I don't fully understand what you mean by genre changing.
But judging by the number of people in the "for" camp, there is a distinct possibility that what I said could happen will. Also for there to have been "official" word that its not in, before gameplay testing has begun would be a bit odd. To strive to not include it would be a goal. To just not put it in, officially say that its definately not in, then to find (possibly) that without it in combined with whatever other changes are that the game that there is a bias to ranged weapons, would be a major foot-in-mouth moment.
I know thats an extreme situation above. Anyway my point is that gameplay should take presidence over atmosphere. Regardless of what is found to be the best gameplay.
I honestly don't understand how alot of people found the original so much fun to be this interested in the sequel if, to their mind, it was broken to the extent that they become animalistic in their persuit of getting what they want.
Most have also skimmed over the question I asked about what made NS great for them, its been out there for about a week now, and the one guy who actually answered it was again, attacked. It is quite a shame.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1781047:date=Jul 20 2010, 03:50 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 20 2010, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I cant see them coding in the HL engine flaws just to retain BHing, It would be nice to have some kind of skill based movement speed increase for aliens though I have no idea how it could be done without being retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From what I understand, removing air acceleration from the game is actually more work than not. For some reason the "normal" movement model includes air acceleration by default.
<!--quoteo(post=1781048:date=Jul 20 2010, 04:09 PM:name=DarkFrost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 20 2010, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I honestly don't understand how alot of people found the original so much fun to be this interested in the sequel if, to their mind, it was broken to the extent that they become animalistic in their persuit of getting what they want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really understand why, but it's no news that the topic of bunnyhopping makes some people throw away normal reasoning. Even when the NS community was at its most active state, you'd regularly have someone start a thread on this forum shouting about how bunnyhopping was cheating and that it should be removed from the game.
Informing them that it was left in the game intentionally by the developers to balance combat didn't make any difference in their minds. "It's still cheating! *froth*" I always wondered if those people really understood the meaning of cheating or if they simply didn't care because they hated bunnyhopping so intensely. Cheating is doing something outside of the rules of the game. When it's intentionally left in the game, that means it's inside of the rules.
<!--quoteo(post=1778020:date=Jul 12 2010, 05:44 PM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 12 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not what this is about. To clarify something for people who haven't necessarily played at a higher level: Once people start to be able to aim properly, jumping is not an evasive advantage against a hitscan machine gun. Practically any form of movement that locks you into a particular path is bad, jump archs can be tracked easily. Bunnyhopping while closing distance is viable as a result of the speed advantage it gives, <b>inspite</b> (not because of) the dissadvantage of a more rigid movement path. As i've said, the most effective way to dodge an accurate hitscan weapon is randomly mashing left and right, because tracking becomes inpossible, prediction goes out the window, a lot of the skills that players with good aim develop become null and void. If you increase skulk base movement speed and stick with generic forward/back/left/right movement, all that happens is people mash left and right quicker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand why you snipped off the rest of my post: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then there are several ways to allow for evasion on attack while not making skulks fly around like they have wings:
Base speed increased, when running (shift held down) make tapping strafe a sidestep (like a double tap in Tekken) on a single keystroke or a gentle slide if held down. So as you are running down a hall you tap to strafe right and it leaps extremely quickly to the side about 6 feet, possibly sticking to a wall. Much harder to hit, more intuitive than doing figure eights with your mouse or whatever was required for BH, and easy for new players to pick up so they can then spend the time learning a logical skill that the devs can easily adjust by increasing or decreasing movement speed and side stepping distance to allow for balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you notice, I was proposing a method of replicating the ability to move erratically in the game intentionally. Maybe the leap could be shift+left instead of tapping left. Maybe it could be bound to its own key. Maybe holding space down would cause an instant jump when touching any surface allowing for movement similar to bunny hopping without the 'air control' by moving extremely fast in short bursts that the player could easily control.
By insisting that BH is more in depth because it isn't an intended part of the game is ridiculous. In NS1 the skulk was only so fast because people could BH instead of allowing for general faster movement or the development of a quick strafing or jumping system that allowed for similar movement. Is it wrong for a marine to see a skulk move in a way that gives away their next movement? That's how nature works, certain motions precede certain actions, and if the skulk is allowed to make that movement extremely quickly on purpose then the marine would have to be highly skilled to see and react to that movement.
Basically, I want a skulk to have the ability to quickly move in various directions in a logical and intentional, easy to use manner that can have adjustments (faster side leaping, forward or strafing movements) to balance instead of having to work around the divide between the casual player and those that play it 8 hours a day. The system should still reward skill developed over time (a less skilled player will be repetitive or move predictably vs a skilled player who is unpredictable) by giving multiple avenues of movement choices that don't apply while in the air since a skulk does not have anything that would suggest air control like wings. Instead it should leap and bound fast enough in regular movement to accomplish the same thing when the player makes good decisions on where to go, and then reserve an leaping attack for intentional damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1781056:date=Jul 20 2010, 10:30 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jul 20 2010, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reread, he did respond to the second part of your post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without the quote he left out the context and his response treated the proposed jump like leap from NS1. Instead, it could be combined with a forward leap since the movement leap is its own thing. Here's a more in depth example with some additional details that could be used as examples.
Side leap only works while moving forward and requires contact with a surface as it redirects the momentum by using the legs, let's say there is a .2 second forward movement button press requirement for it to work so a player can't hit forward, side leap instantly with a script. <i>Leap</i> is an attack that causes damage and will be referred to as LEAP for clarity. Jumping with the space bar moves the player forward through the air in an arc the way the player is facing. There is no air control, all movement is dependent on facing when touching a surface. Air control is un-intuative because it causes the skulk to behave like it has wings, Marines shouldn't have air control either. Only winged creatures or ones with magical flying powers (Fade) should.
Skulk is approaching down a hallway with a marine at the other end. The skulk uses a crate as cover as they start the approach, then side leaps to one of the walls. The marine starts firing and the skulk leaps sideways again up to the ceiling, and hits the spacebar so that when they hit the ceiling it drops them to the ground, where they side leap to another wall, whole time approaching the marine quickly. Since the skulk can side leap at will they can get closer to the marine and then leap to the side and use LEAP to finally attack suddenly from a different direction. The entire time the skulk will have to use a surface to redirect, and the marine, also unable to change direction in the air, will not have the option to bound around to avoid the bite of the skulk.
The skill involved on both sides is reaction speed, using the environment and prediction of the enemy and correctly represents a non-winged fast moving creature vs a slower, raged weapon using marine. Sure, it pigeonholes the skulk to some degree by forcing it to comply with its class, just like a heavy armor isn't a fast moving hopper. Of course the side stepping wouldn't be effective in an open room, and it shouldn't be. Skulks are ambushers and close range fighters, who should be hitting marines where they are unsafe, in close tight areas, or supporting other lifeforms that can distract or incapacitate marines.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1781054:date=Jul 20 2010, 04:27 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 20 2010, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, I want a skulk to have the ability to quickly move in various directions in a logical and intentional, easy to use manner that can have adjustments (faster side leaping, forward or strafing movements) to balance instead of having to work around the divide between the casual player and those that play it 8 hours a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never played NS 8 hours a day and I can guarantee you that I've still managed to learn all there is to know about bunnyhopping in NS. As pointed out by several posters in this thread, bunnyhopping has a linear learning-to-performance curve. Just learning it a little gives you a comparable boost in effect. You don't actually practice for months all the while being completely useless in combat and then suddenly become godly. You can still be a casual player and learn bunnyhopping -- jump queuing and an ingame tutorial would be a big help to the small initial learning curve bump as well.
I think it's great that you've somehow found the miraculous solution to replacing bunnyhopping that has eluded thousands of game developers for the past two decades though... (to be clear: your proposed system doesn't actually have a deep learning curve. You mash buttons and the game does the moves for you. Please read this:
<!--quoteo(post=1777641:date=Jul 10 2010, 03:59 AM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 10 2010, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to replace bunnyhopping in a game that requires a complex movement skillset, you need to create something that dramatically scales with practice and technique; gives results which vary wildly based on the player's ability; fits into the current gameplay in a way that still allows you to think about and perform everything that you would normally be doing <b>at the same time</b>; and is unique and varied enough for people to develop in different ways such that they can feel as though it is part of their personal gameplay. In effect, you need to add something that is equivalent to aiming and prediction - because whatever you add will become 'aiming' for melee aliens. This is why something as simple and binary as a UT dodge move, or a sprint button does not cut it. Ideas like this are the spawn of people who don't understand the problem they are trying to solve - it's not about "making skulks faster". If it was, you'd just <b>make them faster</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1781057:date=Jul 20 2010, 04:58 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 20 2010, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are ambushers and close range fighters, who should be hitting marines where they are unsafe, in close tight areas, or supporting other lifeforms that can distract or incapacitate marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like a terribly boring game to me. The more you limit a class the less fun it is to play. Ambushing is still the preferred method of attack in NS, even for bunnyhopping experts -- the game is balanced naturally that way without having to remove a movement system that adds a lot of depth to the game.
The reason why you see players completely destroying publics with bunnyhopping is because these are extremely skilled players who have poured hours into practicing and perfecting their game. The problem isn't that bunnyhopping ruins ambushing, the "problem" is that skilled players will easily beat vastly less skilled players. Against equally skilled marines it doesn't work like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1781054:date=Jul 20 2010, 06:27 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 20 2010, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, I want a skulk to have the ability to quickly move in various directions in a logical and intentional, easy to use manner that can have adjustments (faster side leaping, forward or strafing movements) to balance instead of having to work around the divide between the casual player and those that play it 8 hours a day. The system should still reward skill developed over time (a less skilled player will be repetitive or move predictably vs a skilled player who is unpredictable) by giving multiple avenues of movement choices that don't apply while in the air since a skulk does not have anything that would suggest air control like wings. Instead it should leap and bound fast enough in regular movement to accomplish the same thing when the player makes good decisions on where to go, and then reserve an leaping attack for intentional damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's no point in making logical / predictable movement, hell I bet the marine are next one to get nerf? If you want to play tetris with 1 type of cube its ok, but I recommend another game. There has been tons of good sides to bhopping and movement in general mentioned here, only one thing against (which someone might disagree) I'm too lazy to repeat them.
<!--quoteo(post=1781066:date=Jul 20 2010, 11:25 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 20 2010, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no point in making logical / predictable movement,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than making the game behave in a semi logical manner? Why adjust to illogical movement just because it has been an unavoidable feature of early FPS game engine design instead of creating a new movement system that allows for similar evasion without the silly looking worming through the air by non-winged creatures as if they had magic anti-gravity powers. BH was only around long enough to become a 'feature' because the NS devs couldn't get rid of it earlier on, but that doesn't mean it needs to be dragged into a new system instead of being replaced with a better looking system that accomplishes the same result.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reread, he did respond to the second part of your post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did, but lets elaborate.
Bunnyhopping and QW air control are names for a general complete system of movement, a way of manipulating speed that can be applied in countless ways to enhance play. A UT dodge technique is not a general system of movement, it is a <b>special move</b>. Special moves are rigid, usually quite binary things that are coded into a game, they're fairly easy to think up and impliment, they're usually quite easy to explain to people, and for the most part the 'commands' to perform them are always simple enough for anyone to grasp. Special moves themselves however, are really not very interesting, what matters is the gameplay that results from them...
In Quakeworld/HL/NS1, there are 2 movement related 'special moves' - by which i mean intentionally hard coded physics rules, that result in the current motion. The first is instant jumping, you've no delay on landing before you can jump again, and speed reduction due to ground friction is based on time spent on the ground. The second is air brakes, you can create a really tiny amount of momentum in the air by pressing in any direction, but this change in momentum is massively boosted whenever you press in a direction that opposes your current motion. Allowing you to press back to stop in the air if you're jumping forward.
These 2 'special moves' do not seem very interesting at all, they're fairly simple to explain and understand, there's certainly no real difficulty or skill in performing them, and at first glance they don't seem very important at all. These 2 rules are responsible for all the motion you see in the previously linked youtube vids, the instant jumping allows any speed to be carried from one jump to the next, and the 'airbrakes' when manipulated in a certain way allow characters to slingshot around, changing the angle of any momentum they have and generating more as they curve through the air. The result is a complete system of motion seperate to the generic forward/back/left/right, that rewards players based on their skill at using it, and has a great deal of variable depth in use / actually DOES offer masses of possibilities for unique movement over and above the core movement of the game.
A complex system that arises out of very simple rules. The uses of those physics rules were never intended and nobody could suggest that id should have been able to predict the result when they added them into Quake. Intentionally creating this sort of stuff is very very hard. Now you are suggesting a dodge move and a wall bounce, they're special moves, they are clearly going to be arse bustingly simple to explain and perform. You're either going to press a direction and a button together, or double tap in a direction, the game is going to make your character perform a pre-programmed move that shunts you in that direction, it's something we've all seen before. The question is what game changing depth and complexity is going to arise from the use of these abilities as a skulk?
A dodge <b>move</b>, pretty much by definition of being a move, is a contained predefined action. It is the move that is doing the 'dodging', rather than the player. The implication of this is that since the move itself is the same for everyone, and everyone can perform the move because it is intentionally simple to perform, a certain lack of depth is built right into the mechanic. Any random NSPlayer skulk running forward and then using a 'dodge move' left looks pretty much the same as the next. With hopping, as exact control of every movement is part of the mechanic, an experienced player dodging can turn faster, move quicker and more accurately, based on his technique. Sure you can claim all the depth is in 'when' to dodge... but any argument along those lines applies equally to hopping as well; and since the dodge move is fairly predefined and fights in NS are short, just doing the autopilot dodge itself takes up a significant period of the fight time during which you have reduced or no control over the character. Then there's the question of just how much depth you can infer on the timing of a dodge in an NS fight, which as we've already said doesn't really have any big bang shots to predict and dodge, you're fighting rapid fire hitscan weapons.
Since we're using the terminology of special moves, its time for a Street Fighter analogy. A great deal of the depth in higher level SF play is tied up in what's refered to as footsies and zoning. Footsies and zoning are essentially the deep skills of knowing and controlling range in a fight, moving in and out of you or your opponent's effective ranges, baiting attacks by appearing to come just within range but stopping short. etc. etc. In a sense, dodging. Now these deep skills were not hard coded into SF, there isnt a 'footsies' special move, these terms refer to the broad topic of gameplay which emerges from the simple base rules of the game. There are fighting games that have tried to intentionally code in this type of gameplay by adding things like dodge moves, attacks which go back and then forward again, rolls etc. In all cases the most interesting gameplay has always come from players using the core rules and abilities of the game in varied and inventive ways, instead of relying on a developer coded ability that does the same thing; Because if it's already intentionally coded in there, and you do it by pressing 2 buttons together, you're not very inventive now are you?
Snooggums isn't saying that skulks should only move in straight lines. Bunnyhopping wasn't a "feature" of NS, it came with the game engine and there was nothing ingame to explain how moving your mouse and jumping in a certain way could make the player move faster than normal.
I am a pro-bhop player but if it's not in NS2, we shouldn't cry about it as long as new movement techniques are implemented.
<!--quoteo(post=1781080:date=Jul 20 2010, 12:07 PM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 20 2010, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since we're using the terminology of special moves, its time for a Street Fighter analogy. A great deal of the depth in higher level SF play is tied up in what's refered to as footsies and zoning. Footsies and zoning are essentially the deep skills of knowing and controlling range in a fight, moving in and out of you or your opponent's effective ranges, baiting attacks by appearing to come just within range but stopping short. etc. etc. In a sense, dodging. Now these deep skills were not hard coded into SF, there isnt a 'footsies' special move, these terms refer to the broad topic of gameplay which emerges from the simple base rules of the game. There are fighting games that have tried to intentionally code in this type of gameplay by adding things like dodge moves, attacks which go back and then forward again, rolls etc. In all cases the most interesting gameplay has always come from players using the core rules and abilities of the game in varied and inventive ways, instead of relying on a developer coded ability that does the same thing; Because if it's already intentionally coded in there, and you do it by pressing 2 buttons together, you're not very inventive now are you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My example gives the skulk the abilities comparable to footsies and zoning, more options for movement to 'duck and weave'. An auto-targetted leaping attack that bounces them off a wall first would be comparable to a special attack that involves a feint. I'm not suggesting that for basic movement.
BH is just pushing buttons in a certain order with a certain timing while pointing the mouse in a certain direction. A skulk using side leap, jump, wall walking and other fast movements is doing the same thing with either the same or a few more buttons. The main difference is that the skulk must plan ahead by knowing that he has to be in the right position when they land so that they can execute their next movement to close the ground safely. With BH they can correct in the air, and that would take LESS skill than a series of manual jumps and sidesteps that require the player to know where they will land and what direction to be looking.
I'm actually suggesting something that takes MORE skill than bunny hopping and would allow more skilled players to be more effective as skulks than non-skilled skulks while keeping their ambush and fast attack role in place. Like you said, a few simple items that can be combined to make something complex.
<!--quoteo(post=1781002:date=Jul 20 2010, 04:12 AM:name=WarLover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WarLover @ Jul 20 2010, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As said so many times Bunny hopping is out. It's been "replaced" with what, i'm not sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last I heard for a Forum Post via Dux a while back was Skulk bhop was still in. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=107569&st=0&p=1730475&#entry1730475" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...p;#entry1730475</a>
That being said, most people have been talking how Hive1 Leap lowers the gap of bhop since there's immediately a way to accelerate extremely quickly as a skulk and provide vertical motion. However, it doesn't replace bhop since bhop doesn't require Adrenaline to be spent.
<!--quoteo(post=1781084:date=Jul 20 2010, 07:22 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 20 2010, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My example gives the skulk the abilities comparable to footsies and zoning, more options for movement to 'duck and weave'. An auto-targetted leaping attack that bounces them off a wall first would be comparable to a special attack that involves a feint. I'm not suggesting that for basic movement.
BH is just pushing buttons in a certain order with a certain timing while pointing the mouse in a certain direction. A skulk using side leap, jump, wall walking and other fast movements is doing the same thing with either the same or a few more buttons. The main difference is that the skulk must plan ahead by knowing that he has to be in the right position when they land so that they can execute their next movement to close the ground safely. With BH they can correct in the air, and that would take LESS skill than a series of manual jumps and sidesteps that require the player to know where they will land and what direction to be looking.
I'm actually suggesting something that takes MORE skill than bunny hopping and would allow more skilled players to be more effective as skulks than non-skilled skulks while keeping their ambush and fast attack role in place. Like you said, a few simple items that can be combined to make something complex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the AvP series already did melee vs ranged combat without air control.. and it really didnt work out as well. Freedom of movement is very important in a multiplayer game. Setting something in motion and then having to wait for that move to be finished doesnt lend itself well to the mechanics of muliplayer melee combat. In my view it's as simple as that.
<!--quoteo(post=1781105:date=Jul 20 2010, 06:40 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jul 20 2010, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the AvP series already did melee vs ranged combat without air control.. and it really didnt work out as well. Freedom of movement is very important in a multiplayer game. Setting something in motion and then having to wait for that move to be finished doesnt lend itself well to the mechanics of muliplayer melee combat. In my view it's as simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. In real life you've got natural control over muscles. That allows you to perform extremely precise and complex movements. In games you've most of the time got a binary amount of force and very little control over your exact body balance or movements. At that point air control becomes a decent way to achieve the needed precision.
<!--quoteo(post=1781105:date=Jul 20 2010, 01:40 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jul 20 2010, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the AvP series already did melee vs ranged combat without air control.. and it really didnt work out as well. Freedom of movement is very important in a multiplayer game. Setting something in motion and then having to wait for that move to be finished doesnt lend itself well to the mechanics of muliplayer melee combat. In my view it's as simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for providing a good example, it has been so long since I played that game and the newest one has the failings I would want to avoid.
AVP2 would have done it correctly if it had been faster and more responsive when switching from surface to surface and since it only allowed forward jumping it was difficult to look to the side, leap and then turn back to the target and it did not allow a player to bound from each surface at the moment it touched, instead the player had to hit the jump key. The problem was AVP2 that it was a bit too sticky.
The newest AVP sucked because of the requirement of a warm up before leaping, which I would not want and was the primary reason I did not purchase that game, even before the lame matchmaking system that kept me away from Dawn of War II as well.
NS1 Leap ability's response is what I would be looking for on side to side motion, and I'd also be happy if jumping was 125% of regular ground speed normally so allow for faster movement when not needing to stick to a surface.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1781082:date=Jul 20 2010, 06:09 PM:name=rennex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rennex @ Jul 20 2010, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Snooggums isn't saying that skulks should only move in straight lines. Bunnyhopping wasn't a "feature" of NS, it came with the game engine and there was nothing ingame to explain how moving your mouse and jumping in a certain way could make the player move faster than normal.
I am a pro-bhop player but if it's not in NS2, we shouldn't cry about it as long as new movement techniques are implemented.
And yes dodges are boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think anyone is saying that he's saying skulks should only movie in straight lines. The problem is that his suggestion has a very shallow learning curve.
Bunnyhopping was a feature actually, at least the way I'd define a feature. They could easily have removed it, but instead they decided to balance combat around it.
New movement techniques are great (wallhopping in NS1 is a fine example), but so far none that are worth anything are included in NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that aliens exist in a game is already unreal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you believe there is no intelligent life on one of the billions and millions of planets (in our galaxy alone), at all? Do your probability homework again, pal.
<!--quoteo(post=1781140:date=Jul 20 2010, 03:23 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 20 2010, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anyone is saying that he's saying skulks should only movie in straight lines. The problem is that his suggestion has a very shallow learning curve.
Bunnyhopping was a feature actually, at least the way I'd define a feature. They could easily have removed it, but instead they decided to balance combat around it.
New movement techniques are great (wallhopping in NS1 is a fine example), but so far none that are worth anything are included in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant a feature as in something that is officially documented within the game. I think the first time it would be mentioned is in the patch notes when marine bhop was nerfed?
Anyway I just read the first page of the thread and there is a link to a dev post about bhop still being in the game for skulks. Is there a more recent post contradicting that?
So you believe there is no intelligent life on one of the billions and millions of planets (in our galaxy alone), at all? Do your probability homework again, pal.
---
Taken a bit out of context. Im sorry if i was unclear with the entire sentence.
Laws of physics are another thing. Yes the mere fact *****that aliens exist in a game is already unreal, ***** so that makes any gravity defiance legit?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1781154:date=Jul 20 2010, 10:10 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prefix @ Jul 20 2010, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Also: Fana claiming he has never played for more than 8 hours at a time is hilarious.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...I haven't.
<!--quoteo(post=1781079:date=Jul 20 2010, 08:02 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 20 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other than making the game behave in a semi logical manner? Why adjust to illogical movement just because it has been an unavoidable feature of early FPS game engine design instead of creating a new movement system that allows for similar evasion without the silly looking worming through the air by non-winged creatures as if they had magic anti-gravity powers. BH was only around long enough to become a 'feature' because the NS devs couldn't get rid of it earlier on, but that doesn't mean it needs to be dragged into a new system instead of being replaced with a better looking system that accomplishes the same result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So because its old, looks silly, unreal, not originally intented, it should not be implimented? I dont think ANY of these are valid reasons, surely there could be a better movement system easier to grasp but hundreds of games (after half-life) have yet to achieve equal system, how could UWE now ?
I would love to see other arguments against than "it is too hard" or "unintended exploit".
<!--quoteo(post=1781058:date=Jul 20 2010, 10:01 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 20 2010, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've never played NS 8 hours a day and I can guarantee you that I've still managed to learn all there is to know about bunnyhopping in NS. As pointed out by several posters in this thread, bunnyhopping has a linear learning-to-performance curve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this. It may have a linear learning curve after you've managed to 'grok' the technique, but it certainly has a steep barrier to entry before that, something you admit yourself, although you suggest it's minimal:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just learning it a little gives you a comparable boost in effect. You don't actually practice for months all the while being completely useless in combat and then suddenly become godly. You can still be a casual player and learn bunnyhopping -- jump queuing and an ingame tutorial would be a big help to the small initial learning curve bump as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My own experience suggests it's not as minimal as you might think. I've spent some time going over various tutorials and watching videos on how to execute the move, and, as I mentioned earlier, my attempts tend to lead to me moving backwards rather than forwards. After reading Teoh's explanation of the game mechanics underlying it, I think I may have identified what I'm doing wrong, and I'll have to go back in and see if I can get it working, but all that's is the side point from that initial barrier to entry -- and that is my primary argument against the bunnyhopping mechanic.
After reading Teoh's stuff though, I certainly am coming to see the point of view that there needs to be some sort of skill based mechanic, but it needs to be something that doesn't require tutorials on how to do. Tutorials on how to do well, sure, but if it isn't something that people will intuitively figure out, at least the basics of execution, on their own, then I think it needs to be considered very carefully whether it should be included.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason why you see players completely destroying publics with bunnyhopping is because these are extremely skilled players who have poured hours into practicing and perfecting their game. The problem isn't that bunnyhopping ruins ambushing, the "problem" is that skilled players will easily beat vastly less skilled players. Against equally skilled marines it doesn't work like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this is just further evidence of the barrier to entry. Note it is always the "extremely skilled players" that are using bunnyhop. Novices don't. Why not? Novices should be using every skill that the extremely skilled players are, just at lesser levels, however you can draw a fairly sharp line between "those who can bunnyhop" and "those who can't bunnyhop" -- and that's where the problem lies.
So, and I'd like Teoh to comment on this if you can please as well.
My first idea was to have top speed and maximum acceleration be capped on the floor, maximum acceleration (though not top speed) capped on non-floor surfaces, and no cap at all while in the air. I think this would be a strongly skill based movement mechanic, with the skill being divided somewhat between map knowledge and ability to judge jumps from wall to wall, etc. This mechanic would also be able to be noticed and used rapidly by novice players.
A second idea is to provide a rapid burst of acceleration followed by deceleration upon landing from a jump. Time a second jump right and you maintain the higher speed from the acceleration. Time it wrong (ie, macro or mousewheel it) and a much lesser speed gain (or none at all) is achieved. A lot less deep than the full range of motions required for bunnyhopping, I realize, but far more intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1781218:date=Jul 21 2010, 03:03 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 21 2010, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A second idea is to provide a rapid burst of acceleration followed by deceleration upon landing from a jump. Time a second jump right and you maintain the higher speed from the acceleration. Time it wrong (ie, macro or mousewheel it) and a much lesser speed gain (or none at all) is achieved. A lot less deep than the full range of motions required for bunnyhopping, I realize, but far more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aint this pretty much currect as "burst" is achieved by simple mouse weave and timing jumps correctly will keep the momentum, using higher / lower edges will increase speed? Unless you intent to imply that removing the mouse movement would help it to be more intuitive but that would make it always fast which isnt really always the best choice.
Also I have said this few times already but learning bunnyhob is easy (mwheel / script) whatever you prefer, how to use it in combat / wallhob / dodging / irregularility is the real challenge, like already being said 2 equal players 1v1 marines wins 9/10 when alien bhps straight its not overpowered. I think it should be obvious that a player who pours hours and seeks to improve should be better than the one who does not.
ENSL site ( ensl.org ) has very good guides of NS not using them is just ignorant and foolish.
<!--quoteo(post=1781223:date=Jul 21 2010, 12:27 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 21 2010, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ENSL site ( ensl.org ) has very good guides of NS not using them is just ignorant and foolish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I can kill marines just fine without having to bunnyhop, thank you.
<!--quoteo(post=1781223:date=Jul 21 2010, 01:27 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 21 2010, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I have said this few times already but learning bunnyhob is easy (mwheel / script) whatever you prefer,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is the real problem imo the scripting, that needs to be gone in NS2, if you give people the chance to write scripts there are always those who exploit them to the max.
<!--quoteo(post=1781299:date=Jul 21 2010, 09:38 AM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now that is the real problem imo the scripting, that needs to be gone in NS2, if you give people the chance to write scripts there are always those who exploit them to the max.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have probably no idea of what you are talking about nor scripts, if you didnt know NS2 is a clump of scripts.
Wus wus go find what scripting is about there should be very good posts in this forum that people tend to ignore.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I'm in favour of bunnyhopping as long as no esoteric knowledge of the game engine/interface is needed and as long as it can be replicated by observation.
Take the example of one of the most highly skilled components of NS - a fade chasing and killing a jetpacker. It's insanely difficult to kill a skilled jetpacker, yet what you need to do is reasonably obvious. You have to predict your own movement and the target movement and to do this you need to know the movement characteristics of both and you need to be tuned into the players movement style and have 'gamesense' of where is going to go next. You need to do it in such a way that it makes it difficult for the jetpacker to kill you, because if you just follow a retreating JP/HMG you become a prime target and get shredded to pieces. So this activity has a huge skill ceiling for both participants but everything involved is reasonably intuitive and a player will improve on it by simply practicing it and thinking about.
Now take the example of bunnyhopping - a regular player with good FPS 'twitch' will be lost doing stupid stuff like holding the forward key down and not having an optimal framerate. Why should someone have to google bunnyhopping to understand the quirks. Why should they need 3jump or to change their lifelong habit of using mwheel for weapon switching in order to employ a basic movement ability? Bhop is a fantastic feature of NS and definitely added to the overall value of the game for me and many people, but I always felt there was huge scope for improvement to rewrite it to be designed into the game.
So everything said here about the need for a skill based movement to allow melee players to gain an advantage over ranged players I 100% agree with and I would readily accept that NS1 bunnyhop is better than no bunnyhop at all, but I hope that the mechanism implemented in the end is a lot more intuitive ( intuitive does not necessarily mean easy ). For a start, buffer jumping would remove the need for mwheel or 3jump. Making it less dependent on quirky combinations of strafe and turn would also be a good direction. Also, the max speed attained through bunnyhop could be lowered to about 150% from the NS1 170% to flatten it's impact on balance allowing for general ranged/melee balance to be achievable in a more robust manner.
<!--quoteo(post=1781328:date=Jul 21 2010, 11:59 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 21 2010, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have probably no idea of what you are talking about nor scripts, if you didnt know NS2 is a clump of scripts.
Wus wus go find what scripting is about there should be very good posts in this forum that people tend to ignore.
/edit typos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahaha I know exactly what i'm talking about, Scripting as in calling scripts from keybinds setup via the autoexec.cfg or anything you wanted to redirect the files too.cfg. I know what LUA is and its not bind mwheeldown +jump,+jump,+jump or whatever people used.
Comments
But judging by the number of people in the "for" camp, there is a distinct possibility that what I said could happen will. Also for there to have been "official" word that its not in, before gameplay testing has begun would be a bit odd. To strive to not include it would be a goal. To just not put it in, officially say that its definately not in, then to find (possibly) that without it in combined with whatever other changes are that the game that there is a bias to ranged weapons, would be a major foot-in-mouth moment.
I know thats an extreme situation above. Anyway my point is that gameplay should take presidence over atmosphere. Regardless of what is found to be the best gameplay.
I honestly don't understand how alot of people found the original so much fun to be this interested in the sequel if, to their mind, it was broken to the extent that they become animalistic in their persuit of getting what they want.
Most have also skimmed over the question I asked about what made NS great for them, its been out there for about a week now, and the one guy who actually answered it was again, attacked. It is quite a shame.
From what I understand, removing air acceleration from the game is actually more work than not. For some reason the "normal" movement model includes air acceleration by default.
<!--quoteo(post=1781048:date=Jul 20 2010, 04:09 PM:name=DarkFrost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 20 2010, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I honestly don't understand how alot of people found the original so much fun to be this interested in the sequel if, to their mind, it was broken to the extent that they become animalistic in their persuit of getting what they want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really understand why, but it's no news that the topic of bunnyhopping makes some people throw away normal reasoning. Even when the NS community was at its most active state, you'd regularly have someone start a thread on this forum shouting about how bunnyhopping was cheating and that it should be removed from the game.
Informing them that it was left in the game intentionally by the developers to balance combat didn't make any difference in their minds. "It's still cheating! *froth*" I always wondered if those people really understood the meaning of cheating or if they simply didn't care because they hated bunnyhopping so intensely. Cheating is doing something outside of the rules of the game. When it's intentionally left in the game, that means it's inside of the rules.
I don't understand why you snipped off the rest of my post:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then there are several ways to allow for evasion on attack while not making skulks fly around like they have wings:
Base speed increased, when running (shift held down) make tapping strafe a sidestep (like a double tap in Tekken) on a single keystroke or a gentle slide if held down. So as you are running down a hall you tap to strafe right and it leaps extremely quickly to the side about 6 feet, possibly sticking to a wall. Much harder to hit, more intuitive than doing figure eights with your mouse or whatever was required for BH, and easy for new players to pick up so they can then spend the time learning a logical skill that the devs can easily adjust by increasing or decreasing movement speed and side stepping distance to allow for balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you notice, I was proposing a method of replicating the ability to move erratically in the game intentionally. Maybe the leap could be shift+left instead of tapping left. Maybe it could be bound to its own key. Maybe holding space down would cause an instant jump when touching any surface allowing for movement similar to bunny hopping without the 'air control' by moving extremely fast in short bursts that the player could easily control.
By insisting that BH is more in depth because it isn't an intended part of the game is ridiculous. In NS1 the skulk was only so fast because people could BH instead of allowing for general faster movement or the development of a quick strafing or jumping system that allowed for similar movement. Is it wrong for a marine to see a skulk move in a way that gives away their next movement? That's how nature works, certain motions precede certain actions, and if the skulk is allowed to make that movement extremely quickly on purpose then the marine would have to be highly skilled to see and react to that movement.
Basically, I want a skulk to have the ability to quickly move in various directions in a logical and intentional, easy to use manner that can have adjustments (faster side leaping, forward or strafing movements) to balance instead of having to work around the divide between the casual player and those that play it 8 hours a day. The system should still reward skill developed over time (a less skilled player will be repetitive or move predictably vs a skilled player who is unpredictable) by giving multiple avenues of movement choices that don't apply while in the air since a skulk does not have anything that would suggest air control like wings. Instead it should leap and bound fast enough in regular movement to accomplish the same thing when the player makes good decisions on where to go, and then reserve an leaping attack for intentional damage.
Without the quote he left out the context and his response treated the proposed jump like leap from NS1. Instead, it could be combined with a forward leap since the movement leap is its own thing. Here's a more in depth example with some additional details that could be used as examples.
Side leap only works while moving forward and requires contact with a surface as it redirects the momentum by using the legs, let's say there is a .2 second forward movement button press requirement for it to work so a player can't hit forward, side leap instantly with a script.
<i>Leap</i> is an attack that causes damage and will be referred to as LEAP for clarity.
Jumping with the space bar moves the player forward through the air in an arc the way the player is facing.
There is no air control, all movement is dependent on facing when touching a surface. Air control is un-intuative because it causes the skulk to behave like it has wings, Marines shouldn't have air control either. Only winged creatures or ones with magical flying powers (Fade) should.
Skulk is approaching down a hallway with a marine at the other end. The skulk uses a crate as cover as they start the approach, then side leaps to one of the walls. The marine starts firing and the skulk leaps sideways again up to the ceiling, and hits the spacebar so that when they hit the ceiling it drops them to the ground, where they side leap to another wall, whole time approaching the marine quickly. Since the skulk can side leap at will they can get closer to the marine and then leap to the side and use LEAP to finally attack suddenly from a different direction. The entire time the skulk will have to use a surface to redirect, and the marine, also unable to change direction in the air, will not have the option to bound around to avoid the bite of the skulk.
The skill involved on both sides is reaction speed, using the environment and prediction of the enemy and correctly represents a non-winged fast moving creature vs a slower, raged weapon using marine. Sure, it pigeonholes the skulk to some degree by forcing it to comply with its class, just like a heavy armor isn't a fast moving hopper. Of course the side stepping wouldn't be effective in an open room, and it shouldn't be. Skulks are ambushers and close range fighters, who should be hitting marines where they are unsafe, in close tight areas, or supporting other lifeforms that can distract or incapacitate marines.
I've never played NS 8 hours a day and I can guarantee you that I've still managed to learn all there is to know about bunnyhopping in NS. As pointed out by several posters in this thread, bunnyhopping has a linear learning-to-performance curve. Just learning it a little gives you a comparable boost in effect. You don't actually practice for months all the while being completely useless in combat and then suddenly become godly. You can still be a casual player and learn bunnyhopping -- jump queuing and an ingame tutorial would be a big help to the small initial learning curve bump as well.
I think it's great that you've somehow found the miraculous solution to replacing bunnyhopping that has eluded thousands of game developers for the past two decades though... (to be clear: your proposed system doesn't actually have a deep learning curve. You mash buttons and the game does the moves for you. Please read this:
<!--quoteo(post=1777641:date=Jul 10 2010, 03:59 AM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 10 2010, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to replace bunnyhopping in a game that requires a complex movement skillset, you need to create something that dramatically scales with practice and technique; gives results which vary wildly based on the player's ability; fits into the current gameplay in a way that still allows you to think about and perform everything that you would normally be doing <b>at the same time</b>; and is unique and varied enough for people to develop in different ways such that they can feel as though it is part of their personal gameplay. In effect, you need to add something that is equivalent to aiming and prediction - because whatever you add will become 'aiming' for melee aliens. This is why something as simple and binary as a UT dodge move, or a sprint button does not cut it. Ideas like this are the spawn of people who don't understand the problem they are trying to solve - it's not about "making skulks faster". If it was, you'd just <b>make them faster</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1781057:date=Jul 20 2010, 04:58 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 20 2010, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are ambushers and close range fighters, who should be hitting marines where they are unsafe, in close tight areas, or supporting other lifeforms that can distract or incapacitate marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a terribly boring game to me. The more you limit a class the less fun it is to play. Ambushing is still the preferred method of attack in NS, even for bunnyhopping experts -- the game is balanced naturally that way without having to remove a movement system that adds a lot of depth to the game.
The reason why you see players completely destroying publics with bunnyhopping is because these are extremely skilled players who have poured hours into practicing and perfecting their game. The problem isn't that bunnyhopping ruins ambushing, the "problem" is that skilled players will easily beat vastly less skilled players. Against equally skilled marines it doesn't work like that.
There's no point in making logical / predictable movement, hell I bet the marine are next one to get nerf? If you want to play tetris with 1 type of cube its ok, but I recommend another game. There has been tons of good sides to bhopping and movement in general mentioned here, only one thing against (which someone might disagree) I'm too lazy to repeat them.
Other than making the game behave in a semi logical manner? Why adjust to illogical movement just because it has been an unavoidable feature of early FPS game engine design instead of creating a new movement system that allows for similar evasion without the silly looking worming through the air by non-winged creatures as if they had magic anti-gravity powers. BH was only around long enough to become a 'feature' because the NS devs couldn't get rid of it earlier on, but that doesn't mean it needs to be dragged into a new system instead of being replaced with a better looking system that accomplishes the same result.
I did, but lets elaborate.
Bunnyhopping and QW air control are names for a general complete system of movement, a way of manipulating speed that can be applied in countless ways to enhance play. A UT dodge technique is not a general system of movement, it is a <b>special move</b>. Special moves are rigid, usually quite binary things that are coded into a game, they're fairly easy to think up and impliment, they're usually quite easy to explain to people, and for the most part the 'commands' to perform them are always simple enough for anyone to grasp. Special moves themselves however, are really not very interesting, what matters is the gameplay that results from them...
In Quakeworld/HL/NS1, there are 2 movement related 'special moves' - by which i mean intentionally hard coded physics rules, that result in the current motion. The first is instant jumping, you've no delay on landing before you can jump again, and speed reduction due to ground friction is based on time spent on the ground. The second is air brakes, you can create a really tiny amount of momentum in the air by pressing in any direction, but this change in momentum is massively boosted whenever you press in a direction that opposes your current motion. Allowing you to press back to stop in the air if you're jumping forward.
These 2 'special moves' do not seem very interesting at all, they're fairly simple to explain and understand, there's certainly no real difficulty or skill in performing them, and at first glance they don't seem very important at all. These 2 rules are responsible for all the motion you see in the previously linked youtube vids, the instant jumping allows any speed to be carried from one jump to the next, and the 'airbrakes' when manipulated in a certain way allow characters to slingshot around, changing the angle of any momentum they have and generating more as they curve through the air. The result is a complete system of motion seperate to the generic forward/back/left/right, that rewards players based on their skill at using it, and has a great deal of variable depth in use / actually DOES offer masses of possibilities for unique movement over and above the core movement of the game.
A complex system that arises out of very simple rules. The uses of those physics rules were never intended and nobody could suggest that id should have been able to predict the result when they added them into Quake. Intentionally creating this sort of stuff is very very hard. Now you are suggesting a dodge move and a wall bounce, they're special moves, they are clearly going to be arse bustingly simple to explain and perform. You're either going to press a direction and a button together, or double tap in a direction, the game is going to make your character perform a pre-programmed move that shunts you in that direction, it's something we've all seen before. The question is what game changing depth and complexity is going to arise from the use of these abilities as a skulk?
A dodge <b>move</b>, pretty much by definition of being a move, is a contained predefined action. It is the move that is doing the 'dodging', rather than the player. The implication of this is that since the move itself is the same for everyone, and everyone can perform the move because it is intentionally simple to perform, a certain lack of depth is built right into the mechanic. Any random NSPlayer skulk running forward and then using a 'dodge move' left looks pretty much the same as the next. With hopping, as exact control of every movement is part of the mechanic, an experienced player dodging can turn faster, move quicker and more accurately, based on his technique. Sure you can claim all the depth is in 'when' to dodge... but any argument along those lines applies equally to hopping as well; and since the dodge move is fairly predefined and fights in NS are short, just doing the autopilot dodge itself takes up a significant period of the fight time during which you have reduced or no control over the character. Then there's the question of just how much depth you can infer on the timing of a dodge in an NS fight, which as we've already said doesn't really have any big bang shots to predict and dodge, you're fighting rapid fire hitscan weapons.
Since we're using the terminology of special moves, its time for a Street Fighter analogy. A great deal of the depth in higher level SF play is tied up in what's refered to as footsies and zoning. Footsies and zoning are essentially the deep skills of knowing and controlling range in a fight, moving in and out of you or your opponent's effective ranges, baiting attacks by appearing to come just within range but stopping short. etc. etc. In a sense, dodging. Now these deep skills were not hard coded into SF, there isnt a 'footsies' special move, these terms refer to the broad topic of gameplay which emerges from the simple base rules of the game. There are fighting games that have tried to intentionally code in this type of gameplay by adding things like dodge moves, attacks which go back and then forward again, rolls etc. In all cases the most interesting gameplay has always come from players using the core rules and abilities of the game in varied and inventive ways, instead of relying on a developer coded ability that does the same thing; Because if it's already intentionally coded in there, and you do it by pressing 2 buttons together, you're not very inventive now are you?
I am a pro-bhop player but if it's not in NS2, we shouldn't cry about it as long as new movement techniques are implemented.
And yes dodges are boring.
My example gives the skulk the abilities comparable to footsies and zoning, more options for movement to 'duck and weave'. An auto-targetted leaping attack that bounces them off a wall first would be comparable to a special attack that involves a feint. I'm not suggesting that for basic movement.
BH is just pushing buttons in a certain order with a certain timing while pointing the mouse in a certain direction. A skulk using side leap, jump, wall walking and other fast movements is doing the same thing with either the same or a few more buttons. The main difference is that the skulk must plan ahead by knowing that he has to be in the right position when they land so that they can execute their next movement to close the ground safely. With BH they can correct in the air, and that would take LESS skill than a series of manual jumps and sidesteps that require the player to know where they will land and what direction to be looking.
I'm actually suggesting something that takes MORE skill than bunny hopping and would allow more skilled players to be more effective as skulks than non-skilled skulks while keeping their ambush and fast attack role in place. Like you said, a few simple items that can be combined to make something complex.
Last I heard for a Forum Post via Dux a while back was Skulk bhop was still in.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=107569&st=0&p=1730475&#entry1730475" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...p;#entry1730475</a>
That being said, most people have been talking how Hive1 Leap lowers the gap of bhop since there's immediately a way to accelerate extremely quickly as a skulk and provide vertical motion. However, it doesn't replace bhop since bhop doesn't require Adrenaline to be spent.
BH is just pushing buttons in a certain order with a certain timing while pointing the mouse in a certain direction. A skulk using side leap, jump, wall walking and other fast movements is doing the same thing with either the same or a few more buttons. The main difference is that the skulk must plan ahead by knowing that he has to be in the right position when they land so that they can execute their next movement to close the ground safely. With BH they can correct in the air, and that would take LESS skill than a series of manual jumps and sidesteps that require the player to know where they will land and what direction to be looking.
I'm actually suggesting something that takes MORE skill than bunny hopping and would allow more skilled players to be more effective as skulks than non-skilled skulks while keeping their ambush and fast attack role in place. Like you said, a few simple items that can be combined to make something complex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the AvP series already did melee vs ranged combat without air control.. and it really didnt work out as well. Freedom of movement is very important in a multiplayer game. Setting something in motion and then having to wait for that move to be finished doesnt lend itself well to the mechanics of muliplayer melee combat. In my view it's as simple as that.
Yeah. In real life you've got natural control over muscles. That allows you to perform extremely precise and complex movements. In games you've most of the time got a binary amount of force and very little control over your exact body balance or movements. At that point air control becomes a decent way to achieve the needed precision.
Thank you for providing a good example, it has been so long since I played that game and the newest one has the failings I would want to avoid.
AVP2 would have done it correctly if it had been faster and more responsive when switching from surface to surface and since it only allowed forward jumping it was difficult to look to the side, leap and then turn back to the target and it did not allow a player to bound from each surface at the moment it touched, instead the player had to hit the jump key. The problem was AVP2 that it was a bit too sticky.
The newest AVP sucked because of the requirement of a warm up before leaping, which I would not want and was the primary reason I did not purchase that game, even before the lame matchmaking system that kept me away from Dawn of War II as well.
NS1 Leap ability's response is what I would be looking for on side to side motion, and I'd also be happy if jumping was 125% of regular ground speed normally so allow for faster movement when not needing to stick to a surface.
I am a pro-bhop player but if it's not in NS2, we shouldn't cry about it as long as new movement techniques are implemented.
And yes dodges are boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone is saying that he's saying skulks should only movie in straight lines. The problem is that his suggestion has a very shallow learning curve.
Bunnyhopping was a feature actually, at least the way I'd define a feature. They could easily have removed it, but instead they decided to balance combat around it.
New movement techniques are great (wallhopping in NS1 is a fine example), but so far none that are worth anything are included in NS2.
So you believe there is no intelligent life on one of the billions and millions of planets (in our galaxy alone), at all?
Do your probability homework again, pal.
Bunnyhopping was a feature actually, at least the way I'd define a feature. They could easily have removed it, but instead they decided to balance combat around it.
New movement techniques are great (wallhopping in NS1 is a fine example), but so far none that are worth anything are included in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant a feature as in something that is officially documented within the game. I think the first time it would be mentioned is in the patch notes when marine bhop was nerfed?
Anyway I just read the first page of the thread and there is a link to a dev post about bhop still being in the game for skulks. Is there a more recent post contradicting that?
So you believe there is no intelligent life on one of the billions and millions of planets (in our galaxy alone), at all?
Do your probability homework again, pal.
---
Taken a bit out of context. Im sorry if i was unclear with the entire sentence.
Laws of physics are another thing. Yes the mere fact *****that aliens exist in a game is already unreal, *****
so that makes any gravity defiance legit?
This argument is still topping the threads?
Get over it bunny hopping is awesome, isn't that advantageous and isn't going to be included in NS2 in the same way.
(Also: Fana claiming he has never played for more than 8 hours at a time is hilarious.)
...I haven't.
But I guess you would know right?
So because its old, looks silly, unreal, not originally intented, it should not be implimented? I dont think ANY of these are valid reasons, surely there could be a better movement system easier to grasp but hundreds of games (after half-life) have yet to achieve equal system, how could UWE now ?
I would love to see other arguments against than "it is too hard" or "unintended exploit".
But I guess you would know right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why you had to contradict him, right?
I disagree with this. It may have a linear learning curve after you've managed to 'grok' the technique, but it certainly has a steep barrier to entry before that, something you admit yourself, although you suggest it's minimal:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just learning it a little gives you a comparable boost in effect. You don't actually practice for months all the while being completely useless in combat and then suddenly become godly. You can still be a casual player and learn bunnyhopping -- jump queuing and an ingame tutorial would be a big help to the small initial learning curve bump as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My own experience suggests it's not as minimal as you might think. I've spent some time going over various tutorials and watching videos on how to execute the move, and, as I mentioned earlier, my attempts tend to lead to me moving backwards rather than forwards. After reading Teoh's explanation of the game mechanics underlying it, I think I may have identified what I'm doing wrong, and I'll have to go back in and see if I can get it working, but all that's is the side point from that initial barrier to entry -- and that is my primary argument against the bunnyhopping mechanic.
After reading Teoh's stuff though, I certainly am coming to see the point of view that there needs to be some sort of skill based mechanic, but it needs to be something that doesn't require tutorials on how to do. Tutorials on how to do well, sure, but if it isn't something that people will intuitively figure out, at least the basics of execution, on their own, then I think it needs to be considered very carefully whether it should be included.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason why you see players completely destroying publics with bunnyhopping is because these are extremely skilled players who have poured hours into practicing and perfecting their game. The problem isn't that bunnyhopping ruins ambushing, the "problem" is that skilled players will easily beat vastly less skilled players. Against equally skilled marines it doesn't work like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this is just further evidence of the barrier to entry. Note it is always the "extremely skilled players" that are using bunnyhop. Novices don't. Why not? Novices should be using every skill that the extremely skilled players are, just at lesser levels, however you can draw a fairly sharp line between "those who can bunnyhop" and "those who can't bunnyhop" -- and that's where the problem lies.
So, and I'd like Teoh to comment on this if you can please as well.
My first idea was to have top speed and maximum acceleration be capped on the floor, maximum acceleration (though not top speed) capped on non-floor surfaces, and no cap at all while in the air. I think this would be a strongly skill based movement mechanic, with the skill being divided somewhat between map knowledge and ability to judge jumps from wall to wall, etc. This mechanic would also be able to be noticed and used rapidly by novice players.
A second idea is to provide a rapid burst of acceleration followed by deceleration upon landing from a jump. Time a second jump right and you maintain the higher speed from the acceleration. Time it wrong (ie, macro or mousewheel it) and a much lesser speed gain (or none at all) is achieved. A lot less deep than the full range of motions required for bunnyhopping, I realize, but far more intuitive.
Thoughts?
Aint this pretty much currect as "burst" is achieved by simple mouse weave and timing jumps correctly will keep the momentum, using higher / lower edges will increase speed? Unless you intent to imply that removing the mouse movement would help it to be more intuitive but that would make it always fast which isnt really always the best choice.
Also I have said this few times already but learning bunnyhob is easy (mwheel / script) whatever you prefer, how to use it in combat / wallhob / dodging / irregularility is the real challenge, like already being said 2 equal players 1v1 marines wins 9/10 when alien bhps straight its not overpowered. I think it should be obvious that a player who pours hours and seeks to improve should be better than the one who does not.
ENSL site ( ensl.org ) has very good guides of NS not using them is just ignorant and foolish.
Really? I can kill marines just fine without having to bunnyhop, thank you.
Now that is the real problem imo the scripting, that needs to be gone in NS2, if you give people the chance to write scripts there are always those who exploit them to the max.
You have probably no idea of what you are talking about nor scripts, if you didnt know NS2 is a clump of scripts.
Wus wus go find what scripting is about there should be very good posts in this forum that people tend to ignore.
/edit typos
Take the example of one of the most highly skilled components of NS - a fade chasing and killing a jetpacker. It's insanely difficult to kill a skilled jetpacker, yet what you need to do is reasonably obvious. You have to predict your own movement and the target movement and to do this you need to know the movement characteristics of both and you need to be tuned into the players movement style and have 'gamesense' of where is going to go next. You need to do it in such a way that it makes it difficult for the jetpacker to kill you, because if you just follow a retreating JP/HMG you become a prime target and get shredded to pieces. So this activity has a huge skill ceiling for both participants but everything involved is reasonably intuitive and a player will improve on it by simply practicing it and thinking about.
Now take the example of bunnyhopping - a regular player with good FPS 'twitch' will be lost doing stupid stuff like holding the forward key down and not having an optimal framerate. Why should someone have to google bunnyhopping to understand the quirks. Why should they need 3jump or to change their lifelong habit of using mwheel for weapon switching in order to employ a basic movement ability? Bhop is a fantastic feature of NS and definitely added to the overall value of the game for me and many people, but I always felt there was huge scope for improvement to rewrite it to be designed into the game.
So everything said here about the need for a skill based movement to allow melee players to gain an advantage over ranged players I 100% agree with and I would readily accept that NS1 bunnyhop is better than no bunnyhop at all, but I hope that the mechanism implemented in the end is a lot more intuitive ( intuitive does not necessarily mean easy ). For a start, buffer jumping would remove the need for mwheel or 3jump. Making it less dependent on quirky combinations of strafe and turn would also be a good direction. Also, the max speed attained through bunnyhop could be lowered to about 150% from the NS1 170% to flatten it's impact on balance allowing for general ranged/melee balance to be achievable in a more robust manner.
Wus wus go find what scripting is about there should be very good posts in this forum that people tend to ignore.
/edit typos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahaha I know exactly what i'm talking about, Scripting as in calling scripts from keybinds setup via the autoexec.cfg or anything you wanted to redirect the files too.cfg. I know what LUA is and its not bind mwheeldown +jump,+jump,+jump or whatever people used.