<!--quoteo(post=1810519:date=Nov 25 2010, 04:40 PM:name=GingerNinja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GingerNinja @ Nov 25 2010, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having spikes do more damage when in mid air would actually encourage some interesting gameplay...
Just an idea. And I realise that it doesn't make sense...
But then we are talking about an alien that shoots gas and has a forever re-generating supply of spikes. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it makes perfect sense by the laws of physics. If you have a gun and are moving forward at a fast speed the bullets you fire are moving at the speed you are moving + the speed of being fired. So it makes sense that a lerk flying at someone while shooting spikes would have faster spikes and there for be more deadly :D
Meh, I don't think I'm really convincing anybody anymore, but...
<!--quoteo(post=1811530:date=Nov 28 2010, 06:50 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 28 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, but everyone is in the same position with regards to FPS. Also (video above) not everyone plays for 4 hours a day or has the time to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What does it matter that the FPS is same for everyone? The thing that matters is that people will hit your lerk better in the future. Sure, you can spike back a little more accurately with good FPS, but it's not going to change much if marine accuracy quadruples once the netcode and FPS improve.
It doesn't matter if <b>you</b> can't play NS "4 hours a day" (The way it seems, I could probably track NS2 lerk with a few hours a week if the netcode and FPS were optimized). It's enough that <b>someone</b> is able to aim and the lerk becomes a ridiculously easy target, no matter what you do. It doesn't have to have anything to with <b>your</b> time spent in gaming in particular.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the textures and walls in NS1 made it a lot easier to home in on aliens. Visually the background is incredibly complex in NS2. This will make tracking aliens a lot harder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To some extend I agree, but I don't think counting on people spraying walls forever is very good design, especially while the aiming is obviously hindered by the performance right now. Also, the more predictable the target is, the less effect the background is going to have.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is NS2, not NS1 also..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's the point? Creating a new game doesn't justify making bad design choises. The worst thing that NS2 can do is to refuse to learn anything from NS1.
You don't reinvent the guitar for each and every music album, sometimes you can just rearrange the chords to create a whole different kind of experience. It doesn't matter how many instruments you've invented in the process if a standard guitar would have done the job better.
<!--quoteo(post=1810995:date=Nov 26 2010, 08:22 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 26 2010, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge doesn't have a melee attack? I don't see any reason why they shouldn't. Taking options away from players is bad design IMHO YMMV<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, especially when we're giving marines a secondary melee attack with their rifles, let gorges bite, or smack with their snout, or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1810493:date=Nov 25 2010, 03:50 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Nov 25 2010, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BTW: The only melee thing a lerk should be able to is to slam into a marine's face at high velocity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1811534:date=Nov 28 2010, 06:04 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Nov 28 2010, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm having some trouble understanding what you're trying to say so I'll summarise my interpretation and you may correct me if I'm wrong.
You argue your point based on the following concepts: 1) that a design is fine if it's flawed only for a subset of the userbase, because being skilled at the fps portion of the game is an aberration 2) that knowledge is not to be generalised
Am I correct?
If I am, then number one is based on values and as such it's arguable either way and number two is a naïve concept that for obvious reasons doesn't hold when properly examined.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not saying that it is fine when flawed, but that if I have 15fps on a laptop at a resolution of 640 x 480 and can take out quite a few marines without camping in a vent as Lerk, then the statement in the thread title is way off.
True, who knows what things will be like once everything is optimised. But I am sure things will be balanced out.
<!--quoteo(post=1811628:date=Nov 29 2010, 05:14 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 29 2010, 05:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread literally ran out of arguments halfway through the first page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah exactly. I haven't heard a single convincing argument why spikes should be in the game. I can repeat what I said in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110960&hl=" target="_blank">thread</a> before, I don't know why we have a new one though.
<!--QuoteBegin-What I said Before+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (What I said Before)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you're serious about not repeating the mistakes of 1.0, then do not include spikes and use bite. Spikes were stupid in 1.04, if you've seen competitive games, lerks just sit in in safe positions and spike from there, most of the time anyway. After version 2 and 3, the lerks have had to engage in close-combat, trying to avoid bullets while making the decisive bites which is far more challenging then the "sitting in vents" strategy. After v3 the lerk has required dexterity, accuracy, good hand-eye coordination, spatial awareness and coordination to make it effective in close-combat. The best lerks are hard even for the best lmgs to track, compared to all other lifeforms which are easy to track. I cannot speak for everyone, but having played competitively since the first version I can tell you that most, if not all best lerks agree with me. Bite is much more interesting skill-wise.
Also spikes break the assymetry that has been between the sides. Aliens have been melee whereas marines have been ranged. Current NS1 version includes RTS-element, FPS-element, different kinds of melee elements and aerobatics-demanding lifeform, the Lerk. In no other game, there're so much variety. By introducing the spikes, you're going to remove a part of this colourful versatility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can check rest of the argument and discussion in that thread and at the end of it, people supporting spikes seemed to run out of them. I got even Tane to reply there, so if you're curious about the the issue, you should check it out. That thread has much more substance than this one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bacillus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Meh, I don't think I'm really convincing anybody anymore, but...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're definitely right. It doesn't matter even if you got all the competitive lerks to sign a petition and swear an oath with a hande on the Bible, that spikes just ruin the lerk, some people still think spike lerks have somehow more gameplay value. I've had these arguments about game mechanics with casual gamers on countless occasions during the past 8 years or so, and I'm not sure if I ever convinced anybody. The people who were convinced and changed their whole view of the NS world, were players who started playing competitively (Risme, Admirable etc.).
But paraphrasing Edmund Burke; all that is necessary for the triumph of bad game design is for good men to do nothing.
The game mechanics and even gameplay of NS2 has changed from NS1. There are new weapons and further features that will be added in the future of the game will further change the gameplay even more so then it has already changed. When marines get a level 2 command chair it opens up all of their advanced weaponry and allows them to get level 3 upgrades for their weapons and armor. Now think about this.
Flame Throwers, Melee Lerk, Level 2 or 3 armor. You're not killing that Marine in a couple bites. Take the spikes away from the Lerk in that situation and you have a useless alien class. Essentially you would be limiting the lerk to 1 attack only...his spores. The flame thrower is currently overpowered atm and I forsee a damage reduction in it's future...but still a flying, long range support class shouldn't have a melee attack. You'de be dead in a heart beat and may of not even landed a bite to do damage. They are going with the spikes because the game play mechanics have changed that it is essential for the alien team for have a long range class.
If you played any of the team fortress games, which is strictly a class based game, it comes down to the point that your team NEEDS certain classes to be filled even if you don't like the particular class...if you want to win...someones gotta play it.
There is really only two options that could be considered here.
#1. Keep the lerk as is, a long range support class.
#2. To keep the cry babies happy, allow the lerk to "evolve" or "mutate" into a Melee type class with a bite, taking away the spikes 100% and not being allowed to "de-evolve" or "mutate" back to the spikes, you'de have to die to get them back forcing you to evolve back into the Lerk wasting time and resources with 1 man off the playing field for the duration it takes to respawn and evolve.
My opinion, don't let the Lerk have bite. yeah they want the players to have fun playing the game...but not when it comes at the cost of making it harder for the Alien team to win giving that it would make the Alien team 98% Melee factoring in the Gorge spit....which isn't long range.
Honestly I think what is happening here is we have players who favored playing the Aliens more then the Marines and also favored the Lerk. So rather then actual discussion on balance and game play this is more of a QQ session about how people are upset their precious little Lerk is not the same as it use to be...but news flash...a lot of stuff is not the same in NS2 as it was in NS1. There are major changes everywhere...New game, new stuff and game play to get use to.
<!--quoteo(post=1811658:date=Nov 29 2010, 08:06 AM:name=OPIE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OPIE @ Nov 29 2010, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is really only two options that could be considered here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4, bite and spores, with an upgrade to use the sniper spikes, no normal spike spamming.
my problem with the current lerk is hes the best unit to destroy powernodes and structures, i dont think he sohuld be. I think the lerk should be a more specialist role for killing jump packers and terrorising marines. Not destroying buildings leave that to the onos and skulk
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I think what is happening here is we have players who favored playing the Aliens more then the Marines and also favored the Lerk. So rather then actual discussion on balance and game play this is more of a QQ session about how people are upset their precious little Lerk is not the same as it use to be...but news flash...a lot of stuff is not the same in NS2 as it was in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think balance arguments do not apply here, i.e. choosing between lerk bite or spike has nothing to do with balance. Here is the argument :
0. Choose bite or spike.
1. Put lerk damage to 0 and health to 1. Lerk is useless and aliens loose.
2. Put lerk damage and health to infinity. Lerk is overpowered and aliens win.
Therefor (by the intermediate value theorem), for both bite and spike, there exist intermediate values of damage and health where the game is balanced.
The point of each class having a different attack is so that the classes (this is the reason for classes btw) compliment each other and increase team work.
L4D is a great example of this with the zombie team.
Just because you thought it was cool in NS1, does not mean it is right for the game as a whole.
Having said that, we will have to see how things play out in the final release.
I for one was happy to see the lerk spike back, it give the aliens an early game ranged weapon. its handy to be able to take out sg's or rt's from a distance.
I for one stopped playing lerk once the spikes where removed in ns1 as the skulk is a better option if I have to get up close and personal.
When I fired up teh beta and discovered the spikes where back I was very happy, its good to see the devs also felt the lerk needed a long range weapon. I mean what alien would want to get up close and personal with marines when they could easily tear/damage its wings? Thats the total opposite of darwins theory.
the lerk does seem a little overpowered currently but I would expect its simply the early game aspect and that once we get jping rines that things will balance back out.
<!--quoteo(post=1810444:date=Nov 25 2010, 03:33 PM:name=rofldinho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rofldinho @ Nov 25 2010, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noone is going to be lerk in public servers if there are jetpacks and HA'd guys with LMGs there. Not unless another ability can deal good amounts of damage to marines.
But meh, maybe we just need to get used to the spikes. Will wait and see I guess, they'll no doubt change it later if it's not working.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't played this past week, but I agree that my biggest question about the lerk concerns the flight model. Flapping makes you go up much more than forward, making controlled flight difficult. With the NS1 lerk it was easy to zip into vents, and flapping made you go faster without changing your trajectory much. In NS2 I find myself spending too much time visiting ceilings and other obstructions while trying to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. Control while gliding is excellent, but control while picking up speed is a nightmare.
I look at spot X and then hit space a few times to pick up speed and slam into the wall way above spot X. In order to fly to sport X, I would either need to look some subjective distance below spot X while flapping or circle the room once so I can glide. It's not nearly as intuitive as it could be.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110960&st=60&p=1795628&#entry1795628" target="_blank">Read this please.</a> Probably the best set of arguments regarding lerking. I was well amazed when I noticed it was subs post
<!--quoteo(post=1812872:date=Dec 3 2010, 01:43 PM:name=enigmatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (enigmatic @ Dec 3 2010, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1812872"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110960&st=60&p=1795628&#entry1795628" target="_blank">Read this please.</a> Probably the best set of arguments regarding lerking. I was well amazed when I noticed it was subs post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My main problem with this post is the whole "anti-bite people are idiots" approach.
What's wrong with bite anyway? I don't see anybody complaining about swipe (which, face it, has the same effect as biting). Aliens are melee, why can't the lerk melee? Besides, I don't see the realism problem. Birds of prey swoop down on their target. Lerks are closer to birds than airplanes.
I've always seen the lerk as a support class, opposed to a hardcore, frontliner, "I kill everything solo and sew skin suits from their bloody remains" kinda guy. Since umbra is no more for lerkies, the spikes can provide the additional support that (in my eyes, which are fallible and a little bit salty) the class is for. Gas and all that is ranged, so it would make sense to give them further ranged abilities. The classes are supposed to be unique, no? And what is missing? A truly ranged unit.
Not to mention the invaluable ability to snipe structures and marines with fancy pants flamethrowers that just spin around and make everything crispy.
Without the spikes, the only ranged abilities the aliens have is gorge spit (easily dodgeable unless you're watching, ahem, "educational videos" on your 2nd monitor, tv, or newfangled iDoodad) and hydras, but those are stationary. I don't see the aliens as only melee, and logic that the lerk should be that way simply because real birds are is kinda silly... it's a friggin alien after all. If we're going by that logic, fades should wear pants and don fabulous haberdashery to cover their bald spots (/adjusts top hat).
I'm not saying biting is bad (it's fun and quite valid), but I don't feel as though spikes are the OMGENDOFTHEWOOOORLD. Is the sniping alt fire bad? I don't see it that way. It makes spikes useful against marines. Trying to kill someone with regular spikes is indeed annoying, but I don't believe that is how it was intended to be used anyways. It's a friggin great way to kill sentries outside of the range of fire though, and 2-shot-sniping a marine is quite satisfying.
<b>I vote to keep it as is, primarily because I'd rather have the game out than have them redesign an aspect nobody has really had the chance to see in action with the full complement of marine/alien abilities and units.</b>
For all we know, it could be just what the doctor/nurse/screeching-maniac ordered.
Instead of debating an issue that is purely hypothetical and not yet within its proper context, hows abouts we eat muffins and watch some Saved by the Bell until our eyes bleed. Sounds good? You bring the muffins (so help you god if there are raisins in them...)
Comments
Just an idea. And I realise that it doesn't make sense...
But then we are talking about an alien that shoots gas and has a forever re-generating supply of spikes. :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it makes perfect sense by the laws of physics. If you have a gun and are moving forward at a fast speed the bullets you fire are moving at the speed you are moving + the speed of being fired. So it makes sense that a lerk flying at someone while shooting spikes would have faster spikes and there for be more deadly :D
<!--quoteo(post=1811530:date=Nov 28 2010, 06:50 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 28 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, but everyone is in the same position with regards to FPS. Also (video above) not everyone plays for 4 hours a day or has the time to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does it matter that the FPS is same for everyone? The thing that matters is that people will hit your lerk better in the future. Sure, you can spike back a little more accurately with good FPS, but it's not going to change much if marine accuracy quadruples once the netcode and FPS improve.
It doesn't matter if <b>you</b> can't play NS "4 hours a day" (The way it seems, I could probably track NS2 lerk with a few hours a week if the netcode and FPS were optimized). It's enough that <b>someone</b> is able to aim and the lerk becomes a ridiculously easy target, no matter what you do. It doesn't have to have anything to with <b>your</b> time spent in gaming in particular.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the textures and walls in NS1 made it a lot easier to home in on aliens. Visually the background is incredibly complex in NS2. This will make tracking aliens a lot harder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To some extend I agree, but I don't think counting on people spraying walls forever is very good design, especially while the aiming is obviously hindered by the performance right now. Also, the more predictable the target is, the less effect the background is going to have.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is NS2, not NS1 also..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's the point? Creating a new game doesn't justify making bad design choises. The worst thing that NS2 can do is to refuse to learn anything from NS1.
You don't reinvent the guitar for each and every music album, sometimes you can just rearrange the chords to create a whole different kind of experience. It doesn't matter how many instruments you've invented in the process if a standard guitar would have done the job better.
I agree, especially when we're giving marines a secondary melee attack with their rifles, let gorges bite, or smack with their snout, or something.
this would please me greatly to see
You argue your point based on the following concepts:
1) that a design is fine if it's flawed only for a subset of the userbase, because being skilled at the fps portion of the game is an aberration
2) that knowledge is not to be generalised
Am I correct?
If I am, then number one is based on values and as such it's arguable either way and number two is a naïve concept that for obvious reasons doesn't hold when properly examined.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not saying that it is fine when flawed, but that if I have 15fps on a laptop at a resolution of 640 x 480 and can take out quite a few marines without camping in a vent as Lerk, then the statement in the thread title is way off.
True, who knows what things will be like once everything is optimised. But I am sure things will be balanced out.
Yeah that's right.
This thread literally ran out of arguments halfway through the first page.
Yeah exactly. I haven't heard a single convincing argument why spikes should be in the game. I can repeat what I said in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110960&hl=" target="_blank">thread</a> before, I don't know why we have a new one though.
<!--QuoteBegin-What I said Before+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (What I said Before)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you're serious about not repeating the mistakes of 1.0, then do not include spikes and use bite. Spikes were stupid in 1.04, if you've seen competitive games, lerks just sit in in safe positions and spike from there, most of the time anyway. After version 2 and 3, the lerks have had to engage in close-combat, trying to avoid bullets while making the decisive bites which is far more challenging then the "sitting in vents" strategy. After v3 the lerk has required dexterity, accuracy, good hand-eye coordination, spatial awareness and coordination to make it effective in close-combat. The best lerks are hard even for the best lmgs to track, compared to all other lifeforms which are easy to track. I cannot speak for everyone, but having played competitively since the first version I can tell you that most, if not all best lerks agree with me. Bite is much more interesting skill-wise.
Also spikes break the assymetry that has been between the sides. Aliens have been melee whereas marines have been ranged. Current NS1 version includes RTS-element, FPS-element, different kinds of melee elements and aerobatics-demanding lifeform, the Lerk. In no other game, there're so much variety. By introducing the spikes, you're going to remove a part of this colourful versatility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can check rest of the argument and discussion in that thread and at the end of it, people supporting spikes seemed to run out of them. I got even Tane to reply there, so if you're curious about the the issue, you should check it out. That thread has much more substance than this one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bacillus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Meh, I don't think I'm really convincing anybody anymore, but...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're definitely right. It doesn't matter even if you got all the competitive lerks to sign a petition and swear an oath with a hande on the Bible, that spikes just ruin the lerk, some people still think spike lerks have somehow more gameplay value. I've had these arguments about game mechanics with casual gamers on countless occasions during the past 8 years or so, and I'm not sure if I ever convinced anybody. The people who were convinced and changed their whole view of the NS world, were players who started playing competitively (Risme, Admirable etc.).
But paraphrasing Edmund Burke; all that is necessary for the triumph of bad game design is for good men to do nothing.
The game mechanics and even gameplay of NS2 has changed from NS1. There are new weapons and further features that will be added in the future of the game will further change the gameplay even more so then it has already changed. When marines get a level 2 command chair it opens up all of their advanced weaponry and allows them to get level 3 upgrades for their weapons and armor. Now think about this.
Flame Throwers, Melee Lerk, Level 2 or 3 armor. You're not killing that Marine in a couple bites. Take the spikes away from the Lerk in that situation and you have a useless alien class. Essentially you would be limiting the lerk to 1 attack only...his spores. The flame thrower is currently overpowered atm and I forsee a damage reduction in it's future...but still a flying, long range support class shouldn't have a melee attack. You'de be dead in a heart beat and may of not even landed a bite to do damage. They are going with the spikes because the game play mechanics have changed that it is essential for the alien team for have a long range class.
If you played any of the team fortress games, which is strictly a class based game, it comes down to the point that your team NEEDS certain classes to be filled even if you don't like the particular class...if you want to win...someones gotta play it.
There is really only two options that could be considered here.
#1. Keep the lerk as is, a long range support class.
#2. To keep the cry babies happy, allow the lerk to "evolve" or "mutate" into a Melee type class with a bite, taking away the spikes 100% and not being allowed to "de-evolve" or "mutate" back to the spikes, you'de have to die to get them back forcing you to evolve back into the Lerk wasting time and resources with 1 man off the playing field for the duration it takes to respawn and evolve.
My opinion, don't let the Lerk have bite. yeah they want the players to have fun playing the game...but not when it comes at the cost of making it harder for the Alien team to win giving that it would make the Alien team 98% Melee factoring in the Gorge spit....which isn't long range.
Honestly I think what is happening here is we have players who favored playing the Aliens more then the Marines and also favored the Lerk. So rather then actual discussion on balance and game play this is more of a QQ session about how people are upset their precious little Lerk is not the same as it use to be...but news flash...a lot of stuff is not the same in NS2 as it was in NS1. There are major changes everywhere...New game, new stuff and game play to get use to.
alot more than 2 CRY BABY
3, max.
Spikes, no bite
Bite, no spikes
Spikes and bite.
The other options are just nuanced variations, but fall into one of the aforementioned subsets I think.
my problem with the current lerk is hes the best unit to destroy powernodes and structures, i dont think he sohuld be. I think the lerk should be a more specialist role for killing jump packers and terrorising marines. Not destroying buildings leave that to the onos and skulk
I think balance arguments do not apply here, i.e. choosing between lerk bite or spike has nothing to do with balance. Here is the argument :
0. Choose bite or spike.
1. Put lerk damage to 0 and health to 1. Lerk is useless and aliens loose.
2. Put lerk damage and health to infinity. Lerk is overpowered and aliens win.
Therefor (by the intermediate value theorem), for both bite and spike, there exist intermediate values of damage and health where the game is balanced.
L4D is a great example of this with the zombie team.
Just because you thought it was cool in NS1, does not mean it is right for the game as a whole.
Having said that, we will have to see how things play out in the final release.
I'm holding out on the NS1 mod for NS2.
I for one stopped playing lerk once the spikes where removed in ns1 as the skulk is a better option if I have to get up close and personal.
When I fired up teh beta and discovered the spikes where back I was very happy, its good to see the devs also felt the lerk needed a long range weapon.
I mean what alien would want to get up close and personal with marines when they could easily tear/damage its wings? Thats the total opposite of darwins theory.
the lerk does seem a little overpowered currently but I would expect its simply the early game aspect and that once we get jping rines that things will balance back out.
It was useless about 8 pages ago.
But meh, maybe we just need to get used to the spikes. Will wait and see I guess, they'll no doubt change it later if it's not working.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lerks get an armor penetration upgrade
I haven't played this past week, but I agree that my biggest question about the lerk concerns the flight model. Flapping makes you go up much more than forward, making controlled flight difficult. With the NS1 lerk it was easy to zip into vents, and flapping made you go faster without changing your trajectory much. In NS2 I find myself spending too much time visiting ceilings and other obstructions while trying to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. Control while gliding is excellent, but control while picking up speed is a nightmare.
I look at spot X and then hit space a few times to pick up speed and slam into the wall way above spot X. In order to fly to sport X, I would either need to look some subjective distance below spot X while flapping or circle the room once so I can glide. It's not nearly as intuitive as it could be.
*my map is lacking a roof in about 80% of the layout currently, so getting outside of the map is easy for me!
My main problem with this post is the whole "anti-bite people are idiots" approach.
What's wrong with bite anyway? I don't see anybody complaining about swipe (which, face it, has the same effect as biting).
Aliens are melee, why can't the lerk melee? Besides, I don't see the realism problem. Birds of prey swoop down on their target. Lerks are closer to birds than airplanes.
Not to mention the invaluable ability to snipe structures and marines with fancy pants flamethrowers that just spin around and make everything crispy.
Without the spikes, the only ranged abilities the aliens have is gorge spit (easily dodgeable unless you're watching, ahem, "educational videos" on your 2nd monitor, tv, or newfangled iDoodad) and hydras, but those are stationary. I don't see the aliens as only melee, and logic that the lerk should be that way simply because real birds are is kinda silly... it's a friggin alien after all. If we're going by that logic, fades should wear pants and don fabulous haberdashery to cover their bald spots (/adjusts top hat).
I'm not saying biting is bad (it's fun and quite valid), but I don't feel as though spikes are the OMGENDOFTHEWOOOORLD. Is the sniping alt fire bad? I don't see it that way. It makes spikes useful against marines. Trying to kill someone with regular spikes is indeed annoying, but I don't believe that is how it was intended to be used anyways. It's a friggin great way to kill sentries outside of the range of fire though, and 2-shot-sniping a marine is quite satisfying.
<b>I vote to keep it as is, primarily because I'd rather have the game out than have them redesign an aspect nobody has really had the chance to see in action with the full complement of marine/alien abilities and units.</b>
For all we know, it could be just what the doctor/nurse/screeching-maniac ordered.
Instead of debating an issue that is purely hypothetical and not yet within its proper context, hows abouts we eat muffins and watch some Saved by the Bell until our eyes bleed. Sounds good? You bring the muffins (so help you god if there are raisins in them...)