<!--quoteo(post=1817671:date=Dec 20 2010, 06:23 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Dec 20 2010, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1817671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ever hopped from random Classic NS server to random classic NS server?
That's right... because there are so few left because it takes a massive effort and amount of team play in a public domain.
/walks off wearing his anti-flame suit
:p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not so much that as hl is OLD and because its not shiny enough people dont play it anymore. only hardcore fans are still playing hl1 and its mods. look at tf, cs, dod, etc etc etc.. people eventually move on to the next big game.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1817671:date=Dec 21 2010, 01:23 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Dec 21 2010, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1817671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/walks off wearing his anti-flame suit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You came prepared! I see a premeditated flame, you sir are guilty as charged :P
<!--quoteo(post=1817631:date=Dec 21 2010, 06:32 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Dec 21 2010, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1817631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rather then having single player mode, do this.
tutorial mode: (depends which he selects marine or alien)
he can watch video 1. start with basic information 2. explaining in detail 3. showing examples - objectives
you get the idea. This might be easier to do than making the developers make single player mode.
lastly, you can have tutorial gaming tips which should give small tooltips of objects in the game for players. this option can be turned off in the settings, but by default its turned on - to help new players in-game.
this is honestly simple, and effective ways many games usually deal with new players, aside from making single player tutorial game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. I think we already established that people don't play tutorials.
<!--quoteo(post=1816542:date=Dec 16 2010, 11:12 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 16 2010, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]You could remove E build, the welder, and medpacks, and instead unify all three under a general purpose toolkit given to every marine, pressing E on an unbuilt building or damaged building makes him take out his welder an build/fix it, pressing E on a wounded soldier makes him take out a medpack and stick a needle in the marine to heal him some.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This makes me wonder if you've ever played classic in NS1. It's exactly that kind of simplification that i hope will not find it's way into NS2. And i am quite sure there are lots of players that think the same way.
Just imagine the rines healing each other all the time...
If the COMM drops a welder for me, i have to use it wisely. It costs res, so i try not to waste it. When used in a proper way (a single welder per squad = difference between sudden death and standing a few bites), it's extremely valuable. When given to a player who doesn't know how to use it it's just wasted res.
So players need to know what to do. And i am quite sure the people at UWE will have a look at how to clarify that to new players.
Imo it's ok to expect from players to think about what they are doing. <u>But they still need information</u>. Good tutorial videos can do the job (just don't expect every nooB to look for them on YouTube), popups can do it too. The map loading screens used in Eternal Silence are a good way to deliver some basic information too.
I still don't know how the new res-system works. Couldn't find any compact information about it. No problem to me. I'll figure it out as soon as i get my NS2 to work. But i have a strong motivation, since i've been playing NS1 for more than 7 years now. New players don't have this strong motivation. This doesn't necessarily mean they are stupid. They just don't know what to gain if they take their time to figure everything out.
I am just glad there won't be a combat mode readily implemented. Ever since the invention of combat, classic-pubs where swarmed with players that didn't know what to do. They didn't even try to figure out.
Why?
They didn't need to! If teamplay did not work out, they could just switch back to combat.
If you want to help UWE with this, let your uberNooB friend play a round of NS2 and look what problems he/she encounters. They don't have the money for excessive playtesting, and like cory said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is still always helpful to hear about experiences that new players are having, as some things that may seem perfectly clear and obvious to us, can actually be quite the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This "us" includes all experienced players i'd say.
Remember NS1 1.4 (or something like that)? It was kinda imba. As soon as the aliens had a 2. hive the rines usually were doomed. BUT: Nothing beats the great feeling of turning such a game around and beating the aliens after they put up a 2. Hive. For experienced players the difficulties add to the fun sometimes. Just keep that in mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1816424:date=Dec 16 2010, 07:35 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 16 2010, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wait.. you mean a new game genre requires more than 5 minutes to master? if you dont learn in the first 5 minutes that teamwork is important in NS and you quit well then NS wasnt the game for you anyway. almost every point you make is due to poor teamwork. maps looking like endless corridors is just your own opinion.
sounds like youd be right at home in black ops.
go go theres a bomb that needs diffusing.. somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice knee-jerk reaction. People need a place to learn to play commander. I can play FPS part just fine, do quite well at it but no matter how many hours you play the FPS part of the game you can't learn the commander without doing it in-game where people are trying to have a decent match and many don't want to deal with a commander who doesn't know how to access the higher techs or something or whatever.
And you might have to head back to CoD because of your hostility to the idea that "easy to learn, hard to master" is a bad idea, we could very well end up with near empty NS2 servers on release.
Neither I nor the OP are suggesting ANYTHING be taken away from the gameplay, everything he has suggested is perfectly valid, especially having some way for the commander to practice.
In the old days good commanders always were happy to teach other players. That's how I learned it, 2 guys on my team told me what to do and we ended winning. So, after that I always tried to help other players to understand the commander position. The problem comes with the players used to play alone all the time, they want a commander that already know everything about the game, and if you are just learning they kick you out of the CC. Instead of helping you to be better at NS they just kick you out. Or worst, they kick you because you are trying a different strategy, and one of them jump in and recycle all what you did, lose.
Of course, it will be nice if in the final release of NS2 we have a tutorial ingame (like an sp mode), so you can learn a little more fast, but then the experienced commanders should help them to become better.
yep never viewed tutorials, in TF2 their basic first maps (dust bowl? and a couple more) had a olds style movie themed tutorial EVERY time you joined the game, you had to option to skip it but when you first joined it was very click and the button was on the screen.
TF2 also had a offline tutorial with the simple class soldier, these two combined assures anyone with enquiry on gameplay will be completely fine.
As well as having tool tips on each class, in class selection there was a VERY detailed explaination of each class, their traits, what they CAN do and what they CANNOT do or basicly like their pros and cons.
when i first started playing TF2 i completely ignored both the offline and the map tutorials, the map tutorial showed the objective of the game and the location of both teams and which way to go with a very clear third person view.
as soon as i got raped like a onos VS a marine, i was like WOW i didnt get that i got headshotted, what the hell my own teammate killed me? OH it was a spy... wait... whats a spy
thus i read all the details about each class, i played more, got better and with the healthy friendly environment of people assiting me when i asked questions (despite some that were like "are you noob?" "dont lie, you know this game")
So to get to my point this is what i recommend:
a tutorial with Bots and a SUPER clear tool tip and possible... with like a hologram or a voice that leads your way (like in half life or portal)
NS2 is a very big game, alot of depth and theres only 500+ ways to win the objective(s) of the game.
So learning the basics is important.
NS2 players will not be scared away if you make something that can teach them what they NEED rather than what they WANT
because learning all the cool things/best things to do in the game by experience is by far the best.
so telling the player with a tool tip/tutorial that you can buy things from the armory will allow the player to go and do it, after he does that, thus he wields the awesome shotgun where he feels great and starts to kill better. Then he learns that you get things from the armory. Rather than telling him what he wants...
just pointing out that people on this post have said many things related to this, and a very clear tutorial giving ENOUGH help will get them started so when they die they wont get mad.
good topic ^^, i suggest a tutorial with the tool tips+assitance for new players because thats the way to go!
This game is not terribly complex. Yes, it's dynamic, tons of fun and fast paced but there are many hugely popular games out there with far deeper complexity to them. I don't feel that NS2 is at any risk of losing players due to learning curve.
Anyone who has played an FPS or two can figure out NS in a few matches. They won't be experts, but they'll be competent enough to contribute to the team.
I definitely think some kind of single-player sandbox with tool tips or instruction would be very helpful to get people up to speed with commanding, and how the game works in general. Heck, you could do it easily with a little flash app on the website.
I think ground troops should be able to see more information as to how the game is going, like pressing a button to bring up / view the current tech tree.
<!--quoteo(post=1817907:date=Dec 21 2010, 07:39 PM:name=DerAndere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DerAndere @ Dec 21 2010, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1817907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This makes me wonder if you've ever played classic in NS1. It's exactly that kind of simplification that i hope will not find it's way into NS2. And i am quite sure there are lots of players that think the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS has always been unique. It's not a game you startup, play for 15 minutes and see yourself ending up as one of the top 3 players. And I think 99% of NS players like to keep it that way.
In the final version, I'm sure there will be enough 'helpers', tips, pop-up thingies and whatever to get new players started. Don't worry. Things like tutorials with bots are a complete waste of precious coding time. How about players figure the game out by themselves and put some effort in it? Documentation and some tooltips should be enough.
Although I love theorycrafting and learn about things by reading (even games) I would never ever play a tutorial (if it's not included into the game, see Demon's Souls for example) I just want to start the real game and I guess especially in a FPS game people would always skip the tutorial for the instant action.
The tooltips you get now during gameplay are quite nice and I think it's the right way to do.
But, the commander mode seems to be the problem and should be adressed in some way (multiple commanders could work to teach the very basics of RTS during the actual round) I'm not sure if sandbox mode is enough to encourage new players or even experienced FPS players to figure out tech builds and strategies on their own.
Maybe some kind of tutoring a experienced commander can sign up to and actively teach others and get some kind of achievement for it (might be enough motivation) or - dare I say it- a stupid ingame hat to boost his epeen (just to motivate people to help each other). The problem with this might be that if you put a value to something people start to think about if they actually need it ... so it might happen that any helpfull person would just say: "No I don't need a ***** hat, so I won't help you!" .... but that's another topic :)
Yeah that would be neat. We just need someone to start the project and gather some people ! Unfortunatly my programming skills are really weak so I'm not sure if I can contribute to that at all :(
<!--quoteo(post=1819760:date=Dec 28 2010, 07:34 AM:name=ktimekiller)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktimekiller @ Dec 28 2010, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>From what I can gather</b> from this 7 page long ###### and whine fest is the following
- I suck at games - Game is more complex than CoD #968 - Game should be more like CoD #968<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that's why they put you in the <b>special</b> class.
<!--quoteo(post=1819708:date=Dec 28 2010, 01:34 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Dec 28 2010, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about the devs concentrate on the actual game, and we come up with a community created tutorial that UW can include into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, not keen on tutorials - doubt anyone else is. Tutorials packaged as a single player campaign / challenges would work fine though. It's a cheap way to (not teach, but to) get people to learn. Also, it's true that people just want to jump in and play the game, rather than do a tutorial - a single player campaign would satisfy that. Those who've played NS1 before would want to jump straight into the MP component of NS2 <b>first</b>, but that's fine, because they're not really who the SP component is targeted to.
I don't understand the harm in including an optional tutorial for players who do like to learn prior to playing an online game. For those of us that already know how to play, or don't care to bother with tutorials, we will never have to see or deal with it. It doesn't need to be integrated into any maps, or any part of MP for that matter. For most of us, it would be a button in the menu we never push. What's wrong with that?
The problem is that for most people who actually need the tutorial, they do the same: they never use it, and then it leaves them with a bad taste after not understanding what the hell is going on and getting absolutely owned.
Most people, myself included, are of the opinion that we shouldn't need to do a tutorial just to play a game. We're not learning a trade, here. We're here to have fun.
The difference with singleplayer is that it <b>is</b> a tutorial, but it's packaged under the guise of a single-player campaign (or challenges) with cinematic moments (not necessarily cut-scenes) and a plot (not necessarily an award-winning novel). Mostly, <u>it's a deception</u>. But it's a <b>willing</b> deception; because (<i>ideally</i>) it's fun.
I have only read the first page, so I don't know if what I'll suggest has already been suggested.
To solve problems like "OMGWTF what is that building???", there could be some tips displayed while joining a server (just like in TF2), like showing a picture of the armory and a text like this "Have you ever felt that your weapon is just not that much effective? Well, problem solved! You can pick up new gear like the powerful shotgun or the amazing flamethrower through the Armory, so you can stay helping your team while kicking aliens' ass!" or something like that. There could be tips for the next map, tips for gorge playing, tips for teamwork, tips for anything. That could help.
<!--quoteo(post=1819831:date=Dec 28 2010, 02:39 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Dec 28 2010, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we create a thread to suggest loading screen tips so that they could populate it faster when it gets implemented?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good idea. I was thinking of constructing a thread where we can brainstorm an SP campaign.
<!--quoteo(post=1819831:date=Dec 28 2010, 07:39 AM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Dec 28 2010, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we create a thread to suggest loading screen tips so that they could populate it faster when it gets implemented?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think this is something that needs priority right now, more something you implement in the final stages of development.
But screen tips are the right way to go, in my opinion, to teach people how to play. It worked in NS1... why wouldn't it be it enough for NS2? I don't like the trend of brainless, commercial shooters for the mass (Modern Warfare) without any learning curve.
Thank god a new, original shooter is on the way that actually challenges players to use both FPS and RTS skills and makes them think about every move.
Most of you already <i>know</i> how Natural Selection plays because of the ample amount of time you've spent with the game. You're liable gloss over quite a bit with regards to features or the experience as a whole. Imagine someone new to the game though or god forbid shooters in general. You have to keep that stuff in mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1819860:date=Dec 28 2010, 07:46 AM:name=Dennis_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dennis_ @ Dec 28 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think this is something that needs priority right now, more something you implement in the final stages of development.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I usually agree, but if we're just talking text, it'd be stupidly easy to add at this point. Having users come up with the tips would only make it easier, which is why I suggested it. :)
detailed, Ingame, graphic tutorials would be the perfect solution to all of that. or like a handsheet with all informations + pictures.
no need to do major changes to the UI.
But I like the idea of signs like in TF2. Ofc they should fit the environment.
btw: you don't need to know all that stuff to jsut go in and shoot some aliens. you got your gun. you know what you are supposed to shoot...all set and ready.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->detailed, Ingame, graphic tutorials would be the perfect solution to all of that. or like a handsheet with all informations + pictures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Comprehensive solution, maybe. Perfect? No. It is imperfect due to the fact that only the truly hardcore will ever go to the effort of reading such a handsheet, and only a select few will have the patience and/or dedication to sit through a boring tutorial.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->btw: you don't need to know all that stuff to jsut go in and shoot some aliens. you got your gun. you know what you are supposed to shoot...all set and ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As true as this is, it's not the whole truth, or even the greater part of it. And that's the problem: NS is much more (complex) than that.
<!--quoteo(post=1819976:date=Dec 29 2010, 02:16 AM:name=doeseph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (doeseph @ Dec 29 2010, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it that a well thought out and respectful thread such as this one receives the same response as a belligerent and incomprehensible one? "OH MY GOD, NO, YOU'RE WRONG, I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN DESCRIBE HOW WRONG YOU ARE. THIS GAME IS GREAT. NOTHING NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. YOU'RE AN IDIOT. YOU SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU ARE ASKING TOO MUCH OF THE DEVELOPERS. STOP TRYING TO RUIN THE GAME. IT'S LIKE THAT FOR A REASON, AND CHANGING IT WOULD CHANGE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE UNIVERSE. WAH!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No worries, it takes a lot -- more than a bunch of sillies on the interweb -- to hurt my feelings. I only hope that UWE is as thick-skinned. I don't want to see a bunch of bright folks lose their lunch money by putting out a brilliant game that is incomprehensible to all but the most patient and/or obsessive. I don't think that they're in danger of putting out a game that is too stupid (almost all console FPS, DoA series, etc.), but they are somewhat in danger of putting out one that is too smart.
I stand by my initial assertion: the "hardcore" audience will take any predetermined advantage they can get. There is nothing inherently wrong with this IMO, but it does drive away new audiences. Games like Starcraft, American football, and D&D have complex rules, but they also have the cultural footprint that NS does not and likely will never have. Fact of life.
The first 15-30 minutes of a new player's first NS game need to be fun, or there's a significant risk that that person will leave with a very negative impression of NS instead of telling all their friends that they have to get this game *right now*.
<!--quoteo(post=1819831:date=Dec 27 2010, 10:39 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Dec 27 2010, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we create a thread to suggest loading screen tips so that they could populate it faster when it gets implemented?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While in general a good idea, I'm very wary about thinking they are a fix-all.
See NeoTokyo where they relied on little screens at the beginning of every round to help explain the nuances of the game (of which there were many). This, while helpful as you kept playing, only worked once you read about 10 of them. There seemed to be a very odd sense of "dangit, I just died! oh, here's the stupid prompt that explains how I died" syndrome.
So, yes, I wholeheartedly support using loading-screen/death cam hints/prompts. However, they are only a partial solution, not the silver bullet.
Comments
That's right... because there are so few left because it takes a massive effort and amount of team play in a public domain.
/walks off wearing his anti-flame suit
:p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not so much that as hl is OLD and because its not shiny enough people dont play it anymore. only hardcore fans are still playing hl1 and its mods. look at tf, cs, dod, etc etc etc.. people eventually move on to the next big game.
You came prepared! I see a premeditated flame, you sir are guilty as charged :P
tutorial mode: (depends which he selects marine or alien)
he can watch video
1. start with basic information
2. explaining in detail
3. showing examples - objectives
you get the idea. This might be easier to do than making the developers make single player mode.
lastly, you can have tutorial gaming tips which should give small tooltips of objects in the game for players.
this option can be turned off in the settings, but by default its turned on - to help new players in-game.
this is honestly simple, and effective ways many games usually deal with new players, aside from making single player tutorial game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I think we already established that people don't play tutorials.
This makes me wonder if you've ever played classic in NS1. It's exactly that kind of simplification that i hope will not find it's way into NS2. And i am quite sure there are lots of players that think the same way.
Just imagine the rines healing each other all the time...
If the COMM drops a welder for me, i have to use it wisely. It costs res, so i try not to waste it. When used in a proper way (a single welder per squad = difference between sudden death and standing a few bites), it's extremely valuable. When given to a player who doesn't know how to use it it's just wasted res.
So players need to know what to do. And i am quite sure the people at UWE will have a look at how to clarify that to new players.
Imo it's ok to expect from players to think about what they are doing. <u>But they still need information</u>. Good tutorial videos can do the job (just don't expect every nooB to look for them on YouTube), popups can do it too. The map loading screens used in Eternal Silence are a good way to deliver some basic information too.
I still don't know how the new res-system works. Couldn't find any compact information about it. No problem to me. I'll figure it out as soon as i get my NS2 to work. But i have a strong motivation, since i've been playing NS1 for more than 7 years now. New players don't have this strong motivation. This doesn't necessarily mean they are stupid. They just don't know what to gain if they take their time to figure everything out.
I am just glad there won't be a combat mode readily implemented. Ever since the invention of combat, classic-pubs where swarmed with players that didn't know what to do. They didn't even try to figure out.
Why?
They didn't need to! If teamplay did not work out, they could just switch back to combat.
If you want to help UWE with this, let your uberNooB friend play a round of NS2 and look what problems he/she encounters. They don't have the money for excessive playtesting, and like cory said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is still always helpful to hear about experiences that new players are having, as some things that may seem perfectly clear and obvious to us, can actually be quite the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This "us" includes all experienced players i'd say.
Remember NS1 1.4 (or something like that)? It was kinda imba. As soon as the aliens had a 2. hive the rines usually were doomed. BUT: Nothing beats the great feeling of turning such a game around and beating the aliens after they put up a 2. Hive. For experienced players the difficulties add to the fun sometimes. Just keep that in mind.
sounds like youd be right at home in black ops.
go go theres a bomb that needs diffusing.. somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice knee-jerk reaction. People need a place to learn to play commander. I can play FPS part just fine, do quite well at it but no matter how many hours you play the FPS part of the game you can't learn the commander without doing it in-game where people are trying to have a decent match and many don't want to deal with a commander who doesn't know how to access the higher techs or something or whatever.
And you might have to head back to CoD because of your hostility to the idea that "easy to learn, hard to master" is a bad idea, we could very well end up with near empty NS2 servers on release.
Neither I nor the OP are suggesting ANYTHING be taken away from the gameplay, everything he has suggested is perfectly valid, especially having some way for the commander to practice.
The problem comes with the players used to play alone all the time, they want a commander that already know everything about the game, and if you are just learning they kick you out of the CC. Instead of helping you to be better at NS they just kick you out. Or worst, they kick you because you are trying a different strategy, and one of them jump in and recycle all what you did, lose.
Of course, it will be nice if in the final release of NS2 we have a tutorial ingame (like an sp mode), so you can learn a little more fast, but then the experienced commanders should help them to become better.
TF2 also had a offline tutorial with the simple class soldier, these two combined assures anyone with enquiry on gameplay will be completely fine.
As well as having tool tips on each class, in class selection there was a VERY detailed explaination of each class, their traits, what they CAN do and what they CANNOT do or basicly like their pros and cons.
when i first started playing TF2 i completely ignored both the offline and the map tutorials, the map tutorial showed the objective of the game and the location of both teams and which way to go with a very clear third person view.
as soon as i got raped like a onos VS a marine, i was like WOW i didnt get that i got headshotted, what the hell my own teammate killed me? OH it was a spy... wait... whats a spy
thus i read all the details about each class, i played more, got better and with the healthy friendly environment of people assiting me when i asked questions (despite some that were like "are you noob?" "dont lie, you know this game")
So to get to my point this is what i recommend:
a tutorial with Bots and a SUPER clear tool tip and possible... with like a hologram or a voice that leads your way (like in half life or portal)
NS2 is a very big game, alot of depth and theres only 500+ ways to win the objective(s) of the game.
So learning the basics is important.
NS2 players will not be scared away if you make something that can teach them what they NEED rather than what they WANT
because learning all the cool things/best things to do in the game by experience is by far the best.
so telling the player with a tool tip/tutorial that you can buy things from the armory will allow the player to go and do it, after he does that, thus he wields the awesome shotgun where he feels great and starts to kill better. Then he learns that you get things from the armory. Rather than telling him what he wants...
just pointing out that people on this post have said many things related to this, and a very clear tutorial giving ENOUGH help will get them started so when they die they wont get mad.
good topic ^^, i suggest a tutorial with the tool tips+assitance for new players because thats the way to go!
Anyone who has played an FPS or two can figure out NS in a few matches. They won't be experts, but they'll be competent enough to contribute to the team.
I definitely think some kind of single-player sandbox with tool tips or instruction would be very helpful to get people up to speed with commanding, and how the game works in general. Heck, you could do it easily with a little flash app on the website.
Extensively.
There was a reason I stopped.
In the final version, I'm sure there will be enough 'helpers', tips, pop-up thingies and whatever to get new players started. Don't worry. Things like tutorials with bots are a complete waste of precious coding time. How about players figure the game out by themselves and put some effort in it? Documentation and some tooltips should be enough.
Although I love theorycrafting and learn about things by reading (even games) I would never ever play a tutorial (if it's not included into the game, see Demon's Souls for example) I just want to start the real game and I guess especially in a FPS game people would always skip the tutorial for the instant action.
The tooltips you get now during gameplay are quite nice and I think it's the right way to do.
But, the commander mode seems to be the problem and should be adressed in some way (multiple commanders could work to teach the very basics of RTS during the actual round) I'm not sure if sandbox mode is enough to encourage new players or even experienced FPS players to figure out tech builds and strategies on their own.
Maybe some kind of tutoring a experienced commander can sign up to and actively teach others and get some kind of achievement for it (might be enough motivation) or - dare I say it- a stupid ingame hat to boost his epeen (just to motivate people to help each other).
The problem with this might be that if you put a value to something people start to think about if they actually need it ... so it might happen that any helpfull person would just say: "No I don't need a ***** hat, so I won't help you!" .... but that's another topic :)
- I suck at games
- Game is more complex than CoD #968
- Game should be more like CoD #968
I don't mind it, but I often find myself going to aim and end up meleeing thin air instead.
- I suck at games
- Game is more complex than CoD #968
- Game should be more like CoD #968<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's why they put you in the <b>special</b> class.
<!--quoteo(post=1819708:date=Dec 28 2010, 01:34 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Dec 28 2010, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about the devs concentrate on the actual game, and we come up with a community created tutorial that UW can include into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, not keen on tutorials - doubt anyone else is. Tutorials packaged as a single player campaign / challenges would work fine though. It's a cheap way to (not teach, but to) get people to learn. Also, it's true that people just want to jump in and play the game, rather than do a tutorial - a single player campaign would satisfy that. Those who've played NS1 before would want to jump straight into the MP component of NS2 <b>first</b>, but that's fine, because they're not really who the SP component is targeted to.
Most people, myself included, are of the opinion that we shouldn't need to do a tutorial just to play a game. We're not learning a trade, here. We're here to have fun.
The difference with singleplayer is that it <b>is</b> a tutorial, but it's packaged under the guise of a single-player campaign (or challenges) with cinematic moments (not necessarily cut-scenes) and a plot (not necessarily an award-winning novel). Mostly, <u>it's a deception</u>. But it's a <b>willing</b> deception; because (<i>ideally</i>) it's fun.
To solve problems like "OMGWTF what is that building???", there could be some tips displayed while joining a server (just like in TF2), like showing a picture of the armory and a text like this "Have you ever felt that your weapon is just not that much effective? Well, problem solved! You can pick up new gear like the powerful shotgun or the amazing flamethrower through the Armory, so you can stay helping your team while kicking aliens' ass!" or something like that. There could be tips for the next map, tips for gorge playing, tips for teamwork, tips for anything. That could help.
Good idea. I was thinking of constructing a thread where we can brainstorm an SP campaign.
I don't think this is something that needs priority right now, more something you implement in the final stages of development.
But screen tips are the right way to go, in my opinion, to teach people how to play. It worked in NS1... why wouldn't it be it enough for NS2? I don't like the trend of brainless, commercial shooters for the mass (Modern Warfare) without any learning curve.
Thank god a new, original shooter is on the way that actually challenges players to use both FPS and RTS skills and makes them think about every move.
or like a handsheet with all informations + pictures.
no need to do major changes to the UI.
But I like the idea of signs like in TF2. Ofc they should fit the environment.
btw: you don't need to know all that stuff to jsut go in and shoot some aliens. you got your gun. you know what you are supposed to shoot...all set and ready.
or like a handsheet with all informations + pictures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comprehensive solution, maybe. Perfect? No. It is imperfect due to the fact that only the truly hardcore will ever go to the effort of reading such a handsheet, and only a select few will have the patience and/or dedication to sit through a boring tutorial.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->btw: you don't need to know all that stuff to jsut go in and shoot some aliens. you got your gun. you know what you are supposed to shoot...all set and ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As true as this is, it's not the whole truth, or even the greater part of it. And that's the problem: NS is much more (complex) than that.
No worries, it takes a lot -- more than a bunch of sillies on the interweb -- to hurt my feelings. I only hope that UWE is as thick-skinned. I don't want to see a bunch of bright folks lose their lunch money by putting out a brilliant game that is incomprehensible to all but the most patient and/or obsessive. I don't think that they're in danger of putting out a game that is too stupid (almost all console FPS, DoA series, etc.), but they are somewhat in danger of putting out one that is too smart.
I stand by my initial assertion: the "hardcore" audience will take any predetermined advantage they can get. There is nothing inherently wrong with this IMO, but it does drive away new audiences. Games like Starcraft, American football, and D&D have complex rules, but they also have the cultural footprint that NS does not and likely will never have. Fact of life.
The first 15-30 minutes of a new player's first NS game need to be fun, or there's a significant risk that that person will leave with a very negative impression of NS instead of telling all their friends that they have to get this game *right now*.
While in general a good idea, I'm very wary about thinking they are a fix-all.
See NeoTokyo where they relied on little screens at the beginning of every round to help explain the nuances of the game (of which there were many). This, while helpful as you kept playing, only worked once you read about 10 of them. There seemed to be a very odd sense of "dangit, I just died! oh, here's the stupid prompt that explains how I died" syndrome.
So, yes, I wholeheartedly support using loading-screen/death cam hints/prompts. However, they are only a partial solution, not the silver bullet.