<!--quoteo(post=1964186:date=Aug 17 2012, 09:22 AM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 17 2012, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also what is a UI? I keep seeing the term thrown about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface" target="_blank">User Interface</a>
Suppose this change is good late game. Instead of spamming whips I can start spamming onos eggs to end the game quick.
Edit: Come to think of it though, I am unsure about this change. Makes dropping welders near power nodes very unappealing as commander. Being set back 10 pres was nothing, 10 tres is alot.
<!--quoteo(post=1964209:date=Aug 16 2012, 05:50 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Aug 16 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, what happened to the "Progress" tracker? It was disabled for a few weeks and now it's nowhere to be found at all. (Was its time due?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It broke like a month ago or so and with the ship date fast approaching they haven't had time to repair it. So, they just removed the link to it until there is time to band-aid it.
<!--quoteo(post=1964195:date=Aug 16 2012, 04:29 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Aug 16 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: Come to think of it though, I am unsure about this change. Makes dropping welders near power nodes very unappealing as commander. Being set back 10 pres was nothing, 10 tres is alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Welders cost 5 pres. But I still agree. I'm not so sure about the change, because if they increase tres to compensate we'll have the problem where early games end too fast and late game is essentially infinite resources, same as it was a few patches ago when resource rates got bumped up. I'm not sure what problem the change is trying to fix.
I think the new commander res going into the team pool makes perfect sense. Instead of having personal res that's dedicated towards nothing but weapon drops, the commander is able to make choices with what to do with it.
For example, your team may be doing a great job on their own without comm dropping welders left and right - means you get more res for tech now.
On the other hand, want to do a shotgun rush early game? You got it!
You can even play the same way as we have been, allocating a little res for drops and more for tech. We're not losing anything - all the costs and rates seem to be the same. We get the same amount of res, but now we can spend ALL of it however we want instead of being limited into two pools.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Probably should reduce the amount of p.res flow to give commander dropped items and lifeforms some value. In ns1, a shotgun had the same worth as an armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1964259:date=Aug 16 2012, 09:13 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 16 2012, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably should reduce the amount of p.res flow to give commander dropped items and lifeforms some value. In ns1, a shotgun had the same worth as an armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Came here to post this. If pres income is kept the same we are going to see even more lifeform/tech out on the field than we do now. As it stands we already have full teams of jetpacks or fades. Very careful balance considerations need to be made here.
<!--quoteo(post=1964120:date=Aug 16 2012, 11:18 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Aug 16 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think he meant only the marine commander. the alien commander will hopefully still gain Pres. otherwise Im pretty sure I'll never command aliens again.
I want to be onos at the end mostly because being an alien commander full time bores the crap out of me...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would improve aliens a lot to be honest. More strategic options early game, including life form rushes, as well as a valid way of ending stalemates in which aliens have hundreds of team res and nothing to spend it on.
<!--quoteo(post=1964403:date=Aug 17 2012, 10:37 AM:name=@Korpisoturi@)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (@Korpisoturi@ @ Aug 17 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if the commander jumps out of chair or gets ejected, will he get the pres he had when he first jumped in (or has it grown)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While it might be nice for the player, this would actually encourage switching comms midgame. I would prefer if the comm doesn't get any pRes while in the chair.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going over usability notes from GamesCom. Great reminders of how people learn and how we are far too close to our own game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously there's nothing wrong with making the game accessible and so on, and Natural Selection 2 is definitely a massive challenge for new players to get into, but honestly Natural Selection was the same way and that didn't make the game any worse. Usability is really only an issue in terms of grabbing more people: it doesn't make the game any more fun for people who know what they're doing, which is, eventually, everyone who keeps playing. With limited dev effort available, usability seems like something to focus on much later, like before a free weekend or something, rather than at the expense of almost anything else, like polish. A very polished game will draw people in even if they get frustrated with how difficult it is to learn, and I think that's okay, because they can always come back to it later or watch YouTube help videos or something. A very usable but not as polished game won't attract as many people just based on trailers/gameplay videos alone, because nobody cares how easy something is to learn if they aren't ensnared by the pretty pictures.
Also I think the new highlighted CC/hive is a good example of the wrong way to do usability: Natural Selection 2 is <b>NOT</b> a game about rushing the hive or the CC constantly, and UI tweaks like making the hive or the CC really stand out only serve to deceive new players about what's important. It would be a bit like making the enemy home spawns light up in Battlefield 3 instead of making the capture points light up. Attacking those home points is usually futile. Maybe NS2 should focus more on directing new players to res nodes or to commander waypoints. Maybe the commander should get to drop multiple "attack" or "defend" waypoints so that players have a choice of objectives other than "rush the hive and die" which the current UI suggests.
I think you are worried that they might oversimplify the game to attract new players, but that's not really a problem I see. The things that hinder new players the most are not things that make the game harder, they are things that make the game less accessible. They don't have to dumb down NS2 to make it easier to get into. A few changes in the GUI layout for example can go a long way. As does solving the power node conundrum.
The hive/CC indicators are an interesting example. You fear they encourage rushing the hive/CC. But to a new player it's nothing but a sign towards the general direction of where the enemy (and thus the fun) is. As they play more they will learn the finer details and develop more complex strategies on their own. And then they can turn off the indicator. But the first couple of times they play the indicators will help them get to where the action is. Now that I think about it perhaps it should work a bit like the other help messages. Let's say the first 5 games they play will have the indicators, and after that they disappear. That way new players get a hint where to go, and everyone else isn't going to be bothered by them.
nahhh.. I stand closer to TychoCelchuuu on this issue of accessibility.
..and I'll use the hive/cc indicators to illustrate my point- Currently, the indicators seem to be a place holder at the current moment as they are always on, unrefined, new. Any designer will know that often your first pass will need a second, third, maybe fourth or fifth before it is a solid concept. The indicators seem to address a notion of accessibility, but(to our public knowledge and almost admittedly officially via Twitter) UWE has done little work to understand how new players(from NS1, new to FPS genre or otherwise) get bombarded with information.
I'm working on doing this on my spare time and use it for my design studies course, but what I learn from researching this is the maps present a steep learning curve.<b> There is a huge relationship between the map/environment you play in and the game you work at</b>. Players learn in stages, and UWE will do well to understand these steps and implement mechanics to optimize this learning process..
Seriously, what we learn on our own time goes a long way rather than a developer giving players crutches and having them learn to rely on them- over time you foster players who believe such "game mechanic crutches" are the norm.
Nowhere in my post did I say accessibility meant dumbing down the game or making things simpler. I just said that it's not a good focus for dev resources, because an unintuitive game is something people can learn over time but an unpolished game is one they won't want to buy because it doesn't look as good in trailers.
Tycho is 100% correct on the issue regarding the HUD indicators, unfortunately the devs don't seem to be swayed by these arguments.
Although I'm not too sure why you think the game will suffer from lack of polish as a result. Part of the polish phase of which the game is currently undergoing includes overhauling elements to make them a little clearer. My argument, and I believe Tycho's is that the current indicators are misleading at best in their efforts to teach new players the ropes.
<!--quoteo(post=1964556:date=Aug 17 2012, 08:43 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Aug 17 2012, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tycho is 100% correct on the issue regarding the HUD indicators, unfortunately the devs don't seem to be swayed by these arguments.
Although I'm not too sure why you think the game will suffer from lack of polish as a result. Part of the polish phase of which the game is currently undergoing includes overhauling elements to make them a little clearer. My argument, and I believe Tycho's is that the current indicators are misleading at best in their efforts to teach new players the ropes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right that "polish" isn't a great word. What I really mean is "anything other than making the game accessible to people who don't understand it." UWE only has a limited amount of time to work on NS2, and out of all the dozens of things they could be doing, "making it easier for people to learn NS2" should be low on the list, I think. This is for a few reasons:
1) A lot of the best "how to play" stuff comes from people learning from other players in-game, or from videos on YouTube that people (like me!) end up making when the game comes out. The devs don't need to solve the problem on their own.
2) Making players learn how to play something as horrendously complex as Natural Selection 2 through something as horrendously difficult to get right as the user interface is a HUGE pain. Teaching people how to play a game via little hints that pop up, icons that flash, etc. is very inefficient for a game like NS2 because there's just SO MUCH to deal with. Instead, it makes more sense to make the game readable on its own (How do I know which room is powered? As a Khaamander, where are my upgrade buildings and how much health do they have? etc.), because if THIS is well done, then once the player learns what these things mean, they will understand forever. Make the game easy to read, but don't try to take on the difficult task of teaching people what they should be reading.
3) Almost everything else is more important. Yes, NS2 is very very hard to learn. Yes, that turns a lot of people off. But frankly, NS2 is not Call of Duty or Battlefield 3. It's not a simple game. It's ALWAYS going to be complex. The complexity is a huge part of what makes it fun, in fact! Which means that people are either drawn to the complexity, and they learn the complexity, or they give up and come back later (or never). Either way, though, all that effort that goes into teaching people via an intuitive UI and so on is wasted once they've learned the game. None of us need an introduction to NS. We all know how to play. Once NS2 is like that, none of us will need introductions to NS2. Dev resources can be much better spent on things that give the game lasting appeal, not shiny stuff to draw people in.
ASIDE from all this, though, I think I'm right (and I'm glad Supernorn thinks I'm right and I've seen tons of other people on this forum also agree) about the glowing hives/CCs. Even if you DISAGREE with everything I say and think that making the game very easy for new people to pick up is important, glowing hives/CCs doesn't do this at all. It just highlights an area of the map that most people should STAY AWAY from unless their commander says to attack there, or unless teammates attack there, and therefore more work should be done getting people to listen to commanders or stick near teammates (more options for commanders to set waypoints, etc, or icons that point you to teammates, etc) rather than the CC/hive stuff.
I think point 2 is especially insightful. Being able to, as a comm, instantly find any buildings you've placed (especially those damned spurs, always lose them) is far more important than trying to teach you <i>why</i> or <i>when</i> you should build them.
Don't try to <i>teach</i> the game through the UI (well, aside from some really basic newbie tips perhaps), instead just efficiently display the information a player needs to <i>learn</i> the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1964571:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:22 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 17 2012, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's to hoping that the Devs will listen to the community again on this matter. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1964560:date=Aug 17 2012, 07:15 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Aug 17 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It just highlights an area of the map that most people should STAY AWAY from unless their commander says to attack there, or unless teammates attack there, and therefore more work should be done getting people to listen to commanders or stick near teammates (more options for commanders to set waypoints, etc, or icons that point you to teammates, etc) rather than the CC/hive stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT! Well said, and i don't think there are many people out there that would disagree. (after a gander at the thread started about who dislikes it) NS2 needs to communicate more to the new player, but the current mechanic is not accomplishing this goal.
<!--quoteo(post=1964553:date=Aug 17 2012, 06:34 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Aug 17 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->an unintuitive game is something people can learn over time but an unpolished game is one they won't want to buy because it doesn't look as good in trailers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any game can be made to look good in trailers; just get the good camera angles and show off your dramatic scenes. It especially helps when you stage them. An unintuitive game is a game that people will buy, try, get frustrated with, quit playing after an hour or two, and then tell their friends they shouldn't buy it. A "steep learning curve" is detrimental to new players sticking with the game for any length of time, and so detrimental to both sales and long-term prospects for that game.
For example, right now we've got a huge flood of new players. A lot of them are playing skulks and wondering why they're dying all the time and then having to wait half a minute to respawn. Walljumping to move quickly forwards and "three per wave" spawning are both completely unintuitive AND not explained anywhere in the game. I'm sure it's frustrating to them to have to learn it from someone online, or worse, never learn about it at all. Making some of the "basic" gameplay mechanics more accessible is, to me, crucial to the success of the game, especially if UWE are going to insist on releasing it in the next couple of months rather than pushing it back to Halloween.
<!--quoteo(post=1964584:date=Aug 18 2012, 06:19 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 18 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QFT! Well said, and i don't think there are many people out there that would disagree. (after a gander at the thread started about who dislikes it) NS2 needs to communicate more to the new player, but the current mechanic is not accomplishing this goal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here's one who disagrees. Whether or not people should stay away from that area is part of developing a strategy, like someone said something that should not be taught through the UI. But new players should be informed that such an area exist, and where it is, and yes, the first couple of times this means they will probably walk towards it, but guess what that's the learning experience. We're talking about people who have played less than 5 rounds of NS. They literally have no clue about anything other than that they should probably kill enemies. That's why I said the icons should be there for new players but fade out forever after a couple of rounds.
<!--quoteo(post=1964638:date=Aug 18 2012, 11:53 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Aug 18 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why I said the icons should be there for new players but fade out forever after a couple of rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not completely sure about the rest of the UI, but I do think any kind of inconsistent information is extremely frustrating for a player who understands games quite a bit in general and is trying to learn a new game. If there's going to be some newbie highlighting in HUD, it has to be absolutely clear it's there only temporarily.
From what I can tell, here are the two main arguments against the hive and CC indicators 1) Players are not stupid and do not need to be blatantly shown their locations. Due to their inherent level of intelligence, they will be able to use the minimap and see for themselves from that perspective, and therefore it is not needed. 2) Players are morons and will continuously run to their deaths as they try and obtain the flashy red shiny indicator on their screen, as a moth to the flame.
<!--quoteo(post=1964652:date=Aug 18 2012, 07:32 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I can tell, here are the two main arguments against the hive and CC indicators 1) Players are not stupid and do not need to be blatantly shown their locations. Due to their inherent level of intelligence, they will be able to use the minimap and see for themselves from that perspective, and therefore it is not needed. 2) Players are morons and will continuously run to their deaths as they try and obtain the flashy red shiny indicator on their screen, as a moth to the flame.
Wow you guys really are convincing!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well i mean that does just about cover all the bases...
Comments
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface" target="_blank">User Interface</a>
Edit: Come to think of it though, I am unsure about this change. Makes dropping welders near power nodes very unappealing as commander. Being set back 10 pres was nothing, 10 tres is alot.
It broke like a month ago or so and with the ship date fast approaching they haven't had time to repair it. So, they just removed the link to it until there is time to band-aid it.
Welders cost 5 pres. But I still agree. I'm not so sure about the change, because if they increase tres to compensate we'll have the problem where early games end too fast and late game is essentially infinite resources, same as it was a few patches ago when resource rates got bumped up. I'm not sure what problem the change is trying to fix.
For example, your team may be doing a great job on their own without comm dropping welders left and right - means you get more res for tech now.
On the other hand, want to do a shotgun rush early game? You got it!
You can even play the same way as we have been, allocating a little res for drops and more for tech. We're not losing anything - all the costs and rates seem to be the same. We get the same amount of res, but now we can spend ALL of it however we want instead of being limited into two pools.
Came here to post this. If pres income is kept the same we are going to see even more lifeform/tech out on the field than we do now. As it stands we already have full teams of jetpacks or fades. Very careful balance considerations need to be made here.
I want to be onos at the end mostly because being an alien commander full time bores the crap out of me...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would improve aliens a lot to be honest. More strategic options early game, including life form rushes, as well as a valid way of ending stalemates in which aliens have hundreds of team res and nothing to spend it on.
While it might be nice for the player, this would actually encourage switching comms midgame. I would prefer if the comm doesn't get any pRes while in the chair.
Obviously there's nothing wrong with making the game accessible and so on, and Natural Selection 2 is definitely a massive challenge for new players to get into, but honestly Natural Selection was the same way and that didn't make the game any worse. Usability is really only an issue in terms of grabbing more people: it doesn't make the game any more fun for people who know what they're doing, which is, eventually, everyone who keeps playing. With limited dev effort available, usability seems like something to focus on much later, like before a free weekend or something, rather than at the expense of almost anything else, like polish. A very polished game will draw people in even if they get frustrated with how difficult it is to learn, and I think that's okay, because they can always come back to it later or watch YouTube help videos or something. A very usable but not as polished game won't attract as many people just based on trailers/gameplay videos alone, because nobody cares how easy something is to learn if they aren't ensnared by the pretty pictures.
Also I think the new highlighted CC/hive is a good example of the wrong way to do usability: Natural Selection 2 is <b>NOT</b> a game about rushing the hive or the CC constantly, and UI tweaks like making the hive or the CC really stand out only serve to deceive new players about what's important. It would be a bit like making the enemy home spawns light up in Battlefield 3 instead of making the capture points light up. Attacking those home points is usually futile. Maybe NS2 should focus more on directing new players to res nodes or to commander waypoints. Maybe the commander should get to drop multiple "attack" or "defend" waypoints so that players have a choice of objectives other than "rush the hive and die" which the current UI suggests.
The hive/CC indicators are an interesting example. You fear they encourage rushing the hive/CC. But to a new player it's nothing but a sign towards the general direction of where the enemy (and thus the fun) is. As they play more they will learn the finer details and develop more complex strategies on their own. And then they can turn off the indicator. But the first couple of times they play the indicators will help them get to where the action is. Now that I think about it perhaps it should work a bit like the other help messages. Let's say the first 5 games they play will have the indicators, and after that they disappear. That way new players get a hint where to go, and everyone else isn't going to be bothered by them.
..and I'll use the hive/cc indicators to illustrate my point- Currently, the indicators seem to be a place holder at the current moment as they are always on, unrefined, new. Any designer will know that often your first pass will need a second, third, maybe fourth or fifth before it is a solid concept. The indicators seem to address a notion of accessibility, but(to our public knowledge and almost admittedly officially via Twitter) UWE has done little work to understand how new players(from NS1, new to FPS genre or otherwise) get bombarded with information.
I'm working on doing this on my spare time and use it for my design studies course, but what I learn from researching this is the maps present a steep learning curve.<b> There is a huge relationship between the map/environment you play in and the game you work at</b>. Players learn in stages, and UWE will do well to understand these steps and implement mechanics to optimize this learning process..
Seriously, what we learn on our own time goes a long way rather than a developer giving players crutches and having them learn to rely on them- over time you foster players who believe such "game mechanic crutches" are the norm.
hopefully the GT video will reach a really wide audience (although judging by most of the comments on their other videos they are 10 yo brats....).
JEEEEEZZZzZZZZ!
Although I'm not too sure why you think the game will suffer from lack of polish as a result. Part of the polish phase of which the game is currently undergoing includes overhauling elements to make them a little clearer. My argument, and I believe Tycho's is that the current indicators are misleading at best in their efforts to teach new players the ropes.
Although I'm not too sure why you think the game will suffer from lack of polish as a result. Part of the polish phase of which the game is currently undergoing includes overhauling elements to make them a little clearer. My argument, and I believe Tycho's is that the current indicators are misleading at best in their efforts to teach new players the ropes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right that "polish" isn't a great word. What I really mean is "anything other than making the game accessible to people who don't understand it." UWE only has a limited amount of time to work on NS2, and out of all the dozens of things they could be doing, "making it easier for people to learn NS2" should be low on the list, I think. This is for a few reasons:
1) A lot of the best "how to play" stuff comes from people learning from other players in-game, or from videos on YouTube that people (like me!) end up making when the game comes out. The devs don't need to solve the problem on their own.
2) Making players learn how to play something as horrendously complex as Natural Selection 2 through something as horrendously difficult to get right as the user interface is a HUGE pain. Teaching people how to play a game via little hints that pop up, icons that flash, etc. is very inefficient for a game like NS2 because there's just SO MUCH to deal with. Instead, it makes more sense to make the game readable on its own (How do I know which room is powered? As a Khaamander, where are my upgrade buildings and how much health do they have? etc.), because if THIS is well done, then once the player learns what these things mean, they will understand forever. Make the game easy to read, but don't try to take on the difficult task of teaching people what they should be reading.
3) Almost everything else is more important. Yes, NS2 is very very hard to learn. Yes, that turns a lot of people off. But frankly, NS2 is not Call of Duty or Battlefield 3. It's not a simple game. It's ALWAYS going to be complex. The complexity is a huge part of what makes it fun, in fact! Which means that people are either drawn to the complexity, and they learn the complexity, or they give up and come back later (or never). Either way, though, all that effort that goes into teaching people via an intuitive UI and so on is wasted once they've learned the game. None of us need an introduction to NS. We all know how to play. Once NS2 is like that, none of us will need introductions to NS2. Dev resources can be much better spent on things that give the game lasting appeal, not shiny stuff to draw people in.
ASIDE from all this, though, I think I'm right (and I'm glad Supernorn thinks I'm right and I've seen tons of other people on this forum also agree) about the glowing hives/CCs. Even if you DISAGREE with everything I say and think that making the game very easy for new people to pick up is important, glowing hives/CCs doesn't do this at all. It just highlights an area of the map that most people should STAY AWAY from unless their commander says to attack there, or unless teammates attack there, and therefore more work should be done getting people to listen to commanders or stick near teammates (more options for commanders to set waypoints, etc, or icons that point you to teammates, etc) rather than the CC/hive stuff.
Don't try to <i>teach</i> the game through the UI (well, aside from some really basic newbie tips perhaps), instead just efficiently display the information a player needs to <i>learn</i> the game.
yeah, probably not :\
QFT!
Well said, and i don't think there are many people out there that would disagree. (after a gander at the thread started about who dislikes it)
NS2 needs to communicate more to the new player, but the current mechanic is not accomplishing this goal.
Any game can be made to look good in trailers; just get the good camera angles and show off your dramatic scenes. It especially helps when you stage them. An unintuitive game is a game that people will buy, try, get frustrated with, quit playing after an hour or two, and then tell their friends they shouldn't buy it. A "steep learning curve" is detrimental to new players sticking with the game for any length of time, and so detrimental to both sales and long-term prospects for that game.
For example, right now we've got a huge flood of new players. A lot of them are playing skulks and wondering why they're dying all the time and then having to wait half a minute to respawn. Walljumping to move quickly forwards and "three per wave" spawning are both completely unintuitive AND not explained anywhere in the game. I'm sure it's frustrating to them to have to learn it from someone online, or worse, never learn about it at all. Making some of the "basic" gameplay mechanics more accessible is, to me, crucial to the success of the game, especially if UWE are going to insist on releasing it in the next couple of months rather than pushing it back to Halloween.
Well said, and i don't think there are many people out there that would disagree. (after a gander at the thread started about who dislikes it)
NS2 needs to communicate more to the new player, but the current mechanic is not accomplishing this goal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here's one who disagrees. Whether or not people should stay away from that area is part of developing a strategy, like someone said something that should not be taught through the UI. But new players should be informed that such an area exist, and where it is, and yes, the first couple of times this means they will probably walk towards it, but guess what that's the learning experience. We're talking about people who have played less than 5 rounds of NS. They literally have no clue about anything other than that they should probably kill enemies. That's why I said the icons should be there for new players but fade out forever after a couple of rounds.
I'm not completely sure about the rest of the UI, but I do think any kind of inconsistent information is extremely frustrating for a player who understands games quite a bit in general and is trying to learn a new game. If there's going to be some newbie highlighting in HUD, it has to be absolutely clear it's there only temporarily.
1) Players are not stupid and do not need to be blatantly shown their locations. Due to their inherent level of intelligence, they will be able to use the minimap and see for themselves from that perspective, and therefore it is not needed.
2) Players are morons and will continuously run to their deaths as they try and obtain the flashy red shiny indicator on their screen, as a moth to the flame.
Wow you guys really are convincing!
1) Players are not stupid and do not need to be blatantly shown their locations. Due to their inherent level of intelligence, they will be able to use the minimap and see for themselves from that perspective, and therefore it is not needed.
2) Players are morons and will continuously run to their deaths as they try and obtain the flashy red shiny indicator on their screen, as a moth to the flame.
Wow you guys really are convincing!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well i mean that does just about cover all the bases...