<!--quoteo(post=1873580:date=Sep 8 2011, 12:40 AM:name=wacko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wacko @ Sep 8 2011, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I think we talked about this but I think we may have something that allows you to turn off the auto-squad on clan matches because we agree its very unlikely you will want that feature in clan matches. The issue with giving the command this control is having to add new UI for it thats informative and does not drag away from what the commanders role is. I do not think you want something where you are playing sim city with your squads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't you just use the control groups? I mean, you will already have a display for the com showing who is in what squad. If the com selects 3 players and then presses ctrl + 1 then this could assign them all to the same squad as well. This would allow coms to better manage the squads if they want to, or keep the auto squads. I can just imagine it would be frustrating if players weren't staying in their squads and it would just be so much easier if you could group players into the same squad on the fly.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1873636:date=Sep 8 2011, 07:45 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 8 2011, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Couldn't you just use the control groups? I mean, you will already have a display for the com showing who is in what squad. If the com selects 3 players and then presses ctrl + 1 then this could assign them all to the same squad as well. This would allow coms to better manage the squads if they want to, or keep the auto squads. I can just imagine it would be frustrating if players weren't staying in their squads and it would just be so much easier if you could group players into the same squad on the fly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>+1</b>
Squad spawning is really gonna affect gameplay. As others say; if one marine dies, his squad mates will most likely turtle until he gets teleported back to them. All this teleport on the marines side, soon they are more mobile than the aliens. They already have observatory to get back to base, and phase gate to teleport around the map. Do we really need squad spawning? I don't think it's needed, at all. This would make the phase gates useless in a lot of situations, where they would be used to pressure a point on the map. But I guess it will be removed again once the devs realize this.
<b>Distress beacon needs to cost 15 team res!</b> I can't stress this enough, right now it doesn't matter how the team is doing economical wise. If you got a few obs, you have infinite beacon. The aliens should be able to cut off your res, and just starve your team on res, so you can't beacon. This is also the way Distress Beacon worked in NS1.
In clan matches commander must be able to control squads, obviously this makes sense for competetive play. make it a server option or clans will be let down guys.
I do agree that squad assigning in noob-style pub-games isn't worth the effort, and migth be 'fun-breaking'. Because I think that in pubs people will only get annoyed when they are suddenly assigned a different squad by the commander, a commander they don't even know that well probably.
Said squadsize is 4-5ppl, so the game makes 1-2 squads randomly. Either 1 comm 1squad; or 2 squads á 3ppl; or 2 squads (2ppl including commander / 4ppl rest or 2ppl / 4ppl including commander)
edit: or 1guy squad + 5 ppl squad with the commander in it. (the guy that always plays the commander)
2 Squads: Lets imagine we usually have 2 pressure teams, one going east side the other west side of the map. (because west side is more important i want my best aiming players there/more players - sadly autosquad made a total mess and grouped everything wrong.
So what can i do - unfriend ppl in steam so i can have proper squads?
1 Squad + Commander: Lets imagine we got 2 pressure teams again(but the game only made one big squad), so now after respawning i got a 50% chance to teleport back where i should be? Otherwise i have to run trough the whole map/or from base to the position i belong?
The thing is, this squad stuff is not as simple as you imagine it - teleporting back to your squadmates is a big deal. Either commander managment, or better let ppl decide which squad they want to be in / so you can change squads when needed.
Other things to consider -> lets build a forward "base"(summit reactor next to alien base) a phasegate, an observatory with beacon, a backup powerpack + squad spawning. Sounds fun.
This feature is either going to be abused(giving control of squads) or frustating (because the lack of control) at least for ppl that have tactics + teamplay, and are not random ppl in a anarchy pub rambo match.
It could also be a weapon that a squad member has to purchase. Add a 'squad beacon' to the armory. If you die and one of your surviving squad members has a squad beacon, then you can respawn with them. The guy with the beacon has to play more conservatively, like a medic. If it's visible on the character then aliens could target that player to prevent squad respawning.
<!--quoteo(post=1873636:date=Sep 8 2011, 01:45 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 8 2011, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the com selects 3 players and then presses ctrl + 1 then this could assign them all to the same squad as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1, fits rts standards.
<!--quoteo(post=1873629:date=Sep 8 2011, 08:12 AM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Sep 8 2011, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->first of all it's not a crappy UI, it's a pretty decent minimalist squad UI which has been used in the new Battlefield games for years and it works, secondly as far as your post saying "Here again people can join a squad with their friends the game will put you in squads with your friends" not if you joined and your friends squad was already full you would get sent to an entirely different squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if you played BFBC2 but less than 50% of people use squads. And less than 50% of those that do actually use them beyond pressing the join squad button, and most of those that remain only use them for the occasional squad spawn.
Squads in BFBC2 are about as useless as you can get.
As a general note, there's a very important underlying theme which affects everything relating to commander/player interaction, and it can be summarised thusly.
<u><i>If the commander has to tell you to do it, you probably shouldn't.</i></u>
The reason for this is that all players are theoretically about as smart as the commander, and they also have about as much information relating to the current battle as the commander does. It follows that players can look at the situation, think about it, decide the best course of action, then follow it without the commander being present.
So, if players are doing things like turtling waiting for reinforcements, it's because they are pretty sure they won't be able to push forward without them. So the commander telling them to attack won't make any difference. Either they will attack and die, or keep doing what they're doing. Same goes for waiting in base for a gun, they do it because they need it. Or anything else along these lines.
The only exception to this rule is when the commander tells the player to do something on the other side of the map. And this falls under another rule.
<i><u>If the commander has to tell you to do it, and you should, it's probably not fun.</u></i>
The commander has a better large scale knowledge than the player, so if they say the other side of the map needs help, the player is probably best advised to go there because the commander knows best in this situation. The problem here is that running over to the other side of the map to fight what is probably a much larger enemy force is absolutely no fun, because 1. You have to stop doing what you're doing now, which you are presumably enjoying and have invested time into doing already. 2. You will probably die and lose your stuff, which you won't get back. 3. You don't get anything if you succeed, you just avoid losing, this is roughly equivalent to when a game tells you 'you have to go do this mission now which is really hard, you don't get anything for it but if you don't do it it's game over.' with all the obvious problems that incurs.
So with these two ideas in mind, consider what it means when you say 'the commander should be telling players to do X'. The commander should NEVER be telling players to do anything, because if the commander has to do that, it's something the players either shouldn't, or aren't going to enjoy doing. This obviously makes the commander kind of pointless in an actual command capacity, which is honestly no issue to me, because the alternative is far worse. What you can however do is make ways for the commander to be useful by doing things other than telling players what to do. You can give him ways to affect battles and change the terrain, which is what buildings generally do. But it's also what things like building powers for the alien side and medpacks/ammo packs for the marines do. As well as things like ARCs and MACs.
So, if you want the commander to have some input on the squad system, don't bother trying to make him tell the marines how to play in squads, it won't work. Instead, have him do something that ties into the squad system. Like the squad beacon idea. Make that a thing the commander builds, like an IP, or an IP suck on an ARC chassis which can be driven around. That way the comm has input on the squad by providing them with an important ability and he has control over it by deciding where they spawn. Things like that are much better than finding new ways for the commander to breathe down player's necks.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<u>RE: Addressing stalemates</u>
The weakest link in the Kharaa late game army is the Skulk. It takes a Skulk ~20 seconds to travel to the Marine base, often only to die in 3 seconds to Grenades, Sentries, and crossfire. Skulks can also die to a single shotgun blast. On the other hand, Skulks are an essential part to the Kharaas army throughout the game, due to their versatility, and high damage output.
I think proving Skulks with more substantial <b>optional upgrades</b> (that cost PRes) will allow aliens to finish games easier. I guess the missing Crag and Shift upgrades are suppose to fill those gaps.
<u>RE: Alien dominance</u> The biggest problems in build 186, I feel, remains to be the jarring animations, sudden drops in FPS in combat, and low server tick rate. Those make swift aliens quite difficult to hit.
On the other hand, aliens cannot always rely on stealth, and need ways to assault marines without being slaughtered. Shade Cloaking already does that quite nicely, but is underused in most pub games, due to aliens being scattered, dashing out of their Hives one at time time, as soon as they respawn.
<!--quoteo(post=1879221:date=Oct 11 2011, 01:55 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 11 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>RE: Alien dominance</u> The biggest problem in build 186, I feel, remains to be the jarring animations and low server tick rate. Rapid moving aliens can be very difficult to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've not really experienced this as much. I think it's pretty easy to shoot skulks with the LMG now. I think the biggest thing causing alien dominance is spawn times and an economy advantage. Spawn times for aliens are simply too fast. They can constantly harass the marine RTs and base which makes it difficult for the marines to put pressure on the alien structures.
I was playing a game earlier and with 2 hives and 8 players I could keep spawning as skulk constantly without any wait time. I would die in flight control and get back there within 10 seconds to attack the marines again. This just makes it way too hard for marines to push up as even when they fight off an attack they are swarmed again very quickly. If you tried to do the opposite on marines and harass the alien RTs early in the game, they could just rush your base and RTs before you could do any damage.
Marines get punished for dying as it takes them a long time to spawn and get back to forward positions on the map. This is not the case for aliens and it gives them a huge advantage as it's easy for them to put pressure on without any penalty if they die. As marines if you rush the RTs and leave you base undefended the aliens could end the game quickly. There is no punishment like this for aliens as even if they all rush and die they can easily defend their base and RTs without any problem.
This together with the fact that hives are so cheap and there isn't really anything else to spend the res on before you get the hive (the only 2 viable upgrades to get before a hive are melee 1 and frenzy imo, all other upgrades are far inferior to getting a 2nd hive and make little difference on tier 1 tech, so you may as well just keep spamming hives until you get some fades up as that's the best way to win the game), means that aliens can just be really aggressive without any drawback. The marines are always on the back foot. They need to constantly defend against hordes of incoming skulks and then play "chase the hive" as the aliens constantly place them all around the map, sometimes dropping multiple hives at once.
The only way to win as marine is to manage to kill the hives quickly before the aliens get a chance to get fades and then take control of the map. You then need to block all the tech points with CCs and place sentry guns and phase gets all around the map in order to defend against the constant alien spawns. Only then can you start to establish a forward base near the alien start hive and then slowly move in to win the game.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Design Log)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Design Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've also testing the timing for rifle bullets to make sure they fire at the same rate and they do<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not when RoF depends on performance. Currently, higher client performance = higher RoF. It can take as long as 5 seconds to empty an entire clip with FPS in the teens.
Also, if you wanted to slow down combat between marines and skulks from NS1, why add melee upgrades? Now marines die in 2-3 bites instead of 3-4.
On the theory side... ================ One thing you are not considering is basic psychological reactions. Although the skulk's statistics did not get beefed .... his appearance did.
In NS1 the skulk was a pestery large rat which as long as you aimed correctly was dead. It was mostly when they got the drop on you they were the biggest nuisance.
In NS2 the skulk looks like a fairly large dog running at you. I actually like this change ... marines turn tail just seeing me at times.
On the numbers side.... ================ Is there anyway you can track damage percentiles per encounter on both sides? Maybe you can track percentages of bullets hit? Maybe you can track how many bites land within a time period? (multiple chomps usually occur, but one or two do the real work)
The reason is this ... As a skulk i can take a marine in 1 to 2 chomps early game. Late game is very unlikely because i can gnaw on his foot awhile before he kills me. As a marine i sometimes need help taking one skulk (they have mobility) early game. Late game I usually let the skulk get closer before unloading into him and he is dead. (I have armor now)
So the numbers may not add up because every marine is not a precise shot, but if you close the gap on him you are highly likely to hit.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Could change Observatory so each one has a single distress beacon with it. This is a bit more in line with its use thematically, but it’s a new “ruleâ€. I like the dramatic/spectating aspects of this. Or there could be a cooldown associated with it, that is probably cleaner and more clear to players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel that making <b>Distress Beacon</b> cost <b>Team Resources</b> would reduce the stalemates more than this above. Marines would still be able to spam more observatories for more beacon. If you make Beacon cost TRes, you would not have stalemate scenarios where beacon can keep saving the day. Regardless of marines current resource upkeep. If you make Beacon cost TRes, you would decrease the stalemates significantly. Because the aliens would be able to cut off the marines resources, and then take out the base(which is now very hard due to "infinite" beacon). Right now if you have more than one observatory, you got "infinite" beacon, as energy will replenish faster than you need to beacon. Even if you made a individual cooldown on the observatories, you would still have this problem. Solve it by making Beacon cost Team res (alá NS1, 15 team res). This is also more clear for the players. This change would also nerf the hiding observatories tactic, which is quite OP compared to its cost.
Skulks are weak. Skulks are incredibly weak. They are so weak that they are possibly the single worst unit in the game. Even rifle marines are better than skulks because at least they can group up to increase effectiveness. Grouping skulks just makes them easier to shoot.
Aliens don't dominate early on, they're pretty bad at dominating in general, the worst thing they can do is deny marine expansion a bit, but they can't expand quickly themselves due to infestation constraints.
The ONLY thing aliens have going for them is hive 2. Once they get hive 2 and hold it for a while, then they start to murder everything with fades.
If marines are losing, they're not doing it because of skulk combat prowess, they're doing it because of alien mobility making it impossible for them to secure resources, and because they need more money than the aliens do. A fade costs as much as two basic marine loadouts, but is far more powerful than two marines, grouped or individually, and more to the point once it survives, it can go back to the hive, heal, and continue to be more powerful than another two marines. Another thing is that it doesn't matter how many skulks marines kill, a group of three or four marine will steamroll its way to any location on the map if skulks are the only resistance. The problem is that they can't do anything other than that. They can't hold down three or four res nodes that way, they can't reinforce once they get there, aliens will always win the war of attrition due to reduced costs and better reinforcing speed.
Further, aliens earn more RFK than marines. Marines have less HP, and die more often, the idea behind marines at this point is that they just throw waves of guys at things, get the new guys to pick up the old guns, and keep fighting, this means the few aliens playing fade will get a crapload of RFK from them. Which means they can stay fade as long as they like, while the rest of the team slowly gets res to go fade and keep the cycle up. It means aliens will always field a couple of fades, because as their numbers drop they start to get all the RFK.
That's just off the top of my head, marines have a massive resource inequality compared to aliens. Get some stat tracking in the game and record how much money both sides collect in terms of tres, pres, and how much they spend and on what.
If aliens don't start off right, they lose. If marines don't start off right, they lose, that's how the game works. If marines are losing the game early on, it's strategic failure, not combat failure. You need to get better stat collection in the game, and start playing more games, because making these constant, blind balance changes based on what you 'feel' is not going to achieve the desired effect.
Chris0132 skulks are only weak at Hive 1. As soon as they have leap they are really dangerous. You can Leap from the heil entrance from crevice side to the other entrance. A welplaced bite on a rine while leaping beside him and leaping back or up for a "sneak" leap behind the turning rine and its often over. But most players just do minileaps straight in the marines face. And howmany skulks really play in groups of 2? Almost none, even it is easy to kill 3 marines then. And in late game they just have another role to play. They are Fade support or blindspots searcher in bases. And don't forget they are for free and just like the Zerglings in SC (or the infanterie in some bigger wars).
For me the 2. Hive skulk is really powerful if you learn some basics like Wallleap, Powerleap, Circle Strafing or provocating the marine with parasite so he switches to the pistol or trys to hunt you so you can ambush him. Also a chuckle at the right time can do wonders.
Edit: And it really fun to play with the oponents psycologie a Skulk (and in any other games to :-), things like left,right,left,right,left and then left :-D <3). If marines see 3 skulks in Pipe they really often don't go in if you para em all the time.
skulks are not weak. they're extremely versatile, cheap, and disposable. they can be scouts, skirmishers, glass cannons. their main use is harassment and area denial, and they play the role well. some of their roles overlap with that of the lerk, but if someone lerks then it delays their res for fading.
Skulks are pretty weak. While 2 hive skulks might be good, most of the time the marines have GLs at that point and therefore you need leap to even get close to them. Also, by that point the game is normally over and the majority of the team is going fade anyway.
The reason the aliens win a lot isn't because skulks are killing more than marines. Once the animations and weird jerky movements are smoothed out they will be even easier to kill.
The last thing I heard regarding spawn on squad was that it was being scraped. I think you all can take a deep breath and relax about the topic from here on out... Lol
Skulks seem about right to me. You have to know how to play the skulk to be effective: this means crawling on walls, ceiling, and through vents instead of running around on the ground. They are meant to be played as ambushers: stake out a hiding place, wait for a marine to pass by, and hit him without knowing it.
If you run straight at a marine on the ground, you will lose. Marines' advantage is distance, skulks' advantage is surprise. I don't like the idea of increasing any health or armor related to the unit -- it doesn't make sense.
Switching gears.. do lerks have hive 2 unlocked abilities? I can't tell / remember. Skulks gain leap after two hives, which is helpful, but I don't think lerks gain another ability, which is the problem. The unit is good at the early game at denying areas and taking out structures, but it is very weak in the late game. I think something should be done to make the lerk a more lethal class with additional hives, otherwise there is no reason to play the class once fades become available.
<!--quoteo(post=1879496:date=Oct 12 2011, 08:42 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Oct 12 2011, 08:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris0132 skulks are only weak at Hive 1. As soon as they have leap they are really dangerous. You can Leap from the heil entrance from crevice side to the other entrance. A welplaced bite on a rine while leaping beside him and leaping back or up for a "sneak" leap behind the turning rine and its often over. But most players just do minileaps straight in the marines face. And howmany skulks really play in groups of 2? Almost none, even it is easy to kill 3 marines then. And in late game they just have another role to play. They are Fade support or blindspots searcher in bases. And don't forget they are for free and just like the Zerglings in SC (or the infanterie in some bigger wars).
For me the 2. Hive skulk is really powerful if you learn some basics like Wallleap, Powerleap, Circle Strafing or provocating the marine with parasite so he switches to the pistol or trys to hunt you so you can ambush him. Also a chuckle at the right time can do wonders.
Edit: And it really fun to play with the oponents psycologie a Skulk (and in any other games to :-), things like left,right,left,right,left and then left :-D <3). If marines see 3 skulks in Pipe they really often don't go in if you para em all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By hive 2 every marine has a shotgun, GL, FT, or some other weapon, and is travelling in a group with two other marines. Which renders skulks completely useless.
Even basic shotguns make marines literally better than skulks in melee combat. A shotgun does more damage point blank, the marine doesn't need to control his movement while using it, and it also works at range. Nobody in their right mind is afraid of a skulk, skulks are something you want to run into, they're little green packets of cash for you to collect with your bullets.
Skulks. Are. Worthless.
Everything they can do, any other alien can do better, and most of the things they can do basic marines can do better. Their only advantage over basic marines is greater strategic mobility due to faster run speed, wall climbing, and vent usage.
<!--quoteo(post=1879554:date=Oct 12 2011, 01:25 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 12 2011, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By hive 2 every marine has a shotgun, GL, FT, or some other weapon, and is travelling in a group with two other marines. Which renders skulks completely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chris0132, I'm sorry, but your post is complete nonsense. Read what you typed -- marines with upgrades vs. un-upgraded skulks. Skulks cost 0 PR, shotguns 15, and the other weapons even more. Are you seriously suggesting that a single skulk should be equal to a single marine that has purchased a weapon upgrade? This would cause enormous res inequality, meaning that marines would run out of upgrades very quickly while aliens continue to build res pools, forcing marines to stick with the LMG, making them less effective against aliens.
Skulks are rightfully balanced against marines with an LMG. Both of these cost 0 PR, and thus, both should be about equal. If you are an individual skulk running into a group of marines with flamethrowers, you should die. Thus, I think your complaints have no merit.
Your last comment demonstrates how skulkplay should be: use mobility and surprise to your advantage. Marines and skulks are different gameplay experiences, so unless you want the skulk model to be the size of a marine and carry an LMG, each will have its own advantages and disadvantages. Marines have more health and armor, deal less damage, but are ranged. They have enough speed to get around the map, but cannot outrun aliens nor crawl on walls. Skulks have less health and armor, deal more damage, but are melee. They have superior speed and wall-walking abilities.
There may be some minor tweaking left to be done, but I don't understand your gripes. What do you want skulks to be? What are your suggestions for increasing their worth? Keep in mind that aliens still win the majority of public games. Creating a skulk buff will only skew the alien advantage even more.
<!--quoteo(post=1879560:date=Oct 12 2011, 07:41 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Oct 12 2011, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris0132, I'm sorry, but your post is complete nonsense. Read what you typed -- marines with upgrades vs. un-upgraded skulks. Skulks cost 0 PR, shotguns 15, and the other weapons even more. Are you seriously suggesting that a single skulk should be equal to a single marine that has purchased a weapon upgrade? This would cause enormous res inequality, meaning that marines would run out of upgrades very quickly while aliens continue to build res pools, forcing marines to stick with the LMG, making them less effective against aliens.
Skulks are rightfully balanced against marines with an LMG. Both of these cost 0 PR, and thus, both should be about equal. If you are an individual skulk running into a group of marines with flamethrowers, you should die. Thus, I think your complaints have no merit.
Your last comment demonstrates how skulkplay should be: use mobility and surprise to your advantage. Marines and skulks are different gameplay experiences, so unless you want the skulk model to be the size of a marine and carry an LMG, each will have its own advantages and disadvantages. Marines have more health and armor, deal less damage, but are ranged. They have enough speed to get around the map, but cannot outrun aliens nor crawl on walls. Skulks have less health and armor, deal more damage, but are melee. They have superior speed and wall-walking abilities.
There may be some minor tweaking left to be done, but I don't understand your gripes. What do you want skulks to be? What are your suggestions for increasing their worth? Keep in mind that aliens still win the majority of public games. Creating a skulk buff will only skew the alien advantage even more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the argument was that skulks are not useless because they're good at hive 2, they aren't good at hive 2 because by hive 2 they're useless. At hive 1, they're useless because they are dubiously balanced 1 on 1, and certainly not balanced in groups. Like I said, marines get better in groups, skulks get easier to see, harder to attack with (they get in each others' way) and easier to hit (miss one, hit another). The way skulks usually work is that they fail miserably actually attacking marines, but can move around the map easier so they can hit marine resource income.
Which is the crux of my argument, skulks are pathetically weak in combat, nerfing them in combat is going to do absolutely nothing to help with any balance issues in the early game, it's only going to separate the roles even further. As it is, skulks and marines are playing completely different games. If marines group up and attack alien expansions en-masse, there's generally very little aliens can do about it because of skulks being so weak. Conversely, if skulks ignore marines and go for marine resource expansions, then there's very little marines can do about that because they lack the mobility to respond to attacks across a wide area.
Essentially, the game could be microcosmed as a marine and a skulk running towards each other, running straight past each other, and then killing each other's hive/cc. The game actually penalises both sides for engaging in real combat, because there is absolutely no reason to. Marines won't achieve anything killing endless waves of skulks, and skulks won't achieve anything throwing themselves at marines.
What you need to do is fix that, give marines the ability to secure their early expansions, give aliens the ability to actually fight with skulks, the win/loss ratio is not being affected by combat, because if that were so then aliens would be losing constantly. It's a strategic imbalance caused by skulk's ability to hit strategic assets. What usually happens is that skulks start chomping on extractors, causing marines to constantly be running to fix/defend/replace them, meaning marines never get around to pushing out and destroying alien extractors (which they can't build very quickly because of infestation) and so the marines let the aliens build up their slow lead, and then they get slaughtered by the time hive 2 goes up.
Marines upgrade faster than aliens, they can do it in one base, they can expand their res income faster, by all pure combat mechanics they should be dominating, this further suggests that it is a strategic problem, not a combat problem.
I think you make the assumption that for all marines on the marine team, you must defend all built assets, including extractors, which is a player-controlled strategic decision. With the right commander and marine squads, it's very easy to both secure extractor expansion while attacking alien positions. This is the importance of squads. If you have all members of the team on the same squad doing the same thing, obviously you cannot do two things at once. You must delineate different roles for each squad or squads, otherwise the scenario that you described in your post will occur.
I disagree that we need to buff the skulk because it's weak. If you play the skulk as its meant to be played, it is very easy to take down marines and prevent them from attacking or defending. Also, if you work together with your alien team, you are much more successful in combat. I see a lot of rambo skulks running at hordes of marine squads wondering why they died so quickly. The simple answer is that skulks are not designed to engage in frontal attacks. They are meant to skulk, hence the name.
I wouldn't mind seeing the extractor armor being increased slightly to allow marines more time to protect their res. As a commander, it's much easier to just recycle whenever an extractor is being attacked instead of waiting for the marines to run to it. Also, I really liked the electrification upgrade from NS1, and I think this should be employed in NS2. Make a researchable upgrade at the Robotics factor that allows MACs and extractors to gain an electro-field that shocks any nearby enemies. Perhaps instead of dealing moderate damage, it can deal minimal damage (1-2 health) and temporarily stun the target (2 seconds), which prohibits them from moving or attacking. This way a skulk or fade could still take out an extractor without dying, it would just take an incredibly long time. Lerks and gorges with bile bomb would be able to circumvent this issue, increasing their role responsibility for the alien team. Also, maybe the onos's stomp can disable electro-field by causing it to short-circuit.
<b><u>Please</u>, for the love of everything i beg you, stay away from in-game benefits by taunting. I love taunt, i have used it at times in all the games i have played( tribes2/V, avp2,ns1,etc.....), however, it just feels extremely inappropriate to get <i>power(s/z)</i> from it ! </b>
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1879233:date=Oct 11 2011, 03:52 AM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Oct 11 2011, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not when RoF depends on performance. Currently, higher client performance = higher RoF. It can take as long as 5 seconds to empty an entire clip with FPS in the teens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. The rifle has a maxium ROF of 18 shots/sec. If your FPS is lower than 18, your ROF will equal your FPS.
However, even if your FPS is high (like 90+), your ROF is actually lower than what it should be. At 90 fps, your actual ROF is like 15-16, and at 30 fps its like 13-14 (measured by logging from inside the code).
Pretty easy to patch up the code to at least give you 18 ROF if your average FPS is 18+, though (not much use special casing lower than 18 FPS anyhow, game isn't supposed to be playable at that FPS).
The patch increases damage output by 25-15% for the rifle only. Might be enough to explain why skulks dominate marines early game compared to NS1.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1879671:date=Oct 13 2011, 01:57 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Oct 13 2011, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good point. The rifle has a maxium ROF of 18 shots/sec. If your FPS is lower than 18, your ROF will equal your FPS.
However, even if your FPS is high (like 90+), your ROF is actually lower than what it should be. At 90 fps, your actual ROF is like 15-16, and at 30 fps its like 13-14 (measured by logging from inside the code).
Pretty easy to patch up the code to at least give you 18 ROF if your average FPS is 18+, though (not much use special casing lower than 18 FPS anyhow, game isn't supposed to be playable at that FPS).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go matso go! Looking forward to your patch awesomeness :D
A weakness of the Gorge is that it's useless in close combat, yet it is required to stay there all the time (maintaining Cysts, healing friendlies, cannot escape once a marine runs after you)
Make Belly Slide actually useful. Make the Gorge possibly faster than a marine while on Infestation (Lerks fly, Skulks climb, Gorges have nothing at the moment) Make the Cyst and Hydra a launched projectile that grows where it lands so the Gorge can stay back a bit without getting killed. Healing Spray is already going to become a lasting cloud that remains, so that's also a good thing in its favour.
Comments
Couldn't you just use the control groups? I mean, you will already have a display for the com showing who is in what squad. If the com selects 3 players and then presses ctrl + 1 then this could assign them all to the same squad as well. This would allow coms to better manage the squads if they want to, or keep the auto squads. I can just imagine it would be frustrating if players weren't staying in their squads and it would just be so much easier if you could group players into the same squad on the fly.
<b>+1</b>
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Squad spawning is really gonna affect gameplay. As others say; if one marine dies, his squad mates will most likely turtle until he gets teleported back to them. All this teleport on the marines side, soon they are more mobile than the aliens. They already have observatory to get back to base, and phase gate to teleport around the map. Do we really need squad spawning? I don't think it's needed, at all.
This would make the phase gates useless in a lot of situations, where they would be used to pressure a point on the map.
But I guess it will be removed again once the devs realize this.
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<b>Distress beacon needs to cost 15 team res!</b>
I can't stress this enough, right now it doesn't matter how the team is doing economical wise. If you got a few obs, you have infinite beacon.
The aliens should be able to cut off your res, and just starve your team on res, so you can't beacon.
This is also the way Distress Beacon worked in NS1.
I do agree that squad assigning in noob-style pub-games isn't worth the effort, and migth be 'fun-breaking'. Because I think that in pubs people will only get annoyed when they are suddenly assigned a different squad by the commander, a commander they don't even know that well probably.
Said squadsize is 4-5ppl, so the game makes 1-2 squads randomly. Either 1 comm 1squad; or 2 squads á 3ppl; or 2 squads (2ppl including commander / 4ppl rest or 2ppl / 4ppl including commander)
edit: or 1guy squad + 5 ppl squad with the commander in it. (the guy that always plays the commander)
2 Squads:
Lets imagine we usually have 2 pressure teams, one going east side the other west side of the map. (because west side is more important i want my best aiming players there/more players - sadly autosquad made a total mess and grouped everything wrong.
So what can i do - unfriend ppl in steam so i can have proper squads?
1 Squad + Commander:
Lets imagine we got 2 pressure teams again(but the game only made one big squad), so now after respawning i got a 50% chance to teleport back where i should be? Otherwise i have to run trough the whole map/or from base to the position i belong?
The thing is, this squad stuff is not as simple as you imagine it - teleporting back to your squadmates is a big deal.
Either commander managment, or better let ppl decide which squad they want to be in / so you can change squads when needed.
Other things to consider -> lets build a forward "base"(summit reactor next to alien base) a phasegate, an observatory with beacon, a backup powerpack + squad spawning. Sounds fun.
This feature is either going to be abused(giving control of squads) or frustating (because the lack of control) at least for ppl that have tactics + teamplay, and are not random ppl in a anarchy pub rambo match.
+1, fits rts standards.
I don't know if you played BFBC2 but less than 50% of people use squads. And less than 50% of those that do actually use them beyond pressing the join squad button, and most of those that remain only use them for the occasional squad spawn.
Squads in BFBC2 are about as useless as you can get.
As a general note, there's a very important underlying theme which affects everything relating to commander/player interaction, and it can be summarised thusly.
<u><i>If the commander has to tell you to do it, you probably shouldn't.</i></u>
The reason for this is that all players are theoretically about as smart as the commander, and they also have about as much information relating to the current battle as the commander does. It follows that players can look at the situation, think about it, decide the best course of action, then follow it without the commander being present.
So, if players are doing things like turtling waiting for reinforcements, it's because they are pretty sure they won't be able to push forward without them. So the commander telling them to attack won't make any difference. Either they will attack and die, or keep doing what they're doing. Same goes for waiting in base for a gun, they do it because they need it. Or anything else along these lines.
The only exception to this rule is when the commander tells the player to do something on the other side of the map. And this falls under another rule.
<i><u>If the commander has to tell you to do it, and you should, it's probably not fun.</u></i>
The commander has a better large scale knowledge than the player, so if they say the other side of the map needs help, the player is probably best advised to go there because the commander knows best in this situation. The problem here is that running over to the other side of the map to fight what is probably a much larger enemy force is absolutely no fun, because 1. You have to stop doing what you're doing now, which you are presumably enjoying and have invested time into doing already. 2. You will probably die and lose your stuff, which you won't get back. 3. You don't get anything if you succeed, you just avoid losing, this is roughly equivalent to when a game tells you 'you have to go do this mission now which is really hard, you don't get anything for it but if you don't do it it's game over.' with all the obvious problems that incurs.
So with these two ideas in mind, consider what it means when you say 'the commander should be telling players to do X'. The commander should NEVER be telling players to do anything, because if the commander has to do that, it's something the players either shouldn't, or aren't going to enjoy doing. This obviously makes the commander kind of pointless in an actual command capacity, which is honestly no issue to me, because the alternative is far worse. What you can however do is make ways for the commander to be useful by doing things other than telling players what to do. You can give him ways to affect battles and change the terrain, which is what buildings generally do. But it's also what things like building powers for the alien side and medpacks/ammo packs for the marines do. As well as things like ARCs and MACs.
So, if you want the commander to have some input on the squad system, don't bother trying to make him tell the marines how to play in squads, it won't work. Instead, have him do something that ties into the squad system. Like the squad beacon idea. Make that a thing the commander builds, like an IP, or an IP suck on an ARC chassis which can be driven around. That way the comm has input on the squad by providing them with an important ability and he has control over it by deciding where they spawn. Things like that are much better than finding new ways for the commander to breathe down player's necks.
The weakest link in the Kharaa late game army is the Skulk. It takes a Skulk ~20 seconds to travel to the Marine base, often only to die in 3 seconds to Grenades, Sentries, and crossfire. Skulks can also die to a single shotgun blast. On the other hand, Skulks are an essential part to the Kharaas army throughout the game, due to their versatility, and high damage output.
I think proving Skulks with more substantial <b>optional upgrades</b> (that cost PRes) will allow aliens to finish games easier. I guess the missing Crag and Shift upgrades are suppose to fill those gaps.
<u>RE: Alien dominance</u>
The biggest problems in build 186, I feel, remains to be the jarring animations, sudden drops in FPS in combat, and low server tick rate. Those make swift aliens quite difficult to hit.
On the other hand, aliens cannot always rely on stealth, and need ways to assault marines without being slaughtered. Shade Cloaking already does that quite nicely, but is underused in most pub games, due to aliens being scattered, dashing out of their Hives one at time time, as soon as they respawn.
The biggest problem in build 186, I feel, remains to be the jarring animations and low server tick rate. Rapid moving aliens can be very difficult to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've not really experienced this as much. I think it's pretty easy to shoot skulks with the LMG now. I think the biggest thing causing alien dominance is spawn times and an economy advantage. Spawn times for aliens are simply too fast. They can constantly harass the marine RTs and base which makes it difficult for the marines to put pressure on the alien structures.
I was playing a game earlier and with 2 hives and 8 players I could keep spawning as skulk constantly without any wait time. I would die in flight control and get back there within 10 seconds to attack the marines again. This just makes it way too hard for marines to push up as even when they fight off an attack they are swarmed again very quickly. If you tried to do the opposite on marines and harass the alien RTs early in the game, they could just rush your base and RTs before you could do any damage.
Marines get punished for dying as it takes them a long time to spawn and get back to forward positions on the map. This is not the case for aliens and it gives them a huge advantage as it's easy for them to put pressure on without any penalty if they die. As marines if you rush the RTs and leave you base undefended the aliens could end the game quickly. There is no punishment like this for aliens as even if they all rush and die they can easily defend their base and RTs without any problem.
This together with the fact that hives are so cheap and there isn't really anything else to spend the res on before you get the hive (the only 2 viable upgrades to get before a hive are melee 1 and frenzy imo, all other upgrades are far inferior to getting a 2nd hive and make little difference on tier 1 tech, so you may as well just keep spamming hives until you get some fades up as that's the best way to win the game), means that aliens can just be really aggressive without any drawback. The marines are always on the back foot. They need to constantly defend against hordes of incoming skulks and then play "chase the hive" as the aliens constantly place them all around the map, sometimes dropping multiple hives at once.
The only way to win as marine is to manage to kill the hives quickly before the aliens get a chance to get fades and then take control of the map. You then need to block all the tech points with CCs and place sentry guns and phase gets all around the map in order to defend against the constant alien spawns. Only then can you start to establish a forward base near the alien start hive and then slowly move in to win the game.
Not when RoF depends on performance. Currently, higher client performance = higher RoF. It can take as long as 5 seconds to empty an entire clip with FPS in the teens.
Also, if you wanted to slow down combat between marines and skulks from NS1, why add melee upgrades? Now marines die in 2-3 bites instead of 3-4.
On the theory side...
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One thing you are not considering is basic psychological reactions.
Although the skulk's statistics did not get beefed .... his appearance did.
In NS1 the skulk was a pestery large rat which as long as you aimed correctly was dead.
It was mostly when they got the drop on you they were the biggest nuisance.
In NS2 the skulk looks like a fairly large dog running at you.
I actually like this change ... marines turn tail just seeing me at times.
On the numbers side....
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Is there anyway you can track damage percentiles per encounter on both sides?
Maybe you can track percentages of bullets hit?
Maybe you can track how many bites land within a time period? (multiple chomps usually occur, but one or two do the real work)
The reason is this ...
As a skulk i can take a marine in 1 to 2 chomps early game.
Late game is very unlikely because i can gnaw on his foot awhile before he kills me.
As a marine i sometimes need help taking one skulk (they have mobility) early game.
Late game I usually let the skulk get closer before unloading into him and he is dead. (I have armor now)
So the numbers may not add up because every marine is not a precise shot, but if you close the gap on him you are highly likely to hit.
I feel that making <b>Distress Beacon</b> cost <b>Team Resources</b> would reduce the stalemates more than this above.
Marines would still be able to spam more observatories for more beacon.
If you make Beacon cost TRes, you would not have stalemate scenarios where beacon can keep saving the day. Regardless of marines current resource upkeep.
If you make Beacon cost TRes, you would decrease the stalemates significantly. Because the aliens would be able to cut off the marines resources, and then take out the base(which is now very hard due to "infinite" beacon).
Right now if you have more than one observatory, you got "infinite" beacon, as energy will replenish faster than you need to beacon.
Even if you made a individual cooldown on the observatories, you would still have this problem.
Solve it by making Beacon cost Team res (alá NS1, 15 team res). This is also more clear for the players.
This change would also nerf the hiding observatories tactic, which is quite OP compared to its cost.
Aliens don't dominate early on, they're pretty bad at dominating in general, the worst thing they can do is deny marine expansion a bit, but they can't expand quickly themselves due to infestation constraints.
The ONLY thing aliens have going for them is hive 2. Once they get hive 2 and hold it for a while, then they start to murder everything with fades.
If marines are losing, they're not doing it because of skulk combat prowess, they're doing it because of alien mobility making it impossible for them to secure resources, and because they need more money than the aliens do. A fade costs as much as two basic marine loadouts, but is far more powerful than two marines, grouped or individually, and more to the point once it survives, it can go back to the hive, heal, and continue to be more powerful than another two marines. Another thing is that it doesn't matter how many skulks marines kill, a group of three or four marine will steamroll its way to any location on the map if skulks are the only resistance. The problem is that they can't do anything other than that. They can't hold down three or four res nodes that way, they can't reinforce once they get there, aliens will always win the war of attrition due to reduced costs and better reinforcing speed.
Further, aliens earn more RFK than marines. Marines have less HP, and die more often, the idea behind marines at this point is that they just throw waves of guys at things, get the new guys to pick up the old guns, and keep fighting, this means the few aliens playing fade will get a crapload of RFK from them. Which means they can stay fade as long as they like, while the rest of the team slowly gets res to go fade and keep the cycle up. It means aliens will always field a couple of fades, because as their numbers drop they start to get all the RFK.
That's just off the top of my head, marines have a massive resource inequality compared to aliens. Get some stat tracking in the game and record how much money both sides collect in terms of tres, pres, and how much they spend and on what.
If aliens don't start off right, they lose. If marines don't start off right, they lose, that's how the game works. If marines are losing the game early on, it's strategic failure, not combat failure. You need to get better stat collection in the game, and start playing more games, because making these constant, blind balance changes based on what you 'feel' is not going to achieve the desired effect.
A welplaced bite on a rine while leaping beside him and leaping back or up for a "sneak" leap behind the turning rine and its often over.
But most players just do minileaps straight in the marines face. And howmany skulks really play in groups of 2? Almost none, even it is easy to kill 3 marines then.
And in late game they just have another role to play. They are Fade support or blindspots searcher in bases.
And don't forget they are for free and just like the Zerglings in SC (or the infanterie in some bigger wars).
For me the 2. Hive skulk is really powerful if you learn some basics like Wallleap, Powerleap, Circle Strafing or provocating the marine with parasite so he switches to the pistol or trys to hunt you so you can ambush him. Also a chuckle at the right time can do wonders.
Edit: And it really fun to play with the oponents psycologie a Skulk (and in any other games to :-), things like left,right,left,right,left and then left :-D <3). If marines see 3 skulks in Pipe they really often don't go in if you para em all the time.
The reason the aliens win a lot isn't because skulks are killing more than marines. Once the animations and weird jerky movements are smoothed out they will be even easier to kill.
If you run straight at a marine on the ground, you will lose. Marines' advantage is distance, skulks' advantage is surprise. I don't like the idea of increasing any health or armor related to the unit -- it doesn't make sense.
Switching gears.. do lerks have hive 2 unlocked abilities? I can't tell / remember. Skulks gain leap after two hives, which is helpful, but I don't think lerks gain another ability, which is the problem. The unit is good at the early game at denying areas and taking out structures, but it is very weak in the late game. I think something should be done to make the lerk a more lethal class with additional hives, otherwise there is no reason to play the class once fades become available.
A welplaced bite on a rine while leaping beside him and leaping back or up for a "sneak" leap behind the turning rine and its often over.
But most players just do minileaps straight in the marines face. And howmany skulks really play in groups of 2? Almost none, even it is easy to kill 3 marines then.
And in late game they just have another role to play. They are Fade support or blindspots searcher in bases.
And don't forget they are for free and just like the Zerglings in SC (or the infanterie in some bigger wars).
For me the 2. Hive skulk is really powerful if you learn some basics like Wallleap, Powerleap, Circle Strafing or provocating the marine with parasite so he switches to the pistol or trys to hunt you so you can ambush him. Also a chuckle at the right time can do wonders.
Edit: And it really fun to play with the oponents psycologie a Skulk (and in any other games to :-), things like left,right,left,right,left and then left :-D <3). If marines see 3 skulks in Pipe they really often don't go in if you para em all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By hive 2 every marine has a shotgun, GL, FT, or some other weapon, and is travelling in a group with two other marines. Which renders skulks completely useless.
Even basic shotguns make marines literally better than skulks in melee combat. A shotgun does more damage point blank, the marine doesn't need to control his movement while using it, and it also works at range. Nobody in their right mind is afraid of a skulk, skulks are something you want to run into, they're little green packets of cash for you to collect with your bullets.
Skulks. Are. Worthless.
Everything they can do, any other alien can do better, and most of the things they can do basic marines can do better. Their only advantage over basic marines is greater strategic mobility due to faster run speed, wall climbing, and vent usage.
Chris0132, I'm sorry, but your post is complete nonsense. Read what you typed -- marines with upgrades vs. un-upgraded skulks. Skulks cost 0 PR, shotguns 15, and the other weapons even more. Are you seriously suggesting that a single skulk should be equal to a single marine that has purchased a weapon upgrade? This would cause enormous res inequality, meaning that marines would run out of upgrades very quickly while aliens continue to build res pools, forcing marines to stick with the LMG, making them less effective against aliens.
Skulks are rightfully balanced against marines with an LMG. Both of these cost 0 PR, and thus, both should be about equal. If you are an individual skulk running into a group of marines with flamethrowers, you should die. Thus, I think your complaints have no merit.
Your last comment demonstrates how skulkplay should be: use mobility and surprise to your advantage. Marines and skulks are different gameplay experiences, so unless you want the skulk model to be the size of a marine and carry an LMG, each will have its own advantages and disadvantages. Marines have more health and armor, deal less damage, but are ranged. They have enough speed to get around the map, but cannot outrun aliens nor crawl on walls. Skulks have less health and armor, deal more damage, but are melee. They have superior speed and wall-walking abilities.
There may be some minor tweaking left to be done, but I don't understand your gripes. What do you want skulks to be? What are your suggestions for increasing their worth? Keep in mind that aliens still win the majority of public games. Creating a skulk buff will only skew the alien advantage even more.
Skulks are rightfully balanced against marines with an LMG. Both of these cost 0 PR, and thus, both should be about equal. If you are an individual skulk running into a group of marines with flamethrowers, you should die. Thus, I think your complaints have no merit.
Your last comment demonstrates how skulkplay should be: use mobility and surprise to your advantage. Marines and skulks are different gameplay experiences, so unless you want the skulk model to be the size of a marine and carry an LMG, each will have its own advantages and disadvantages. Marines have more health and armor, deal less damage, but are ranged. They have enough speed to get around the map, but cannot outrun aliens nor crawl on walls. Skulks have less health and armor, deal more damage, but are melee. They have superior speed and wall-walking abilities.
There may be some minor tweaking left to be done, but I don't understand your gripes. What do you want skulks to be? What are your suggestions for increasing their worth? Keep in mind that aliens still win the majority of public games. Creating a skulk buff will only skew the alien advantage even more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the argument was that skulks are not useless because they're good at hive 2, they aren't good at hive 2 because by hive 2 they're useless. At hive 1, they're useless because they are dubiously balanced 1 on 1, and certainly not balanced in groups. Like I said, marines get better in groups, skulks get easier to see, harder to attack with (they get in each others' way) and easier to hit (miss one, hit another). The way skulks usually work is that they fail miserably actually attacking marines, but can move around the map easier so they can hit marine resource income.
Which is the crux of my argument, skulks are pathetically weak in combat, nerfing them in combat is going to do absolutely nothing to help with any balance issues in the early game, it's only going to separate the roles even further. As it is, skulks and marines are playing completely different games. If marines group up and attack alien expansions en-masse, there's generally very little aliens can do about it because of skulks being so weak. Conversely, if skulks ignore marines and go for marine resource expansions, then there's very little marines can do about that because they lack the mobility to respond to attacks across a wide area.
Essentially, the game could be microcosmed as a marine and a skulk running towards each other, running straight past each other, and then killing each other's hive/cc. The game actually penalises both sides for engaging in real combat, because there is absolutely no reason to. Marines won't achieve anything killing endless waves of skulks, and skulks won't achieve anything throwing themselves at marines.
What you need to do is fix that, give marines the ability to secure their early expansions, give aliens the ability to actually fight with skulks, the win/loss ratio is not being affected by combat, because if that were so then aliens would be losing constantly. It's a strategic imbalance caused by skulk's ability to hit strategic assets. What usually happens is that skulks start chomping on extractors, causing marines to constantly be running to fix/defend/replace them, meaning marines never get around to pushing out and destroying alien extractors (which they can't build very quickly because of infestation) and so the marines let the aliens build up their slow lead, and then they get slaughtered by the time hive 2 goes up.
Marines upgrade faster than aliens, they can do it in one base, they can expand their res income faster, by all pure combat mechanics they should be dominating, this further suggests that it is a strategic problem, not a combat problem.
I disagree that we need to buff the skulk because it's weak. If you play the skulk as its meant to be played, it is very easy to take down marines and prevent them from attacking or defending. Also, if you work together with your alien team, you are much more successful in combat. I see a lot of rambo skulks running at hordes of marine squads wondering why they died so quickly. The simple answer is that skulks are not designed to engage in frontal attacks. They are meant to skulk, hence the name.
I wouldn't mind seeing the extractor armor being increased slightly to allow marines more time to protect their res. As a commander, it's much easier to just recycle whenever an extractor is being attacked instead of waiting for the marines to run to it. Also, I really liked the electrification upgrade from NS1, and I think this should be employed in NS2. Make a researchable upgrade at the Robotics factor that allows MACs and extractors to gain an electro-field that shocks any nearby enemies. Perhaps instead of dealing moderate damage, it can deal minimal damage (1-2 health) and temporarily stun the target (2 seconds), which prohibits them from moving or attacking. This way a skulk or fade could still take out an extractor without dying, it would just take an incredibly long time. Lerks and gorges with bile bomb would be able to circumvent this issue, increasing their role responsibility for the alien team. Also, maybe the onos's stomp can disable electro-field by causing it to short-circuit.
Just some friendly suggestions.
I love taunt, i have used it at times in all the games i have played( tribes2/V, avp2,ns1,etc.....), however, it just feels extremely inappropriate to get <i>power(s/z)</i> from it !
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Good point. The rifle has a maxium ROF of 18 shots/sec. If your FPS is lower than 18, your ROF will equal your FPS.
However, even if your FPS is high (like 90+), your ROF is actually lower than what it should be. At 90 fps, your actual ROF is like 15-16, and at 30 fps its like 13-14 (measured by logging from inside the code).
Pretty easy to patch up the code to at least give you 18 ROF if your average FPS is 18+, though (not much use special casing lower than 18 FPS anyhow, game isn't supposed to be playable at that FPS).
The patch increases damage output by 25-15% for the rifle only. Might be enough to explain why skulks dominate marines early game compared to NS1.
However, even if your FPS is high (like 90+), your ROF is actually lower than what it should be. At 90 fps, your actual ROF is like 15-16, and at 30 fps its like 13-14 (measured by logging from inside the code).
Pretty easy to patch up the code to at least give you 18 ROF if your average FPS is 18+, though (not much use special casing lower than 18 FPS anyhow, game isn't supposed to be playable at that FPS).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go matso go! Looking forward to your patch awesomeness :D
Make Belly Slide actually useful. Make the Gorge possibly faster than a marine while on Infestation (Lerks fly, Skulks climb, Gorges have nothing at the moment)
Make the Cyst and Hydra a launched projectile that grows where it lands so the Gorge can stay back a bit without getting killed.
Healing Spray is already going to become a lasting cloud that remains, so that's also a good thing in its favour.