<!--quoteo(post=1799815:date=Sep 25 2010, 09:14 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 25 2010, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're wrong if you think i'm elitist. i've never played ns competitively. i'm just stating facts. you're the lynchpin of the marine team when you comm, and one of the worst experiences in NS is playing with an incompetent commander. I don't mind if you *dont know* what the hotkeys are. What I'm bothered by is the fact that you feel it necessary to take control of the marine team without putting in the minimal effort required to familiarize yourself with the role. It's fine to be new to commanding. It's not fine to be a noob to commanding and insist that everything is catered to you.
Put it this way. Everyone else on the team is trying to win with any skill and resource they have available (unless they're griefing). They're not sitting down with skulks and having afternoon tea-time. Why do you think you suddenly get to half-ass it once you take the comm chair? Honestly, it takes what, 10 seconds to mouse over each button and look at it, and think about the hotkeys? I mean even if you only memorize the hotkey for med packs, you're going to be much more effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you had read the previous posts you would understand that this is about new players, not people who know what is going on.
First let us assume to design for the extremes. Take two players who have both played fps before. They both have an understanding of WASD, and that E tends to be ‘use’. (Not always I know, but usually as standard setup especially HL games).
At one end of the spectrum, <b>PlayerOld</b>(such as some of the regulars on this forum). They know ‘everything’ about the game before they play. <b>Player Old</b> has played NS1, they have read everything about NS2 and they have read the manual and played the tutorials.
At the other end you have <b>PlayerNew</b>, someone who has seen the game in (for example) PCGamer, thought the pictures look cool and purchased the game.<b>PlayerNew</b> doesn’t read the manual, they don’t care about plot or strategy.. they just want to get into the game and play.
This is the extreme you should assume is out there, does happen, and will affect the game. The first thing they do is join the marine team and manage to jump in the chair before anyone else. Because why not, he is perfectly entitled to and does not know any better. How does he know that his actions in the early minutes of the game are going to cost it, alienate the team and get him banned.
This raises questions:
1. Should a new player be able to command straight away? 2. Should the player be able to enter the game without first ‘learning’ how to play as commander? 3. How do you ascertain that a player has learnt the commander role/ game? 4. How can you teach a player how to build on the fly? Is there a happy medium between annoying text tool tips (that you tend to instantly turn off) and useful suggestive animations and highlighting?
People will just jump into games, especially online. People are lazy, they want to understand by 'playing/doing' not 'training/reading/boring stuff.'
Going to post again soon with what I think could be done as a way of improving the gui.
First is to do with the period of time between login and the visual display of the top down view, as well as mid way into the game.
This can be a CVAR that is turned off in the options. Essentially it is about 'Active Suggestions' and 'Storytelling'. It is basic stuff, but vital to understanding the game in it's basics.
This is the assumption that any tutorials or help has been skipped. The login period would last around 20-40 seconds. This is just an example of how it could be, but is not accurate in terms of aesthetic or building names or whatever.
The screen loads, the welcome message (probably in some sexy female voice) lets the player know more information is coming so they don't miss it:
The command assistant loads. This is given some iconic icon or colour so that when the player sees this on screen in the future, he knows what it is.
The player is informed of resources, plasma and carbon. Resources you need to collect, so they understand they need to do that. These icons then drift to the top right, so that the player knows they are important and where to look to find them:
A menu of hierarchy appears. This lists the first buildings that are created, moving slowly through the early ones and then accelerating as it goes through the rest. To a point where you can't read it because it is too fast.
This allows the player to understand the first buildings to build, the importance of res towers and that they can build more as they up tech. This menu then drops into the bottom right as an icon and can be accessed at any time so the player knows WHAT HAS BEEN BUILT and what CAN BE BUILT by the commanding assistant.
This would be active through the game. So when you look at the hierarchy menu when players are screaming 'BUILD A ****** ARMOURY' you can see WHAT an armoury is (i know, obvious example) and WHY you should build it.
It helps to automate new players into doing the right thing whilst teaching them how to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1799823:date=Sep 26 2010, 12:15 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 26 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>PlayerOld</b>(such as some of the regulars on this forum). They know ‘everything’ about the game before they play. <b>Player Old</b> has played NS1, they have read everything about NS2 and they have read the manual and played the tutorials.
At the other end you have <b>PlayerNew</b>, someone who has seen the game in (for example) PCGamer, thought the pictures look cool and purchased the game.<b>PlayerNew</b> doesn’t read the manual, they don’t care about plot or strategy.. they just want to get into the game and play.
This is the extreme you should assume is out there, does happen, and will affect the game. The first thing they do is join the marine team and manage to jump in the chair before anyone else. Because why not, he is perfectly entitled to and does not know any better. How does he know that his actions in the early minutes of the game are going to cost it, alienate the team and get him banned.
This raises questions:
1. Should a new player be able to command straight away? 2. Should the player be able to enter the game without first ‘learning’ how to play as commander? 3. How do you ascertain that a player has learnt the commander role/ game? 4. How can you teach a player how to build on the fly? Is there a happy medium between annoying text tool tips (that you tend to instantly turn off) and useful suggestive animations and highlighting?
People will just jump into games, especially online. People are lazy, they want to understand by 'playing/doing' not 'training/reading/boring stuff.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> PlayerOld's "passion" and prepareness will show in his gameplay and will reward him simply by making it easier for him leaving room to grow of course.
PlayerNew's ignorance backfires by getting him out of the chair / server prematurely, should the comming (or other thing) made simple enough for first timer to "manage" it will leave no room to develop for others and ultimately becomes boring. Should the player make no attempt in finding out how to improve, he should stay underdog until he does.
1. Obviously not, point explained above 2. Whether there should be a tutorial or not I suppose? I dont think you need one if you have any experience in RTS and FPS but optional one is +++ 3. You dont have to as long as he is on the right track. 4. God knows, in the end its up to the person
You can improve both "casually" and "hardcore" or something in the middle but feigning ignorance is pathetic. Point being game should ENCOURAGE USING HOTKEYS instead of clicking with mouse.
There is nothing wrong with hot keys. I just explained that I did not use them in NS1 because I rarely commanded. When I had to it was a shambles because I didn't know what to build and when. There was nothing on the screen telling me how to build what I needed to build next. So I just slumped back into the FPS role and concerned myself with that. It is not that I did not want to command, I did. I just had no decent way of learning apart from reading a load of stuff I couldn't be bothered to read. As a player (me, not you or the next person, though they are just as important) I want to have fun.
Ok this is to do with communication and supplying players with health/ammo.
Communication in online games (especially this being a FPS/RTS) is awful. Yet it is the one thing that is driving the industry. First we had text, and now microphones. What has changed? (I do hope this has not been done in other games). What would be cool is some way of combining player location with player communication.
Example:
When commander starts the right hand side of the screen has 4 (or so) of the top players on the team. It displays health/ammo/location/player alias and icon.
This is something I would call a 'ping' bar. So when somebody communicates (text or mic) their alias pops to the top of list, indicating how they are communicating. New communications would stack underneath, and eventually push others off the top. This means that anyone you need to click on does not move just as you are about to click on them.
Clicking on the player opens up health/ammo options at bottom right. This allows you to heal/arm the player when in screen view.
I know this takes away the more 'active' involvement of dropping for players (if you do or not still?) but this allows the commander to concentrate on strategy. Such as when to supply in a battle, rather than trying to chase an active player around with the cursor and dropping behind them before they die.
Double clicking would take you to the players location, so in imminent death you can aid someone. That or the player in trouble can 'ping' (tap push to talk so it gives an audible 'pinging' down your speakers) so that they pop to the top of the list. This would inform the commander that there is danger in that area if they die before he can save them.
I'm really liking Runteh's thoughts on this. The quick intro is a great idea, especially since the animation to start up the command center is pretty long already. However, taking time like this especially at the beginning of the game when it's extra important to plant down new buildings, doesn't seem optimal to me. Even if the tutorial is only 20 seconds. Also, instead of a cvar, just make it run a set number of times, like L4D. Perhaps 2 at most.
One solution is to use the America's Army system where some stuff isn't unlocked until you do the tutorial. For AA, this includes even playing online. Perhaps you will have to go through a quick Comm tutorial before you're "certified" to command. Would be quick, but definitely prevents the problem of a first-time player totally ruining the round.
The other option is to add some pop-ups at the beginning of every round that give a set of hints, and one is to NOT be the commander if you're new. Something to be careful is that you don't put too many (people won't read it all) or too few (NeoTokyo only had 1 per round, so you learned new things for almost 10 rounds. That's a long time to become competent). Again, this pop-up would only happen a few times and then automatically turn off.
<!--quoteo(post=1799824:date=Sep 25 2010, 05:53 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 25 2010, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, here are two areas I think could be improved.
First is to do with the period of time between login and the visual display of the top down view, as well as mid way into the game.
This can be a CVAR that is turned off in the options. Essentially it is about 'Active Suggestions' and 'Storytelling'. It is basic stuff, but vital to understanding the game in it's basics.
This is the assumption that any tutorials or help has been skipped. The login period would last around 20-40 seconds. This is just an example of how it could be, but is not accurate in terms of aesthetic or building names or whatever.
The screen loads, the welcome message (probably in some sexy female voice) lets the player know more information is coming so they don't miss it:
The command assistant loads. This is given some iconic icon or colour so that when the player sees this on screen in the future, he knows what it is.
The player is informed of resources, plasma and carbon. Resources you need to collect, so they understand they need to do that. These icons then drift to the top right, so that the player knows they are important and where to look to find them:
A menu of hierarchy appears. This lists the first buildings that are created, moving slowly through the early ones and then accelerating as it goes through the rest. To a point where you can't read it because it is too fast.
This allows the player to understand the first buildings to build, the importance of res towers and that they can build more as they up tech. This menu then drops into the bottom right as an icon and can be accessed at any time so the player knows WHAT HAS BEEN BUILT and what CAN BE BUILT by the commanding assistant.
This would be active through the game. So when you look at the hierarchy menu when players are screaming 'BUILD A ****** ARMOURY' you can see WHAT an armoury is (i know, obvious example) and WHY you should build it.
It helps to automate new players into doing the right thing whilst teaching them how to play.
tl:dr, another one coming soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is a great response and set of ideas. one of the great things about NS was that, partly because of the steep learning curve, the community was very tolerant of new players when it first came out. I became a decent comm and that could not have happened if the players had voted me out before I got familiar with what I was doing. That is not my issue. New players are great and necessary; I think NS was blessed with a fairly mature community.
Now, about not knowing what to build - that can only come with experience. Suggestions/intro "build paths" are alright if they're very basic, but honestly I would prefer the comm to be interacting with his team to find out how to play. Keep in mind that as strategies evolve, there is no way that a preset build order will be able to adapt.
I would like a menu that gives me a list of players. I can select the player or jump to his/her location.
This would include MACs, Drifters and any other NPC items
What are they targeting this game for 8 on 8?
A list of 10+ shouldn't be hard to kick out from a button press.
I picture it as a slide out from the right or the left.
Such a mechanism would help pub commanders get familiarized with the handles of their crew and what they are good at. and should be well liked by the clan crowd.
I think the 20/30 seconds is a long time in terms of 'game time' but for a new player commanding it would hopefully improve the next 20minutes of the game, if they are not booted. Also, it is not effecting the rest of the team so when you finally pop into the visual top down display, players will be waiting at res nodes for you to build. It could work out nicely.
As for tutorials you have to assume (as per what I did in AA, I don't know about anyone else) that some people do not bother with them, and if they are forced to, rush them asap so they can get into the fight.
@wheee
The paths are meant to be 'what can be built next, and what - sort of - 'should be'. So even if you have a shocking commander, at least they are not spending vital seconds looking at the structure list and thinking 'what to do now?'. Players can still help by communicating with him.
@kingmob
I think the communication idea is my favourite of the 2/3. Because I don't think there is any game that really emphasises team communication beyond standard 'text' and 'push to talk'. It would really create a relationship between the commander and players, because those communicating position would benefit, those communicating health and ammo status would benefit. You would get to know players more and care about them.
<!--quoteo(post=1799825:date=Sep 26 2010, 06:11 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 26 2010, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PlayerNew's ignorance backfires by getting him out of the chair / server prematurely, should the comming (or other thing) made simple enough for first timer to "manage" it will leave no room to develop for others and ultimately becomes boring. Should the player make no attempt in finding out how to improve, he should stay underdog until he does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is it that <b>designing the GUI</b> to be simpler to understand and use and more "intuitive" (God I hate using that word on this forum, it sounds so cheap even though I never use it cheaply) would "dumb the game down" (which appears to be the point you're trying to make)? How would a better, cleaner, less cluttered interface with more visual contrast and easier to understand and distinguish icons, make it so that PlayerOld (or any player) has less room to improve?
Someone argued against this idea: That when someone looks at something, they should understand (intuitively) what it does, before they even need to hover over with the mouse to check the tooltip. That the tooltip should serve as detail and confirmation, rather than the first stage of understanding. I think this should be the basis for the design of the icons and the GUI interface as a whole, and I can't see why anyone would favour the opposite.
I think many people may have gone off on a different tangent to the original aim of the thread and are instead populating it with their own ideas as to how the commander experience (beyond the GUI) should be...
However, Runteh: Great idea. But I hope there's a "skip" button. Maybe unskippable the first two (or so) times, though.
I'll leave you with this: People love to learn, but they hate to be taught.
<!--quoteo(post=1799866:date=Sep 26 2010, 04:03 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Sep 26 2010, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since you cut out the phrases you only wanted I'll give it to you once more.
"Point being game should ENCOURAGE USING HOTKEYS instead of clicking with mouse."
“Simplicity is in the mind. We need complexity, but accompanied by understanding. Simplicity is in the mind: When we understand something, it is simple. When we don't, it is complicated.â€
<!--quoteo(post=1799929:date=Sep 26 2010, 09:54 PM:name=jkreef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkreef @ Sep 26 2010, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if they made Runteh's idea the loading screen? Or one of several?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a bad idea. Bad company 1, for PS3, featured instructions at the loading screens to inform you of the rules for whatever sort of game-mode was loading. It may turn into a valuable feature if people start making crazy mini-mods with complex gameplay, which will allow new players to the server to have a rough idea of what to expect.
It also allows for more interesting stuff to be viewed instead of a black screen with the words "Loading..." in the top left.
<!--quoteo(post=1799932:date=Sep 26 2010, 07:53 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Sep 26 2010, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a bad idea. Bad company 1, for PS3, featured instructions at the loading screens to inform you of the rules for whatever sort of game-mode was loading. It may turn into a valuable feature if people start making crazy mini-mods with complex gameplay, which will allow new players to the server to have a rough idea of what to expect.
It also allows for more interesting stuff to be viewed instead of a black screen with the words "Loading..." in the top left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While true, and I fully support this idea, as I mentioned before there is actually a way to do this WRONG.
See, again, NeoTokyo and its inability to convey enough interesting information to make you competent until your 10th game. Most people don't survive past their 3rd, and that's in a very rapid round game.
The alternative is to have a series of pages you have to thumb through once you join a game before you can start. i.e. TF2 movies. Sure you can skip them if you're pro, but new players it just might give enough info so they don't stumble around and then rage quit. Eternal Silence played around with this idea, but overall it fell flat.
Now, excuse me. I might have to kill myself for quoting FocusedWolf in agreement.
<!--quoteo(post=1799881:date=Sep 27 2010, 12:34 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 27 2010, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->“Simplicity is in the mind. We need complexity, but accompanied by understanding. Simplicity is in the mind: When we understand something, it is simple. When we don't, it is complicated.â€<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this. To comment on this, that which is "intuitive" is that which is 'natural' - what is easily understood without explanation. It can be as complex as necessary, but it will appear 'simple' to the mind and appear simple to the user.
<!--quoteo(post=1799876:date=Sep 26 2010, 11:10 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 26 2010, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you cut out the phrases you only wanted I'll give it to you once more.
"Point being game should ENCOURAGE USING HOTKEYS instead of clicking with mouse."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So negative encouragement is a good thing, then? Making it hard for them to use the GUI, so that they are <b>forced</b> to learn and use the hotkeys... is what you appear to be supporting.
<!--quoteo(post=1799944:date=Sep 27 2010, 02:13 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Sep 27 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, excuse me. I might have to kill myself for quoting FocusedWolf in agreement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1799214:date=Sep 20 2010, 03:57 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Sep 20 2010, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no idea what any of those buttons mean, except maybe the Build Icon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was reading a book on user-interface design today, and saw a chapter that discussed icons. The point the book was making is that icons which are too abstract leave far to much room for interpretation. The AIGA icons <a href="http://www.arrowsandicons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/symbol-signs-collection.gif" target="_blank">http://www.arrowsandicons.com/wp-content/u...-collection.gif</a> were used as an example of this, where some icons are clear but others are very hard to understand. The other end of the spectrum was icons which contain highly detailed miniaturized images which take longer to mentally decipher.
The best icon, according to the book, was something between the two extremes.... i.e. 50% abstract + 50% image, with text underneath.
Also i think something can be said about the use of bright blue in a lot of areas of NS2. At least they didn't use blue as a foreground font because that was a definite no-no according to the book, and especially so for smaller fonts. Blue as a background was considered good however, which the devs seemed to follow, but thin blue lines were considered bad.
Green would probably have been easier on the eyes... like the original design <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/NS2_commander_mockup.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/N...der_mockup.jpg</a> but i can only imagine some sort of water cooler discussion about deviating too far from NS1 led to the switch to blue colors like the original... <a href="http://www.lerk.de/bilder/commander-classic.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.lerk.de/bilder/commander-classic.jpg</a>.
Opinion time. Something about the way the "white" area of the abstract icons being represented as a gradient from white-to-blue seems a bit wrong to me, and maybe it would be better if the icons didn't blend so well with the background, with only the annoying bright blue corners to differentiate one button from another?
Good news is that we could pretty much expect people will be making modified commander interfaces to replace the default. I mean it's just a swf file. (smooth sailing as long as some "vanilla" server doesn't label such modifications to the interface as hacks)
As far as I remember from design classes, blue/yellow on black is the easiest to distinguish based on the widest range of users. From those of us who have perfect vision, to those who have visual impairment.
When you start mixing reds/greens those who are colour blind start to have issues, etc.
Those icons are a great example of what is being talked about though. Some you instantly know what is going on, the dollar sign/ first aid and trash disposal.
Obviously there are no universal signs for 'stop unit' or 'plasma/carbon' resource. But they need to be iconic enough so that they are instantly recognisable.
There is also a view ration of 200:1 for fonts, so if something is 1cm in height the farthest distance that it can really be perceived from is 200cm away before it becomes uncomfortable.
<!--quoteo(post=1800685:date=Oct 3 2010, 05:17 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 3 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously there are no universal signs for 'stop unit' or 'plasma/carbon' resource. But they need to be iconic enough so that they are instantly recognisable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not going to argue that the icons shouldn't be as simple and iconic as possible. However, having all the icons be instantly recognizable, especially considering, as you pointed out, there are no universal signs for many of the items and features in NS2 that require UI symbols, is a pretty tall order.
Take these symbols, for example. [attachment=35956:symbols.jpg]
Did you just always know that a giant P on a sign stands for Parking? Of course having lived our lives being exposed to these symbols we can instantly recognize them now, but many of these had to be learned at some point.
As with any new game there is a learning curve, and, while we can do our best to minimize the learning curve, its still going to be kind of overwhelming jumping into commander mode for the first time, and the facts are just that there are going to be a lot of icons and buttons that will need to be learned though either clicking on them to see what they do, or relying on tool tips. Its easy enough to say that an icon should be iconic and instantly recognizable, but much harder when you have to sit down and actually create them.
<!--quoteo(post=1800691:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:40 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Oct 3 2010, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not going to argue that the icons shouldn't be as simple and iconic as possible. However, having all the icons be instantly recognizable, especially considering, as you pointed out, there are no universal signs for many of the items and features in NS2 that require UI symbols, is a pretty tall order.
Take these symbols, for example. [attachment=35956:symbols.jpg]
Did you just always know that a giant P on a sign stands for Parking? Of course having lived our lives being exposed to these symbols we can instantly recognize them now, but many of these had to be learned at some point.
As with any new game there is a learning curve, and, while we can do our best to minimize the learning curve, its still going to be kind of overwhelming jumping into commander mode for the first time, and the facts are just that there are going to be a lot of icons and buttons that will need to be learned though either clicking on them to see what they do, or relying on tool tips. Its easy enough to say that an icon should be iconic and instantly recognizable, but much harder when you have to sit down and actually create them.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally, and I understand that completely. Branding/iconism is in - some - large part to do with consistency as well as recognition of something that is visually embedded into our minds.
For e.g
How you have made the 'back' through the menus the '<<' button consistent throughout, for both aliens and marines. Before - I think I am right in saying - there was an 'on/off' button as well.
If you look back through this post I have posted ideas in reference to learning curve as possible answers to this, as well as questions that are raised by a steep learning curve in a 'jump in' on-line environment.
You have clearly updated the GUI greatly and it is a lot more considered. There is an obvious trade off between aesthetic and functionality, and this is a game not a hospital ward. So pressing the wrong thing isn't going to kill anyone (for real). ;)
My issue is not all with the visuals of the GUI, or a direct criticism of the buttons you currently have in place. It is more concerns of a combination of scenarios of the GUI or GUI design in general.
My original post was addressing (mainly) a regards to the relationship between the commander and interface: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799824" target="_blank">Learning Curve</a>
As well as communication (location/stats/supply/etc) between commander and players: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799828" target="_blank">Communication</a>
My main reasons for posting this was partly to do with awareness, but mostly to do with the fact that design is something I am interested in (gaming/otherwise) and I don't currently have a job in (still searching after obtaining a degree in ID). Just thought it would be something to talk about whilst waiting for the next release.
Anyway, I hope you guys are enjoying the development. Looking forward to the next build.
P.s If I did have any 'very harsh' criticism of the resource set, it is perhaps that they both look very similar. Colour does not always cut the mustard, because the first things our brains recognise visually is silhouette and - I think I am right in saying - our strongest method of identification.
I suppose there is a possibility of getting them mixed up in stressful game situations (i.e. saving for stuff whilst doing lots of other stuff at the same time) Perhaps if the carbon was a green 'carbon rock' shape that was not encased in a circle it would go towards distinguishing the two.
Any commander worth their salt will be using hotkeys, so only for the first game or two is the "look" of the icon even that important.
Although, that doesn't mean icons shouldn't be intuitive in the first place given not every commander is going to be a pro. That being said, imo, the icons are plenty intuitive as is. I would guess "log out", "build", "stop" and "target/attack". Simple.
I don't understand what this fuss is about. When you fired up Starcraft 2 and clicked on a Nexus, did you recognise the chronoboost symbol? No, you hovered the tooltip once, used it, and knew what it did for ever after. Later, you built the confidence to use to hotkey. Just like every other ability of every unit and building. It's the same with NS2. I didn't know what any of it did at first. So I learnt it. It's not hard. There are levels of accessibility that a game can aim for, but at some point a developer has to draw a line in the sand.
Next someone will be complaining that new players won't instantly recognise that the armory is a place where you get ammunition, instead of being an extending wardrobe with flashy lights.
This thread appears to be arguing for the sake of arguing. It's like political correctness gone mad.
There is more to this then recognising what a symbol means, people write 500+ page books just on GUI design. Somehow I don't think you just summed it up in one post to kill a perfectly reasonable and well debated thread.
If people actually read this from the beginning (tl;dr) then they would understand what I am trying to get at.
<!--quoteo(post=1800730:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:54 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 4 2010, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is more to this then recognising what a symbol means, people write 500+ page books just on GUI design. Somehow I don't think you just summed it up in one post to kill a perfectly reasonable and well debated thread.
If people actually read this from the beginning (tl;dr) then they would understand what I am trying to get at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd never presume my arguments could kill a thread, nor would I want them to. But thankyou for your particular attention Runteh.
Well there is one thing people being opinionated. There is another when there is someone who is opinionated and hold a certain status in the community. You for one, higher than most.
I have been enjoying your NS2HD vids btw. Fills a gap!
<!--quoteo(post=1800691:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:40 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Oct 3 2010, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not going to argue that the icons shouldn't be as simple and iconic as possible. However, having all the icons be instantly recognizable, especially considering, as you pointed out, there are no universal signs for many of the items and features in NS2 that require UI symbols, is a pretty tall order.
Take these symbols, for example. [attachment=35956:symbols.jpg]
Did you just always know that a giant P on a sign stands for Parking? Of course having lived our lives being exposed to these symbols we can instantly recognize them now, but <b>many of these</b> had to be learned at some point.
As with any new game there is a learning curve, and, while we can do our best to minimize the learning curve, its still going to be kind of overwhelming jumping into commander mode for the first time, and the facts are just that there are going to be a lot of icons and buttons that will need to be learned though either clicking on them to see what they do, or relying on tool tips. Its easy enough to say that an icon should be iconic and instantly recognizable, but much harder when you have to sit down and actually create them.
<!--quoteo(post=1800728:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:46 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Oct 4 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I don't understand what this fuss is about.</b> When you fired up Starcraft 2 and clicked on a Nexus, did you recognise the chronoboost symbol? No, you hovered the tooltip once, used it, and knew what it did for ever after. Later, you built the confidence to use to hotkey. Just like every other ability of every unit and building. It's the same with NS2. I didn't know what any of it did at first. So I learnt it. It's not hard. <b>There are levels of accessibility that a game can aim for, but at some point a developer has to draw a line in the sand.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the point of this thread is to bring to light that the commander UI could use a little tweaking, which will result in improving the commander experience.
We cannot expect all (casual, i.e. non-clan) commanders are willing to learn the hotkeys for every function day-1, but a (slightly) improved/tweaked UI will lessen the learning curve which will bring them down that path.
Also i'm not sure how dissimilar the alien commander UI is, but considering how multiple marine commanders will be supported + one (or more?) alien commanders in the same game, the end result is a lot more people will be at the commanders helm then in NS1. Therefore the interface needs to be solid as much as possible, and tweaked based on community response.
<!--quoteo(post=1800728:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:46 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Oct 4 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next someone will be complaining that new players won't instantly recognise that the armory is a place where you get ammunition, instead of being an extending wardrobe with flashy lights.
This thread appears to be arguing for the sake of arguing. It's like political correctness gone mad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a good theme for another <strike>anti-</strike>community video. :P
Comments
Put it this way. Everyone else on the team is trying to win with any skill and resource they have available (unless they're griefing). They're not sitting down with skulks and having afternoon tea-time. Why do you think you suddenly get to half-ass it once you take the comm chair? Honestly, it takes what, 10 seconds to mouse over each button and look at it, and think about the hotkeys? I mean even if you only memorize the hotkey for med packs, you're going to be much more effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you had read the previous posts you would understand that this is about new players, not people who know what is going on.
First let us assume to design for the extremes. Take two players who have both played fps before. They both have an understanding of WASD, and that E tends to be ‘use’. (Not always I know, but usually as standard setup especially HL games).
At one end of the spectrum, <b>PlayerOld</b>(such as some of the regulars on this forum). They know ‘everything’ about the game before they play. <b>Player Old</b> has played NS1, they have read everything about NS2 and they have read the manual and played the tutorials.
At the other end you have <b>PlayerNew</b>, someone who has seen the game in (for example) PCGamer, thought the pictures look cool and purchased the game.<b>PlayerNew</b> doesn’t read the manual, they don’t care about plot or strategy.. they just want to get into the game and play.
This is the extreme you should assume is out there, does happen, and will affect the game. The first thing they do is join the marine team and manage to jump in the chair before anyone else. Because why not, he is perfectly entitled to and does not know any better. How does he know that his actions in the early minutes of the game are going to cost it, alienate the team and get him banned.
This raises questions:
1. Should a new player be able to command straight away?
2. Should the player be able to enter the game without first ‘learning’ how to play as commander?
3. How do you ascertain that a player has learnt the commander role/ game?
4. How can you teach a player how to build on the fly? Is there a happy medium between annoying text tool tips (that you tend to
instantly turn off) and useful suggestive animations and highlighting?
People will just jump into games, especially online. People are lazy, they want to understand by 'playing/doing' not 'training/reading/boring stuff.'
Going to post again soon with what I think could be done as a way of improving the gui.
First is to do with the period of time between login and the visual display of the top down view, as well as mid way into the game.
This can be a CVAR that is turned off in the options. Essentially it is about 'Active Suggestions' and 'Storytelling'. It is basic stuff, but vital to understanding the game in it's basics.
This is the assumption that any tutorials or help has been skipped. The login period would last around 20-40 seconds. This is just an example of how it could be, but is not accurate in terms of aesthetic or building names or whatever.
The screen loads, the welcome message (probably in some sexy female voice) lets the player know more information is coming so they don't miss it:
<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OuhZ2aEI/AAAAAAAAAF8/12in_Bkd5gs/s912/2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The command assistant loads. This is given some iconic icon or colour so that when the player sees this on screen in the future, he knows what it is.
The player is informed of resources, plasma and carbon. Resources you need to collect, so they understand they need to do that. These icons then drift to the top right, so that the player knows they are important and where to look to find them:
<img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5Ou0VI_-I/AAAAAAAAAGA/M6XAs7VUsUQ/s912/3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The player understands that there is building involved:
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5Ou6Wb7NI/AAAAAAAAAGE/dMbAAgMAHck/s912/4.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
A menu of hierarchy appears. This lists the first buildings that are created, moving slowly through the early ones and then accelerating as it goes through the rest. To a point where you can't read it because it is too fast.
This allows the player to understand the first buildings to build, the importance of res towers and that they can build more as they up tech. This menu then drops into the bottom right as an icon and can be accessed at any time so the player knows WHAT HAS BEEN BUILT and what CAN BE BUILT by the commanding assistant.
<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OvNUhfEI/AAAAAAAAAGI/jvx6e1c57K4/s912/5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here the commander is informed of his roles, and what he should be doing (in basic). Simple stuff, but you don't know it until told:
<img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OvLZ_BeI/AAAAAAAAAGM/x7g5WbrPjDg/s912/6.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Now you get the top down view, and the CA (command assistant) is displaying what button to hit.
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PP4Z_43I/AAAAAAAAAGQ/HjE1NwoCDG0/s912/7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Now you have to build an MAC:
<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQDZIxAI/AAAAAAAAAGU/M-Z5IGvIg64/s912/8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The MAC spawns and a green glow indicates you have to move it to the building to make it build.
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQJsOcRI/AAAAAAAAAGY/pV9NHN1FZI4/s912/9.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This would be active through the game. So when you look at the hierarchy menu when players are screaming 'BUILD A ****** ARMOURY' you can see WHAT an armoury is (i know, obvious example) and WHY you should build it.
It helps to automate new players into doing the right thing whilst teaching them how to play.
tl:dr, another one coming soon.
At the other end you have <b>PlayerNew</b>, someone who has seen the game in (for example) PCGamer, thought the pictures look cool and purchased the game.<b>PlayerNew</b> doesn’t read the manual, they don’t care about plot or strategy.. they just want to get into the game and play.
This is the extreme you should assume is out there, does happen, and will affect the game. The first thing they do is join the marine team and manage to jump in the chair before anyone else. Because why not, he is perfectly entitled to and does not know any better. How does he know that his actions in the early minutes of the game are going to cost it, alienate the team and get him banned.
This raises questions:
1. Should a new player be able to command straight away?
2. Should the player be able to enter the game without first ‘learning’ how to play as commander?
3. How do you ascertain that a player has learnt the commander role/ game?
4. How can you teach a player how to build on the fly? Is there a happy medium between annoying text tool tips (that you tend to
instantly turn off) and useful suggestive animations and highlighting?
People will just jump into games, especially online. People are lazy, they want to understand by 'playing/doing' not 'training/reading/boring stuff.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PlayerOld's "passion" and prepareness will show in his gameplay and will reward him simply by making it easier for him leaving room to grow of course.
PlayerNew's ignorance backfires by getting him out of the chair / server prematurely, should the comming (or other thing) made simple enough for first timer to "manage" it will leave no room to develop for others and ultimately becomes boring. Should the player make no attempt in finding out how to improve, he should stay underdog until he does.
1. Obviously not, point explained above
2. Whether there should be a tutorial or not I suppose? I dont think you need one if you have any experience in RTS and FPS but optional one is +++
3. You dont have to as long as he is on the right track.
4. God knows, in the end its up to the person
You can improve both "casually" and "hardcore" or something in the middle but feigning ignorance is pathetic. Point being game should ENCOURAGE USING HOTKEYS instead of clicking with mouse.
Ok this is to do with communication and supplying players with health/ammo.
Communication in online games (especially this being a FPS/RTS) is awful. Yet it is the one thing that is driving the industry. First we had text, and now microphones. What has changed? (I do hope this has not been done in other games). What would be cool is some way of combining player location with player communication.
Example:
When commander starts the right hand side of the screen has 4 (or so) of the top players on the team. It displays health/ammo/location/player alias and icon.
<img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQcVFu2I/AAAAAAAAAGc/vLx8jhhkis0/s912/10.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This is something I would call a 'ping' bar. So when somebody communicates (text or mic) their alias pops to the top of list, indicating how they are communicating. New communications would stack underneath, and eventually push others off the top. This means that anyone you need to click on does not move just as you are about to click on them.
<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQexzBhI/AAAAAAAAAGg/WQdaitjNZq4/s912/11.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Clicking on the player opens up health/ammo options at bottom right. This allows you to heal/arm the player when in screen view.
I know this takes away the more 'active' involvement of dropping for players (if you do or not still?) but this allows the commander to concentrate on strategy. Such as when to supply in a battle, rather than trying to chase an active player around with the cursor and dropping behind them before they die.
Double clicking would take you to the players location, so in imminent death you can aid someone. That or the player in trouble can 'ping' (tap push to talk so it gives an audible 'pinging' down your speakers) so that they pop to the top of the list. This would inform the commander that there is danger in that area if they die before he can save them.
<img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5YfPaT7cI/AAAAAAAAAGw/DMpeKwvt3BU/s912/12.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Griefing could be solved by the use of mute.
One solution is to use the America's Army system where some stuff isn't unlocked until you do the tutorial. For AA, this includes even playing online. Perhaps you will have to go through a quick Comm tutorial before you're "certified" to command. Would be quick, but definitely prevents the problem of a first-time player totally ruining the round.
The other option is to add some pop-ups at the beginning of every round that give a set of hints, and one is to NOT be the commander if you're new. Something to be careful is that you don't put too many (people won't read it all) or too few (NeoTokyo only had 1 per round, so you learned new things for almost 10 rounds. That's a long time to become competent). Again, this pop-up would only happen a few times and then automatically turn off.
First is to do with the period of time between login and the visual display of the top down view, as well as mid way into the game.
This can be a CVAR that is turned off in the options. Essentially it is about 'Active Suggestions' and 'Storytelling'. It is basic stuff, but vital to understanding the game in it's basics.
This is the assumption that any tutorials or help has been skipped. The login period would last around 20-40 seconds. This is just an example of how it could be, but is not accurate in terms of aesthetic or building names or whatever.
The screen loads, the welcome message (probably in some sexy female voice) lets the player know more information is coming so they don't miss it:
<a href="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OuhZ2aEI/AAAAAAAAAF8/12in_Bkd5gs/s912/2.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OuhZ2...d5gs/s912/2.jpg</a>
The command assistant loads. This is given some iconic icon or colour so that when the player sees this on screen in the future, he knows what it is.
The player is informed of resources, plasma and carbon. Resources you need to collect, so they understand they need to do that. These icons then drift to the top right, so that the player knows they are important and where to look to find them:
<a href="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5Ou0VI_-I/AAAAAAAAAGA/M6XAs7VUsUQ/s912/3.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5Ou0VI...UsUQ/s912/3.jpg</a>
The player understands that there is building involved:
<a href="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5Ou6Wb7NI/AAAAAAAAAGE/dMbAAgMAHck/s912/4.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5Ou6Wb...AHck/s912/4.jpg</a>
A menu of hierarchy appears. This lists the first buildings that are created, moving slowly through the early ones and then accelerating as it goes through the rest. To a point where you can't read it because it is too fast.
This allows the player to understand the first buildings to build, the importance of res towers and that they can build more as they up tech. This menu then drops into the bottom right as an icon and can be accessed at any time so the player knows WHAT HAS BEEN BUILT and what CAN BE BUILT by the commanding assistant.
<a href="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OvNUhfEI/AAAAAAAAAGI/jvx6e1c57K4/s912/5.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OvNUh...57K4/s912/5.jpg</a>
Here the commander is informed of his roles, and what he should be doing (in basic). Simple stuff, but you don't know it until told:
<a href="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OvLZ_BeI/AAAAAAAAAGM/x7g5WbrPjDg/s912/6.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5OvLZ_...PjDg/s912/6.jpg</a>
Now you get the top down view, and the CA (command assistant) is displaying what button to hit.
<a href="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PP4Z_43I/AAAAAAAAAGQ/HjE1NwoCDG0/s912/7.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PP4Z_...CDG0/s912/7.jpg</a>
Now you have to build an MAC:
<a href="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQDZIxAI/AAAAAAAAAGU/M-Z5IGvIg64/s912/8.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh3.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQDZI...Ig64/s912/8.jpg</a>
The MAC spawns and a green glow indicates you have to move it to the building to make it build.
<a href="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQJsOcRI/AAAAAAAAAGY/pV9NHN1FZI4/s912/9.jpg" target="_blank">http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O5wLta7OteY/TJ5PQJsO...FZI4/s912/9.jpg</a>
This would be active through the game. So when you look at the hierarchy menu when players are screaming 'BUILD A ****** ARMOURY' you can see WHAT an armoury is (i know, obvious example) and WHY you should build it.
It helps to automate new players into doing the right thing whilst teaching them how to play.
tl:dr, another one coming soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is a great response and set of ideas. one of the great things about NS was that, partly because of the steep learning curve, the community was very tolerant of new players when it first came out. I became a decent comm and that could not have happened if the players had voted me out before I got familiar with what I was doing. That is not my issue. New players are great and necessary; I think NS was blessed with a fairly mature community.
Now, about not knowing what to build - that can only come with experience. Suggestions/intro "build paths" are alright if they're very basic, but honestly I would prefer the comm to be interacting with his team to find out how to play. Keep in mind that as strategies evolve, there is no way that a preset build order will be able to adapt.
I can select the player or jump to his/her location.
This would include MACs, Drifters and any other NPC items
What are they targeting this game for 8 on 8?
A list of 10+ shouldn't be hard to kick out from a button press.
I picture it as a slide out from the right or the left.
Such a mechanism would help pub commanders get familiarized with the handles of their crew and what they are good at.
and should be well liked by the clan crowd.
@spellman32
I think the 20/30 seconds is a long time in terms of 'game time' but for a new player commanding it would hopefully improve the next 20minutes of the game, if they are not booted. Also, it is not effecting the rest of the team so when you finally pop into the visual top down display, players will be waiting at res nodes for you to build. It could work out nicely.
As for tutorials you have to assume (as per what I did in AA, I don't know about anyone else) that some people do not bother with them, and if they are forced to, rush them asap so they can get into the fight.
@wheee
The paths are meant to be 'what can be built next, and what - sort of - 'should be'. So even if you have a shocking commander, at least they are not spending vital seconds looking at the structure list and thinking 'what to do now?'. Players can still help by communicating with him.
@kingmob
I think the communication idea is my favourite of the 2/3. Because I don't think there is any game that really emphasises team communication beyond standard 'text' and 'push to talk'. It would really create a relationship between the commander and players, because those communicating position would benefit, those communicating health and ammo status would benefit. You would get to know players more and care about them.
How is it that <b>designing the GUI</b> to be simpler to understand and use and more "intuitive" (God I hate using that word on this forum, it sounds so cheap even though I never use it cheaply) would "dumb the game down" (which appears to be the point you're trying to make)? How would a better, cleaner, less cluttered interface with more visual contrast and easier to understand and distinguish icons, make it so that PlayerOld (or any player) has less room to improve?
Someone argued against this idea:
That when someone looks at something, they should understand (intuitively) what it does, before they even need to hover over with the mouse to check the tooltip. That the tooltip should serve as detail and confirmation, rather than the first stage of understanding.
I think this should be the basis for the design of the icons and the GUI interface as a whole, and I can't see why anyone would favour the opposite.
I think many people may have gone off on a different tangent to the original aim of the thread and are instead populating it with their own ideas as to how the commander experience (beyond the GUI) should be...
However, Runteh: Great idea. But I hope there's a "skip" button. Maybe unskippable the first two (or so) times, though.
I'll leave you with this:
People love to learn, but they hate to be taught.
Since you cut out the phrases you only wanted I'll give it to you once more.
"Point being game should ENCOURAGE USING HOTKEYS instead of clicking with mouse."
It's not a bad idea. Bad company 1, for PS3, featured instructions at the loading screens to inform you of the rules for whatever sort of game-mode was loading. It may turn into a valuable feature if people start making crazy mini-mods with complex gameplay, which will allow new players to the server to have a rough idea of what to expect.
It also allows for more interesting stuff to be viewed instead of a black screen with the words "Loading..." in the top left.
It also allows for more interesting stuff to be viewed instead of a black screen with the words "Loading..." in the top left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While true, and I fully support this idea, as I mentioned before there is actually a way to do this WRONG.
See, again, NeoTokyo and its inability to convey enough interesting information to make you competent until your 10th game. Most people don't survive past their 3rd, and that's in a very rapid round game.
The alternative is to have a series of pages you have to thumb through once you join a game before you can start. i.e. TF2 movies. Sure you can skip them if you're pro, but new players it just might give enough info so they don't stumble around and then rage quit. Eternal Silence played around with this idea, but overall it fell flat.
Now, excuse me. I might have to kill myself for quoting FocusedWolf in agreement.
I like this. To comment on this, that which is "intuitive" is that which is 'natural' - what is easily understood without explanation. It can be as complex as necessary, but it will appear 'simple' to the mind and appear simple to the user.
<!--quoteo(post=1799876:date=Sep 26 2010, 11:10 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 26 2010, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you cut out the phrases you only wanted I'll give it to you once more.
"Point being game should ENCOURAGE USING HOTKEYS instead of clicking with mouse."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So negative encouragement is a good thing, then? Making it hard for them to use the GUI, so that they are <b>forced</b> to learn and use the hotkeys... is what you appear to be supporting.
<!--quoteo(post=1799944:date=Sep 27 2010, 02:13 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Sep 27 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, excuse me. I might have to kill myself for quoting FocusedWolf in agreement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
I was reading a book on user-interface design today, and saw a chapter that discussed icons. The point the book was making is that icons which are too abstract leave far to much room for interpretation. The AIGA icons <a href="http://www.arrowsandicons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/symbol-signs-collection.gif" target="_blank">http://www.arrowsandicons.com/wp-content/u...-collection.gif</a> were used as an example of this, where some icons are clear but others are very hard to understand. The other end of the spectrum was icons which contain highly detailed miniaturized images which take longer to mentally decipher.
The best icon, according to the book, was something between the two extremes.... i.e. 50% abstract + 50% image, with text underneath.
Also i think something can be said about the use of bright blue in a lot of areas of NS2. At least they didn't use blue as a foreground font because that was a definite no-no according to the book, and especially so for smaller fonts. Blue as a background was considered good however, which the devs seemed to follow, but thin blue lines were considered bad.
Green would probably have been easier on the eyes... like the original design <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/NS2_commander_mockup.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/N...der_mockup.jpg</a> but i can only imagine some sort of water cooler discussion about deviating too far from NS1 led to the switch to blue colors like the original... <a href="http://www.lerk.de/bilder/commander-classic.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.lerk.de/bilder/commander-classic.jpg</a>.
Opinion time. Something about the way the "white" area of the abstract icons being represented as a gradient from white-to-blue seems a bit wrong to me, and maybe it would be better if the icons didn't blend so well with the background, with only the annoying bright blue corners to differentiate one button from another?
Good news is that we could pretty much expect people will be making modified commander interfaces to replace the default. I mean it's just a swf file. (smooth sailing as long as some "vanilla" server doesn't label such modifications to the interface as hacks)
When you start mixing reds/greens those who are colour blind start to have issues, etc.
Those icons are a great example of what is being talked about though. Some you instantly know what is going on, the dollar sign/ first aid and trash disposal.
<img src="http://www.arrowsandicons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/symbol-signs-collection.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Obviously there are no universal signs for 'stop unit' or 'plasma/carbon' resource. But they need to be iconic enough so that they are instantly recognisable.
There is also a view ration of 200:1 for fonts, so if something is 1cm in height the farthest distance that it can really be perceived from is 200cm away before it becomes uncomfortable.
I'm not going to argue that the icons shouldn't be as simple and iconic as possible. However, having all the icons be instantly recognizable, especially considering, as you pointed out, there are no universal signs for many of the items and features in NS2 that require UI symbols, is a pretty tall order.
Take these symbols, for example.
[attachment=35956:symbols.jpg]
Did you just always know that a giant P on a sign stands for Parking? Of course having lived our lives being exposed to these symbols we can instantly recognize them now, but many of these had to be learned at some point.
As with any new game there is a learning curve, and, while we can do our best to minimize the learning curve, its still going to be kind of overwhelming jumping into commander mode for the first time, and the facts are just that there are going to be a lot of icons and buttons that will need to be learned though either clicking on them to see what they do, or relying on tool tips. Its easy enough to say that an icon should be iconic and instantly recognizable, but much harder when you have to sit down and actually create them.
--Cory
Take these symbols, for example.
[attachment=35956:symbols.jpg]
Did you just always know that a giant P on a sign stands for Parking? Of course having lived our lives being exposed to these symbols we can instantly recognize them now, but many of these had to be learned at some point.
As with any new game there is a learning curve, and, while we can do our best to minimize the learning curve, its still going to be kind of overwhelming jumping into commander mode for the first time, and the facts are just that there are going to be a lot of icons and buttons that will need to be learned though either clicking on them to see what they do, or relying on tool tips. Its easy enough to say that an icon should be iconic and instantly recognizable, but much harder when you have to sit down and actually create them.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally, and I understand that completely. Branding/iconism is in - some - large part to do with consistency as well as recognition of something that is visually embedded into our minds.
For e.g
How you have made the 'back' through the menus the '<<' button consistent throughout, for both aliens and marines. Before - I think I am right in saying - there was an 'on/off' button as well.
If you look back through this post I have posted ideas in reference to learning curve as possible answers to this, as well as questions that are raised by a steep learning curve in a 'jump in' on-line environment.
You have clearly updated the GUI greatly and it is a lot more considered. There is an obvious trade off between aesthetic and functionality, and this is a game not a hospital ward. So pressing the wrong thing isn't going to kill anyone (for real). ;)
My issue is not all with the visuals of the GUI, or a direct criticism of the buttons you currently have in place. It is more concerns of a combination of scenarios of the GUI or GUI design in general.
My original post was addressing (mainly) a regards to the relationship between the commander and interface: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799824" target="_blank">Learning Curve</a>
As well as communication (location/stats/supply/etc) between commander and players: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799828" target="_blank">Communication</a>
My main reasons for posting this was partly to do with awareness, but mostly to do with the fact that design is something I am interested in (gaming/otherwise) and I don't currently have a job in (still searching after obtaining a degree in ID). Just thought it would be something to talk about whilst waiting for the next release.
Anyway, I hope you guys are enjoying the development. Looking forward to the next build.
P.s If I did have any 'very harsh' criticism of the resource set, it is perhaps that they both look very similar. Colour does not always cut the mustard, because the first things our brains recognise visually is silhouette and - I think I am right in saying - our strongest method of identification.
I suppose there is a possibility of getting them mixed up in stressful game situations (i.e. saving for stuff whilst doing lots of other stuff at the same time) Perhaps if the carbon was a green 'carbon rock' shape that was not encased in a circle it would go towards distinguishing the two.
Although, that doesn't mean icons shouldn't be intuitive in the first place given not every commander is going to be a pro. That being said, imo, the icons are plenty intuitive as is. I would guess "log out", "build", "stop" and "target/attack". Simple.
Next someone will be complaining that new players won't instantly recognise that the armory is a place where you get ammunition, instead of being an extending wardrobe with flashy lights.
This thread appears to be arguing for the sake of arguing. It's like political correctness gone mad.
EDIT: Spelling.
If people actually read this from the beginning (tl;dr) then they would understand what I am trying to get at.
Here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799823" target="_blank">1</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799824" target="_blank">2</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111133&view=findpost&p=1799828" target="_blank">3</a>
This isn't a 'you should do this thread', this is a 'how does rts/fps gameplay affect the relationship between commander and GUI'?.
If people actually read this from the beginning (tl;dr) then they would understand what I am trying to get at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd never presume my arguments could kill a thread, nor would I want them to. But thankyou for your particular attention Runteh.
I have been enjoying your NS2HD vids btw. Fills a gap!
Take these symbols, for example.
[attachment=35956:symbols.jpg]
Did you just always know that a giant P on a sign stands for Parking? Of course having lived our lives being exposed to these symbols we can instantly recognize them now, but <b>many of these</b> had to be learned at some point.
As with any new game there is a learning curve, and, while we can do our best to minimize the learning curve, its still going to be kind of overwhelming jumping into commander mode for the first time, and the facts are just that there are going to be a lot of icons and buttons that will need to be learned though either clicking on them to see what they do, or relying on tool tips. Its easy enough to say that an icon should be iconic and instantly recognizable, but much harder when you have to sit down and actually create them.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong, <b>ALL</b> of these had to be learned.
I think the point of this thread is to bring to light that the commander UI could use a little tweaking, which will result in improving the commander experience.
We cannot expect all (casual, i.e. non-clan) commanders are willing to learn the hotkeys for every function day-1, but a (slightly) improved/tweaked UI will lessen the learning curve which will bring them down that path.
Also i'm not sure how dissimilar the alien commander UI is, but considering how multiple marine commanders will be supported + one (or more?) alien commanders in the same game, the end result is a lot more people will be at the commanders helm then in NS1. Therefore the interface needs to be solid as much as possible, and tweaked based on community response.
<!--quoteo(post=1800728:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:46 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Oct 4 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next someone will be complaining that new players won't instantly recognise that the armory is a place where you get ammunition, instead of being an extending wardrobe with flashy lights.
This thread appears to be arguing for the sake of arguing. It's like political correctness gone mad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a good theme for another <strike>anti-</strike>community video. :P