I haven't played enough of NS2 to know the strengths and weaknesses of the two sides, but for the sake of argument let's say the marines are good at bunkering down and fortifying positions and the aliens can make quick burst attacks.
Now say there's a map with a valuable choke point that, when held, gives a big advantage to one side (cargo bay on NS1's ns_tanith, for example).
<b>Now</b> say the marines start at cargo bay and the aliens at west access corridor.
It's an extreme example, but you get my point.
I think as long as the maps are asymmetrical then random starts will always be imbalanced!
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I don't think they are making random starts be mandatory. It will set up by the mapper, so if a map calls for random starts it will and if not it won't. This will add a nice spice to NS2 maps. Those designed for random starts will surely be more 'symmetrical' like a traditional rts map.
<!--quoteo(post=1885279:date=Nov 17 2011, 01:54 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 17 2011, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excellent to hear random hives will be in, it was one of the unique things I really enjoyed about NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah it did, it also made maps become ~3 times different because of the starting places. The marines would also have to explore the map as well and I found that fun as a marine, as soon as I saw a hostile I would bellow down the mic "Could be a hive here" :D
Good game NS1, it is all coming back to me now :)
Also, (This is for devs) you shouldn't make the alien commander a requirement for the alien team but give it more of an assisting factor. No one really stays in alien commander longer than ~10 minutes anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1885221:date=Nov 16 2011, 09:27 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa @ Nov 16 2011, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't played enough of NS2 to know the strengths and weaknesses of the two sides, but for the sake of argument let's say the marines are good at bunkering down and fortifying positions and the aliens can make quick burst attacks.
Now say there's a map with a valuable choke point that, when held, gives a big advantage to one side (cargo bay on NS1's ns_tanith, for example).
<b>Now</b> say the marines start at cargo bay and the aliens at west access corridor.
It's an extreme example, but you get my point.
I think as long as the maps are asymmetrical then random starts will always be imbalanced!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Random starts on tanith or summit would ofcourse be unbalanced simply becuse the maps were never designed with that in mind.
Also the maps don't even have to be balanced to the extent that everything is completly symmetrical, would defeat the point of having random spawns in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1885306:date=Nov 17 2011, 09:59 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Nov 17 2011, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah it did, it also made maps become ~3 times different because of the starting places. The marines would also have to explore the map as well and I found that fun as a marine, as soon as I saw a hostile I would bellow down the mic "Could be a hive here" :D
Good game NS1, it is all coming back to me now :)
Also, (This is for devs) you shouldn't make the alien commander a requirement for the alien team but give it more of an assisting factor. No one really stays in alien commander longer than ~10 minutes anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, I don't like commanding, but when I do, it's in alien, because for me it's easier, and there's almost always something to do. and I stay there usually almost the whole game. Now I think both teams needs some changes, but I couldn't tel what.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1885267:date=Nov 16 2011, 07:33 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Nov 16 2011, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think they are making random starts be mandatory. It will set up by the mapper, so if a map calls for random starts it will and if not it won't. This will add a nice spice to NS2 maps. Those designed for random starts will surely be more 'symmetrical' like a traditional rts map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it will be possible to mark a tech point for marine start only, alien start only or both allowed (im not sure if we are going to have "not allowed as start point", i will ask about that). Default is both allowed i assume, but the mappers will have full control about it.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1885324:date=Nov 17 2011, 02:01 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 17 2011, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it will be possible to mark a tech point for marine start only, alien start only or both allowed (im not sure if we are going to have "not allowed as start point", i will ask about that). Default is both allowed i assume, but the mappers will have full control about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course "not allowed" has to be an option! Otherwise you could only make maps with random start locations which also restricts the map design quite a lot. Fixes map locations have their limitations but allow you to go with more interesting asymmetrical map layouts. Please don't force random starting locations and let the mappers have the full control.
<!--quoteo(post=1885324:date=Nov 17 2011, 12:01 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 17 2011, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(im not sure if we are going to have "not allowed as start point", i will ask about that)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, mappers have the ability to flag a techpoint as not a valid spawn point. So, some maps can choose to not have any random starting, and in fact we are thinking of doing that for one of our internal maps.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1885357:date=Nov 17 2011, 01:37 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 17 2011, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, mappers have the ability to flag a techpoint as not a valid spawn point. So, some maps can choose to not have any random starting, and in fact we are thinking of doing that for one of our internal maps.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, i feel kinda ashamed know i didn't know that ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1885329:date=Nov 17 2011, 12:53 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Nov 17 2011, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course "not allowed" has to be an option! Otherwise you could only make maps with random start locations which also restricts the map design quite a lot. Fixes map locations have their limitations but allow you to go with more interesting asymmetrical map layouts. Please don't force random starting locations and let the mappers have the full control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. It's ridiuculously hard to build maps that are balanced to all spawn possibilities. In NS1 I don't think there was a single map that managed to create 3 completely balanced hives. In NS2 there might be numerous spawn location combinations to balance, which sounds like a huge mess.
Giving the mapper the ability to set up spawns as they want is awesome, but I don't think randomized spawns should necessarily be expected to any extend. NS2 can't afford to be balanced and adjusted for years like NS1 did.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 can't afford to be balanced and adjusted for years like NS1 did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1885361:date=Nov 17 2011, 06:50 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 17 2011, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 can't afford to be balanced and adjusted for years like NS1 did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1885368:date=Nov 17 2011, 02:52 PM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Nov 17 2011, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->random hive spawns in ns1 wtf when did that happen ive never seen that its always in the same location?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there were never random spawns in ns1. but it would have been funny (for public play at least)
<!--quoteo(post=1885366:date=Nov 17 2011, 07:25 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Nov 17 2011, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, why not huh!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As player pointed out, customers expect a complete game at 1.0. I don't mean that NS2 couldn't go ahead and develop for years in one way or the other, but 1.0 has to deliver a solid and balanced enough game that it convinces both the reviewers and new players. The rules are different for a 35$ game than they are for a free mod. NS1 nailed the balance properly probably somewhere around 2.0, if not even 3.0 versions, years after the initial release, that's not something a commercial game can do.
Also, I doubt there's any easy way to do huge transitions like NS1 did with 2.0 and 3.0.
<!--quoteo(post=1885368:date=Nov 17 2011, 08:52 PM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Nov 17 2011, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->random hive spawns in ns1 wtf when did that happen ive never seen that its always in the same location?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1885369:date=Nov 17 2011, 08:58 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 17 2011, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there were never random spawns in ns1. but it would have been funny (for public play at least)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Every classic map had 3 hive locations, aliens would randomly start in one of them. CO only had one location so naturally there was no randomness there.
I know we're already in the middle of changing the whole power node idea into power-sockets etc, but I just thought of a random idea to keep powernodes as they were and still address the 'skulk biting on nodes all day long' idea of gameplay.
1. Reduce health of powernode to X.... 10% of current hp?
2. When the power node goes down, the power drains by itself slowly. No need for the skulk to continue chomping on it for a whole minute
3. At 0 power, thats when the power runs out.... Things work as it is right now
4. Marine/Mac repair time is quicker (same scaling as above)
5. After Marine repairs the node, it will start to power up by itself slowly. Marine doesn't need to hold 'e' over the node for a while minute.
6. At 100 power, power is back on. Things work the same as now
With this, Mid/Late game gameplay may change slightly though.. Eg.. If marines are turtling a spot, you could take down the power node quickly (only 10% of the hp), then camp the node and stop marine from repairing it while the power drains out slowly
<!--quoteo(post=1885400:date=Nov 17 2011, 11:00 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Nov 17 2011, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haha, you lot just got outted as combat-players. Go hide in shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not necessarily, they might just have read random as truly random, rather than in a few preset spots. Slip of the brain, sort of thing.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i was talking about random spawns for both sides, not alien only. i played thousands of hours ns1 and i know that game still pretty good, i should have written "there were never random spawns for marines"
i usually played vanilla ns mode and never saw any random hive spawn out of all of the games i played. so again i ask when was that implemented or was it a mod? yes at the end i played a lot more co mode but still i ask. was it only on certain maps?
<!--quoteo(post=1885458:date=Nov 18 2011, 02:39 PM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Nov 18 2011, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i usually played vanilla ns mode and never saw any random hive spawn out of all of the games i played. so again i ask when was that implemented or was it a mod? yes at the end i played a lot more co mode but still i ask. was it only on certain maps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean for every map you always had the exact same alien-spawn? What spawn was that for say tanith? Fusion\Sat\Waste? I've never played on a server that had them fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=1885466:date=Nov 18 2011, 11:11 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 18 2011, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in vanilla ns1 aliens had 3 hive locations per map and one of those 3 was chosen randomly at round start<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love that there is debate over this topic. Hahah.
Comments
Now say there's a map with a valuable choke point that, when held, gives a big advantage to one side (cargo bay on NS1's ns_tanith, for example).
<b>Now</b> say the marines start at cargo bay and the aliens at west access corridor.
It's an extreme example, but you get my point.
I think as long as the maps are asymmetrical then random starts will always be imbalanced!
Yeah it did, it also made maps become ~3 times different because of the starting places. The marines would also have to explore the map as well and I found that fun as a marine, as soon as I saw a hostile I would bellow down the mic "Could be a hive here" :D
Good game NS1, it is all coming back to me now :)
Also, (This is for devs) you shouldn't make the alien commander a requirement for the alien team but give it more of an assisting factor. No one really stays in alien commander longer than ~10 minutes anyway.
Now say there's a map with a valuable choke point that, when held, gives a big advantage to one side (cargo bay on NS1's ns_tanith, for example).
<b>Now</b> say the marines start at cargo bay and the aliens at west access corridor.
It's an extreme example, but you get my point.
I think as long as the maps are asymmetrical then random starts will always be imbalanced!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Random starts on tanith or summit would ofcourse be unbalanced simply becuse the maps were never designed with that in mind.
Also the maps don't even have to be balanced to the extent that everything is completly symmetrical, would defeat the point of having random spawns in the first place.
Good game NS1, it is all coming back to me now :)
Also, (This is for devs) you shouldn't make the alien commander a requirement for the alien team but give it more of an assisting factor. No one really stays in alien commander longer than ~10 minutes anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, I don't like commanding, but when I do, it's in alien, because for me it's easier, and there's almost always something to do. and I stay there usually almost the whole game. Now I think both teams needs some changes, but I couldn't tel what.
it will be possible to mark a tech point for marine start only, alien start only or both allowed (im not sure if we are going to have "not allowed as start point", i will ask about that). Default is both allowed i assume, but the mappers will have full control about it.
Of course "not allowed" has to be an option! Otherwise you could only make maps with random start locations which also restricts the map design quite a lot. Fixes map locations have their limitations but allow you to go with more interesting asymmetrical map layouts. Please don't force random starting locations and let the mappers have the full control.
Yes, mappers have the ability to flag a techpoint as not a valid spawn point. So, some maps can choose to not have any random starting, and in fact we are thinking of doing that for one of our internal maps.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, i feel kinda ashamed know i didn't know that ^^
Yeah. It's ridiuculously hard to build maps that are balanced to all spawn possibilities. In NS1 I don't think there was a single map that managed to create 3 completely balanced hives. In NS2 there might be numerous spawn location combinations to balance, which sounds like a huge mess.
Giving the mapper the ability to set up spawns as they want is awesome, but I don't think randomized spawns should necessarily be expected to any extend. NS2 can't afford to be balanced and adjusted for years like NS1 did.
Why not?
Yeah, why not huh!?
there were never random spawns in ns1. but it would have been funny (for public play at least)
<!--quoteo(post=1885366:date=Nov 17 2011, 07:25 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Nov 17 2011, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, why not huh!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As player pointed out, customers expect a complete game at 1.0. I don't mean that NS2 couldn't go ahead and develop for years in one way or the other, but 1.0 has to deliver a solid and balanced enough game that it convinces both the reviewers and new players. The rules are different for a 35$ game than they are for a free mod. NS1 nailed the balance properly probably somewhere around 2.0, if not even 3.0 versions, years after the initial release, that's not something a commercial game can do.
Also, I doubt there's any easy way to do huge transitions like NS1 did with 2.0 and 3.0.
<!--quoteo(post=1885369:date=Nov 17 2011, 08:58 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 17 2011, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there were never random spawns in ns1. but it would have been funny (for public play at least)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every classic map had 3 hive locations, aliens would randomly start in one of them.
CO only had one location so naturally there was no randomness there.
Didn't play vanilla NS did you?
Schimmel.... Schimmel... You are an NS2 developer....
You MUST go and play some NS vanilla!
NAOW!
I know we're already in the middle of changing the whole power node idea into power-sockets etc, but I just thought of a random idea to keep powernodes as they were and still address the 'skulk biting on nodes all day long' idea of gameplay.
1. Reduce health of powernode to X.... 10% of current hp?
2. When the power node goes down, the power drains by itself slowly. No need for the skulk to continue chomping on it for a whole minute
3. At 0 power, thats when the power runs out.... Things work as it is right now
4. Marine/Mac repair time is quicker (same scaling as above)
5. After Marine repairs the node, it will start to power up by itself slowly. Marine doesn't need to hold 'e' over the node for a while minute.
6. At 100 power, power is back on. Things work the same as now
With this, Mid/Late game gameplay may change slightly though..
Eg.. If marines are turtling a spot, you could take down the power node quickly (only 10% of the hp), then camp the node and stop marine from repairing it while the power drains out slowly
Not necessarily, they might just have read random as truly random, rather than in a few preset spots. Slip of the brain, sort of thing.
yes at the end i played a lot more co mode but still i ask. was it only on certain maps?
yes at the end i played a lot more co mode but still i ask. was it only on certain maps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean for every map you always had the exact same alien-spawn? What spawn was that for say tanith? Fusion\Sat\Waste? I've never played on a server that had them fixed.
I love that there is debate over this topic. Hahah.