<!--quoteo(post=1810561:date=Nov 26 2010, 12:43 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 26 2010, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This game doesn't claim realism. Shotguns are most effective at very close range (almost point blank) in most all games with shotguns, and hallways like the one in the picture below are mid- to long-range.
An alien should take full damage from a shotgun when it's at around the green arrow or closer. It should take hardly any damage when it's near the red arrow. And, unsurprisingly, that's the way it is now. I'd guess that that's because the rifle fills the role of all-range-combat, and the shotgun is designed to work as a close-quarters-dominant weapon.
/sarcasm But yeah, they should really up the clip-size to 8 or more so people who can't aim have even more chances at missing the one shot it would take to kill a lerk or skulk (without rine upgrades), and the 3 shots it takes to kill a fade in close range. That's much better than altering the damage-falloff or cone of fire of a weapon with a reasonably sized number of shots before reload, should the need arise. /sarcasm off
It's not the 8 shots as such I oppose, but the need for having 8 shots (in this game) in the first place. It's overkill imo.
I'd like for shotguns to have a more accurate firemode, wide spread is good for close up but for any sort of distance it gets kinda silly. Makes the gun feel really dinky and unreliable because you do kinda random damage based on whether the spread hits a lot or misses completely.
Default should be a relatively tight grouping, but with big damage falloff so even if you hit you don't do much actual damage at range, but you do the same damage at the same range each time, then you should be able to fire it like a scattergun as an alternate mode for panic situations, maybe as the secondary fire.
Just copy the picture and use the pipette in you graphic programms :X
ITs #B3E126 or RGB (179,255,38) => its a greenish yellow.
Based on the surrounding colors in the screenshot ppl would call it yellow.
On Topic:
The shotgun should still hit with nearly 100% of the bullets at the point the crosshair is... its a shotgun and NOT your hand throwing lots of little stones at aliens - a shotgun doesnt spread THAT heavy. - if thats adjusted there wouldnt be the need of increased clip size.
No no i didnt mean the spread should be the circle around the crosshair... (spread should still increase the longer the distance) i just meant instead of the yellow arrow the point at the crosshair is aiming (rails) should still be around 80-100% hits on a skulk
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c</a> i want those ammo types :O
<!--quoteo(post=1810742:date=Nov 26 2010, 09:43 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 26 2010, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No no i didnt mean the spread should be the circle around the crosshair... (spread should still increase the longer the distance)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, it would.
See the crosshair doesn't get smaller when placed over things a long way away, but everything else does get smaller at a distance due to perspective scaling. Or to put it another way, the crosshair covers a bigger area at a long distance, and a smaller area at a short distance.
So crosshair can and should indicate spread, which is also basically what you said because at that distance the crosshair is probably about the size of a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1810718:date=Nov 26 2010, 09:32 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 26 2010, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The shotgun should still hit with nearly 100% of the bullets at the point the crosshair is... its a shotgun and NOT your hand throwing lots of little stones at aliens - a shotgun doesnt spread THAT heavy. - if thats adjusted there wouldnt be the need of increased clip size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It does hit with most of the bullets at that point, and it deals appropriate damage considering that's short- to mid-range. Shotguns in most videogames do spread that heavily. Not because it's realistic, but because it's fun and necessary to give the weapon it's own niche. It can one-shot someone, but only when you're really close, therefore it's really bad over range. People don't understand logic.
<!--quoteo(post=1810646:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:56 AM:name=samurai_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (samurai_jeff @ Nov 26 2010, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Definitely yellow T_T<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kind of: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lime, also traditionally known as lime green or lime-green, is a color three-fourths of the way between yellow and green (closer to yellow than to green), so named because it is a representation of the color of the citrus fruit called limes. It is the color that is half way between the web color chartreuse and yellow on the color wheel<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> P.S.: You guys have too much spare time.
It can and should be bad at range, but what it shouldn't be is random. Wide spread makes it random how many hits you get, makes the gun unreliable. A weak gun is acceptable but one that is unreliable is annoying because it leads to people dying due to bad luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1810765:date=Nov 26 2010, 07:23 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It can and should be bad at range, but what it shouldn't be is random. Wide spread makes it random how many hits you get, makes the gun unreliable. A weak gun is acceptable but one that is unreliable is annoying because it leads to people dying due to bad luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then don't shoot till you've closed in >_> i do think the shotgun's spread is too wide, but not by much.
<!--quoteo(post=1810765:date=Nov 26 2010, 12:23 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wide spread makes it random how many hits you get, makes the gun unreliable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it is your aim that "makes it random" if the weapon has fixed spread. Now if it has random spread that would be bad, but I have not found any information on that, please show your sources if you have any, I'd be interested.
<!--quoteo(post=1810755:date=Nov 26 2010, 06:14 AM:name=FluffyM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FluffyM @ Nov 26 2010, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns in most videogames...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The solution does not come from copying another games implementation. Other games must balance all of their weapons with respect to each other, where the genre of their game also plays a major part.
Instead we need to examine NS2 <b><u>only</u></b>. So lets look at the pistol and rifle first. Both weapons show emphasis for heavy damage and accuracy at the longest ranges you can find in NS2 maps currently.
The shotgun (a tier 2 researched weapon) performs significantly worse then the tier 1 weapons. It deals high damage at < 4 ft (where all distances after result in non-lethal spread about the width of the room), has a slow rate of fire, slow reload, only 6 shots in the weapon, and only 18 loose in your pocket. Therefore our shotgun is a "long" range axe whose purpose is killing whips (which obviously can't be chopped down at close range with a standard axe, and ironically the rifle is more useful for this job). O right some people say it's good against a fade... i say, yes if lag doesn't eat up your shots, if your < 4 ft from the fade, and the fade is a noob (or other players are also shooting at him). Otherwise the assault rifle, pistol, grenade launcher, and flamethrower are all truly better against fades.
To fix the shotgun, the maximum effective range must be massively extended which means the spread must be massively constricted. We will also need more ammo in the gun and at least 30 shotgun shells loose in your pockets.
Alternatively we can make the gl researchable with only 1 cc and just limit the max ammo to be unlocked via researchable levels. In this case the use of the massively nerfed marine shotgun can be limited, because the long range highly-accurate high-damage rifle-grenades are infinitely more useful.
DJ SplendidJoin Date: 2010-08-14Member: 73629Members, Constellation
..which would hail the return of the gameplay-defeating shotgun rush!
Yay?
Methink bad. Before we even get into the issue of public server play as opposed to team vs team. Which is such a massive weapons-grade can of worms I'm just not going to take part until it's version 1.5 and we have an idea how big the active community is.
<!--quoteo(post=1810961:date=Nov 26 2010, 07:18 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 26 2010, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The solution does not come from copying another games implementation. Other games must balance all of their weapons with respect to each other, where the genre of their game also plays a major part.
Instead we need to examine NS2 <b><u>only</u></b>. So lets look at the pistol and rifle first. Both weapons show emphasis for heavy damage and accuracy at the longest ranges you can find in NS2 maps currently.
The shotgun (a tier 2 researched weapon) performs significantly worse then the tier 1 weapons. It deals high damage at < 4 ft (where all distances after result in non-lethal spread about the width of the room), has a slow rate of fire, slow reload, only 6 shots in the weapon, and only 18 loose in your pocket. Therefore our shotgun is a "long" range axe whose purpose is killing whips (which obviously can't be chopped down at close range with a standard axe, and ironically the rifle is more useful for this job). O right some people say it's good against a fade... i say, yes if lag doesn't eat up your shots, if your < 4 ft from the fade, and the fade is a noob (or other players are also shooting at him). Otherwise the assault rifle, pistol, grenade launcher, and flamethrower are all truly better against fades.
To fix the shotgun, the maximum effective range must be massively extended which means the spread must be massively constricted. We will also need more ammo in the gun and at least 30 shotgun shells loose in your pockets.
Alternatively we can make the gl researchable with only 1 cc and just limit the max ammo to be unlocked via researchable levels. In this case the use of the massively nerfed marine shotgun can be limited, because the long range highly-accurate high-damage rifle-grenades are infinitely more useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually the LMG is pretty bad at long range right now. Pistol has a non-trivial bullet spread too, you can't snipe lerks from down hallways anymore. Right now the max effective range of the LMG is probably around the distance of an upgraded skulk leap, and the pistol only a little further.
<!--quoteo(post=1810961:date=Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The solution does not come from copying another games implementation. Other games must balance all of their weapons with respect to each other, where the genre of their game also plays a major part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Other games balance their shotguns based on common sense (and so does NS2 at this point). In BC2 there was a shotgun-perk-combination which allowed people to one-shot others from as far a distance away (comparatively) as you are asking for here. First servers banned people for using it, then -I'm fairly sure- they patched it out in some way. Not because it's not realistic, but because it's retarded and no fun to get one-shot with a notorious close-quarters-combat weapon over range.
<!--quoteo(post=1810961:date=Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes if lag doesn't eat up your shots<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm afraid I don't have that issue, and the shotgun rapes. Umadubad?
<!--quoteo(post=1810961:date=Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So lets look at the pistol and rifle first. Both weapons show emphasis for heavy damage and accuracy at the longest ranges you can find in NS2 maps currently.
The shotgun (a tier 2 researched weapon) performs significantly worse then the tier 1 weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you've done it, I give up. For my own sanity's sake. If someone else wants to take over explaining (again!) how the shotgun is not "significantly worse" than the tier 1 weapons in any way, feel free. YJDK.
Once the lag etc is ironed out it should be very easy to try a lot of combinations to see which works reasonably - TheCaptain put together an interesting looking 'balance mod' already and I'm sure there'll be lots of others. Chris' suggestion seemed best (I think it was his) with the reasonable spread and damage fall off - since that's what most shotguns have now (I think) - especially if there's a 'sawn-off'-effect panic mode for a horrid spread (when you just need to fire and don't quite know where your target is), that sounds quite jolly. Plus as an alien it wouldn't be too bad as you'd be unlikely to take many 'panic' pellets unless you had the shotgun in your mouth anyway, so it wouldn't be too annoying to play against.
<!--quoteo(post=1811128:date=Nov 27 2010, 11:31 AM:name=FluffyM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FluffyM @ Nov 27 2010, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other games balance their shotguns based on common sense (and so does NS2 at this point). In BC2 there was a shotgun-perk-combination which allowed people to one-shot others from as far a distance away (comparatively) as you are asking for here. First servers banned people for using it, then -I'm fairly sure- they patched it out in some way. Not because it's not realistic, but because it's retarded and no fun to get one-shot with a notorious close-quarters-combat weapon over range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its still in and possible because its slug ammunition which is basically a long range high velocity bullet. Slugs are ment to be "long" (about 300m with this generation) range but "suck" at close range because if you miss everything will kill you due to reload time. With slug ammunition a shotgun is no longer close combat. What was wrong with it was the bullet drop and recoil of auto-shotguns over long distances and this has been addressed.
But blaming a weapon that is no longer close combat by a perk for not being close combat is not really making sense, and therefore it's still in. So much for "common sense". Of course a shotgun should not be effective over long distance by itself but there is nothing wrong with it when using slugs. You simply loose your close combat spread, which would make shotguns nearly useless versus Skulks but effective versus Lerks.
BUT: of course we are not talking about Slugs in NS2. Therefore the shotgun should be devastating at close range and if it really is we cannot say for sure. But what is sure is that it performs worse because of the "mass" bulding spam + Lerks which cannot be countered with shotguns. But we can only really talk about its balance once lag and fps drop issue are sorted out and especially once the tech trees are finally so we can see when shotguns are available and how long they remain effective compared to the rest of the weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1811223:date=Nov 27 2010, 08:34 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Nov 27 2010, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about making the shotgun the default, starting weapon and upgrade to get the LMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like a recipe for 1min spawncamp
<!--quoteo(post=1810768:date=Nov 26 2010, 11:48 AM:name=FluffyM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FluffyM @ Nov 26 2010, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it is your aim that "makes it random" if the weapon has fixed spread. Now if it has random spread that would be bad, but I have not found any information on that, please show your sources if you have any, I'd be interested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bullets have a random distribution within the spread.
So if the spread is larger than your targets, sometimes you might get more hitting than other times.
<!--quoteo(post=1811171:date=Nov 27 2010, 02:42 PM:name=Bobby is going home)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bobby is going home @ Nov 27 2010, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What was wrong with it was the bullet drop and recoil of auto-shotguns over long distances and this has been addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It has been addressed is the main point, it was wrong for both reasons as far as I'm concerned (I'm a strong believer in fixed roles and niches for weapons and classes, as that is what creates a requirement for variation, equaling teamplay [at best]), then again BC2 is a pseudo-realistic game and shotguns don't fall off/spread by far as drastically IRL as they do in games, so I guess you're right about that being fair enough for that game.
<!--quoteo(post=1811295:date=Nov 27 2010, 10:50 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 27 2010, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One shot on a skulk is instant kill now at close range. Or it seems to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And on lerks. Which started this whole discussion off in the first place; it's (rightfully) very powerful in close range, it doesn't need a bigger clip.
<!--quoteo(post=1811360:date=Nov 28 2010, 03:51 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 28 2010, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bullets have a random distribution within the spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Urgh, hate random spread :/ You got any official documentation on that or something (not that I'm doubting you, just wanna know why they think it's a good idea)?
Actually, I do like the solution proposed earlier - give the shotgun two different firing modes, one for how it is now, and one to tighten the spread. This also makes the model make more sense from an aesthetic standpoint as well.
Make the spread as it is now come out of the lower (barrel? I know this isn't a tube mag, so...), and make it semi-automatic as an excellent panic button. Then allow the user to switch to the top barrel for a pump action mode with much tighter spread and slightly reduced drop off. Tweak the time to change firing modes as requires to prevent abuse of the modes and I think the shotgun would be fine, make sense, and fit with the multirole theme NS2 seems to be going for with the Marines.
As it stands now, it's easier to simply shoot a few bullets with the AR at a Skulk and then bash it as it leaps at me, then it is to deal with the shotgun. The ability to bash for half a skulks health in general just obliterates any use the shotgun has for me -it's just too limited a weapons platform.
"Inferred rendering system" sounds interesting from reading this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference</a> my guess is it has with occlusion culling to do. that it's an algorithm to keep occlusion queries down by not "asking" about polygons that are determined to "obviously be part of the next frame". like looking straight at a crate in the middle of an empty room, and then player-view turns 5° - crate is obviously still gonna be there...
but could be something else, other ideas? in any case, hope it brings fps improvements!
Comments
This game doesn't claim realism.
Shotguns are most effective at very close range (almost point blank) in most all games with shotguns, and hallways like the one in the picture below are mid- to long-range.
<a href="http://img593.imageshack.us/i/83628074.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4061/83628074.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
An alien should take full damage from a shotgun when it's at around the green arrow or closer. It should take hardly any damage when it's near the red arrow.
And, unsurprisingly, that's the way it is now. I'd guess that that's because the rifle fills the role of all-range-combat, and the shotgun is designed to work as a close-quarters-dominant weapon.
/sarcasm
But yeah, they should really up the clip-size to 8 or more so people who can't aim have even more chances at missing the one shot it would take to kill a lerk or skulk (without rine upgrades), and the 3 shots it takes to kill a fade in close range. That's much better than altering the damage-falloff or cone of fire of a weapon with a reasonably sized number of shots before reload, should the need arise.
/sarcasm off
It's not the 8 shots as such I oppose, but the need for having 8 shots (in this game) in the first place. It's overkill imo.
I'd like for shotguns to have a more accurate firemode, wide spread is good for close up but for any sort of distance it gets kinda silly. Makes the gun feel really dinky and unreliable because you do kinda random damage based on whether the spread hits a lot or misses completely.
Default should be a relatively tight grouping, but with big damage falloff so even if you hit you don't do much actual damage at range, but you do the same damage at the same range each time, then you should be able to fire it like a scattergun as an alternate mode for panic situations, maybe as the secondary fire.
ITs #B3E126 or RGB (179,255,38) => its a greenish yellow.
Based on the surrounding colors in the screenshot ppl would call it yellow.
On Topic:
The shotgun should still hit with nearly 100% of the bullets at the point the crosshair is... its a shotgun and NOT your hand throwing lots of little stones at aliens - a shotgun doesnt spread THAT heavy. - if thats adjusted there wouldnt be the need of increased clip size.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c</a> i want those ammo types :O
Erm, it would.
See the crosshair doesn't get smaller when placed over things a long way away, but everything else does get smaller at a distance due to perspective scaling. Or to put it another way, the crosshair covers a bigger area at a long distance, and a smaller area at a short distance.
So crosshair can and should indicate spread, which is also basically what you said because at that distance the crosshair is probably about the size of a skulk.
It does hit with most of the bullets at that point, and it deals appropriate damage considering that's short- to mid-range.
Shotguns in most videogames do spread that heavily. Not because it's realistic, but because it's fun and necessary to give the weapon it's own niche. It can one-shot someone, but only when you're really close, therefore it's really bad over range. People don't understand logic.
<!--quoteo(post=1810646:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:56 AM:name=samurai_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (samurai_jeff @ Nov 26 2010, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Definitely yellow T_T<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kind of:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lime, also traditionally known as lime green or lime-green, is a color three-fourths of the way between yellow and green (closer to yellow than to green), so named because it is a representation of the color of the citrus fruit called limes. It is the color that is half way between the web color chartreuse and yellow on the color wheel<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
P.S.: You guys have too much spare time.
then don't shoot till you've closed in >_> i do think the shotgun's spread is too wide, but not by much.
Actually it is your aim that "makes it random" if the weapon has fixed spread. Now if it has random spread that would be bad, but I have not found any information on that, please show your sources if you have any, I'd be interested.
For me the aliens seem better off in terms of reg, except maybe the fade where primary fire seems to be very effective at times and not at others.
The skulk is working very well at the moment, and you can take down marines with relative ease.
The solution does not come from copying another games implementation. Other games must balance all of their weapons with respect to each other, where the genre of their game also plays a major part.
Instead we need to examine NS2 <b><u>only</u></b>. So lets look at the pistol and rifle first. Both weapons show emphasis for heavy damage and accuracy at the longest ranges you can find in NS2 maps currently.
The shotgun (a tier 2 researched weapon) performs significantly worse then the tier 1 weapons. It deals high damage at < 4 ft (where all distances after result in non-lethal spread about the width of the room), has a slow rate of fire, slow reload, only 6 shots in the weapon, and only 18 loose in your pocket. Therefore our shotgun is a "long" range axe whose purpose is killing whips (which obviously can't be chopped down at close range with a standard axe, and ironically the rifle is more useful for this job). O right some people say it's good against a fade... i say, yes if lag doesn't eat up your shots, if your < 4 ft from the fade, and the fade is a noob (or other players are also shooting at him). Otherwise the assault rifle, pistol, grenade launcher, and flamethrower are all truly better against fades.
To fix the shotgun, the maximum effective range must be massively extended which means the spread must be massively constricted. We will also need more ammo in the gun and at least 30 shotgun shells loose in your pockets.
Alternatively we can make the gl researchable with only 1 cc and just limit the max ammo to be unlocked via researchable levels. In this case the use of the massively nerfed marine shotgun can be limited, because the long range highly-accurate high-damage rifle-grenades are infinitely more useful.
Yay?
Methink bad. Before we even get into the issue of public server play as opposed to team vs team. Which is such a massive weapons-grade can of worms I'm just not going to take part until it's version 1.5 and we have an idea how big the active community is.
Instead we need to examine NS2 <b><u>only</u></b>. So lets look at the pistol and rifle first. Both weapons show emphasis for heavy damage and accuracy at the longest ranges you can find in NS2 maps currently.
The shotgun (a tier 2 researched weapon) performs significantly worse then the tier 1 weapons. It deals high damage at < 4 ft (where all distances after result in non-lethal spread about the width of the room), has a slow rate of fire, slow reload, only 6 shots in the weapon, and only 18 loose in your pocket. Therefore our shotgun is a "long" range axe whose purpose is killing whips (which obviously can't be chopped down at close range with a standard axe, and ironically the rifle is more useful for this job). O right some people say it's good against a fade... i say, yes if lag doesn't eat up your shots, if your < 4 ft from the fade, and the fade is a noob (or other players are also shooting at him). Otherwise the assault rifle, pistol, grenade launcher, and flamethrower are all truly better against fades.
To fix the shotgun, the maximum effective range must be massively extended which means the spread must be massively constricted. We will also need more ammo in the gun and at least 30 shotgun shells loose in your pockets.
Alternatively we can make the gl researchable with only 1 cc and just limit the max ammo to be unlocked via researchable levels. In this case the use of the massively nerfed marine shotgun can be limited, because the long range highly-accurate high-damage rifle-grenades are infinitely more useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually the LMG is pretty bad at long range right now. Pistol has a non-trivial bullet spread too, you can't snipe lerks from down hallways anymore. Right now the max effective range of the LMG is probably around the distance of an upgraded skulk leap, and the pistol only a little further.
Other games balance their shotguns based on common sense (and so does NS2 at this point). In BC2 there was a shotgun-perk-combination which allowed people to one-shot others from as far a distance away (comparatively) as you are asking for here. First servers banned people for using it, then -I'm fairly sure- they patched it out in some way. Not because it's not realistic, but because it's retarded and no fun to get one-shot with a notorious close-quarters-combat weapon over range.
<!--quoteo(post=1810961:date=Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes if lag doesn't eat up your shots<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid I don't have that issue, and the shotgun rapes. Umadubad?
<!--quoteo(post=1810961:date=Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 27 2010, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So lets look at the pistol and rifle first. Both weapons show emphasis for heavy damage and accuracy at the longest ranges you can find in NS2 maps currently.
The shotgun (a tier 2 researched weapon) performs significantly worse then the tier 1 weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you've done it, I give up. For my own sanity's sake. If someone else wants to take over explaining (again!) how the shotgun is not "significantly worse" than the tier 1 weapons in any way, feel free. YJDK.
Its still in and possible because its slug ammunition which is basically a long range high velocity bullet. Slugs are ment to be "long" (about 300m with this generation) range but "suck" at close range because if you miss everything will kill you due to reload time. With slug ammunition a shotgun is no longer close combat.
What was wrong with it was the bullet drop and recoil of auto-shotguns over long distances and this has been addressed.
But blaming a weapon that is no longer close combat by a perk for not being close combat is not really making sense, and therefore it's still in. So much for "common sense".
Of course a shotgun should not be effective over long distance by itself but there is nothing wrong with it when using slugs. You simply loose your close combat spread, which would make shotguns nearly useless versus Skulks but effective versus Lerks.
BUT: of course we are not talking about Slugs in NS2. Therefore the shotgun should be devastating at close range and if it really is we cannot say for sure. But what is sure is that it performs worse because of the "mass" bulding spam + Lerks which cannot be countered with shotguns.
But we can only really talk about its balance once lag and fps drop issue are sorted out and especially once the tech trees are finally so we can see when shotguns are available and how long they remain effective compared to the rest of the weapons.
Sounds like a recipe for 1min spawncamp
Nerfing marines makes them stronger?
The bullets have a random distribution within the spread.
So if the spread is larger than your targets, sometimes you might get more hitting than other times.
Like I said, random.
It has been addressed is the main point, it was wrong for both reasons as far as I'm concerned (I'm a strong believer in fixed roles and niches for weapons and classes, as that is what creates a requirement for variation, equaling teamplay [at best]), then again BC2 is a pseudo-realistic game and shotguns don't fall off/spread by far as drastically IRL as they do in games, so I guess you're right about that being fair enough for that game.
<!--quoteo(post=1811295:date=Nov 27 2010, 10:50 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 27 2010, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One shot on a skulk is instant kill now at close range. Or it seems to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on lerks. Which started this whole discussion off in the first place; it's (rightfully) very powerful in close range, it doesn't need a bigger clip.
<!--quoteo(post=1811360:date=Nov 28 2010, 03:51 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 28 2010, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bullets have a random distribution within the spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Urgh, hate random spread :/
You got any official documentation on that or something (not that I'm doubting you, just wanna know why they think it's a good idea)?
Make the spread as it is now come out of the lower (barrel? I know this isn't a tube mag, so...), and make it semi-automatic as an excellent panic button. Then allow the user to switch to the top barrel for a pump action mode with much tighter spread and slightly reduced drop off. Tweak the time to change firing modes as requires to prevent abuse of the modes and I think the shotgun would be fine, make sense, and fit with the multirole theme NS2 seems to be going for with the Marines.
As it stands now, it's easier to simply shoot a few bullets with the AR at a Skulk and then bash it as it leaps at me, then it is to deal with the shotgun. The ability to bash for half a skulks health in general just obliterates any use the shotgun has for me -it's just too limited a weapons platform.
from reading this:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference</a>
my guess is it has with occlusion culling to do.
that it's an algorithm to keep occlusion queries down by not "asking" about polygons that are determined to "obviously be part of the next frame".
like looking straight at a crate in the middle of an empty room, and then player-view turns 5° - crate is obviously still gonna be there...
but could be something else, other ideas?
in any case, hope it brings fps improvements!