I can't play FPS games competitively. I'm massively "underskilled" in that field (because I don't devout my life to playing FPSes). I enjoy NS2 because it has that teamwork aspect, I don't necessarily have to be good a shooting, I can provide assistance in other ways such as support (gorge) or playing Commander.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
I don't think that NS2's learning curve will be as steep as in NS1. Mostly due to better tooltips and what else v1.0 is going to include. It would indeed be harder to learn than most other shooter games out there, but easier than the previous mod. But I don't think combat belongs in vanilla NS2. It could make people think that that's the "real" game. And that could hurt the vanilla game. Let this stay as a modification. People want to practice on a dumbed down version of the game? Play the mod.
I have to be impressed with the fact that an actual game mode is completed. Congratulations. Seriously. Don't let any of the haters get you down...its impressive.
But now I have to explain why Combat rubbed alot of people the wrong way. Combat was not like CTF or Domination or Jailbreak where the basic rules of the game were the same but the goals were different.
Combat was an entirely different game. Nothing you learned in Combat applied to NS Likewise nothing you learned in NS applied in Combat.
Playing on a server that swapped between them was headachy ...so the servers drifted apart. and people yelled "Combat is funner" and "NS is deeper" and other such silly things while the truth was they both had their strengths and weaknesses but were different games.
"The history of Combat and NS as I remember it" by Kingmob
My true hope was that Combat concepts would be revisited by UW with different creatures and art style so it could become a separate IP driven by different goals and wants.
these lazy ppl around and newcomers - they will ruin all the fun, I have only one playable server around, and if it will be CM, I ll ask for refund :-)))
Combat mode didn't kill NS and one the reasons NS is still alive is the combat mode. You might want to ask what kind in person stops playing a game only because they add another game mode for it? Stupid one I would say. Combat didn't take anything away from classic mode, quite contrary, it added more tactical depth to the game. Combat lerking or shotgun pressure are only few of many tactical elements that combat mode made possible. So please wanna-be-veterans, learn basics from the game before you start to criticize it.
That's quite correct. The only potential argument against combat-mode as it existed in NS1 would be that classic servers were bothered by folks coming from combat and being generally clueless and rambo-like as a result.
While a minor nuisance, It doesn't hold enough water to argue against combat really.
<!--quoteo(post=1885152:date=Nov 16 2011, 10:52 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Nov 16 2011, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat mode didn't kill NS and one the reasons NS is still alive is the combat mode. You might want to ask what kind in person stops playing a game only because they add another game mode for it? Stupid one I would say. Combat didn't take anything away from classic mode, quite contrary, it added more tactical depth to the game. Combat lerking or shotgun pressure are only few of many tactical elements that combat mode made possible. So please wanna-be-veterans, learn basics from the game before you start to criticize it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1885167:date=Nov 16 2011, 11:57 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Nov 16 2011, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's quite correct. The only potential argument against combat-mode as it existed in NS1 would be that classic servers were bothered by folks coming from combat and being generally clueless and rambo-like as a result.
While a minor nuisance, It doesn't hold enough water to argue against combat really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tane really? I remember you from NS1 and I have played against you within the last year. Yes you are a good player, yes you are good at other games, and yes you have a skill at FPS games most would kill for... BUT that doesnt give your opinion anymore merit than mine or others. Calling us wanna-be-veterans only shows a pompous attitude and doesnt help your argument. I thought i liked you as a person and player. I guess i can just appreciate your skill and ignore your opinions if you dismiss other solely based on in game accomplishments.
As for arguments holding water, bottom line is you cant play combat mode and NS mode at the same time. One is going to be chosen over the other. The instant gratification one usually wins out.
Combat was easy for new comers but didnt encourage growth as a NS map player. So new players would jump to CO maps to learn but never leave because CO was so much different than NS. CO is a water downed version of NS that allows the player to rely solely on themselves. If CO was grand as you two suggest why wasnt there a competitive branch?
What we should be focusing on is allowing new player an ease of use in NS maps and not confusing game types AT THE BEGINNING. In 6 or 12 months then add CO mode. I would rather have a server full of noobs in NS maps trying hard to learn then a server with a player count that cant hardly support NS, the other half playing CO on some CO 24/7 server praying they will make the leap to NS team play some day.
Hmm.. come to think of it, CO really was ahead of it's time. Still is in a way, since on top of the usual being a chaotic fragfest with little thought except for what upgrade you want next, it also had asymmetrical sides and a definite end condition to work towards (without having to change the map after its finished, no less). So it was like modern FPS multiplayer except better. How about that.
It doesnt matter if there is a combat mode or not - the only way to improve overall gameplay is to show them how its done. (and i dont mean basic tutorials)
Requires a good community where ppl want to educate others exchange tactics tips and tricks. Look at sc2, dota, lol etc - lots of streams and youtube videos that show how its played competitive, they explain why what when etc. you could really feel how ppl got better - at least a lot ppl get the basics faster(but also in the advanced/pro side you could see impact) - so you can have more enjoyable games, even with newer players.
I would love to have combat in ns2 soon - its a lot fun, and not as demanding... sometimes you just want to relax - run around and shoot stuff and dont care too much about tactics and communication, practice some weapons, aim etc...
Better let ppl play such a game mode if they feel like mindless shooting than force them to play another game, or go rambo in classic ns2 without listening to your team/care.
I think there's some danger in giving people a very accessible play mode that helps creating a mindset that doesn't work in actual NS2 'classic'. It's often a lot more frustrating (and maybe even difficult) to readjust a mindset than it is to learn a completely new one.
For example my friend still struggled (and still struggles) to play SC2 zerg because his mindset is calibrated for Brood War zerg. It's something that certainly can be overcome with some practise, but it's not good for the learning curve nevertheless.
Whether all this is something that can be avoided and whether the combat actually provides more accessibility or inaccessibility for NS2 are both interesting thingys.
You can only add a "faster game mode" when NS2 starts to drop off. Otherwise people will play your quicker game mode and never play your strategical game mode.
If SC2 had a "quicker" game mode where you started with all units, just built up and got more powerful, in a RTS like combat.. you'd find the SC2 community would probably not play the main game as much.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1885205:date=Nov 16 2011, 06:05 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 16 2011, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uwe should officially add combat as a gamemode and give it a trailer to appeal to the instant action public.
It may not be not be ns classic, but people do buy games specifically for alternate gamemodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And people also buy games because of their mods. Let this stay as a mod so new players can learn the real game first, and then explore all the fun mods, like this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this mod in any way, and I will most likely play it at some points. But I wouldn't want it to be part of the official game, that way we would risk losing new players for the real game mode. Simply because this other game mode is easier to learn, and that would be more encouraging for a newbie to play. I would rather have vanilla NS2 to be a bit more newbie friendly on the subject of tooltips and what not, and I'm sure we will see improvements on that later on. Maybe like the tutorial Savage 2 made, which was basicly just a voice(Charlie?) telling you what all this stuff was, and what it does, what it is a good counter to, game tips and so on. Which was being played while you actually played the game. Also having the same servers running both modes at the same time is not really newbie friendly. Just more confusing, and annoying for people who don't want to play one of the game modes.
Comments
Mostly due to better tooltips and what else v1.0 is going to include.
It would indeed be harder to learn than most other shooter games out there, but easier than the previous mod.
But I don't think combat belongs in vanilla NS2. It could make people think that that's the "real" game.
And that could hurt the vanilla game. Let this stay as a modification.
People want to practice on a dumbed down version of the game? Play the mod.
Congratulations.
Seriously. Don't let any of the haters get you down...its impressive.
But now I have to explain why Combat rubbed alot of people the wrong way.
Combat was not like CTF or Domination or Jailbreak where the basic rules of the game were the same but the goals were different.
Combat was an entirely different game.
Nothing you learned in Combat applied to NS
Likewise nothing you learned in NS applied in Combat.
Playing on a server that swapped between them was headachy ...so the servers drifted apart.
and people yelled "Combat is funner" and "NS is deeper" and other such silly things
while the truth was they both had their strengths and weaknesses but were different games.
"The history of Combat and NS as I remember it" by Kingmob
My true hope was that Combat concepts would be revisited by UW with different creatures and art style so it could
become a separate IP driven by different goals and wants.
these lazy ppl around and newcomers - they will ruin all the fun, I have only one playable server around, and if it will be CM, I ll ask for refund :-)))
Combat didn't take anything away from classic mode, quite contrary, it added more tactical depth to the game. Combat lerking or shotgun pressure are only few of many tactical elements that combat mode made possible. So please wanna-be-veterans, learn basics from the game before you start to criticize it.
While a minor nuisance, It doesn't hold enough water to argue against combat really.
Combat didn't take anything away from classic mode, quite contrary, it added more tactical depth to the game. Combat lerking or shotgun pressure are only few of many tactical elements that combat mode made possible. So please wanna-be-veterans, learn basics from the game before you start to criticize it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1885167:date=Nov 16 2011, 11:57 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Nov 16 2011, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's quite correct. The only potential argument against combat-mode as it existed in NS1 would be that classic servers were bothered by folks coming from combat and being generally clueless and rambo-like as a result.
While a minor nuisance, It doesn't hold enough water to argue against combat really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tane really? I remember you from NS1 and I have played against you within the last year. Yes you are a good player, yes you are good at other games, and yes you have a skill at FPS games most would kill for... BUT that doesnt give your opinion anymore merit than mine or others. Calling us wanna-be-veterans only shows a pompous attitude and doesnt help your argument. I thought i liked you as a person and player. I guess i can just appreciate your skill and ignore your opinions if you dismiss other solely based on in game accomplishments.
As for arguments holding water, bottom line is you cant play combat mode and NS mode at the same time. One is going to be chosen over the other. The instant gratification one usually wins out.
Combat was easy for new comers but didnt encourage growth as a NS map player. So new players would jump to CO maps to learn but never leave because CO was so much different than NS. CO is a water downed version of NS that allows the player to rely solely on themselves. If CO was grand as you two suggest why wasnt there a competitive branch?
What we should be focusing on is allowing new player an ease of use in NS maps and not confusing game types AT THE BEGINNING. In 6 or 12 months then add CO mode. I would rather have a server full of noobs in NS maps trying hard to learn then a server with a player count that cant hardly support NS, the other half playing CO on some CO 24/7 server praying they will make the leap to NS team play some day.
So it was like modern FPS multiplayer except better. How about that.
Eh? Eh?!?
...Well, maybe not.
Requires a good community where ppl want to educate others exchange tactics tips and tricks.
Look at sc2, dota, lol etc - lots of streams and youtube videos that show how its played competitive, they explain why what when etc. you could really feel how ppl got better - at least a lot ppl get the basics faster(but also in the advanced/pro side you could see impact) - so you can have more enjoyable games, even with newer players.
I would love to have combat in ns2 soon - its a lot fun, and not as demanding... sometimes you just want to relax - run around and shoot stuff and dont care too much about tactics and communication, practice some weapons, aim etc...
Better let ppl play such a game mode if they feel like mindless shooting than force them to play another game, or go rambo in classic ns2 without listening to your team/care.
It may not be not be ns classic, but people do buy games specifically for alternate gamemodes.
For example my friend still struggled (and still struggles) to play SC2 zerg because his mindset is calibrated for Brood War zerg. It's something that certainly can be overcome with some practise, but it's not good for the learning curve nevertheless.
Whether all this is something that can be avoided and whether the combat actually provides more accessibility or inaccessibility for NS2 are both interesting thingys.
If SC2 had a "quicker" game mode where you started with all units, just built up and got more powerful, in a RTS like combat.. you'd find the SC2 community would probably not play the main game as much.
I know it!
It may not be not be ns classic, but people do buy games specifically for alternate gamemodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And people also buy games because of their mods.
Let this stay as a mod so new players can learn the real game first, and then explore all the fun mods, like this one.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this mod in any way, and I will most likely play it at some points.
But I wouldn't want it to be part of the official game, that way we would risk losing new players for the real game mode.
Simply because this other game mode is easier to learn, and that would be more encouraging for a newbie to play.
I would rather have vanilla NS2 to be a bit more newbie friendly on the subject of tooltips and what not, and I'm sure we will see improvements on that later on.
Maybe like the tutorial Savage 2 made, which was basicly just a voice(Charlie?) telling you what all this stuff was, and what it does, what it is a good counter to, game tips and so on. Which was being played while you actually played the game.
Also having the same servers running both modes at the same time is not really newbie friendly. Just more confusing, and annoying for people who don't want to play one of the game modes.