<!--quoteo(post=1820150:date=Dec 30 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Dec 30 2010, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Singleplayer campaign of some sort is and always will be the best way to introduce a gamer to your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
<!--quoteo(post=1820150:date=Dec 29 2010, 07:23 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Dec 29 2010, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Singleplayer campaign of some sort is and always will be the best way to introduce a gamer to your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, we live in a world of limited resources and this is presumably not happening. Left 4 Dead does a fine job of explaining a pretty complex world without a single-player game (those bots are inept, they don't count).... so what lessons can be taken from that game and similar games?
Again, the limited resources argument. If you have limited resources, don't take on ambitious undertakings. Enough said. With this 'open' beta access model (where people can still play the beta if they've pre-ordered, without restriction), there is, in fact, no reason to rush into 1.0. Get <u>everything</u> done, and <b>then</b> let it loose on the world proper. If that means a 2012 'official release' then so be it - those who want to play during 2011 still can. Besides, the community could contribute towards this - and may in fact be better placed to advise on the construction of an SP (tutorial) campaign. I might make a thread to brainstorm this.
How is Left4Dead complex? It's less complex than Minecraft.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, the limited resources argument. If you have limited resources, don't take on ambitious undertakings. Enough said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to throw innovation, ingenuity, and creativity down the drain. Indie game development in general is a risky and ambitious undertaking, yet we're often graced with some fantastic games through it. Minecraft is essentially created by one man, Notch, and it's currently had 500,000 downloads. And every game ever created has been done so under "limited resources", otherwise why make it? The company needs to make a profit from the game after all, hence a budget.
You need to prioritize when developing a game with limited staff, an incredibly low budget, and big dreams. It's not impossible. They need to be very creative in working around problems they can't overcome with brute force and incredibly innovative when it comes to design/gameplay issues they can't incorporate due to a lack of time or money. Left 4 Dead is a good example as there's no single-player of any kind yet it's easy enough for anybody to learn. Sure, it's not the most complex game, but the METHOD is what's important. Natural Selection 2 could easily have a simple and effective way for the player to learn the game WITHOUT a full fledged singleplayer (or a singelplayer of any kind) <i>and</i> without it being a hindrance on development or their budget.
Well, I strongly doubt they have time right now to setup a SP run before release. So, hop to it community.
On a side note, L4D's main strength is the combination of pop-ups, smart highlighting, yelling in-game, and intuitive visuals. Unfortunately, that won't teach you optimal placement of IPs to minimize Skulks running from one to the other. =p
<!--quoteo(post=1819704:date=Dec 27 2010, 06:09 PM:name=1mannARMEE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1mannARMEE @ Dec 27 2010, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] and I guess especially in a FPS game people would always skip the tutorial for the instant action.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe they want to watch it later, when they start to wonder why they can't have a grenade launcher from the beginning (was about to write GL and changed my mind, since clear language adds to newB-friendliness) :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] But, the commander mode seems to be the problem and should be adressed in some way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1819824:date=Dec 28 2010, 06:17 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 28 2010, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that for most people who actually need the tutorial, they do the same: they never use it, and then it leaves them with a bad taste after not understanding what the hell is going on and getting absolutely owned.
Most people, myself included, are of the opinion that we shouldn't need to do a tutorial just to play a game. We're not learning a trade, here. We're here to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. People should not be "forced" to play a tutorial BUT: any tutorial should be easily accessible. Imo some kind of link to an integrated tutorial would be nice (NOT to a web page). I played NS2 for the first time the other day. While i was trying to alien-COMM, i had my very own nooB experience. If there would have been a tutorial "inside" NS2 i would have watched it as soon as the round ended. Multiple alien COMMs? wtf? *needs to learn about...*
<!--quoteo(post=1819789:date=Dec 28 2010, 03:28 AM:name=Ziji)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ziji @ Dec 28 2010, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mind it, but I often find myself going to aim and end up meleeing thin air instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
beta...
<!--quoteo(post=1819760:date=Dec 28 2010, 12:34 AM:name=ktimekiller)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktimekiller @ Dec 28 2010, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I can gather from this 7 page long ###### and whine fest is the following [...]
- Game should be more like CoD #968<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please stick to the netiquette! Use *sarcasm* where necessary!
<!--quoteo(post=1820354:date=Dec 31 2010, 06:30 AM:name=doeseph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (doeseph @ Dec 31 2010, 06:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Way to throw innovation, ingenuity, and creativity down the drain. Indie game development in general is a risky and ambitious undertaking, yet we're often graced with some fantastic games through it. Minecraft is essentially created by one man, Notch, and it's currently had 500,000 downloads. And every game ever created has been done so under "limited resources", otherwise why make it? The company needs to make a profit from the game after all, hence a budget.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is Minecraft, and many small indie titles ambitious? How is innovation, ingenuity and creativity necessarily ambitious? Ambitious indie titles would be Natural Selection 2, Overgrowth, Zeno Clash. Minecraft isn't ambitious, just successful. Hell, most of the better additions to the game come from the minecraft mod community. Ambition in the sense of 'ambitious undertaking' is dependent upon the sheer scale, not the innovation. So don't give me that trash of an argument.
Also, in terms of game complexity: Left4Dead < Minecraft <<<<<<<< Natural Selection
<!--quoteo(post=1820230:date=Dec 30 2010, 07:33 AM:name=noisywalrus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noisywalrus @ Dec 30 2010, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately, we live in a world of limited resources and this is presumably not happening. Left 4 Dead does a fine job of explaining a pretty complex world without a single-player game (those bots are inept, they don't count).... so what lessons can be taken from that game and similar games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Left4Dead was pretty simple. Run to the end and kill zombies.
<!--quoteo(post=1820383:date=Dec 31 2010, 08:12 AM:name=DerAndere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DerAndere @ Dec 31 2010, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right. People should not be "forced" to play a tutorial BUT: any tutorial should be easily accessible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, because a tutorial would only be used by 1% of the population (1 in 100, and that's an optimistic guess). A single player campaign would be played by the majority. If you consider it based on a "what do you get, based on what you put in?" basis, the singleplayer campaign is obviously far more reasonable.
<!--quoteo(post=1820449:date=Dec 31 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Dec 31 2010, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Left4Dead was pretty simple. Run to the end and kill zombies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. Not to say it isn't fun - it is. But in terms of game complexity, it has none.
<!--quoteo(post=1820450:date=Dec 30 2010, 09:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 30 2010, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to say it isn't fun - it is. But in terms of game complexity, it has none.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it is to some people. I mean if you've ever played L4D you know that the concept of "staying together cause you'll get killed if you don't" is hard to convey to some. :p
That's not a complex problem, really, those are just stupid people (including people who shoot other people in the back of the head). It's co-op for a reason.
Comments
+1
Unfortunately, we live in a world of limited resources and this is presumably not happening. Left 4 Dead does a fine job of explaining a pretty complex world without a single-player game (those bots are inept, they don't count).... so what lessons can be taken from that game and similar games?
With this 'open' beta access model (where people can still play the beta if they've pre-ordered, without restriction), there is, in fact, no reason to rush into 1.0. Get <u>everything</u> done, and <b>then</b> let it loose on the world proper. If that means a 2012 'official release' then so be it - those who want to play during 2011 still can.
Besides, the community could contribute towards this - and may in fact be better placed to advise on the construction of an SP (tutorial) campaign. I might make a thread to brainstorm this.
How is Left4Dead complex? It's less complex than Minecraft.
Way to throw innovation, ingenuity, and creativity down the drain. Indie game development in general is a risky and ambitious undertaking, yet we're often graced with some fantastic games through it. Minecraft is essentially created by one man, Notch, and it's currently had 500,000 downloads. And every game ever created has been done so under "limited resources", otherwise why make it? The company needs to make a profit from the game after all, hence a budget.
You need to prioritize when developing a game with limited staff, an incredibly low budget, and big dreams. It's not impossible. They need to be very creative in working around problems they can't overcome with brute force and incredibly innovative when it comes to design/gameplay issues they can't incorporate due to a lack of time or money. Left 4 Dead is a good example as there's no single-player of any kind yet it's easy enough for anybody to learn. Sure, it's not the most complex game, but the METHOD is what's important. Natural Selection 2 could easily have a simple and effective way for the player to learn the game WITHOUT a full fledged singleplayer (or a singelplayer of any kind) <i>and</i> without it being a hindrance on development or their budget.
On a side note, L4D's main strength is the combination of pop-ups, smart highlighting, yelling in-game, and intuitive visuals. Unfortunately, that won't teach you optimal placement of IPs to minimize Skulks running from one to the other. =p
Maybe they want to watch it later, when they start to wonder why they can't have a grenade launcher from the beginning (was about to write GL and changed my mind, since clear language adds to newB-friendliness) :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] But, the commander mode seems to be the problem and should be adressed in some way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1819824:date=Dec 28 2010, 06:17 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 28 2010, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that for most people who actually need the tutorial, they do the same: they never use it, and then it leaves them with a bad taste after not understanding what the hell is going on and getting absolutely owned.
Most people, myself included, are of the opinion that we shouldn't need to do a tutorial just to play a game. We're not learning a trade, here. We're here to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. People should not be "forced" to play a tutorial BUT: any tutorial should be easily accessible. Imo some kind of link to an integrated tutorial would be nice (NOT to a web page). I played NS2 for the first time the other day. While i was trying to alien-COMM, i had my very own nooB experience. If there would have been a tutorial "inside" NS2 i would have watched it as soon as the round ended. Multiple alien COMMs? wtf? *needs to learn about...*
<!--quoteo(post=1819789:date=Dec 28 2010, 03:28 AM:name=Ziji)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ziji @ Dec 28 2010, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mind it, but I often find myself going to aim and end up meleeing thin air instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
beta...
<!--quoteo(post=1819760:date=Dec 28 2010, 12:34 AM:name=ktimekiller)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktimekiller @ Dec 28 2010, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I can gather from this 7 page long ###### and whine fest is the following
[...]
- Game should be more like CoD #968<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please stick to the netiquette! Use *sarcasm* where necessary!
How is Minecraft, and many small indie titles ambitious? How is innovation, ingenuity and creativity necessarily ambitious? Ambitious indie titles would be Natural Selection 2, Overgrowth, Zeno Clash. Minecraft isn't ambitious, just successful. Hell, most of the better additions to the game come from the minecraft mod community. Ambition in the sense of 'ambitious undertaking' is dependent upon the sheer scale, not the innovation. So don't give me that trash of an argument.
Also, in terms of game complexity:
Left4Dead < Minecraft <<<<<<<< Natural Selection
Left4Dead was pretty simple. Run to the end and kill zombies.
No, because a tutorial would only be used by 1% of the population (1 in 100, and that's an optimistic guess). A single player campaign would be played by the majority. If you consider it based on a "what do you get, based on what you put in?" basis, the singleplayer campaign is obviously far more reasonable.
<!--quoteo(post=1820449:date=Dec 31 2010, 01:47 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Dec 31 2010, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Left4Dead was pretty simple. Run to the end and kill zombies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Not to say it isn't fun - it is. But in terms of game complexity, it has none.
Well it is to some people. I mean if you've ever played L4D you know that the concept of "staying together cause you'll get killed if you don't" is hard to convey to some. :p