Unfortunately <i>eventually</i> doesn't mean <i>eventuell</i> even though that's what one would think. ;p
For what I meant by Klazart. You'll see what I mean by just watching the first 3 minutes of that video(watch the whole thing though, really).
You are not as bad as him(nobody is), but its easy to get overexcited and forget to pace yourself.
Also, I think if you want to use the map, use the Overview button in the Spectator bar. That way you don't have 3 things going on(talking/fps view/map view) all at the same time.
First of all I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart that you kept me entertained for so long now blind ! I have no game to play at the moment and I'm just waiting for NS2 to come out and your commentary helped a lot to kill some time :)
I do partly agree with JimyD, it's not necessary to talk about what a player is doing right now if it's something obvious like shooting, but as far as I can remember you never did that, maybe only in the way that you get excited about a life form or marine is narrowly escaping its death.
The one thing that you could do, is to pause the replay and give a quick review of the map and the alien starting positions and the strategy that would normally be chosen in this occasion and why, on some audio replays of WCIII the shoutcasters did that and I thought it was always helpfull (they didn't pause the game ofcourse, because WCIII is pretty slow compared to NS1). The only problem with this might be that people would get bored by the discussion in the begining without any action to watch, but you could make it a part on the playlist on youtube so they could skip ahead or something like that.
In Starcraft, at the beginning of the match there is basically nothing to talk about. You get your Workers to start harvesting, and after about a minute you'll know what build is going on.
Basically for NS1, unless the whole pressure and res team gets wiped out within 30 seconds from rushing at the start, it isn't worth mentioning really.
Everyone knows a Marines will kill a few Skulks, then die, and repeat for the other teammates in the beginning. Even within the first minute, not even a Lerk will be popping out(they might start egging at the 1 minute mark if they happen to get all the kills on the pressure team, but otherwise no).
So basically, where you amp up the speed of the commentary is when the Fades pop, or a Lerk/Gorge base rush takes out Marine start. Everything up till the Fades popping is generally standard and the same thing every time.
In Starcraft 1, this is when the Terran(Humans) do their mid-game push against the Zerg(Aliens) with their Tank+Vultures(Unless they went Marine+Medic or BioCommando), and it happens around the same minute mark usually every single time.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2010
Maybe consider rewinding and replaying critical moments from another point of view as you discuss what was done right and wrong...like instant replay. There are many times where there is something really interesting going on that gets missed. I can rewind your video, but often you don't have the right view of the action, and if you miss it, it's gone forever. Obviously, this should only be done once maybe twice per match at really interesting or pivotal moments.
<!--quoteo(post=1776524:date=Jul 1 2010, 12:06 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Jul 1 2010, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe consider rewinding and replaying critical moments from another point of view as you discuss what was done right and wrong...like instant replay. There are many times where there is something really interesting going on that gets missed. I can rewind your video, but often you don't have the right view of the action, and if you miss it, it's gone forever. Obviously, this should only be done once maybe twice per match at really interesting or pivotal moments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely, easily done and probably looks good. Need to make a fine line whether it is a shoutcast or game review though :)
I agree on the commentary criticism with Jimyd. Good job anyway. I just would like you to see shoutcasting some more interesting games, like in the past. Mostly because atleast competitive players remember these recent games but even I can't remember what happened in S2 Finals, and back then the skill level was higher than it was today.
Actually in NS there's always something to talk about. When I was handling some live shoutcasts I urged to keep on talking, analyzing, not stating the obvious. Silence kind of transmits a signal that the commentators don't know what to say or what's happening. You can always speculate what can happen, and there's lots to it. You shouldn't try to tell what's happening with the player on screen but add insight to the commentary like "these marines are not pushing in, they're buying time for the capping team to, and then push both nodes at the same time". Of couse since your commentaries are probably aimed both competitive and non-competitive players, lots of stuff is not that obvious.
So yeah I think you focus a bit too much on the player you're spectating, instead you could analyze minimap, resflow, resouce usage, upgrades and tactical position. The question "what should marines/aliens do to win the game right now" should spur up a lot of speculation.
Actually Jimyd, when the Fade pops up, the game's pretty much decided by then. Most of the time. Usually either team has failed defending / pressuring rts.
Dr. PepperJoin Date: 2010-07-01Member: 72217Members
<!--quoteo(post=1769118:date=Apr 29 2010, 07:26 AM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Apr 29 2010, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey guys. I'm sorry if this is dropped in the wrong subforums, but I figured it would be well placed here.
If you know some game commentary (e.g. HDstarcraft - love it) you know how a good commentator can spread popularity for a game by demonstrating its tactical depth. NS do have a lot of depth in gameplay, especially compared with all other FPS I know, and I'd really like to have some good NS2 commentary going on when this will finally grow up.
Regarding no one ever did some on NS1 I tried to fill out the hole by commentating/shoutcasting recent NS1 matches of ENSL which is still running. I'm completely new to this, so don't expect too much as I try to get better with every shoutcast I do. Hence, feedback and criticizm are highly appreciated.
All matches can be found here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/blindNS" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/blindNS</a>
Because youtube videos are restricted up to 10 minutes length, I had to split many rounds. Hence I created playlists but you can also select specific rounds in my uploads on my channel and follow throughout the video responses I seeded.
Also mentioning that all vids are HD, because I personally always forget that I can select better res on youtube videos while complaining about the quality :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going to deviate slightly from this and suggest that while match videos are good, they're mainly for preaching to the choir. To attract new blood, I think rudimentary playing style, strategy videos for the different alien forms and marine equipment would serve better.
Also, get a female to narrate the videos. She can do things to adolescent males that you can't. (assuming you're a dude, bro.)
<!--quoteo(post=1776584:date=Jul 1 2010, 01:42 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 1 2010, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Jimyd, when the Fade pops up, the game's pretty much decided by then. Most of the time. Usually either team has failed defending / pressuring rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, a lot depends on how the first two minutes play out. How are the marines pushing, how many nodes teams have at that point. For example I remember doing a fast 3 LMG rush on Tanith through Chem to Fusion. Aliens had Waste and they were planning to go for the standard Fus-Acidic node setup. Due to the LMGs Acidic never got dropped and Fus got shot down only a moment later. At 1:15 or so, the odds had gone from a rough 50-50 to 80-20 even though we were supposed to be the underdog.
Usually it gets far more diverse depending on how much the commander invests on the node pressure, how far the marine capper team progresses, how the skulks score early RFK and so on. At least for me the early game before fades is one of the most interesting parts of the game due to all the control and planning you can have at that point. Usually later on the game develops into a more standard offensive/defensive position play without awfully much complex planning, but the early openings can involve quite a bit of intentional variation at best.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Ok, I see, still a lot to improve. Will try some better map coverage with possible tactics on the next match (which is going to be S13 div1 finals) I cast. Until then you can watch the semis between 9L and Saunamen:
Still not sure about rewinding, it might fail by misclicking a lot. Just try yourself playing a demo of at least 30 minutes length and then aim for just 20 secs ago on the progress bar. But if there is a situation worth the risk, say like in takeOver vs 2Balls round 2 (2 fades + onos + lerk getting raped), I shall do :)
@Jimyd
LOL about that SC1 commentary, think he tried to be faster than the koreans in the background. Yeah, certainly not aiming for that.
<!--quoteo(post=1776668:date=Jul 2 2010, 10:26 AM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Jul 2 2010, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still not sure about rewinding, it might fail by misclicking a lot. Just try yourself playing a demo of at least 30 minutes length and then aim for just 20 secs ago on the progress bar. But if there is a situation worth the risk, say like in takeOver vs 2Balls round 2 (2 fades + onos + lerk getting raped), I shall do :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You might have to edit video for that instead of doing it on the fly. I dont think its that necessery but if you want change go ahead. Get a co-caster im sure someone is up for it :)
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Getting a co-caster isn't the problem, I know quite a few who would do it. But my computer doesn't allow it though, I've spent several days trying to fix it, no success.
Talk about the teams outside of what is happening in the current match. Give us information we can't know just by watching the replay by ourselves.
For example:
What strategies the teams commonly use. If there are grudges involved. How tough it was for the team to get to the finals. Who's the most favored, and by how much. That sort of stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1776693:date=Jul 2 2010, 09:05 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 2 2010, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes you heard him right, get a female blind!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As long as they know how competitive NS1 works. Female commentators who know much less about video games than the males are counterproductive. Makes me want to bash my head in whenever the stereotype is upheld.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
BTW- the phrase "at/in this moment" is not very common in English. It's a dead giveaway that you're not a native speaker when you overuse that phrase (spanish speakers are the worst because that's very common in spanish). It doesn't bother me as it still makes sense, but just thought you should be aware of that.
Things I concentrated on, talking about map layout, commons strats hive pros/cons. Talk about teams/players a bit. Not stating the obvious :P Also trying to reduce over-used phrases, but man, that's still hard. It will come :)
Be sure to watch round 5 and 6 on eclipse, best matches I have casted so far.
The one obvious problem is, I think, you actually talk too much. And because of that you end missing some key moments of the game. You could certainly use a second commentator to pick up on the things that you do happen to miss as you can never catch them all. So fixerate the problem and get some backup.
First, I hate dual commentating unless it is 2-3 Korean commentators during a live tournament match(because they are just soo expressive =D). There tends to be too many akward pauses when there is more than 1 commentator, unless they are very experienced and have been doing it for a long time(as a career basically).
Second, I watched <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_GoDrL9OYg&feature=PlayList&p=DB8D620BD558A624&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_GoDrL9OYg...&playnext=1</a> Game 5 on Eclipse(as suggested), and this is exactly what I was looking for.
Good job, exactly how I wanted you to "fix" certain stuff. I approve of rewinding to see that Lerk kill, and even I couldn't really tell why it died so fast. I think it was probably just the Lork being Pistol whipped really well with good aiming skills.
I haven't watched game 6 yet, because I have been playing games myself, but if it is as good/same as Game 5, or better, then you definetly are on the right track.
*****
As for anyone noticing pauses in talking and stuff, that really can't be helped/fixed right away. This is because blind is either not a native English speaker, or just has an accent, but this will improve over time. Eventually you'll find the perfect pacing blind, and you will do it without thinking about it.
Also something I would like to point out, NS2 will probably have better possibilities for Commentating. This is due to the NS1 Tech Tree being very simple and pretty straightforward. Where NS2 will have a lot more dynamic, I know it was a pun, things going on.
This is good practice for blind, if he plans to commentate for NS2(I hope you do). There doesn't seem to be really anyone else doing NS Commentaries, so blind basically almost gets the "recognizable status" if these commentaries keep hitting off well.
Youtube search HDStarcraft and HuskyStarcraft, you will see what I mean.
*****
And to say again, you don't need a second commentator. Unless of course you can get a webcam to point straight at her umm... during the whole cast with a PiP view. ;D
Hi Blind, while I appreciate the effort you put in your commentaries, there are quite a few things that make them hard to enjoy. Now this might be a lot to swallow at a time, but i'm by no mean bashing you or insulting your ability to commentate :D, just keep that in mind.
1) First Person View:
This is the major problem in my opinion. It's just horrible to watch, the screen moves around too much too fast and while that's normal and fine for a competitive player who's used to it, it ain't that easy for us casual players. Not to mention the jumps that occur from player to player make it even worse. If we were watching the same person in First person the whole time it would be fine, but that's no possible if we want to know what's happening in the match.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
Try this for one match, spectate from 3rd person and/or free view. We can tell a hell of a lot more of what's happening if you spectate from free view or 3rd person mode. In first person we only see what that player sees, and because there are all these effects that go on when he fires or takes damage and stuff it's hard to tell what's happening to him and/or his allies. But from 3rd person or free view, you will easily be able to tell what happened, who died and how, who killed what and how, etc. I'm not saying don't use 1st person view at all, you can use it when it matters, like in a 1v3 situation or something like that. just to see how that player was able to beat the enemy when he was outnumbered.
2) Targeted Audience:
Have you ever watched Tasteless Plot's Starcraft commentaries on GomTV? He assumes that his audience has played the game but only casually, and then he commentates from that perspective. It's very important for the spectator to be able to follow what's happening and why. If we can't tell what's happening and why then we won't enjoy the game. I'm by no means a "pro" player but i consider myself a decent player (or at least used to be in NS1), however in your commentaries i can't tell what's happening half the time :( The minimap overlay might be easy to read for an experienced player that knows what he's looking for, but for spectators it's hard to tell what's happening by taking a glimpse at it. Plus it's not that clear. But i believe this problem won't be as bad if free view or 3rd person is used.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
I think you should commentate as if we only played the game casually, like we know what a Skulk is, but we don't necessarily know what his upgrades are called or how important they are, or in some cases what they exactly do, etc.
3) Knowing the maps:
We don't know the maps by heart, now in rts games that's not a problem since you can easily see where things are and in what direction they're going, but in here it's a little more tricky.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
When the game starts, using free view or 3rd person follow the first couple of players as they move out of their base, just to give us a feel of where the tunnels lead and where the hot spots are located and how to reach them from the base. Another thing you can do, before the game starts or something, show the overlay of the map in clear way (no transparency) and explain the hot spots.
Keep it up :), i'm glad to see that there's the possibility of having commentated NS2 games.
<!--quoteo(post=1778060:date=Jul 12 2010, 09:44 PM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ Jul 12 2010, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi Blind, while I appreciate the effort you put in your commentaries, there are quite a few things that make them hard to enjoy. Now this might be a lot to swallow at a time, but i'm by no mean bashing you or insulting your ability to commentate :D, just keep that in mind.
1) First Person View:
This is the major problem in my opinion. It's just horrible to watch, the screen moves around too much too fast and while that's normal and fine for a competitive player who's used to it, it ain't that easy for us casual players. Not to mention the jumps that occur from player to player make it even worse. If we were watching the same person in First person the whole time it would be fine, but that's no possible if we want to know what's happening in the match.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
Try this for one match, spectate from 3rd person and/or free view. We can tell a hell of a lot more of what's happening if you spectate from free view or 3rd person mode. In first person we only see what that player sees, and because there are all these effects that go on when he fires or takes damage and stuff it's hard to tell what's happening to him and/or his allies. But from 3rd person or free view, you will easily be able to tell what happened, who died and how, who killed what and how, etc. I'm not saying don't use 1st person view at all, you can use it when it matters, like in a 1v3 situation or something like that. just to see how that player was able to beat the enemy when he was outnumbered.
2) Targeted Audience:
Have you ever watched Tasteless Plot's Starcraft commentaries on GomTV? He assumes that his audience has played the game but only casually, and then he commentates from that perspective. It's very important for the spectator to be able to follow what's happening and why. If we can't tell what's happening and why then we won't enjoy the game. I'm by no means a "pro" player but i consider myself a decent player (or at least used to be in NS1), however in your commentaries i can't tell what's happening half the time :( The minimap overlay might be easy to read for an experienced player that knows what he's looking for, but for spectators it's hard to tell what's happening by taking a glimpse at it. Plus it's not that clear. But i believe this problem won't be as bad if free view or 3rd person is used.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
I think you should commentate as if we only played the game casually, like we know what a Skulk is, but we don't necessarily know what his upgrades are called or how important they are, or in some cases what they exactly do, etc.
3) Knowing the maps:
We don't know the maps by heart, now in rts games that's not a problem since you can easily see where things are and in what direction they're going, but in here it's a little more tricky.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
When the game starts, using free view or 3rd person follow the first couple of players as they move out of their base, just to give us a feel of where the tunnels lead and where the hot spots are located and how to reach them from the base. Another thing you can do, before the game starts or something, show the overlay of the map in clear way (no transparency) and explain the hot spots.
Keep it up :), i'm glad to see that there's the possibility of having commentated NS2 games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is only applicable if he starts commentating NS2.
I hate it when people make "Skill Vids or Commentary" of FPS games, and only use(or mostly use) the Thirdperson View. Why you ask? Because you don't see any of the skill of the Player from that. You don't see what he/she sees. Bad idea in my opinion.
Especially in a 1v3 situation where the Marine kills all the Skulks, in Thirdperson you don't see any of the skill involved of aiming. The Kharaa(Aliens) are better to spectate in Thirdperson due to all their attacks being melee mostly(except for Lerk since you got to combine flying and attacking with bite, which is tricky to pull off correctly all the time).
Also, most people watching these commentaries kind of know the game in some fashion already. We don't need the Copper/Bronze(or whatever;stupid Silver) level of explaining like a SC2 commentary for noobs.
If you watch the game I did that I mention in my previous post(the same on blind suggested), you will see it is a lot better now.
<!--quoteo(post=1778063:date=Jul 13 2010, 12:11 AM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jul 13 2010, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is only applicable if he starts commentating NS2.
I hate it when people make "Skill Vids or Commentary" of FPS games, and only use(or mostly use) the Thirdperson View. Why you ask? Because you don't see any of the skill of the Player from that. You don't see what he/she sees. Bad idea in my opinion.
Especially in a 1v3 situation where the Marine kills all the Skulks, in Thirdperson you don't see any of the skill involved of aiming. The Kharaa(Aliens) are better to spectate in Thirdperson due to all their attacks being melee mostly(except for Lerk since you got to combine flying and attacking with bite, which is tricky to pull off correctly all the time).
Also, most people watching these commentaries kind of know the game in some fashion already. We don't need the Copper/Bronze(or whatever;stupid Silver) level of explaining like a SC2 commentary for noobs.
If you watch the game I did that I mention in my previous post(the same on blind suggested), you will see it is a lot better now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS is about team work more than it is about individual skills. Not to mention it has a lot of strategical thinking unlike most fps where it's just point and shoot. I saw the video you suggested, I do agree that it's better than the first ones he made, but i still believe my suggestions hold. For the 1v3 situation, i did suggest using first person to show personal skill.
Think of it this way, imagine watching a soccer game viewed from 1st person, how do you think that would look like? sure you can get a really close view of the player's skill but you can't easily tell what else is happening around him because we can only see so much on our screens. That's why in all sports you always have a bird's eye view. In racing, they sometimes show you the driver's view, but only briefly.
I'm not saying switch to 3rd person or free view permanently, i'm just asking to try it out for one cast if it's possible.
If i understand correctly you flash the score screen to see the life forms of the aliens? Also is it possible to have the overlays minimap but in a smaller scale to lower left of the screen; making it similar to an RTS's minimap ?
Comments
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sreuenJkIcM&feature=PlayList&p=8A168460EB6D9A86&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sreuenJkIcM...&playnext=1</a>
Hurry up with the alpha, I want to cast the first NS2 matches :)
Here we go for the S13 closings (the "brackets"). Starting with the Division 1 teams, we have as semifinals U GO? vs. takeOver:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enfzgg53aaA&feature=PlayList&p=9D4559CB49726681&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enfzgg53aaA...&playnext=1</a>
Here we go for the S13 closings (the "brackets"). Starting with the Division 1 teams, we have as semifinals U GO? vs. takeOver:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enfzgg53aaA&feature=PlayList&p=9D4559CB49726681&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enfzgg53aaA...&playnext=1</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good, If you lack anything say (did not seems to be the case) you can always explain what are to be expected from lifeforms, how the upgrades effect the game (on hive rush for example), whether if certain tactic is balanced, defensive, offensive. Timings too whether hive/xxx/xxx is fast or slow, how will losing rts affect aliens or marines etc. Many things that are not obvious for new or non-competitive players.
Keep up the good work!!!
Also, I played a bit with the channel design. Maybe a dev can tell me if it's ok to use NS2 arts for backgrounds? I already put some in :)
You don't need to hold it down for +10 seconds.
Also, you are not as bad as this guy named Klazart from SC1 Commentary, but you don't always need to say what the person you are spectating is doing.
Like when a Marine is firing his LMG at at Skulk, you don't need to say "Now he's firing his LMG at a Skulk and then was ambushed and killed by (Skulk Player's Name Here) teammates" all the time. The gameplay what you see on screen speaks for itself already, don't need to reiterate every action with a voice.
Is nice to have silent periods to just listen to the game, and then you can reiterate what happened 10-15 seconds ago with commentary when there is downtime.
Usually when a bunch of Marines die, there is nothing that is going to happen interesting within the next 10-15 seconds.
*****
And what others have said, talk about the map instead of just the players (take SC1 Commentary for example). Explain what research path Marines will take (and what that means in terms of gameplay), and what nodes each team wants. Explain the places of the map each team wants to hold and where the Kharaa want to ambush.
Basically, just explain the map and flow of the game a bit more, with brief pauses to watch the gameplay. It is hard thing to change, but say like for every minute of gameplay, you want to have at least 10 seconds of uncommentated gameplay.
Or the easier solution that I just can do fpr me is to just mute the volume, but then the video gets a little boring with ingame sounds. Soo yeah... =|
@Jimyd
Yes on the scoreboard, I tried minimize its use only to see myself what lifeforms are popping out, maybe can even more. But I still have issues with minimap usage...it is really that important to me ..let's see what I can do :/
For commentating generally I think you are right, stating the obvious is bad. But for RT cap / pressure side I think I give a good coverage, at least on the say, last 3 matches. If not, I'd be happy to hear what specifically I did wrong to improve on this part.
And I am not 100% sure about saying nothing for about 10 seconds. I have a strange feeling when watching games with voice downtime (like "cmon tell us what you think man, COMMENTATE") on other commentators. On the other hand it seems more common on professional sports (not e-sports). Might need more input from other viewers on this part.
edit: Okay have gone over some of your videos again, and I must say that what I said mostly applies to the early videos and isn't really existent in your later ones:
no can do
pretty much
not gonna happen
There were a couple situations where you used those a lot. I'm being picky now, I know.
Also you want to use <i>possibly</i> or <i>maybe</i> instead of <i>eventually</i>. Typical German mistake. Unfortunately <i>eventually</i> doesn't mean <i>eventuell</i> even though that's what one would think. ;p
Basically, you will get this by just not regurgitating everything you see on screen(and off screen when looking at the map).
=D
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/KlazartSC#p/u/31/hwbygovKSEo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/KlazartSC#p/u/31/hwbygovKSEo</a>
For what I meant by Klazart. You'll see what I mean by just watching the first 3 minutes of that video(watch the whole thing though, really).
You are not as bad as him(nobody is), but its easy to get overexcited and forget to pace yourself.
Also, I think if you want to use the map, use the Overview button in the Spectator bar. That way you don't have 3 things going on(talking/fps view/map view) all at the same time.
I have no game to play at the moment and I'm just waiting for NS2 to come out and your commentary helped a lot to kill some time :)
I do partly agree with JimyD, it's not necessary to talk about what a player is doing right now if it's something obvious like shooting, but as far as I can remember you never did that, maybe only in the way that you get excited about a life form or marine is narrowly escaping its death.
The one thing that you could do, is to pause the replay and give a quick review of the map and the alien starting positions and the strategy that would normally be chosen in this occasion and why, on some audio replays of WCIII the shoutcasters did that and I thought it was always helpfull (they didn't pause the game ofcourse, because WCIII is pretty slow compared to NS1).
The only problem with this might be that people would get bored by the discussion in the begining without any action to watch, but you could make it a part on the playlist on youtube so they could skip ahead or something like that.
Just an idea you might want to try out.
Thanks again for the shoutcasting !
Basically for NS1, unless the whole pressure and res team gets wiped out within 30 seconds from rushing at the start, it isn't worth mentioning really.
Everyone knows a Marines will kill a few Skulks, then die, and repeat for the other teammates in the beginning. Even within the first minute, not even a Lerk will be popping out(they might start egging at the 1 minute mark if they happen to get all the kills on the pressure team, but otherwise no).
So basically, where you amp up the speed of the commentary is when the Fades pop, or a Lerk/Gorge base rush takes out Marine start. Everything up till the Fades popping is generally standard and the same thing every time.
In Starcraft 1, this is when the Terran(Humans) do their mid-game push against the Zerg(Aliens) with their Tank+Vultures(Unless they went Marine+Medic or BioCommando), and it happens around the same minute mark usually every single time.
Absolutely, easily done and probably looks good. Need to make a fine line whether it is a shoutcast or game review though :)
Actually in NS there's always something to talk about. When I was handling some live shoutcasts I urged to keep on talking, analyzing, not stating the obvious. Silence kind of transmits a signal that the commentators don't know what to say or what's happening. You can always speculate what can happen, and there's lots to it. You shouldn't try to tell what's happening with the player on screen but add insight to the commentary like "these marines are not pushing in, they're buying time for the capping team to, and then push both nodes at the same time". Of couse since your commentaries are probably aimed both competitive and non-competitive players, lots of stuff is not that obvious.
So yeah I think you focus a bit too much on the player you're spectating, instead you could analyze minimap, resflow, resouce usage, upgrades and tactical position. The question "what should marines/aliens do to win the game right now" should spur up a lot of speculation.
Actually Jimyd, when the Fade pops up, the game's pretty much decided by then. Most of the time. Usually either team has failed defending / pressuring rts.
If you know some game commentary (e.g. HDstarcraft - love it) you know how a good commentator can spread popularity for a game by demonstrating its tactical depth. NS do have a lot of depth in gameplay, especially compared with all other FPS I know, and I'd really like to have some good NS2 commentary going on when this will finally grow up.
Regarding no one ever did some on NS1 I tried to fill out the hole by commentating/shoutcasting recent NS1 matches of ENSL which is still running. I'm completely new to this, so don't expect too much as I try to get better with every shoutcast I do. Hence, feedback and criticizm are highly appreciated.
All matches can be found here:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/blindNS" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/blindNS</a>
Because youtube videos are restricted up to 10 minutes length, I had to split many rounds. Hence I created playlists but you can also select specific rounds in my uploads on my channel and follow throughout the video responses I seeded.
Also mentioning that all vids are HD, because I personally always forget that I can select better res on youtube videos while complaining about the quality :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going to deviate slightly from this and suggest that while match videos are good, they're mainly for preaching to the choir. To attract new blood, I think rudimentary playing style, strategy videos for the different alien forms and marine equipment would serve better.
Also, get a female to narrate the videos. She can do things to adolescent males that you can't. (assuming you're a dude, bro.)
Yeah, a lot depends on how the first two minutes play out. How are the marines pushing, how many nodes teams have at that point. For example I remember doing a fast 3 LMG rush on Tanith through Chem to Fusion. Aliens had Waste and they were planning to go for the standard Fus-Acidic node setup. Due to the LMGs Acidic never got dropped and Fus got shot down only a moment later. At 1:15 or so, the odds had gone from a rough 50-50 to 80-20 even though we were supposed to be the underdog.
Usually it gets far more diverse depending on how much the commander invests on the node pressure, how far the marine capper team progresses, how the skulks score early RFK and so on. At least for me the early game before fades is one of the most interesting parts of the game due to all the control and planning you can have at that point. Usually later on the game develops into a more standard offensive/defensive position play without awfully much complex planning, but the early openings can involve quite a bit of intentional variation at best.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5HSRHkX0_A&feature=PlayList&p=CB6D7EAE26FD626D&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5HSRHkX0_A...&playnext=1</a>
Still not sure about rewinding, it might fail by misclicking a lot. Just try yourself playing a demo of at least 30 minutes length and then aim for just 20 secs ago on the progress bar. But if there is a situation worth the risk, say like in takeOver vs 2Balls round 2 (2 fades + onos + lerk getting raped), I shall do :)
@Jimyd
LOL about that SC1 commentary, think he tried to be faster than the koreans in the background. Yeah, certainly not aiming for that.
You might have to edit video for that instead of doing it on the fly. I dont think its that necessery but if you want change go ahead. Get a co-caster im sure someone is up for it :)
Talk about the teams outside of what is happening in the current match. Give us information we can't know just by watching the replay by ourselves.
For example:
What strategies the teams commonly use. If there are grudges involved. How tough it was for the team to get to the finals. Who's the most favored, and by how much. That sort of stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1776693:date=Jul 2 2010, 09:05 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 2 2010, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes you heard him right, get a female blind!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as they know how competitive NS1 works. Female commentators who know much less about video games than the males are counterproductive. Makes me want to bash my head in whenever the stereotype is upheld.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_GoDrL9OYg&feature=PlayList&p=DB8D620BD558A624&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_GoDrL9OYg...&playnext=1</a>
Things I concentrated on, talking about map layout, commons strats hive pros/cons. Talk about teams/players a bit. Not stating the obvious :P
Also trying to reduce over-used phrases, but man, that's still hard. It will come :)
Be sure to watch round 5 and 6 on eclipse, best matches I have casted so far.
Second, I watched <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_GoDrL9OYg&feature=PlayList&p=DB8D620BD558A624&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_GoDrL9OYg...&playnext=1</a> Game 5 on Eclipse(as suggested), and this is exactly what I was looking for.
Good job, exactly how I wanted you to "fix" certain stuff. I approve of rewinding to see that Lerk kill, and even I couldn't really tell why it died so fast. I think it was probably just the Lork being Pistol whipped really well with good aiming skills.
I haven't watched game 6 yet, because I have been playing games myself, but if it is as good/same as Game 5, or better, then you definetly are on the right track.
*****
As for anyone noticing pauses in talking and stuff, that really can't be helped/fixed right away. This is because blind is either not a native English speaker, or just has an accent, but this will improve over time. Eventually you'll find the perfect pacing blind, and you will do it without thinking about it.
Also something I would like to point out, NS2 will probably have better possibilities for Commentating. This is due to the NS1 Tech Tree being very simple and pretty straightforward. Where NS2 will have a lot more dynamic, I know it was a pun, things going on.
This is good practice for blind, if he plans to commentate for NS2(I hope you do). There doesn't seem to be really anyone else doing NS Commentaries, so blind basically almost gets the "recognizable status" if these commentaries keep hitting off well.
Youtube search HDStarcraft and HuskyStarcraft, you will see what I mean.
*****
And to say again, you don't need a second commentator. Unless of course you can get a webcam to point straight at her umm... during the whole cast with a PiP view. ;D
1) First Person View:
This is the major problem in my opinion. It's just horrible to watch, the screen moves around too much too fast and while that's normal and fine for a competitive player who's used to it, it ain't that easy for us casual players. Not to mention the jumps that occur from player to player make it even worse. If we were watching the same person in First person the whole time it would be fine, but that's no possible if we want to know what's happening in the match.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
Try this for one match, spectate from 3rd person and/or free view. We can tell a hell of a lot more of what's happening if you spectate from free view or 3rd person mode. In first person we only see what that player sees, and because there are all these effects that go on when he fires or takes damage and stuff it's hard to tell what's happening to him and/or his allies. But from 3rd person or free view, you will easily be able to tell what happened, who died and how, who killed what and how, etc.
I'm not saying don't use 1st person view at all, you can use it when it matters, like in a 1v3 situation or something like that. just to see how that player was able to beat the enemy when he was outnumbered.
2) Targeted Audience:
Have you ever watched Tasteless Plot's Starcraft commentaries on GomTV? He assumes that his audience has played the game but only casually, and then he commentates from that perspective.
It's very important for the spectator to be able to follow what's happening and why. If we can't tell what's happening and why then we won't enjoy the game. I'm by no means a "pro" player but i consider myself a decent player (or at least used to be in NS1), however in your commentaries i can't tell what's happening half the time :(
The minimap overlay might be easy to read for an experienced player that knows what he's looking for, but for spectators it's hard to tell what's happening by taking a glimpse at it. Plus it's not that clear. But i believe this problem won't be as bad if free view or 3rd person is used.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
I think you should commentate as if we only played the game casually, like we know what a Skulk is, but we don't necessarily know what his upgrades are called or how important they are, or in some cases what they exactly do, etc.
3) Knowing the maps:
We don't know the maps by heart, now in rts games that's not a problem since you can easily see where things are and in what direction they're going, but in here it's a little more tricky.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
When the game starts, using free view or 3rd person follow the first couple of players as they move out of their base, just to give us a feel of where the tunnels lead and where the hot spots are located and how to reach them from the base.
Another thing you can do, before the game starts or something, show the overlay of the map in clear way (no transparency) and explain the hot spots.
Keep it up :), i'm glad to see that there's the possibility of having commentated NS2 games.
1) First Person View:
This is the major problem in my opinion. It's just horrible to watch, the screen moves around too much too fast and while that's normal and fine for a competitive player who's used to it, it ain't that easy for us casual players. Not to mention the jumps that occur from player to player make it even worse. If we were watching the same person in First person the whole time it would be fine, but that's no possible if we want to know what's happening in the match.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
Try this for one match, spectate from 3rd person and/or free view. We can tell a hell of a lot more of what's happening if you spectate from free view or 3rd person mode. In first person we only see what that player sees, and because there are all these effects that go on when he fires or takes damage and stuff it's hard to tell what's happening to him and/or his allies. But from 3rd person or free view, you will easily be able to tell what happened, who died and how, who killed what and how, etc.
I'm not saying don't use 1st person view at all, you can use it when it matters, like in a 1v3 situation or something like that. just to see how that player was able to beat the enemy when he was outnumbered.
2) Targeted Audience:
Have you ever watched Tasteless Plot's Starcraft commentaries on GomTV? He assumes that his audience has played the game but only casually, and then he commentates from that perspective.
It's very important for the spectator to be able to follow what's happening and why. If we can't tell what's happening and why then we won't enjoy the game. I'm by no means a "pro" player but i consider myself a decent player (or at least used to be in NS1), however in your commentaries i can't tell what's happening half the time :(
The minimap overlay might be easy to read for an experienced player that knows what he's looking for, but for spectators it's hard to tell what's happening by taking a glimpse at it. Plus it's not that clear. But i believe this problem won't be as bad if free view or 3rd person is used.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
I think you should commentate as if we only played the game casually, like we know what a Skulk is, but we don't necessarily know what his upgrades are called or how important they are, or in some cases what they exactly do, etc.
3) Knowing the maps:
We don't know the maps by heart, now in rts games that's not a problem since you can easily see where things are and in what direction they're going, but in here it's a little more tricky.
<b>Suggested fix:</b>
When the game starts, using free view or 3rd person follow the first couple of players as they move out of their base, just to give us a feel of where the tunnels lead and where the hot spots are located and how to reach them from the base.
Another thing you can do, before the game starts or something, show the overlay of the map in clear way (no transparency) and explain the hot spots.
Keep it up :), i'm glad to see that there's the possibility of having commentated NS2 games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is only applicable if he starts commentating NS2.
I hate it when people make "Skill Vids or Commentary" of FPS games, and only use(or mostly use) the Thirdperson View. Why you ask? Because you don't see any of the skill of the Player from that. You don't see what he/she sees. Bad idea in my opinion.
Especially in a 1v3 situation where the Marine kills all the Skulks, in Thirdperson you don't see any of the skill involved of aiming. The Kharaa(Aliens) are better to spectate in Thirdperson due to all their attacks being melee mostly(except for Lerk since you got to combine flying and attacking with bite, which is tricky to pull off correctly all the time).
Also, most people watching these commentaries kind of know the game in some fashion already. We don't need the Copper/Bronze(or whatever;stupid Silver) level of explaining like a SC2 commentary for noobs.
If you watch the game I did that I mention in my previous post(the same on blind suggested), you will see it is a lot better now.
I hate it when people make "Skill Vids or Commentary" of FPS games, and only use(or mostly use) the Thirdperson View. Why you ask? Because you don't see any of the skill of the Player from that. You don't see what he/she sees. Bad idea in my opinion.
Especially in a 1v3 situation where the Marine kills all the Skulks, in Thirdperson you don't see any of the skill involved of aiming. The Kharaa(Aliens) are better to spectate in Thirdperson due to all their attacks being melee mostly(except for Lerk since you got to combine flying and attacking with bite, which is tricky to pull off correctly all the time).
Also, most people watching these commentaries kind of know the game in some fashion already. We don't need the Copper/Bronze(or whatever;stupid Silver) level of explaining like a SC2 commentary for noobs.
If you watch the game I did that I mention in my previous post(the same on blind suggested), you will see it is a lot better now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS is about team work more than it is about individual skills. Not to mention it has a lot of strategical thinking unlike most fps where it's just point and shoot. I saw the video you suggested, I do agree that it's better than the first ones he made, but i still believe my suggestions hold. For the 1v3 situation, i did suggest using first person to show personal skill.
Think of it this way, imagine watching a soccer game viewed from 1st person, how do you think that would look like? sure you can get a really close view of the player's skill but you can't easily tell what else is happening around him because we can only see so much on our screens. That's why in all sports you always have a bird's eye view. In racing, they sometimes show you the driver's view, but only briefly.
I'm not saying switch to 3rd person or free view permanently, i'm just asking to try it out for one cast if it's possible.
If i understand correctly you flash the score screen to see the life forms of the aliens? Also is it possible to have the overlays minimap but in a smaller scale to lower left of the screen; making it similar to an RTS's minimap ?