<!--quoteo(post=1772654:date=May 28 2010, 02:24 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ May 28 2010, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and here i thought i'd be actually good. realizing that you instictively exploited an unknown to you bug is... depressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol. It's one of those things you assume is just skill since you tend to live longer.
Unfortunately, one of my buddies used to do it so many times a bunch of us started to predict it and be able to follow his movements.
The fact that the Source Engine inherits this bug is funny in CSS, I dont like the game but had ago with mates. The Perdiction code is so bad that when the enemey is strafing left I found that I could get a headsot with a sniper rifle by aiming at the wast to the Right of the model after a change of direction.
So yeh, most of that bhopping you thought was skill isnt :D Just valves ###### netcode :O
unless leap has no adren cost and is nearly silent, it's not going to ever replace bhop especially since bhop could stack on top of leap, celerity, blink, what have you. To those debating about useless things such as its place and level of skill - it doesn't matter; what matters was that it become a core part of game mechanics, so much so it was a necessary skill to even compete at higher levels of play (and yes it was a skill as much as blinking, pancaking, circle-strafing, etc).
Perhaps in NS2 they've removed or shifted the high dependency on movement skill (they've hinted at this with larger models and smaller maps), but either way I'm sure any bhoo reincarnation will be playtested vigorously.
<!--quoteo(post=1772726:date=May 28 2010, 08:49 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ May 28 2010, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->unless leap has no adren cost and is nearly silent, it's not going to ever replace bhop especially since bhop could stack on top of leap, celerity, blink, what have you. To those debating about useless things such as its place and level of skill - it doesn't matter; what matters was that it become a core part of game mechanics, so much so it was a necessary skill to even compete at higher levels of play (and yes it was a skill as much as blinking, pancaking, circle-strafing, etc).
Perhaps in NS2 they've removed or shifted the high dependency on movement skill (they've hinted at this with larger models and smaller maps), but either way I'm sure any bhoo reincarnation will be playtested vigorously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No actually. The only reason it was "left in" is because at the time, nobody knew how to "code out" Bunny Hopping in the HL Engine.
Valve has stated that it was never intended. When HL3(CS2) comes around, I'm sure jumping will be more like real Human physics; so no magical curving in the air.
I think if it is intended to only leave Bunny Hopping in just for the Skulks, put a limitation on it. Say like... you can not turn more than 45 degrees after your initial jump point.
Also if you know anything about the hitboxes and netcode of Valve games(lets take CSS/TF2 as an example), you would know how badly the hitboxes get skewed very quickly when doing any direction changing; especially when doing the Bunny Hop movement.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1772809:date=May 29 2010, 06:09 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No actually. The only reason it was "left in" is because at the time, nobody knew how to "code out" Bunny Hopping in the HL Engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes no sense. They did successfully prevent marines from bunnyhopping (except in specific scenarios). They could just as well have done so for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1772809:date=May 29 2010, 05:09 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No actually. The only reason it was "left in" is because at the time, nobody knew how to "code out" Bunny Hopping in the HL Engine.
Valve has stated that it was never intended. When HL3(CS2) comes around, I'm sure jumping will be more like real Human physics; so no magical curving in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) In NS bunny-hopping was intentionally left in for Aliens and intentionally removed for Marines after version 1.04. There are a ton of different ways to code around it, as shown by the fact that Day of Defeat, Counter Strike and NS (marines) all employ different methods.
2) It's not from GoldSrc/Valve, it's an artifact of the original Quake engine. Its possible because you can generate forward/backward and lateral momentum, midair. The reason it exists is best explained via an example:
Lets say your player is up against a crate, they jump straight up in an effort to scale it. In the real world this wouldn't work, cause once they are airborne they can't start moving forward. So in the engine you give players a lot of air control, so that way while they are on their way up they can move forward and get on top of the crate/platform/etc.
Looking Left while Strafing Left, or the oppostie.
No it was never coded out. I can fire up NS1 right now and defy logic with air movement.
However, I failed to mention(and nobody realized/noticed) that, defining "Bunny Hopping" is using the movment method above while <b>gaining speed in the air</b> completely unhindered.
If you do not gain speed in the air then it is just Circle Jumping. NS1 has this mostly fixed, but as a Marine you can alternate Jump Heights and by using crouch, to still Bunny Hop. But it is not a "true BHOP"(or a completely unhindered Bunny Hop), because they can be hindered if they jump from the same plane of surface more than once.
And yeah I know it was carried over from the Quake to HL/TFC transfer. Quake the source of all things good and bad(and Doom <3).
You got these 3:
Circle Jumping Strafe Jumping Bunny Hopping
There is a distinct difference.
*****
Anyways... yes I would actually like Straight Jumping as a Marine.
*****
Also, actually if you were to jump perfectly straight up, you can still shift the center mass of the body midair. Yes you would still be able to scale the box, as long as you are not trying to move more than an extra inch in the air.
Games get around this extreme technicality by having "climbing over obstacles", like in Rainbow Six.
Forgot to add, all this debate is around to make the Jetpack the only means of true freedom of movement for the Marines.
If as a Marine you could do 5 seconds of tricky jumping to get out of the map, or somewhere on the ceiling into an Alien only vent in the very start of the game, game becomes inbalanced.
The same reason I think Marines should not be able to stand on each other to stack up onto boxes. This nullifies the Onos completely basically. If Marines can't stack up, then the Onos is a valid combat class until Jetpack Tech comes out.
Also the game becomes more skill based if you cant Superman move across the map. You actually have to aim where you want to move through the air(I do note that you can strafe in 360 degrees of motion to jump, regardless of your visual orientation).
*****
I doubt when someone asks for Bunny Hopping, they are asking for True Bunny Hopping(unlimited gaining of speed); unless of course they are an older player like me that knows what they are saying =).
I hope marines have some kind of movement skill in NS2 available to them from the get-go or through very early tech, so it wouldn't be jetpacks. Maybe something like jumpjets which would provide for a quick boost to avoid a bite and it may even b eon the tech tree to jetpacks. The player skill would come from the timing of the jet-jump rather than a hidden or repetitive mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1772828:date=May 30 2010, 04:07 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ May 30 2010, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope marines have some kind of movement skill in NS2 available to them from the get-go or through very early tech, so it wouldn't be jetpacks. Maybe something like jumpjets which would provide for a quick boost to avoid a bite and it may even b eon the tech tree to jetpacks. The player skill would come from the timing of the jet-jump rather than a hidden or repetitive mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I think it exteremely important to recognize the role of marine movement in NS. The whole dynamic positioning and movement system is part of the core of NS' depth in firefights.
I'd still appreciate the dodging movement having some kind of tradeoff, so that it doesn't become a completely automatic response in every encouter. In NS the aiming/dodging tradeoff and the variations of executing the jump helped to create easily recognizable playstyles. I can probably still recognize some players by their style and use of jump. That kind of personal play style is one of the reasons why Starcraft is still so popular and why people still keep spectating it.
Double tap +leftstrafe/+rightstrafe/+backward to do a mini-dodge A LA UT style?
I can see that. Obviouslly you shouldn't be allowed to dodge +forward, because that is what Sprint is for.
Here is hoping that you can Sprint and then strafe/look in any direction you want, the tradeoff being that you lower you gun which takes about 1 second to re-shoulder.
<!--quoteo(post=1772827:date=May 29 2010, 08:26 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I doubt when someone asks for Bunny Hopping, they are asking for True Bunny Hopping(unlimited gaining of speed); unless of course they are an older player like me that knows what they are saying =).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh there are lots of olde people who want True Bunny hop. =]
Quick strafe would be an interesting alternative, although it always felt a little awkward to me in UT. Guess I wasn't pro enough in UT.
<!--quoteo(post=1772870:date=May 30 2010, 08:37 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ May 30 2010, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quick strafe would be an interesting alternative, although it always felt a little awkward to me in UT. Guess I wasn't pro enough in UT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never felt that comfy with it either. It kinda lacks the precision and adaptibility you get with mouse controlled movement. Of course with more practice everything gets fluent, but it still felt pretty one dimensional and clunky compared to systems that HL and Quake have.
<!--quoteo(post=1772809:date=May 29 2010, 06:09 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No actually. The only reason it was "left in" is because at the time, nobody knew how to "code out" Bunny Hopping in the HL Engine.
Valve has stated that it was never intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of those are incorrect. Every time a bunnyhopping thread come up here people argue this point for pages when it simply isn't true. Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping when making TFC to add depth. Bunnyhopping was also quickly adjusted or removed in all HL mods, including NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1772889:date=May 31 2010, 10:17 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ May 31 2010, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both of those are incorrect. Every time a bunnyhopping thread come up here people argue this point for pages when it simply isn't true. Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping when making TFC to add depth. Bunnyhopping was also quickly adjusted or removed in all HL mods, including NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1772889:date=May 31 2010, 12:17 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ May 31 2010, 12:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both of those are incorrect. Every time a bunnyhopping thread come up here people argue this point for pages when it simply isn't true. Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping when making TFC to add depth. Bunnyhopping was also quickly adjusted or removed in all HL mods, including NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the second part of his statement held some truth as they never put it in there intentionally, which is what he alluded to. Keeping it in later is a separate point.
The fact that you have to learn the netcode of the game to properly understand tactics is a good example of why bhopping should be dropped, but imma noob and my opinion doesnt matter.
<!--quoteo(post=1772901:date=May 31 2010, 08:12 AM:name=Kamakazie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kamakazie @ May 31 2010, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that you have to learn the netcode of the game to properly understand tactics is a good example of why bhopping should be dropped, but imma noob and my opinion doesnt matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you carefully read my response to the netcode claims, you can actually see that bhopping isn't abusing netcode. If NS simply didn't have bhop, the more advanced players would be doing a lot more hitbox desyncing on the ground, which is 10x worse for the netcode.
Right now bhop is giving players an option to minimize the time they are exposed to the fire. _Without_ such features the players would be just trying to figure out how to sponge bullets under fire, which is exactly where the netcode abuse comes into play. If anything, bhop encourages people to play in a way that the HL netcode _CAN_ handle to a reasonable extend.
<!--quoteo(post=1772892:date=May 31 2010, 12:53 AM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ May 31 2010, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uhh.. no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was originally a bug for quake TF, sure, but when Robin Walker made TFC he knew about bunny hopping and kept it because it was a game mechanic that added depth. At the time it was only limited to the german scene then it spread to america and got popular and out of control so valve tested a patch with clans to limit the ground speed but keep the skill, which was eventually added in I think 1.4.
I don't see how this is hard to believe when valve intentionally kept and nerfed both bhopping and concing in the game, both originally unintentional mechanics from quake TF.
I have a suggestion: try to mod in no air control into the engine test/alpha or whatever it is and see how much you like it. I assure you it'll just feel.. worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1772991:date=Jun 1 2010, 03:27 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 1 2010, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a suggestion: try to mod in no air control into the engine test/alpha or whatever it is and see how much you like it. I assure you it'll just feel.. worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't be that bad if other features were added to replace the old need of air control. Dodging can be implemented so marines can jump/push themselves off of walls or edges. Momentum would be carried with jumps, requiring marines/aliens to actually have running starts when trying to cross a larger gap. And a system to climb ledges would also need to be implemented (like grabbing onto a railing and pulling yourself up it).
I think we as gamers have gotten far to used to air control in games and I think there should be at least an attempt at exploring better options.
<!--quoteo(post=1772994:date=Jun 1 2010, 11:59 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Jun 1 2010, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wouldn't be that bad if other features were added to replace the old need of air control. Dodging can be implemented so marines can jump/push themselves off of walls or edges. Momentum would be carried with jumps, requiring marines/aliens to actually have running starts when trying to cross a larger gap. And a system to climb ledges would also need to be implemented (like grabbing onto a railing and pulling yourself up it).
I think we as gamers have gotten far to used to air control in games and I think there should be at least an attempt at exploring better options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On marines you can get away with various systems, at least to some level of functionality. Melee based aliens on the other hand seem extremely tricky to implement without air curve. At least I've never felt particularly comfortable with any melee system not using air curve. You simply end up getting sidestepped/gunned down while approaching in even a bit of open terrain.
<!--quoteo(post=1772999:date=Jun 1 2010, 07:51 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 1 2010, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just want to point out that leap without aircontrol was already in the AvP games, and those played horribly compared to what we're used to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree, if there is no air control the game just feels really wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1772889:date=May 30 2010, 07:17 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ May 30 2010, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both of those are incorrect. Every time a bunnyhopping thread come up here people argue this point for pages when it simply isn't true. Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping when making TFC to add depth. Bunnyhopping was also quickly adjusted or removed in all HL mods, including NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They did not intentionally keep it in TFC, it was carried over from the Quake Engine/Code.
Gabe/Valve stated that it wasn't worth developement cost to code out Bunny Hopping on the HL Engine; even after a few years later aknowledging that it exists and that it is an Exploit.
Sigh...
You could argue why HL2 haves it, and Source Engine games, but probably the same reasons as stated above(plus now actually for nostalgia).
However, there is no True Bunny Hop in any official Valve Source game(uncapped air-control speed increase + without using a Sprint key, just Jump and Mouse Movements). (HL2 is the closest simulation if you use perfect/scripted timing of sprint with jumping.)
<!--quoteo(post=1772999:date=Jun 1 2010, 05:51 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 1 2010, 05:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just want to point out that leap without aircontrol was already in the AvP games, and those played horribly compared to what we're used to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
U were just a bad Alien then, using Leap in the wrong way.
Always Leaping in the wide open to cross the map is guaranteed to get you killed, easy newbie mistake.
Especially when the Marines got the Rocket Launcher and the Preds with the Dics and Plasma Caster(or Speargun for the real pros).
I think you should be able to turn your head orientation mid flight, and then where you land your body reorientates to where you are looking; but not air control.
*****
How bout this, no more 180 degrees air movement change, unless it is of course like a Superman Fade ability. If not, I want my Turok Forward/Backward+Diagonal-Look Movement Speed Increase while on the ground.
Yeah, lets just add every possible movement trick/exploit into the game from all previous "Grandfather FPSs"; I'm sure you will all love it for those who have never tried them before(/sarcasm).
I thought games were meant to be fun, not 'realistic'. There's a reason why certain fps games became more popular in mulitplayer than others, and I assure you whether they had air control or not did matter a lot. It's basically a matter of whether you as a new (or more experienced) player can affect what happens to your character. The more you can directly do the better it is, rather than acting once and then letting things play out - something that greatly favours more experienced players over anyone else regardless of innate talent etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1773051:date=Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jun 1 2010, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They did not intentionally keep it in TFC, it was carried over from the Quake Engine/Code.
Gabe/Valve stated that it wasn't worth developement cost to code out Bunny Hopping on the HL Engine; even after a few years later aknowledging that it exists and that it is an Exploit.
Sigh...
You could argue why HL2 haves it, and Source Engine games, but probably the same reasons as stated above(plus now actually for nostalgia).
However, there is no True Bunny Hop in any official Valve Source game(uncapped air-control speed increase + without using a Sprint key, just Jump and Mouse Movements). (HL2 is the closest simulation if you use perfect/scripted timing of sprint with jumping.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> CS:S has bunnyhopping. Like cs, the proper timing negates the jump handicap.
As for valve's position on it, I really doubt it wasn't taken out due to development costs. All it takes is a ground speed cap, which many games added. I think valve's knowledge and position on it is mixed and has changed over time. At the beginning, valve obviously intentionally kept it, because after a tfc clan showed the rest of valve it and the speed potential it had, the clan tested the patch to limit the speed to a speed still much above normal running speed. The same people stated that the lead dev knew about it from quake TF but kept it. I remember a tf2 interview where he talked about it but can't find it. Obviously they're against it now. This is a bit off topic as valve's position has little relevance anyway.
Comments
realizing that you instictively exploited an unknown to you bug is... depressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol. It's one of those things you assume is just skill since you tend to live longer.
Unfortunately, one of my buddies used to do it so many times a bunch of us started to predict it and be able to follow his movements.
The Perdiction code is so bad that when the enemey is strafing left I found that I could get a headsot with a sniper rifle by aiming at the wast to the Right of the model after a change of direction.
So yeh, most of that bhopping you thought was skill isnt :D Just valves ###### netcode :O
Perhaps in NS2 they've removed or shifted the high dependency on movement skill (they've hinted at this with larger models and smaller maps), but either way I'm sure any bhoo reincarnation will be playtested vigorously.
Perhaps in NS2 they've removed or shifted the high dependency on movement skill (they've hinted at this with larger models and smaller maps), but either way I'm sure any bhoo reincarnation will be playtested vigorously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No actually. The only reason it was "left in" is because at the time, nobody knew how to "code out" Bunny Hopping in the HL Engine.
Valve has stated that it was never intended. When HL3(CS2) comes around, I'm sure jumping will be more like real Human physics; so no magical curving in the air.
I think if it is intended to only leave Bunny Hopping in just for the Skulks, put a limitation on it. Say like... you can not turn more than 45 degrees after your initial jump point.
Also if you know anything about the hitboxes and netcode of Valve games(lets take CSS/TF2 as an example), you would know how badly the hitboxes get skewed very quickly when doing any direction changing; especially when doing the Bunny Hop movement.
That makes no sense. They did successfully prevent marines from bunnyhopping (except in specific scenarios). They could just as well have done so for aliens.
Valve has stated that it was never intended. When HL3(CS2) comes around, I'm sure jumping will be more like real Human physics; so no magical curving in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) In NS bunny-hopping was intentionally left in for Aliens and intentionally removed for Marines after version 1.04. There are a ton of different ways to code around it, as shown by the fact that Day of Defeat, Counter Strike and NS (marines) all employ different methods.
2) It's not from GoldSrc/Valve, it's an artifact of the original Quake engine. Its possible because you can generate forward/backward and lateral momentum, midair. The reason it exists is best explained via an example:
Lets say your player is up against a crate, they jump straight up in an effort to scale it. In the real world this wouldn't work, cause once they are airborne they can't start moving forward. So in the engine you give players a lot of air control, so that way while they are on their way up they can move forward and get on top of the crate/platform/etc.
Looking Left while Strafing Left, or the oppostie.
No it was never coded out. I can fire up NS1 right now and defy logic with air movement.
However, I failed to mention(and nobody realized/noticed) that, defining "Bunny Hopping" is using the movment method above while <b>gaining speed in the air</b> completely unhindered.
If you do not gain speed in the air then it is just Circle Jumping. NS1 has this mostly fixed, but as a Marine you can alternate Jump Heights and by using crouch, to still Bunny Hop. But it is not a "true BHOP"(or a completely unhindered Bunny Hop), because they can be hindered if they jump from the same plane of surface more than once.
And yeah I know it was carried over from the Quake to HL/TFC transfer. Quake the source of all things good and bad(and Doom <3).
You got these 3:
Circle Jumping
Strafe Jumping
Bunny Hopping
There is a distinct difference.
*****
Anyways... yes I would actually like Straight Jumping as a Marine.
*****
Also, actually if you were to jump perfectly straight up, you can still shift the center mass of the body midair. Yes you would still be able to scale the box, as long as you are not trying to move more than an extra inch in the air.
Games get around this extreme technicality by having "climbing over obstacles", like in Rainbow Six.
=)
If as a Marine you could do 5 seconds of tricky jumping to get out of the map, or somewhere on the ceiling into an Alien only vent in the very start of the game, game becomes inbalanced.
The same reason I think Marines should not be able to stand on each other to stack up onto boxes. This nullifies the Onos completely basically. If Marines can't stack up, then the Onos is a valid combat class until Jetpack Tech comes out.
Also the game becomes more skill based if you cant Superman move across the map. You actually have to aim where you want to move through the air(I do note that you can strafe in 360 degrees of motion to jump, regardless of your visual orientation).
*****
I doubt when someone asks for Bunny Hopping, they are asking for True Bunny Hopping(unlimited gaining of speed); unless of course they are an older player like me that knows what they are saying =).
*****
Just stating that everyone should clarify.
Yeah, I think it exteremely important to recognize the role of marine movement in NS. The whole dynamic positioning and movement system is part of the core of NS' depth in firefights.
I'd still appreciate the dodging movement having some kind of tradeoff, so that it doesn't become a completely automatic response in every encouter. In NS the aiming/dodging tradeoff and the variations of executing the jump helped to create easily recognizable playstyles. I can probably still recognize some players by their style and use of jump. That kind of personal play style is one of the reasons why Starcraft is still so popular and why people still keep spectating it.
I can see that. Obviouslly you shouldn't be allowed to dodge +forward, because that is what Sprint is for.
Here is hoping that you can Sprint and then strafe/look in any direction you want, the tradeoff being that you lower you gun which takes about 1 second to re-shoulder.
Oh there are lots of olde people who want True Bunny hop. =]
Quick strafe would be an interesting alternative, although it always felt a little awkward to me in UT. Guess I wasn't pro enough in UT.
I never felt that comfy with it either. It kinda lacks the precision and adaptibility you get with mouse controlled movement. Of course with more practice everything gets fluent, but it still felt pretty one dimensional and clunky compared to systems that HL and Quake have.
Valve has stated that it was never intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of those are incorrect. Every time a bunnyhopping thread come up here people argue this point for pages when it simply isn't true. Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping when making TFC to add depth. Bunnyhopping was also quickly adjusted or removed in all HL mods, including NS.
uhh.. no.
I think the second part of his statement held some truth as they never put it in there intentionally, which is what he alluded to. Keeping it in later is a separate point.
If you carefully read my response to the netcode claims, you can actually see that bhopping isn't abusing netcode. If NS simply didn't have bhop, the more advanced players would be doing a lot more hitbox desyncing on the ground, which is 10x worse for the netcode.
Right now bhop is giving players an option to minimize the time they are exposed to the fire. _Without_ such features the players would be just trying to figure out how to sponge bullets under fire, which is exactly where the netcode abuse comes into play. If anything, bhop encourages people to play in a way that the HL netcode _CAN_ handle to a reasonable extend.
It was originally a bug for quake TF, sure, but when Robin Walker made TFC he knew about bunny hopping and kept it because it was a game mechanic that added depth. At the time it was only limited to the german scene then it spread to america and got popular and out of control so valve tested a patch with clans to limit the ground speed but keep the skill, which was eventually added in I think 1.4.
I don't see how this is hard to believe when valve intentionally kept and nerfed both bhopping and concing in the game, both originally unintentional mechanics from quake TF.
It wouldn't be that bad if other features were added to replace the old need of air control. Dodging can be implemented so marines can jump/push themselves off of walls or edges. Momentum would be carried with jumps, requiring marines/aliens to actually have running starts when trying to cross a larger gap. And a system to climb ledges would also need to be implemented (like grabbing onto a railing and pulling yourself up it).
I think we as gamers have gotten far to used to air control in games and I think there should be at least an attempt at exploring better options.
I think we as gamers have gotten far to used to air control in games and I think there should be at least an attempt at exploring better options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On marines you can get away with various systems, at least to some level of functionality. Melee based aliens on the other hand seem extremely tricky to implement without air curve. At least I've never felt particularly comfortable with any melee system not using air curve. You simply end up getting sidestepped/gunned down while approaching in even a bit of open terrain.
i agree, if there is no air control the game just feels really wrong.
They did not intentionally keep it in TFC, it was carried over from the Quake Engine/Code.
Gabe/Valve stated that it wasn't worth developement cost to code out Bunny Hopping on the HL Engine; even after a few years later aknowledging that it exists and that it is an Exploit.
Sigh...
You could argue why HL2 haves it, and Source Engine games, but probably the same reasons as stated above(plus now actually for nostalgia).
However, there is no True Bunny Hop in any official Valve Source game(uncapped air-control speed increase + without using a Sprint key, just Jump and Mouse Movements). (HL2 is the closest simulation if you use perfect/scripted timing of sprint with jumping.)
TF2 would make all the Freshmen cry if it did.
U were just a bad Alien then, using Leap in the wrong way.
Always Leaping in the wide open to cross the map is guaranteed to get you killed, easy newbie mistake.
Especially when the Marines got the Rocket Launcher and the Preds with the Dics and Plasma Caster(or Speargun for the real pros).
I think you should be able to turn your head orientation mid flight, and then where you land your body reorientates to where you are looking; but not air control.
*****
How bout this, no more 180 degrees air movement change, unless it is of course like a Superman Fade ability. If not, I want my Turok Forward/Backward+Diagonal-Look Movement Speed Increase while on the ground.
Yeah, lets just add every possible movement trick/exploit into the game from all previous "Grandfather FPSs"; I'm sure you will all love it for those who have never tried them before(/sarcasm).
Gabe/Valve stated that it wasn't worth developement cost to code out Bunny Hopping on the HL Engine; even after a few years later aknowledging that it exists and that it is an Exploit.
Sigh...
You could argue why HL2 haves it, and Source Engine games, but probably the same reasons as stated above(plus now actually for nostalgia).
However, there is no True Bunny Hop in any official Valve Source game(uncapped air-control speed increase + without using a Sprint key, just Jump and Mouse Movements). (HL2 is the closest simulation if you use perfect/scripted timing of sprint with jumping.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS:S has bunnyhopping. Like cs, the proper timing negates the jump handicap.
As for valve's position on it, I really doubt it wasn't taken out due to development costs. All it takes is a ground speed cap, which many games added. I think valve's knowledge and position on it is mixed and has changed over time. At the beginning, valve obviously intentionally kept it, because after a tfc clan showed the rest of valve it and the speed potential it had, the clan tested the patch to limit the speed to a speed still much above normal running speed. The same people stated that the lead dev knew about it from quake TF but kept it. I remember a tf2 interview where he talked about it but can't find it. Obviously they're against it now. This is a bit off topic as valve's position has little relevance anyway.