It is really great that you're voicing your opinion, I'm so proud of you =). But sooner or later you'll have to learn that when a question is asked generally your response addresses that question. I know, I know, inside your noggin you're trying to think of that question as a dodgy, deceptive and malicious attack on your inabilities to choose correct and meaningful words, not ironic at all considering your speech policing in other threads[1,2]! It's comfortable for you I know, but I welcome you out of your tiny bubble hidden by the veil of the internet- the vehicle by which you can be strong, handsome, hell even a space marine. Continuing, I feel for your situation, your need to envision and fabricate arguments to answer to your fullest man-potential, receiving that oh so well needed dose of self esteem.
This might come as a shock to you (but I'll forgive and forget in light of your situation) but saying at the end of each statement "broken", no matter how many times you say it, does not make it come any more true! No more than praying to a god everyday makes him exist more, or ###### everyday means you're getting laid- and yes my analogies are iron in their truth and relevance.
I do admire your effort though, but if you can scroll up 2 whole posts you'll notice I didn't ask why you didn't like devour, I asked you to define broken and <u>actually</u> relate it to the topic! Not "tell me your opinion on devour and add broken".
oh lord devour, most complained about attack ever. if it is integrated into NS2 it should be balanced somehow...and not so ridiculously easy to ensure kills with it. if i had a nickel for every time i've seen the inside of an onoses stomach xD there should be a way for the marine to get out himself if he is eaten, like an option to knife the guys insides hehehe
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos is a tank - if only due to his excessive health. And yet the NS1 Onos is used as a hit-and-run unit. Broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what? So the onos goes in, devours one marine and has to retreat. This is only 'broken' if you have a whole bunch of preconceptions and assumptions about how the onos <i>should</i> play as opposed to how it <i>does</i> play in real games. Like Einstein said: Real world data trumps theory. I suggest you forget your perfect theories about how things should be and accept them as they are. Once you do this, you will see that this is not the game mechanic that is broken, it's just a consequence of rigid and inflexible thinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The NS1 Onos does one-hit-kills<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, it costs 75 PRes to access this 1 hit kill ability and it has a long delay before reuse. Focus gore is 2 hit kill (except HA). It is entirely possible to avoid being devoured if you play smart. When I'm up against an onos, I imagine there is a 'devour zone' out in front of an onos that extends out 4-5 meters. If I don't want to be devoured, I stay out of that zone.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but unlike one-hit kills in any reasonably-balanced game, you do not have to aim<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A little over-exadurated, you do have to aim and for new players it's VERY confusing where to aim until they gain experience. But I'll agree the NS1 devour ability is slightly easy, but only slightly.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is no skill required, and there is no risk involved. Broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? No skill and no risk? OK, you're wandering into fantasy land here that contradicts many hundreds of hours of onos playing experience. I have no idea what your trying to say other than to give you another excuse to spam 'broken'.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it takes control away from the victim player for even longer than it should be expected to (longer than death). Broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This seems to be the most common complaint. I agree, it takes too long to be devoured. Reducing this time is important if the devour returns, but this also allows the onos to devour more marines/minute, so that's a tricky one.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's actual risk because you can die very easily as a skulk, and there's some skill involved in getting close enough without being killed first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Back to the 'no skill, no risk' point again? You are wrong on this. Perhaps it's only your perception that this is the case, because my experience is the exact opposite. Skill and risk are very subjective terms anyway, so it's not surprising there is a large variation, but I can't help thinking you are distorting your memories to provide evidence to back up your belief.
PS, please don't argue/reply. I'm just giving you some feedback in the hope that you can take it on board calmly and considerately.
<!--quoteo(post=1849316:date=May 31 2011, 05:11 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 31 2011, 05:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, okay, but no response to my <b>actual post</b>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I was trying to be constructive a bit ago until your assumptive "reasoning" just made any healthy back and forth discussion a bit difficult. See your argument about credits and resources, I do agree with you on that topic but your judgements seem to always find their ground on in subjectivity. Last time I tried to make suggestions all you could offer was:
<!--quoteo(post=1847688:date=May 21 2011, 04:19 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 21 2011, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still a one-hit kill weapon. What does it fix?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is it just a 1 hit kill weapon that annoys you or now more criteria? Crae already wrote good responses to your bullet points- and I gave a suggestion last page about how to change what most people dislike about onos.
To reiterate, my suggestion is to make the marine die before the onos devour cooldown finishes. Say the devour takes 30 seconds, the marine should only be able to be saved for 7 seconds. Otherwise, the marine dies and gets ready for respawn but the onos still has to finish digesting.
To me it makes sense that a halfway digested marine would be in no position to battle (or alive lol). This way the marine doesn't have to sit in the stomach for such a long time, there is more incentive to hit the onos asap if someone is devoured, and the onos still has quite the devour cooldown to deal with.
I'm really not understanding why the subjective attitude about onos devour. It worked in NS1, yes even in competitive play and the game is still going strong to this day. I think that's proof devour never killed the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1849546:date=Jun 2 2011, 09:43 AM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Jun 2 2011, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is only 'broken' if you have a whole bunch of preconceptions and assumptions about how the onos <i>should</i> play as opposed to how it <i>does</i> play in real games. Like Einstein said: Real world data trumps theory. I suggest you forget your perfect theories about how things should be and accept them as they are. Once you do this, you will see that this is not the game mechanic that is broken, it's just a consequence of rigid and inflexible thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are right. You are perfectly right. The NS2 Onos currently does not have devour. This is a fact, you should forget your perfect theories about how things should be and accept this as it is. Wow, and from the tone of your post I thought you were disagreeing with me! You had me fooled, buddy.
<!--quoteo(post=1849561:date=Jun 2 2011, 01:43 PM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jun 2 2011, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crae already wrote good responses to your bullet points-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They really weren't. His only argument that he paraphrased repeatedly was "THAT'S JUST HOW DEVOUR IS, SO THERE." There isn't much to say to such an irrational argument.
The only other point he made was "Onos expensive, Onos good." but I've always preached against that RTS-style dynamic for NS2. It works great in an RTS because your units don't care that something can one-hit-kill them so economic superiority leading to complete ball-busting military superiority is A-OK. But bringing anti-player superweapons into the game, as cool as they may be, isn't fun for the little guys. It worked in NS overall because you had a single resource that was shared among the team, and so there was an actual investment (by the team, represented by you) involved in going Onos (hey, there's that risk!), so if you ###### up, you ###### up for your team. Still, there wasn't actually much risk taken by the Onos, and little to no player skill involved in devouring an opponent and running away.
Maybe devour could work. Like, maybe it would require the Onos to steadily drain all his energy while devouring a marine (to 'digest' him). But the Onos still has so much survivability as to make any one-hit-kill weapon unreasonable, especially with the likely greater availability in NS2. You would probably also have to remodel the Onos.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
I still think UWE should try to give him some cool NEW abilities instead. Devour was annoying, NS2 shouldn't be annoying. I see why people think its a cool thing, but it is not something that REALLY adds alot to the onos gameplay-wise, its just a boring 1hit and run ability. And I don't think that hit and run should be the best way to play the onos. It should be dominant in other ways. There are alot of other ways to make people "scared" of the big alien-gorilla without copy-pasting an old ability from NS1 that was cool, but not very good gameplay wise. NS2 should not be exactly like NS1. They should be alike, but not the same. With that in mind, NS2 should focus on sovling the small errors of NS1, such as devour. I think thats the way Charlie is thinking about this.
Without Stomp, Devour would be a lot more situational. As it was you could come around a corner into a corridor, stop any marine without a jetpack from shooting you, gulp one down and leave while preventing the marines from chasing you. The Onos is supposed to be a superior lifeform, but it shouldn't be cheap like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1849770:date=Jun 3 2011, 10:02 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jun 3 2011, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think UWE should try to give him some cool NEW abilities instead. Devour was annoying, NS2 shouldn't be annoying. I see why people think its a cool thing, but it is not something that REALLY adds alot to the onos gameplay-wise, its just a boring 1hit and run ability. And I don't think that hit and run should be the best way to play the onos. It should be dominant in other ways. There are alot of other ways to make people "scared" of the big alien-gorilla without copy-pasting an old ability from NS1 that was cool, but not very good gameplay wise. NS2 should not be exactly like NS1. They should be alike, but not the same. With that in mind, NS2 should focus on sovling the small errors of NS1, such as devour. I think thats the way Charlie is thinking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Different isn't always necessarily improved. With devour you know any group of marines you attack could be essentially -1 marine w/ devour, making the onos' hailed "tank" characteristic shine. Onos don't have stomp, and some people are thinking that they shouldn't be able to devour exos. I kinda think they should, but im less partial to that than i am to devour being a part of the onos. If you can eat ha's the marine should die quicker and the onos still have to cope with a long digestion cooldown as I've suggested before.
The reason for introducing devour was to counter HAs with welders and medspam support. <i>Reintroducing devour without the ability to devour exos makes no sense at all</i>.
No. I hated the cheap tactics of the ns1 onos. hide near sens chamber, devour, run to hive. repeat. the onos is a tank and should take hits and deal massive damage and force both sides to play around onos positioning, not steal your kids when they're sleeping in their beds late at night like the boogieman. no to devour.
edit: i should read the thread before i post, hari already made all these points.
<!--quoteo(post=1849894:date=Jun 4 2011, 09:45 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Jun 4 2011, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason for introducing devour was to counter HAs with welders and medspam support. <i>Reintroducing devour without the ability to devour exos makes no sense at all</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1849895:date=Jun 4 2011, 10:03 AM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Jun 4 2011, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. I hated the cheap tactics of the ns1 onos. hide near sens chamber, devour, run to hive. repeat. the onos is a tank and should take hits and deal massive damage and force both sides to play around onos positioning, not steal your kids when they're sleeping in their beds late at night like the boogieman. no to devour.
edit: i should read the thread before i post, hari already made all these points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about buildmenu combat? If an onos has a sensory instead of dc that's a huge handicap for the onos and any half decent marine team would be able to take it out. Now if the onos has both sc/dc enough times to make this a sincere complaint of yours- I'm curious what kind of classic rounds you've been playing where movement was last chamber so often.
<!--quoteo(post=1849837:date=Jun 3 2011, 11:39 PM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jun 3 2011, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With devour you know any group of marines you attack could be essentially -1 marine w/ devour, making the onos' hailed "tank" characteristic shine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 1.04 the hitbox of the onos was the intersection between the model hitbox with a 32x32x64 axis aligned block, the size of a bounding box around a standard-sized biped in the hl-engine; that's much smaller than the size of an onos. In 2.0 the hitbox was the actual hitbox of the model itself, which is slightly bigger than the visible model. In 1.04 most bullets would miss over medium distances even if you knew where to aim because the cone of fire was quite wide on the HMG and shotty.
What I was implying was the "damage soak" characteristic of the onos wasn't contradictory to devour. One is essentially soaking up all the potential damage of a single marine already.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>*NUKED.*</b> You do not have to agree, but be polite and do not insult forum-members in your responses. -Talesin<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
We shall see how it works for balance, the sounds for digestion are already in the current build (177) so they are toying with it. With focus, the onos was a one hit unit on 1st tier marines so what's the difference weather that one hit kill is by gore or digestion. After doing a thorough re-read of this thread there are a lot of valid points and concerns but it is all speculation in theory at this point and not many but some of the concerns may become valid when it is fully implemented and balanced.
If it was done right it could actually be quite fun, the onos could grab the marine in its mouth and slowly swallow him, you would still be able to shoot as the marine until you're inside then after a short time you die, so instead of disappearing instantly and spending 10 seconds inside, you spend about 5 seconds being swallowed and 5 digesting, this would cut down the annoying wait and let you do some damage.
It could also be so there's a chance the marine will get free before going down and of course if the onos dies at any point you're free, even when being digested.
I can't get over the problematic thought of animation. In NS2 a certain quality of realism is kept, and for Onos devour I think it would extremely to difficult to create an animation that allows a marine to be swallowed whole, while maintaining a believable touch to it (unlike the Harry Houdini Onos in NS1).
I'm all for fun and varied gameplay. But I can't help feeling that it would be a very awkward and difficult challenge for any dev team.
<!--quoteo(post=1851300:date=Jun 9 2011, 10:42 PM:name=Magneto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magneto @ Jun 9 2011, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it was done right it could actually be quite fun, the onos could grab the marine in its mouth and slowly swallow him, you would still be able to shoot as the marine until you're inside then after a short time you die, so instead of disappearing instantly and spending 10 seconds inside, you spend about 5 seconds being swallowed and 5 digesting, this would cut down the annoying wait and let you do some damage.
It could also be so there's a chance the marine will get free before going down and of course if the onos dies at any point you're free, even when being digested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might not look perfect but it would be funny to see and could work reasonably well if done right, im pretty sure the onos will be able to charge and knock marines down eventually, so at that point they could be eaten, going down either head or legs first and able to shoot until inside, at least that's how i imagine it, another possibility is the onos being able to bite and hold a marine by the waist area for a short time killing him slowly, marine would be sidewards and able to shoot until he's killed, not quite the same but is another option that could be fun?
<!--quoteo(post=1851335:date=Jun 9 2011, 04:05 PM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Jun 9 2011, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want the better looking infestation and the jet packs to come before we see Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes more sense to have the features in before polishing up so we can fully understand how gameplay is going to unfold and make changes. I don't see the point of waiting to put everything in then catching up on all that time we could have been adjusting/balancing. So I'd consider both onos and jp more of a goal to implement over infestation
Comments
It is really great that you're voicing your opinion, I'm so proud of you =). But sooner or later you'll have to learn that when a question is asked generally your response addresses that question. I know, I know, inside your noggin you're trying to think of that question as a dodgy, deceptive and malicious attack on your inabilities to choose correct and meaningful words, not ironic at all considering your speech policing in other threads[1,2]! It's comfortable for you I know, but I welcome you out of your tiny bubble hidden by the veil of the internet- the vehicle by which you can be strong, handsome, hell even a space marine. Continuing, I feel for your situation, your need to envision and fabricate arguments to answer to your fullest man-potential, receiving that oh so well needed dose of self esteem.
This might come as a shock to you (but I'll forgive and forget in light of your situation) but saying at the end of each statement "broken", no matter how many times you say it, does not make it come any more true! No more than praying to a god everyday makes him exist more, or ###### everyday means you're getting laid- and yes my analogies are iron in their truth and relevance.
I do admire your effort though, but if you can scroll up 2 whole posts you'll notice I didn't ask why you didn't like devour, I asked you to define broken and <u>actually</u> relate it to the topic! Not "tell me your opinion on devour and add broken".
Sorry but no sticker next week.
[1]http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113528
[2]http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113197
there should be a way for the marine to get out himself if he is eaten, like an option to knife the guys insides hehehe
So what? So the onos goes in, devours one marine and has to retreat. This is only 'broken' if you have a whole bunch of preconceptions and assumptions about how the onos <i>should</i> play as opposed to how it <i>does</i> play in real games. Like Einstein said: Real world data trumps theory. I suggest you forget your perfect theories about how things should be and accept them as they are. Once you do this, you will see that this is not the game mechanic that is broken, it's just a consequence of rigid and inflexible thinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The NS1 Onos does one-hit-kills<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it costs 75 PRes to access this 1 hit kill ability and it has a long delay before reuse. Focus gore is 2 hit kill (except HA). It is entirely possible to avoid being devoured if you play smart. When I'm up against an onos, I imagine there is a 'devour zone' out in front of an onos that extends out 4-5 meters. If I don't want to be devoured, I stay out of that zone.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but unlike one-hit kills in any reasonably-balanced game, you do not have to aim<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A little over-exadurated, you do have to aim and for new players it's VERY confusing where to aim until they gain experience. But I'll agree the NS1 devour ability is slightly easy, but only slightly.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is no skill required, and there is no risk involved. Broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? No skill and no risk? OK, you're wandering into fantasy land here that contradicts many hundreds of hours of onos playing experience. I have no idea what your trying to say other than to give you another excuse to spam 'broken'.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it takes control away from the victim player for even longer than it should be expected to (longer than death). Broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This seems to be the most common complaint. I agree, it takes too long to be devoured. Reducing this time is important if the devour returns, but this also allows the onos to devour more marines/minute, so that's a tricky one.
<!--quoteo(post=1849265:date=May 30 2011, 10:11 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's actual risk because you can die very easily as a skulk, and there's some skill involved in getting close enough without being killed first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back to the 'no skill, no risk' point again? You are wrong on this. Perhaps it's only your perception that this is the case, because my experience is the exact opposite. Skill and risk are very subjective terms anyway, so it's not surprising there is a large variation, but I can't help thinking you are distorting your memories to provide evidence to back up your belief.
PS, please don't argue/reply. I'm just giving you some feedback in the hope that you can take it on board calmly and considerately.
well maybe not only, but most effective strategy by far. Therefor i didnt mind it, and if onos's can eat exo's in this version i wouldent care.
Well I was trying to be constructive a bit ago until your assumptive "reasoning" just made any healthy back and forth discussion a bit difficult. See your argument about credits and resources, I do agree with you on that topic but your judgements seem to always find their ground on in subjectivity. Last time I tried to make suggestions all you could offer was:
<!--quoteo(post=1847688:date=May 21 2011, 04:19 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 21 2011, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still a one-hit kill weapon. What does it fix?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is it just a 1 hit kill weapon that annoys you or now more criteria? Crae already wrote good responses to your bullet points- and I gave a suggestion last page about how to change what most people dislike about onos.
To reiterate, my suggestion is to make the marine die before the onos devour cooldown finishes. Say the devour takes 30 seconds, the marine should only be able to be saved for 7 seconds. Otherwise, the marine dies and gets ready for respawn but the onos still has to finish digesting.
To me it makes sense that a halfway digested marine would be in no position to battle (or alive lol). This way the marine doesn't have to sit in the stomach for such a long time, there is more incentive to hit the onos asap if someone is devoured, and the onos still has quite the devour cooldown to deal with.
You are right. You are perfectly right. The NS2 Onos currently does not have devour. This is a fact, you should forget your perfect theories about how things should be and accept this as it is.
Wow, and from the tone of your post I thought you were disagreeing with me! You had me fooled, buddy.
<!--quoteo(post=1849561:date=Jun 2 2011, 01:43 PM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jun 2 2011, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crae already wrote good responses to your bullet points-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They really weren't. His only argument that he paraphrased repeatedly was "THAT'S JUST HOW DEVOUR IS, SO THERE." There isn't much to say to such an irrational argument.
The only other point he made was "Onos expensive, Onos good." but I've always preached against that RTS-style dynamic for NS2. It works great in an RTS because your units don't care that something can one-hit-kill them so economic superiority leading to complete ball-busting military superiority is A-OK. But bringing anti-player superweapons into the game, as cool as they may be, isn't fun for the little guys. It worked in NS overall because you had a single resource that was shared among the team, and so there was an actual investment (by the team, represented by you) involved in going Onos (hey, there's that risk!), so if you ###### up, you ###### up for your team. Still, there wasn't actually much risk taken by the Onos, and little to no player skill involved in devouring an opponent and running away.
Maybe devour could work. Like, maybe it would require the Onos to steadily drain all his energy while devouring a marine (to 'digest' him). But the Onos still has so much survivability as to make any one-hit-kill weapon unreasonable, especially with the likely greater availability in NS2. You would probably also have to remodel the Onos.
Devour was annoying, NS2 shouldn't be annoying. I see why people think its a cool thing, but it is not something that REALLY adds alot to the onos gameplay-wise, its just a boring 1hit and run ability. And I don't think that hit and run should be the best way to play the onos. It should be dominant in other ways.
There are alot of other ways to make people "scared" of the big alien-gorilla without copy-pasting an old ability from NS1 that was cool, but not very good gameplay wise. NS2 should not be exactly like NS1. They should be alike, but not the same. With that in mind, NS2 should focus on sovling the small errors of NS1, such as devour. I think thats the way Charlie is thinking about this.
The Onos is supposed to be a superior lifeform, but it shouldn't be cheap like that.
Devour was annoying, NS2 shouldn't be annoying. I see why people think its a cool thing, but it is not something that REALLY adds alot to the onos gameplay-wise, its just a boring 1hit and run ability. And I don't think that hit and run should be the best way to play the onos. It should be dominant in other ways.
There are alot of other ways to make people "scared" of the big alien-gorilla without copy-pasting an old ability from NS1 that was cool, but not very good gameplay wise. NS2 should not be exactly like NS1. They should be alike, but not the same. With that in mind, NS2 should focus on sovling the small errors of NS1, such as devour. I think thats the way Charlie is thinking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Different isn't always necessarily improved. With devour you know any group of marines you attack could be essentially -1 marine w/ devour, making the onos' hailed "tank" characteristic shine. Onos don't have stomp, and some people are thinking that they shouldn't be able to devour exos. I kinda think they should, but im less partial to that than i am to devour being a part of the onos. If you can eat ha's the marine should die quicker and the onos still have to cope with a long digestion cooldown as I've suggested before.
edit: i should read the thread before i post, hari already made all these points.
I Agree.
edit: i should read the thread before i post, hari already made all these points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about buildmenu combat? If an onos has a sensory instead of dc that's a huge handicap for the onos and any half decent marine team would be able to take it out. Now if the onos has both sc/dc enough times to make this a sincere complaint of yours- I'm curious what kind of classic rounds you've been playing where movement was last chamber so often.
Why not just have devour later in tech.
That's backwards. Devour and one-hive onos made papier-mâché onos necessary. If you have devour you can't be allowed to be a tank, that would make you ungodly at hit and run.
In 1.04 the hitbox of the onos was the intersection between the model hitbox with a 32x32x64 axis aligned block, the size of a bounding box around a standard-sized biped in the hl-engine; that's much smaller than the size of an onos. In 2.0 the hitbox was the actual hitbox of the model itself, which is slightly bigger than the visible model. In 1.04 most bullets would miss over medium distances even if you knew where to aim because the cone of fire was quite wide on the HMG and shotty.
What I was implying was the "damage soak" characteristic of the onos wasn't contradictory to devour. One is essentially soaking up all the potential damage of a single marine already.
You know, back when they first decided it would be in, then changed their minds later.
/signed.
Well alrighty then.
Anyway, signed.
It could also be so there's a chance the marine will get free before going down and of course if the onos dies at any point you're free, even when being digested.
In NS2 a certain quality of realism is kept, and for Onos devour I think it would extremely to difficult to create an animation that allows a marine to be swallowed whole, while maintaining a believable touch to it (unlike the Harry Houdini Onos in NS1).
I'm all for fun and varied gameplay.
But I can't help feeling that it would be a very awkward and difficult challenge for any dev team.
It could also be so there's a chance the marine will get free before going down and of course if the onos dies at any point you're free, even when being digested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well..... that puts my argument to bed.
It makes more sense to have the features in before polishing up so we can fully understand how gameplay is going to unfold and make changes. I don't see the point of waiting to put everything in then catching up on all that time we could have been adjusting/balancing. So I'd consider both onos and jp more of a goal to implement over infestation