THis kind of goes away with what Charlie said in the Dev QA earlier, or one of those QA's they said that the addon was done to not have a gimped weapon up close. Wonder what made him change his mind
<!--quoteo(post=1937104:date=May 18 2012, 05:31 PM:name=Alchemda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alchemda @ May 18 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THis kind of goes away with what Charlie said in the Dev QA earlier, or one of those QA's they said that the addon was done to not have a gimped weapon up close. Wonder what made him change his mind<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he said it was an early decision, but it actually violates one of the design principles since it includes the basic lmg. i approve of this change.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1937101:date=May 18 2012, 05:15 PM:name=SeraphyGoodness)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeraphyGoodness @ May 18 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At last, Marines will have to operate in Fireteams if they want GLs (or at least, want to get to the battlefront without bitemarks in their shiny GL)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. I've been hoping for this ever since I saw the unstoppable gl attatchment rush.
I hope it's reload is per grenade, the reload sound for the original gl was soo good.
I am liking the move to this, It had a big impact in NS1 u got the gear and gl but you would think twice before rambo your way into a hive, you NEED your team mates to cover you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just had an elegant-sounding idea for maybe stopping the "tech explosion" without RFK: players don't get pres when they're dead...thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This could be very good in slowing res accumulation early game, as well as deter suicide skulk rushes. I'd love to play a couple rounds this way and see how it feels.
Going Gorge would be a legitimate saving option again. However, it would be another blow to the already fragile Lerk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just had an elegant-sounding idea for maybe stopping the "tech explosion" without RFK: players don't get pres when they're dead...thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if it's worth it. Just like RFK, it's not going to solve things alone - people are going to hit the 50 res fades within a pretty tight timing window anyway. Basically the tech explosion still happens, it just happens in slightly wider time frame - and even that's not guaranteed in any way, your lifeform players are most likely going to have relatively similar death counts anyway.
Another aspect I don't like is that the guy AFKing at your hive is going to be your highest res peak. "Stay passive to get your top fragger lifeform."
---
I think features like this can be used to fine tune the system even if I don't particularly like the 'negative' approach, but I just don't think they're enough on their own. There has to be something bigger than can then possibly be adjusted and refined with something like this.
How about respawning costs 1 res? Combining this with no res when dead you will get a bigger timeframe. The players who value their life more get much more rewards.
<!--quoteo(post=1938108:date=May 22 2012, 08:05 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ May 22 2012, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this RFK part of the big picture? Im guessing it is to reward the fps aspect of the game.
Why not have weapons/life forms cost scalable with hive numbers/rt numbers/whatever...
Too complicated?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tying to whatever is too vague at least.
Tying to hives is something I'd understand, but it just makes the tech explosion even worse or does nothing to it. You're still going to afford a bazillion lifeforms at the same moment. If that gets tied to hive, you're going to have a bazilllion lifeforms and 2nd hive abilities coming at you the same moment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just had an elegant-sounding idea for maybe stopping the "tech explosion" without RFK: players don't get pres when they're dead...thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like this concept for the reason that it encourages cowardice. Don't engage the enemy or you won't be able to buy that lifeform/weapon.
The same way RFK puts too much attention on kills. This puts too much attention on simply staying alive.
How about this .... You get a resource BONUS if you kill with a group or contribute to a kill a lifeforms or structures. (The idea would be to encourage teamwork)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just had an elegant-sounding idea for maybe stopping the "tech explosion" without RFK: players don't get pres when they're dead...thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt it would stop any "tech explosion" and it shouldn't. Debated for a while with myself now and came to the conclusion, that it can become frustrating getting punished two times for dieing.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1938116:date=May 22 2012, 10:21 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 22 2012, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tying to whatever is too vague at least.
Tying to hives is something I'd understand, but it just makes the tech explosion even worse or does nothing to it. You're still going to afford a bazillion lifeforms at the same moment. If that gets tied to hive, you're going to have a bazilllion lifeforms and 2nd hive abilities coming at you the same moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this in principle. Tying abilities to hives would be a slight improvement over the current situation, as that at least gives the marines a chance to diminish the effect of the tech explosion -- and thus can only blame themselves if they don't -- but it doesn't solve the underlying problem.
I think it's time everybody realized that the current alien resource model simply does not work with the alien comm. The only way to truly solve the problem is either: (1) Remove the alien comm and reinstate the gorge as the alien builder or (2) Completely rework the alien resource model, probably with a heavy focus on pres gains through the player's own actions (killing enemies, healing, doing damage, and so forth).
There is a third option too, I guess, that looks at the problem from the other side: That the fault isn't with the resource model, but the relative power and cost of alien lifeforms. If each lifeform was both less expensive and less powerful, they would be bought and lost at earlier and differing stages of the game (compare with marines buying guns).
i'd rather that there would be a good reason to be diverse in life forms - e.g., a symbiosis bonus that would be too attractive for all to go fade / onos at the same time. this is like a positive version of having a maintenance cost for multiple of the same life form ie., multiple of higher lifeforms slows res flow.
useful pres sink/consumables might help as well if they were attractive enough to use.
@fana i think it would be impossible to scale alien lifeforms down via res cost/power reduction, because their extra mobility means that at any moment marines can face an uncounterable rush vs their expansions the moment they try to push, yet the alien lifeforms would be too weak to break the marine turtle at main.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1938242:date=May 22 2012, 09:21 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ May 22 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@fana i think it would be impossible to scale alien lifeforms down via res cost/power reduction, because their extra mobility means that at any moment marines can face an uncounterable rush vs their expansions the moment they try to push, yet the alien lifeforms would be too weak to break the marine turtle at main.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is certainly a legitimate concern. The only "for sure" solution is to revert to the NS1 gorge, since we already know from experience that it works with the resource model. The two other solutions I proposed are both theoretical.
couldn't we keep the necessary changes (alien comm in charge of all strategic/upgrade decisions) paired with the old gorge building mechanics? So in effect, instead of requiring a gorge to build comm-placed structures faster, requiring comms to interact with gorge-placed structures (that cost p-res) to mature/speed their growth and determine what the team's upgrade path is. t-res would be spent only on upgrades, drifters, and cysts. this would keep the timing of upgrades in varying game sizes, allow gorges to be a legitimate builder class while adding a p-res sink for the alien team. it would add a whole lot of extra considerations to alien gameplay - how many gorges per team, whether they perma-gorge, etc etc. the only problem would be 4 skulks vs 5 marines in the field.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
It could be possible, but it seems to me that trying to combine the ns1 gorge with the ns2 alien comm will only lead to both classes (gorge and comm) being lackluster. You either have to go all the way (entirely new resource system) or none of the way (axe alien comm).
<!--quoteo(post=1938240:date=May 22 2012, 03:19 PM:name=jbaker8935)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jbaker8935 @ May 22 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dont really like the no pres if dying.
i'd rather that there would be a good reason to be diverse in life forms - e.g., a symbiosis bonus that would be too attractive for all to go fade / onos at the same time. this is like a positive version of having a maintenance cost for multiple of the same life form ie., multiple of higher lifeforms slows res flow.
useful pres sink/consumables might help as well if they were attractive enough to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an artificial bonus that shouldn't be needed. Each class should be useful/fun enough to play on its own, which is NOT the case right now.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->couldn't we keep the necessary changes (alien comm in charge of all strategic/upgrade decisions) paired with the old gorge building mechanics? So in effect, instead of requiring a gorge to build comm-placed structures faster, requiring comms to interact with gorge-placed structures (that cost p-res) to mature/speed their growth and determine what the team's upgrade path is. t-res would be spent only on upgrades, drifters, and cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except then the alien comm would be EXTREMELY boring. A commander with nothing to do except place drifters and upgrade tech? Eew.
Unless the alien comm had an entire micromanagement game involving drifters and a spy network thing... but that's not RTS anymore. The only thing left is the management of chambers. While moving whips IS really fun and a challenge for marines, there's nothing at all that the alien commander is needed for.
Simply put, cmon UWE, embrace the asymmetry! Ditch the alien comm, ditch the limitation of tech nodes for marine expansion.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
I don't like to see players punished for dying either. It only bogs the game speed down.
Wouldn't it better to have a small amount of Res per Kill instead? Its forms tested so far has been quite dramatic (random 1-3 res). What if it is reduced to a consistent 1 res per kill? Perhaps there could even be a time constraint added (eg RFK is only rewarded once every 8 seconds).
The symbiosis bonus idea probably won't be necessary once third tier abilities come in. Hopefully each lifeform's third-tier will be unique enough where the alien team would have to field one of each lifeform at a battle for maximum advantage.
Comments
he said it was an early decision, but it actually violates one of the design principles since it includes the basic lmg. i approve of this change.
This. I've been hoping for this ever since I saw the unstoppable gl attatchment rush.
I hope it's reload is per grenade, the reload sound for the original gl was soo good.
This could be very good in slowing res accumulation early game, as well as deter suicide skulk rushes. I'd love to play a couple rounds this way and see how it feels.
Going Gorge would be a legitimate saving option again. However, it would be another blow to the already fragile Lerk.
F****** brilliant idea, it makes people value their life.
I'm not sure if it's worth it. Just like RFK, it's not going to solve things alone - people are going to hit the 50 res fades within a pretty tight timing window anyway. Basically the tech explosion still happens, it just happens in slightly wider time frame - and even that's not guaranteed in any way, your lifeform players are most likely going to have relatively similar death counts anyway.
Another aspect I don't like is that the guy AFKing at your hive is going to be your highest res peak. "Stay passive to get your top fragger lifeform."
---
I think features like this can be used to fine tune the system even if I don't particularly like the 'negative' approach, but I just don't think they're enough on their own. There has to be something bigger than can then possibly be adjusted and refined with something like this.
Combining this with no res when dead you will get a bigger timeframe. The players who value their life more get much more rewards.
Why not have weapons/life forms cost scalable with hive numbers/rt numbers/whatever...
Too complicated?
Why not have weapons/life forms cost scalable with hive numbers/rt numbers/whatever...
Too complicated?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tying to whatever is too vague at least.
Tying to hives is something I'd understand, but it just makes the tech explosion even worse or does nothing to it. You're still going to afford a bazillion lifeforms at the same moment. If that gets tied to hive, you're going to have a bazilllion lifeforms and 2nd hive abilities coming at you the same moment.
Not sure on that, depends when it's all working (mostly) bug free.
I don't like this concept for the reason that it encourages cowardice.
Don't engage the enemy or you won't be able to buy that lifeform/weapon.
The same way RFK puts too much attention on kills.
This puts too much attention on simply staying alive.
How about this ....
You get a resource BONUS if you kill with a group or contribute to a kill a lifeforms or structures.
(The idea would be to encourage teamwork)
I doubt it would stop any "tech explosion" and it shouldn't. Debated for a while with myself now and came to the conclusion, that it can become frustrating getting punished two times for dieing.
Tying to hives is something I'd understand, but it just makes the tech explosion even worse or does nothing to it. You're still going to afford a bazillion lifeforms at the same moment. If that gets tied to hive, you're going to have a bazilllion lifeforms and 2nd hive abilities coming at you the same moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this in principle. Tying abilities to hives would be a slight improvement over the current situation, as that at least gives the marines a chance to diminish the effect of the tech explosion -- and thus can only blame themselves if they don't -- but it doesn't solve the underlying problem.
I think it's time everybody realized that the current alien resource model simply does not work with the alien comm. The only way to truly solve the problem is either: (1) Remove the alien comm and reinstate the gorge as the alien builder or (2) Completely rework the alien resource model, probably with a heavy focus on pres gains through the player's own actions (killing enemies, healing, doing damage, and so forth).
There is a third option too, I guess, that looks at the problem from the other side: That the fault isn't with the resource model, but the relative power and cost of alien lifeforms. If each lifeform was both less expensive and less powerful, they would be bought and lost at earlier and differing stages of the game (compare with marines buying guns).
i'd rather that there would be a good reason to be diverse in life forms - e.g., a symbiosis bonus that would be too attractive for all to go fade / onos at the same time. this is like a positive version of having a maintenance cost for multiple of the same life form ie., multiple of higher lifeforms slows res flow.
useful pres sink/consumables might help as well if they were attractive enough to use.
That is certainly a legitimate concern. The only "for sure" solution is to revert to the NS1 gorge, since we already know from experience that it works with the resource model. The two other solutions I proposed are both theoretical.
i'd rather that there would be a good reason to be diverse in life forms - e.g., a symbiosis bonus that would be too attractive for all to go fade / onos at the same time. this is like a positive version of having a maintenance cost for multiple of the same life form ie., multiple of higher lifeforms slows res flow.
useful pres sink/consumables might help as well if they were attractive enough to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an artificial bonus that shouldn't be needed. Each class should be useful/fun enough to play on its own, which is NOT the case right now.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->couldn't we keep the necessary changes (alien comm in charge of all strategic/upgrade decisions) paired with the old gorge building mechanics? So in effect, instead of requiring a gorge to build comm-placed structures faster, requiring comms to interact with gorge-placed structures (that cost p-res) to mature/speed their growth and determine what the team's upgrade path is. t-res would be spent only on upgrades, drifters, and cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except then the alien comm would be EXTREMELY boring. A commander with nothing to do except place drifters and upgrade tech? Eew.
Unless the alien comm had an entire micromanagement game involving drifters and a spy network thing... but that's not RTS anymore. The only thing left is the management of chambers. While moving whips IS really fun and a challenge for marines, there's nothing at all that the alien commander is needed for.
Simply put, cmon UWE, embrace the asymmetry! Ditch the alien comm, ditch the limitation of tech nodes for marine expansion.
Wouldn't it better to have a small amount of Res per Kill instead? Its forms tested so far has been quite dramatic (random 1-3 res).
What if it is reduced to a consistent 1 res per kill? Perhaps there could even be a time constraint added (eg RFK is only rewarded once every 8 seconds).
I don't think RFK as the only form of pres income is the answer, though (but I'm not sure if anyone is suggesting this)
A cornerstone of any game that isn't a silly mess of comeback mechanics