twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
I'm quite surprised that there hasn't been a lot of discussion on this yet: When the Kharaa are down to one Hive, they lose vital previously acquired abilities, Bile bomb and Leap. By that stage of the game, Marines tend to lock down Hive locations with Sentries and the Kharaa team suffers a slow death almost most of the time. On the other hand, if the Marine team is trapped on one base, they do not lose the ability to push back with Grenade Launcher, Flamethrowers and ARCs.
I'm not advocating symmetry, where the marines lose the ability to purchase advanced weapons, if they lose their Advanced Armory. But without Fades, aliens really need Bile bomb and Leap permanently unlocked to fight against Marine mechanized defense and armies, or it easily becomes a slippery slide downhill.
<!--quoteo(post=1865654:date=Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you really have to make skulks even weaker? They already die ridiculously easy and with the removal of leap, they have almost no skill based movement options for getting close to marines, jumping only makes them easier to hit and they are not fast enough to be a serious threat, the only way you can lose to a skulk is if it drops out of the ceiling onto your head, and to be perfectly honest, with it taking 3 or so bites to kill you, that's more than enough time to blast it with a shotgun.
I wish you'd stop trying to balance skulks vs rifles because you very rarely see skulks vs rifles, you mostly end up fighting shotguns and later everything else, skulks are already the most useless class, they don't need nerfing further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Chris on this. Any Marine (except the Axe) rip Skulks apart incredibly fast, including the Rifle. If the Marine is good with his aim, he even has a good chance of killing the Skulk even if it manages to get close (hello rifle butt!). The main advantage Skulks has right now is that poor hit reg and unstable server tick rate make tracking Skulks difficult.
<!--quoteo(post=1865654:date=Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah the main problem at the moment balance wise is probably fades being able to one shot marines if they don't rush armor upgrades, and even then being able to do a lot of damage to them very quickly.
They die easily enough but they can kill things far faster than marines can kill them.
The biggest change was that weapon upgrades now affect fade swipe, which i don't think they did before, certainly they do far more damage per swipe than they did before, that's your problem. Skulsk got nerfed at hive one, and at hive two they're as useless as they ever were.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the Fade's Stab attack is suppose to deal "massive damage" and kill Marines with one hit, as long as Marines do not have an advantage in armour upgrade (over alien attack upgrade).
Alien melee (attack) upgrade current isn't affecting any of Fade's attacks (build 183), this should be fixed in the next build.
There seem to be a lot of balance shifting changes coming next patch. Shade and Beacon could be potentially game changing!
<!--quoteo(post=1865667:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:05 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Aug 2 2011, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien melee (attack) upgrade current isn't affecting any of Fade's attacks (build 183), this should be fixed in the next build.
There seem to be a lot of balance shifting changes coming next patch. Shade and Beacon could be potentially game changing!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sure? I quite often see instances where fades just run through groups of marines one shotting every one of them with regular swipe, I assumed this was because they don't have armor upgrades or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1865661:date=Aug 2 2011, 09:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You must be fighting remarkably bad marines then given that the basic marine weapon is better than your melee weapon in every respect, and they have more health than you do.
Shotguns one shot skulks at melee range, and pistols can three shot them at the start of the game.
Skulks just aren't worth having, the only thing they're good for is destroying power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you play the Skulk wrong! It is one of the most powerful Aliens if you use Leap and all 3 Dimensions!
Edit: The last thing i read was:
Gameplay task Upgrades not affecting non-normal damage types (easy) has appeared with status Started
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1865669:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:08 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You sure? I quite often see instances where fades just run through groups of marines one shotting every one of them, I assumed this was because they don't have armor upgrades or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Positive. I was quite puzzled about why Fades could no longer 2-Swipe or 1-Stab kill Marines when both teams have full upgrades, even though they mathematically should. I tested it myself and with other players, and before long, found that Fade's damage never changes against Marines or structures.
As for the Skulk changes, it's worrying that 3 Pistol bullets (that take a little as 0.2 seconds) can kill a Skulk from such long range.
<!--quoteo(post=1865661:date=Aug 2 2011, 06:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You must be fighting remarkably bad marines then given that the basic marine weapon is better than your melee weapon in every respect, and they have more health than you do.
Shotguns one shot skulks at melee range, and pistols can three shot them at the start of the game.
Skulks just aren't worth having, the only thing they're good for is destroying power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but if shotguns already one shot skulks, whats the difference with a little armour nerf? I do agree the pistol is going to be quite powerful now though although it will be 4 shots now not 3 :p.
Its interesting that over a few builds with only a shotgun nerf, lerk nerf, leap removal + 7 speed skulks, and the cyst mechanic change that the 'balance' of wins shifted as it did to aliens. I really feel the cyst mechanic change allowing aliens to get 3 extractors quickly for relatively quicker economy/upgrades/hive is the main culprit, not so much the skulk vs lmg balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1865670:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:10 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Aug 2 2011, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you play the Skulk wrong! It is one of the most powerful Aliens if you use Leap and all 3 Dimensions!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it's arguably second most powerful simply because there are only four aliens and lerks became horribly easy to kill for their price in the last patch, but it is not by any stretch of the imagination a good class.
It doesn't matter how well you play it, marines with shotguns or higher (i.e every marine you're likely to encounter) are just better, in every possible way. Skulks take multiple hits to kill a marine, marines only take one hit to kill a skulk, skulks are melee only, shotgun marines are ranged and melee, skulks have the lowest health of any entity in the game except possibly a hydra, far less than even a starting marine. Skulks do less damage than most marine weapons against buildings. Skulks in groups get in each other's way and take extra damage from stray shotgun pellets/flames/grenade blasts while marines in groups simply gain the ability to pour more firepower on their enemies.
Skulks are crap. If you can do well as a skulk you can do infinitely better as a fade or lerk, or as a marine. Being able to do well as a skulk does not mean skulks are good, it means you're playing against terrible opponents, I can kill half a dozen skulks with a rifle and pistol, it doesn't mean the rifle and pistol are amazing weapons, it means the people I'm playing against are below average at the game.
In a world where performance was perfect, your statement could be true chris.
Player with medium/bad performance will have it hard as marine(especially shotgun is hard to hit with, stutter, fps drops, "warping" movement), easier against marines with equally bad performance and hard against marines with good performance.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
seriously, learn to play skulk and we talk again. Don't run towards them in a hallway. Get them from behind, above, whatever, but make it so that they can't shoot you from 100m away.
but if you consistently do good with a weapon/lifeform then maybe it's good. when I play as a fade I usually have quite a easy time running back and forth, taking out marines. just like the shotgun will carve through skulks in the hands of a good aimer, and the skulk can take out a lone marine or two without much effort if you come undetected.
some weapons / lifeforms are generally easier to use, but all of them are good if you know what to do. (I haven't played the lerk much lately, so I can't comment on him)
<!--quoteo(post=1865672:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:16 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 2 2011, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but if shotguns already one shot skulks, whats the difference with a little armour nerf? I do agree the pistol is going to be quite powerful now though although it will be 4 shots now not 3 :p.
Its interesting that over a few builds with only a shotgun nerf, lerk nerf, leap removal + 7 speed skulks, and the cyst mechanic change that the 'balance' of wins shifted as it did to aliens. I really feel the cyst mechanic change allowing aliens to get 3 extractors quickly for relatively quicker economy/upgrades/hive is the main culprit, not so much the skulk vs lmg balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't realise it had shifted to aliens, it's always been massively in favour of aliens as far as I was aware.
Early in the game the performance was terrible so marines couldn't hit anything, as well as the bad hitreg.
About the time that was fixed they put the fade in, which started as a massive tank that was unkillable by anything the marines had, so they made shotguns incrediby easy to get, which didn't help the fade problem but did make skulks entirely worthless.
Then they made the fades even more OP by giving them god mode blink, and eventually nerfed them back down a bit by cutting their health. Then however they got super swipe claws so they're back up to being kind of overpowered.
The cyst mechanic just about managed to offset massive alien dominance when it was completely broken at first, but now they're harder to wipe out so that's less of an issue, and they do allow you to spread out much faster so in some ways they're more powerful, although it does make alien commanding a lot less fun as well as sort of ruining the whole steadily advancing infestation thing the old version had going, now it's more like spontaneously infesting half the map very sporadically.
Then lerks got nerfed into being a more or less melee class, not initially too terrible as they still killed things about as fast due to doing more damage close up anyway, although this does sort of kill their one unique aspect which was that they're a ranged class on an otherwise melee team, and now they die very quickly due to the fixed hitboxes, I'm assuming they'll get a health buff or something to compensate.
The marines gained arcs and phase gates but lost massive res supplies and the replicate ability, so they didn't really get any buffs while aliens got lots of new capabilities and lost a few comparatively minor functions.
Basically the balance has been wobbling backwards and forwards between horribly in favour of aliens and slightly in favour of aliens since the alpha came out. It's not really anything new.
<!--quoteo(post=1865675:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:25 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Aug 2 2011, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->seriously, learn to play skulk and we talk again. Don't run towards them in a hallway. Get them from behind, above, whatever, but make it so that they can't shoot you from 100m away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks do that to me a lot, I shoot them from 1m away which is generally more effective. A skulk at the other end of a hall is useless, it's just going to duck out of the way if I shoot at it, a skulk right next to me is an easy target.
The worst that happens is maybe you lose one marine to a skulk, then the rest of the group turns round and shoots it, if there's two skulks, the first one blows the cover for the other one with the kill and the marines shoot them both.
I agree in that, but I am sure a Skulk with Leap and knows how to use it ( leap wall leap) and not just in the Marines face, can be a really hard opponent!
Sure it is easy to kill a Skulk that walks/leaps to you and 70% just do that. But there are also Skulks they Leaped somwhere and you can't see them till tgey get the first bite but suddenly there is no more Skulk. And you wait and search him but nothing is there till you hear the Leapsound and you are dead. But I also have to say that the wallwalking oft the Skulk is terrible sometimes (f.e. Vents).
And it is hard now to say Skulk or whatever ( doesn't count for Lerk) because we have only 2 Maps ( and only 1 is playerd). If you take a look at Triad the things look much better for Skulks ( if you put r_shadowsfade 0) and even for Lerks. If you take a look at Triad
<!--quoteo(post=1865674:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:24 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Aug 2 2011, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a world where performance was perfect, your statement could be true chris.
Player with medium/bad performance will have it hard as marine(especially shotgun is hard to hit with, stutter, fps drops, "warping" movement), easier against marines with equally bad performance and hard against marines with good performance.
fast melee > range with bad fps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the shotgun isn't a ranged weapon, it's a melee weapon that you can also use at range, but it's best at melee range.
So what you're actually doing is putting a very weak, limited damage alien, in a melee fight against a tougher marine armed with a one shot melee weapon.
All this means is that the skulk has to get close to the marine, and probably give himself away in the process if only due to the fact that they make noise when they move, and even if he kills the marine all the marine's buddies will shoot the skulk, so you can never average more than a 1-1 ratio against a group of marines.
And still i sometimes get groups of 3marines(1-2 shotgun) as a solo skulk...
hit 1-2 with parasite, leap in bite dodge bite mix... win. (especially with feast)
Ofc the other times i leap directly into a shotgun and die instantly... :P
PS: the more marines and the smaller the room, the funnier it gets if you manage to not jump straight into a marine looking at you. (since they all block eachother movement and shots)
edit: or other little tactics, in a group of 2 - your buddy jumps next to the marines and hide somewhere => distract them, now you jump in and start the bite fest => buddy jumps in too... most of the time you will get the whole group(no matter which weapons) - maybe one of you dies too (but you are a cheap skulk, who cares)
Add in a little parasiting before, feast and swarm for easier bite fests.
edit2: skulks are the only ones that need a little teamplay on the alien side and stay effective the whole game. (i bet even with exos they can be usefull with good timing (lockdown mode, reload)
edit3: another little tactic is to jump around in front of marines(not too close, and not so that you really take a lot burst shots) wasting some bullets - if he starts to reload -> jump at him.
<!--quoteo(post=1865679:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:35 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Aug 2 2011, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree in that, but I am sure a Skulk with Leap and knows how to use it ( leap wall leap) and not just in the Marines face, can be a really hard opponent!
Sure it is easy to kill a Skulk that walks/leaps to you and 70% just do that. But there are also Skulks they Leaped somwhere and you can't see them till tgey get the first bite but suddenly there is no more Skulk. And you wait and search him but nothing is there till you hear the Leapsound and you are dead. But I also have to say that the wallwalking oft the Skulk is terrible sometimes (f.e. Vents).
And it is hard now to say Skulk or whatever ( doesn't count for Lerk) because we have only 2 Maps ( and only 1 is playerd). If you take a look at Triad the things look much better for Skulks ( if you put r_shadowsfade 0) and even for Lerks. If you take a look at Triad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An extremely good opponent is going to be hard no matter what class they play, take that logic and extend it to lerks, who can literally snipe from the least exposed postions without ever putting themselves at risk, or fades, who have absolute control over their vulnerability.
A skulk is the most limited alien class, there is nothing it can do that other classes cannot do better, a good skulk might be able to use the situation and environment to their advantage to score a couple of kills, a good fade or lerk can do that anywhere, at any time, consistently, with more marines.
Marines also have more options, a marine can avoid places where a skulk might hide, marine squads can and usually do react to each other and cover a lot of the room with their sightlines, this isn't really a problem for lerks and fades as they can stay almost invisible when they attack/teleport to avoid damage altogether, but for a skulk you really have to rely on just not being seen, which is not easy when you have to go on the offensive, any alien class can ambush but fades and lerks can attack directly as well, skulks just can't really.
<!--quoteo(post=1865399:date=Aug 1 2011, 03:51 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 1 2011, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also really believe that the skulk animations are partly to blame. It's really difficult to track them when they are just floating around as they do now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with that. Maybe an internal test build where animations are disabled can verify it?
<!--quoteo(post=1865852:date=Aug 2 2011, 11:32 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Aug 2 2011, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope you can make it so Disorient isn't easily mistaken for lag and warping :P
Shade with Whip should make some interesting chokepoints, although Cloak is triggered so Commander will have to trigger it once in a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is cloak really a triggered ability? That kinda sucks, and those trigger ability buttons are so sticky. I hope the passive camouflage is decent enough to make whips fairly invisible when the power is out.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Respawn rates: Also, many games have marines feeling like they have to build multiple IPs (NS1 must have had this problem too, although I don’t remember it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shouldn't they feel like they have to build multiple IPs?
<!--quoteo(post=1865874:date=Aug 3 2011, 12:30 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Aug 3 2011, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shouldn't they feel like they have to build multiple IPs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a little silly that aliens get all their spawn and command functionality built into the hive, whereas marines have to build multiple structures and more to the point, have to spend more money the more players they have, as well as building multiple IPs simply to overcome how easy they are to camp.
The hive and egg approach is a much more elegant solution to the spawning problem than IPs are, IPs are clunky and a liability, they aren't a fun thing to have in the game really, what they mostly do is take time to build, cost money to replace, and get you spawn killed.
What if it's a disruption ability? You can cast Phantasm in a small area, and enemy players and structures caught in the AoE become ethereal and invulnerable for a few seconds. There should be a movement penalty so Marines can't just sprint past defenses. Note that it's still a point and click ability, not triggered.
Kharaa players can see players affected by Phantasm, ala Blink trailing effects. Phantom Marines will see Blink ethereal blue effects, and they will be invisible to each other as though they are cloaked.
Im actually F**king excited about this phantasm sh*t. Imagine what can be done with it. When a hive is under threat the commander can place a fake onos right next to the door and a little to the side so that they can *just* see it to put fear in the marines, they will hesitate to run right in (assuming they think its real). THATS SO F**KING COOL
<!--quoteo(post=1865678:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:31 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't realise it had shifted to aliens, it's always been massively in favour of aliens as far as I was aware. ... Basically the balance has been wobbling backwards and forwards between horribly in favour of aliens and slightly in favour of aliens since the alpha came out. It's not really anything new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry i didnt type it clearly. To clarify, yes i agree that its always been in the favour of aliens in the nature you describe but its shifted +10-15% towards aliens to a total of 70% as a result of the main gameplay changes i mentioned since build 180 (excluding the silly lerk gas build 181). Sure there was slowdown removal, but i wouldnt have expected this shift towards aliens given leap removal and speed increase by 10%.
<!--quoteo(post=1865945:date=Aug 3 2011, 05:03 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 3 2011, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry i didnt type it clearly. To clarify, yes i agree that its always been in the favour of aliens in the nature you describe but its shifted +10-15% towards aliens to a total of 70% as a result of the main gameplay changes i mentioned since build 180 (excluding the silly lerk gas build 181). Sure there was slowdown removal, but i wouldnt have expected this shift towards aliens given leap removal and speed increase by 10%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speed increase was from six to seven I think, which is a bit more than 10%.
Also most of the changes only really affect skulks, which aren't and for quite a while haven't been a significant part of the game. Lerks got buffed technically as lerk gas is now significantly more effective against late game marines, although their vulnerability has caused them to suffer, fades got sort of buffed as I think shotguns took a nerf which would affect fades significantly.
Basically aliens still have just as much ability as ever to choke marines early-mid game with rapid expansion as a result of the new cyst mechanics and their always powerful hive placement. Marines on the other hand took a hit to their means to combat this with the shotgun nerf and price hike.
Basically skulk nerf only really affects their ability to attack at the very start, which they generally don't do, best way to win is to get a hive (which requires skulks to defend, they can still do that as well as ever) and then rush fades. Which is actually easier due to fades being effectively buffed by shotgun nerfing and alien expansion being buffed due to cysts being much more long ranged than old infestation/LOS cysts.
I just played a game where I went early hive and lost it 2 seconds after it went up about 3 times in a row. The game lasted two hours because I went around and made hydras on walls and ceilings that weren't clumped up and were mostly hidden from view. I decided not to drag it out and experimented with drifters until my team quit.
Aliens are good enough if a few people on the server know how to play gorge and fade. Until that happens, we won't know for sure where marines are weak.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1865966:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:37 PM:name=kaffaljidhma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaffaljidhma @ Aug 2 2011, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just played a game where I went early hive and lost it 2 seconds after it went up about 3 times in a row. The game lasted two hours because I went around and made hydras on walls and ceilings that weren't clumped up and were mostly hidden from view. I decided not to drag it out and experimented with drifters until my team quit.
Aliens are good enough if a few people on the server know how to play gorge and fade. Until that happens, we won't know for sure where marines are weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That shows Hive rushing (Heliport...) can be countered by Marines, and that aliens aren't always as organised as Marines. :P
Our aliens team didn't have enough Gorges bilebombing that game. A mistake a lot of inexperienced Skulks make is charging straight at advancing Marines, when they should be lurking around and protecting the growing Hive.
I would love to plant a fake armory. Imagine a marine running past his territory because he sees an armory at the end of the corridor. When he comes close to it, he realises it's a a whip in disguise.
<!--quoteo(post=1865984:date=Aug 3 2011, 01:11 AM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Aug 3 2011, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to plant a fake armory. Imagine a marine running past his territory because he sees an armory at the end of the corridor. When he comes close to it, he realises it's a a whip in disguise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Finally a way the whip can get a kill! :p
so shade cloak ability is triggered ability? that isn't good. I would prefer shade auto cloak everything its in range of, as sensory chamber has done. (naturally scan reveals it)
<!--quoteo(post=1866205:date=Aug 3 2011, 06:00 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Aug 3 2011, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so shade cloak ability is triggered ability? that isn't good. I would prefer shade auto cloak everything its in range of, as sensory chamber has done. (naturally scan reveals it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well with Camouflage and Sink, it'll be easier for Skulks to hide on home turf should Marines come barging in.
<!--quoteo(post=1865945:date=Aug 3 2011, 06:03 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 3 2011, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry i didnt type it clearly. To clarify, yes i agree that its always been in the favour of aliens in the nature you describe but its shifted +10-15% towards aliens to a total of 70% as a result of the main gameplay changes i mentioned since build 180 (excluding the silly lerk gas build 181). Sure there was slowdown removal, but i wouldnt have expected this shift towards aliens given leap removal and speed increase by 10%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i dont really think the skulk is that much of an issue, imo its more the fade that causes the marines to lose that badly, if it takes 3 people to kill a fade, thats having your other 3 teammates having to deal with 5 other aliens as well as taking map control and commanding and such (in a 6v6).
Comments
By that stage of the game, Marines tend to lock down Hive locations with Sentries and the Kharaa team suffers a slow death almost most of the time. On the other hand, if the Marine team is trapped on one base, they do not lose the ability to push back with Grenade Launcher, Flamethrowers and ARCs.
I'm not advocating symmetry, where the marines lose the ability to purchase advanced weapons, if they lose their Advanced Armory. But without Fades, aliens really need Bile bomb and Leap permanently unlocked to fight against Marine mechanized defense and armies, or it easily becomes a slippery slide downhill.
<!--quoteo(post=1865654:date=Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you really have to make skulks even weaker? They already die ridiculously easy and with the removal of leap, they have almost no skill based movement options for getting close to marines, jumping only makes them easier to hit and they are not fast enough to be a serious threat, the only way you can lose to a skulk is if it drops out of the ceiling onto your head, and to be perfectly honest, with it taking 3 or so bites to kill you, that's more than enough time to blast it with a shotgun.
I wish you'd stop trying to balance skulks vs rifles because you very rarely see skulks vs rifles, you mostly end up fighting shotguns and later everything else, skulks are already the most useless class, they don't need nerfing further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Chris on this. Any Marine (except the Axe) rip Skulks apart incredibly fast, including the Rifle. If the Marine is good with his aim, he even has a good chance of killing the Skulk even if it manages to get close (hello rifle butt!). The main advantage Skulks has right now is that poor hit reg and unstable server tick rate make tracking Skulks difficult.
<!--quoteo(post=1865654:date=Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 2 2011, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah the main problem at the moment balance wise is probably fades being able to one shot marines if they don't rush armor upgrades, and even then being able to do a lot of damage to them very quickly.
They die easily enough but they can kill things far faster than marines can kill them.
The biggest change was that weapon upgrades now affect fade swipe, which i don't think they did before, certainly they do far more damage per swipe than they did before, that's your problem. Skulsk got nerfed at hive one, and at hive two they're as useless as they ever were.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the Fade's Stab attack is suppose to deal "massive damage" and kill Marines with one hit, as long as Marines do not have an advantage in armour upgrade (over alien attack upgrade).
Alien melee (attack) upgrade current isn't affecting any of Fade's attacks (build 183), this should be fixed in the next build.
There seem to be a lot of balance shifting changes coming next patch. Shade and Beacon could be potentially game changing!
There seem to be a lot of balance shifting changes coming next patch. Shade and Beacon could be potentially game changing!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sure? I quite often see instances where fades just run through groups of marines one shotting every one of them with regular swipe, I assumed this was because they don't have armor upgrades or something.
Shotguns one shot skulks at melee range, and pistols can three shot them at the start of the game.
Skulks just aren't worth having, the only thing they're good for is destroying power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you play the Skulk wrong! It is one of the most powerful Aliens if you use Leap and all 3 Dimensions!
Edit:
The last thing i read was:
Gameplay task Upgrades not affecting non-normal damage types (easy) has appeared with status Started
Positive. I was quite puzzled about why Fades could no longer 2-Swipe or 1-Stab kill Marines when both teams have full upgrades, even though they mathematically should. I tested it myself and with other players, and before long, found that Fade's damage never changes against Marines or structures.
As for the Skulk changes, it's worrying that 3 Pistol bullets (that take a little as 0.2 seconds) can kill a Skulk from such long range.
Shotguns one shot skulks at melee range, and pistols can three shot them at the start of the game.
Skulks just aren't worth having, the only thing they're good for is destroying power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but if shotguns already one shot skulks, whats the difference with a little armour nerf? I do agree the pistol is going to be quite powerful now though although it will be 4 shots now not 3 :p.
Its interesting that over a few builds with only a shotgun nerf, lerk nerf, leap removal + 7 speed skulks, and the cyst mechanic change that the 'balance' of wins shifted as it did to aliens. I really feel the cyst mechanic change allowing aliens to get 3 extractors quickly for relatively quicker economy/upgrades/hive is the main culprit, not so much the skulk vs lmg balance.
Well it's arguably second most powerful simply because there are only four aliens and lerks became horribly easy to kill for their price in the last patch, but it is not by any stretch of the imagination a good class.
It doesn't matter how well you play it, marines with shotguns or higher (i.e every marine you're likely to encounter) are just better, in every possible way. Skulks take multiple hits to kill a marine, marines only take one hit to kill a skulk, skulks are melee only, shotgun marines are ranged and melee, skulks have the lowest health of any entity in the game except possibly a hydra, far less than even a starting marine. Skulks do less damage than most marine weapons against buildings. Skulks in groups get in each other's way and take extra damage from stray shotgun pellets/flames/grenade blasts while marines in groups simply gain the ability to pour more firepower on their enemies.
Skulks are crap. If you can do well as a skulk you can do infinitely better as a fade or lerk, or as a marine. Being able to do well as a skulk does not mean skulks are good, it means you're playing against terrible opponents, I can kill half a dozen skulks with a rifle and pistol, it doesn't mean the rifle and pistol are amazing weapons, it means the people I'm playing against are below average at the game.
Player with medium/bad performance will have it hard as marine(especially shotgun is hard to hit with, stutter, fps drops, "warping" movement), easier against marines with equally bad performance and hard against marines with good performance.
fast melee > range with bad fps
when I play as a fade I usually have quite a easy time running back and forth, taking out marines.
just like the shotgun will carve through skulks in the hands of a good aimer,
and the skulk can take out a lone marine or two without much effort if you come undetected.
some weapons / lifeforms are generally easier to use, but all of them are good if you know what to do.
(I haven't played the lerk much lately, so I can't comment on him)
Its interesting that over a few builds with only a shotgun nerf, lerk nerf, leap removal + 7 speed skulks, and the cyst mechanic change that the 'balance' of wins shifted as it did to aliens. I really feel the cyst mechanic change allowing aliens to get 3 extractors quickly for relatively quicker economy/upgrades/hive is the main culprit, not so much the skulk vs lmg balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't realise it had shifted to aliens, it's always been massively in favour of aliens as far as I was aware.
Early in the game the performance was terrible so marines couldn't hit anything, as well as the bad hitreg.
About the time that was fixed they put the fade in, which started as a massive tank that was unkillable by anything the marines had, so they made shotguns incrediby easy to get, which didn't help the fade problem but did make skulks entirely worthless.
Then they made the fades even more OP by giving them god mode blink, and eventually nerfed them back down a bit by cutting their health. Then however they got super swipe claws so they're back up to being kind of overpowered.
The cyst mechanic just about managed to offset massive alien dominance when it was completely broken at first, but now they're harder to wipe out so that's less of an issue, and they do allow you to spread out much faster so in some ways they're more powerful, although it does make alien commanding a lot less fun as well as sort of ruining the whole steadily advancing infestation thing the old version had going, now it's more like spontaneously infesting half the map very sporadically.
Then lerks got nerfed into being a more or less melee class, not initially too terrible as they still killed things about as fast due to doing more damage close up anyway, although this does sort of kill their one unique aspect which was that they're a ranged class on an otherwise melee team, and now they die very quickly due to the fixed hitboxes, I'm assuming they'll get a health buff or something to compensate.
The marines gained arcs and phase gates but lost massive res supplies and the replicate ability, so they didn't really get any buffs while aliens got lots of new capabilities and lost a few comparatively minor functions.
Basically the balance has been wobbling backwards and forwards between horribly in favour of aliens and slightly in favour of aliens since the alpha came out. It's not really anything new.
<!--quoteo(post=1865675:date=Aug 2 2011, 10:25 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Aug 2 2011, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->seriously, learn to play skulk and we talk again. Don't run towards them in a hallway. Get them from behind, above, whatever, but make it so that they can't shoot you from 100m away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks do that to me a lot, I shoot them from 1m away which is generally more effective. A skulk at the other end of a hall is useless, it's just going to duck out of the way if I shoot at it, a skulk right next to me is an easy target.
The worst that happens is maybe you lose one marine to a skulk, then the rest of the group turns round and shoots it, if there's two skulks, the first one blows the cover for the other one with the kill and the marines shoot them both.
Skulks aren't as good as marines.
Sure it is easy to kill a Skulk that walks/leaps to you and 70% just do that.
But there are also Skulks they Leaped somwhere and you can't see them till tgey get the first bite but suddenly there is no more Skulk. And you wait and search him but nothing is there till you hear the Leapsound and you are dead.
But I also have to say that the wallwalking oft the Skulk is terrible sometimes (f.e. Vents).
And it is hard now to say Skulk or whatever ( doesn't count for Lerk) because we have only 2 Maps ( and only 1 is playerd). If you take a look at Triad the things look much better for Skulks ( if you put r_shadowsfade 0) and even for Lerks.
If you take a look at Triad
Player with medium/bad performance will have it hard as marine(especially shotgun is hard to hit with, stutter, fps drops, "warping" movement), easier against marines with equally bad performance and hard against marines with good performance.
fast melee > range with bad fps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the shotgun isn't a ranged weapon, it's a melee weapon that you can also use at range, but it's best at melee range.
So what you're actually doing is putting a very weak, limited damage alien, in a melee fight against a tougher marine armed with a one shot melee weapon.
All this means is that the skulk has to get close to the marine, and probably give himself away in the process if only due to the fact that they make noise when they move, and even if he kills the marine all the marine's buddies will shoot the skulk, so you can never average more than a 1-1 ratio against a group of marines.
The skulk has no advantage against the marine.
hit 1-2 with parasite, leap in bite dodge bite mix... win. (especially with feast)
Ofc the other times i leap directly into a shotgun and die instantly... :P
PS: the more marines and the smaller the room, the funnier it gets if you manage to not jump straight into a marine looking at you. (since they all block eachother movement and shots)
edit: or other little tactics, in a group of 2 - your buddy jumps next to the marines and hide somewhere => distract them, now you jump in and start the bite fest => buddy jumps in too... most of the time you will get the whole group(no matter which weapons) - maybe one of you dies too (but you are a cheap skulk, who cares)
Add in a little parasiting before, feast and swarm for easier bite fests.
edit2: skulks are the only ones that need a little teamplay on the alien side and stay effective the whole game. (i bet even with exos they can be usefull with good timing (lockdown mode, reload)
edit3: another little tactic is to jump around in front of marines(not too close, and not so that you really take a lot burst shots) wasting some bullets - if he starts to reload -> jump at him.
Sure it is easy to kill a Skulk that walks/leaps to you and 70% just do that.
But there are also Skulks they Leaped somwhere and you can't see them till tgey get the first bite but suddenly there is no more Skulk. And you wait and search him but nothing is there till you hear the Leapsound and you are dead.
But I also have to say that the wallwalking oft the Skulk is terrible sometimes (f.e. Vents).
And it is hard now to say Skulk or whatever ( doesn't count for Lerk) because we have only 2 Maps ( and only 1 is playerd). If you take a look at Triad the things look much better for Skulks ( if you put r_shadowsfade 0) and even for Lerks.
If you take a look at Triad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An extremely good opponent is going to be hard no matter what class they play, take that logic and extend it to lerks, who can literally snipe from the least exposed postions without ever putting themselves at risk, or fades, who have absolute control over their vulnerability.
A skulk is the most limited alien class, there is nothing it can do that other classes cannot do better, a good skulk might be able to use the situation and environment to their advantage to score a couple of kills, a good fade or lerk can do that anywhere, at any time, consistently, with more marines.
Marines also have more options, a marine can avoid places where a skulk might hide, marine squads can and usually do react to each other and cover a lot of the room with their sightlines, this isn't really a problem for lerks and fades as they can stay almost invisible when they attack/teleport to avoid damage altogether, but for a skulk you really have to rely on just not being seen, which is not easy when you have to go on the offensive, any alien class can ambush but fades and lerks can attack directly as well, skulks just can't really.
I agree with that. Maybe an internal test build where animations are disabled can verify it?
Shade with Whip should make some interesting chokepoints, although Cloak is triggered so Commander will have to trigger it once in a while.
Shade with Whip should make some interesting chokepoints, although Cloak is triggered so Commander will have to trigger it once in a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is cloak really a triggered ability? That kinda sucks, and those trigger ability buttons are so sticky. I hope the passive camouflage is decent enough to make whips fairly invisible when the power is out.
Also, many games have marines feeling like they have to build multiple IPs (NS1 must have had this problem too, although I don’t remember it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shouldn't they feel like they have to build multiple IPs?
It is a little silly that aliens get all their spawn and command functionality built into the hive, whereas marines have to build multiple structures and more to the point, have to spend more money the more players they have, as well as building multiple IPs simply to overcome how easy they are to camp.
The hive and egg approach is a much more elegant solution to the spawning problem than IPs are, IPs are clunky and a liability, they aren't a fun thing to have in the game really, what they mostly do is take time to build, cost money to replace, and get you spawn killed.
What if it's a disruption ability? You can cast Phantasm in a small area, and enemy players and structures caught in the AoE become ethereal and invulnerable for a few seconds. There should be a movement penalty so Marines can't just sprint past defenses. Note that it's still a point and click ability, not triggered.
Kharaa players can see players affected by Phantasm, ala Blink trailing effects. Phantom Marines will see Blink ethereal blue effects, and they will be invisible to each other as though they are cloaked.
Imagine what can be done with it. When a hive is under threat the commander can place a fake onos right next to the door and a little to the side so that they can *just* see it to put fear in the marines, they will hesitate to run right in (assuming they think its real).
THATS SO F**KING COOL
...
Basically the balance has been wobbling backwards and forwards between horribly in favour of aliens and slightly in favour of aliens since the alpha came out. It's not really anything new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry i didnt type it clearly. To clarify, yes i agree that its always been in the favour of aliens in the nature you describe but its shifted +10-15% towards aliens to a total of 70% as a result of the main gameplay changes i mentioned since build 180 (excluding the silly lerk gas build 181). Sure there was slowdown removal, but i wouldnt have expected this shift towards aliens given leap removal and speed increase by 10%.
Speed increase was from six to seven I think, which is a bit more than 10%.
Also most of the changes only really affect skulks, which aren't and for quite a while haven't been a significant part of the game. Lerks got buffed technically as lerk gas is now significantly more effective against late game marines, although their vulnerability has caused them to suffer, fades got sort of buffed as I think shotguns took a nerf which would affect fades significantly.
Basically aliens still have just as much ability as ever to choke marines early-mid game with rapid expansion as a result of the new cyst mechanics and their always powerful hive placement. Marines on the other hand took a hit to their means to combat this with the shotgun nerf and price hike.
Basically skulk nerf only really affects their ability to attack at the very start, which they generally don't do, best way to win is to get a hive (which requires skulks to defend, they can still do that as well as ever) and then rush fades. Which is actually easier due to fades being effectively buffed by shotgun nerfing and alien expansion being buffed due to cysts being much more long ranged than old infestation/LOS cysts.
Aliens are good enough if a few people on the server know how to play gorge and fade. Until that happens, we won't know for sure where marines are weak.
Aliens are good enough if a few people on the server know how to play gorge and fade. Until that happens, we won't know for sure where marines are weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That shows Hive rushing (Heliport...) can be countered by Marines, and that aliens aren't always as organised as Marines. :P
Our aliens team didn't have enough Gorges bilebombing that game. A mistake a lot of inexperienced Skulks make is charging straight at advancing Marines, when they should be lurking around and protecting the growing Hive.
Finally a way the whip can get a kill! :p
Well with Camouflage and Sink, it'll be easier for Skulks to hide on home turf should Marines come barging in.
Well i dont really think the skulk is that much of an issue, imo its more the fade that causes the marines to lose that badly, if it takes 3 people to kill a fade, thats having your other 3 teammates having to deal with 5 other aliens as well as taking map control and commanding and such (in a 6v6).