Cerberi

Vladimir Van Vodka · October 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 8 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Really good idea. +1
But I would give it to the gorge.</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BootyTime @ Oct 23 2012, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the gorge should have it, but def a great idea and needs to be added!</div>

I keep getting this, I already stated my stance on this. <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(quote of statement below)</span>

I don't mind suggestions for suggestions inside suggestions <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(Queue Inception Theme)</span>, quite frankly I love to hear them, they can really help this idea out, <i>but nobody has given me a reason for giving this ability to the gorge instead of the Commander.</i> other then the usual "Gorge isn't fun yet" So it's more of a blind opinion then a constructive criticism or suggestion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Aug 10 2012, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">This entire suggestion is based around the premise that the Alien Commander should have more ways to shape the environment to the aliens advantage, Like a "Cosmic Gardener" as stated in the official design documents.
(which sadly have not been updated it's been a long time...)

Frankly, with the implementation of Clogs, I'm not sure anymore if it should only be tied to the Alien Commander, but <i>that's</i> a whole other idea in itself, I tried creating theoretic statistics and mechanisms that could work with the Alien Commander.
(the whole Tres cost thing, Omnipresent spawning of the Cerberi, etc.)
[...]
Cerberi should be able to grow anywhere on infestation, at any time. A marine should be able to run through a room, and as he passes it, the Alien Commander starts growing a Cerberi where he passes, missing him because it takes around 4-6 seconds to grow. Then as the marine eventually sees an obvious threat inbound, he backpedals into the Cerberus, sealing his fate.
<span style="color:#FFFF00">I just personally prefer the idea of marines having to keep constant vigilance on the infestation on which they walk, since it itself is alive and threatening.</span> <span style="color:#FF0000">instead of having to look out for Gorges and Gorge nests specifically.</span></span>
[...]</div>

Also:
<span style="color:#FF0000">I take back all my criticisms about Bone Wall</span>, seems that my opinions of it where based on the original first implementations <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(which where actually really frustrating)</span>, I have seen it being used multiple times so far in it's newest incarnation, even used it myself, all this to say Cerberi should never replace it, Bone Wall is in a field of it's own, and does have it's uses <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(altho I think it should be buffed damage resistance wise and possibly expire less quickly)</span>.

And I'm not saying the Cerberus should not be implemented. Obviously both Commander abilities could be used very well simultaneously.

With this in mind, and in conjunction with my quote above;
I have given it deeper thought, and I came to a realization that Cerberi are a great analogy not only to marine mines, but also to Commander Medpack and Ammunition drops.

-<span style="color:#FFFF00"><b>Both</b> Aliens and Marines have a structure that can heal.</span>
-<span style="color:#00FF00">Marines have a Commander that can Heal</span>, <span style="color:#FF0000">Aliens don't.</span>
-<span style="color:#00FF00">Aliens have a unit that can heal.</span> <span style="color:#FF0000">Marines don't.</span> <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(I don't consider welders because they only repair armor)</span>

-<span style="color:#00FF00">Marines have a unit that can drop traps (mines)</span>, <span style="color:#FF0000">Aliens don't.</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Theoretically:</span>
-<span style="color:#00FF00">Aliens have a Commander that can drop traps (Cerberi)</span>,<span style="color:#FF0000"> Marines don't.</span>

Cerberi could be dropped at any time, anywhere on infestation, similar to medpacks and ammopacks for marines. except these little gifts give pedicures instead of health or ammo.

I think the Alien commander should shape the environment to the alien's advantage instead of affecting individual units <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(ex: Bone Wall, enzymes, Drifter Spying, Cyst Rupture, hopefully eventually Cerberi...)</span> It seems to opposite of what the Marine commander does with medpacks, ammopacks, weapon drops and macs <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(unless you consider a room flooded with medpacks an advantageous environment, I won't argue.)</span> affecting individual players directly.

This also encompasses my argument as to why it should be for the commander instead of gorge.
Don't fret boyo, I love the Gorge too, he has webs and probably more surprises incoming post 1.0!

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Infestation should be alive. <i>It should be out to get you.</i></span>

PsympleJester · October 2012

Vladimir Van Vodka · October 2012

Hahaha, that's great!
Mind If I add it to the OP and my signature?

PsympleJester · October 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 27 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hahaha, that's great!
Mind If I add it to the OP and my signature?</div>

Sure its just a colour correction of the other guys work so... xD
I just moved some sliders... :D

Good luck with the idea btw I really like it.

HeavenOrHell · October 2012

Imo this seems like a fantastic idea

Giving it to the Alien Khammander makes more sense because giving it to Gorges will just make them sit and turtle with Clogs + Hydras + Cerberi and be able to seal off an entire doorway without much hassle within a short period of time. Add other lifeforms and it's pretty much a death trap.
There should be a cap for the amount of Cerberi as well since they last indefinetly.

The main purpose for the Cerberi should be imobilization and delaying assaults. (esp for a early 2nd Hive drop)
Also, I think making it not affect Exos will be better since this will punish Exos who aren't aware of it and don't know that their Welders are being trapped and ambushed by Aliens.
Don't think it should work on structures, ARCs and Jetpackers at all.

There should be a "Primed" and "Un-Primed" mode for the Alien Khammander to toggle for each individual Cerberi.
Having a Marine triggerring it and then destroying it without any Aliens nearby seems to be a waste of resources.
This also gives the Alien Khammander something to do.

Marines should be able to turn around (at a slower speed) and fire
Marines who are trapped will do more damage to the Cerberi compared to other damage sources (I imagine putting bullets, shells, etc. directly into the mouth will do more than someone damaging the lips/gums)

However, my gripes about it are the numbers being off but number tweaks are easily solved.
It should be smaller as well (ninja trapping a lone Marine at the back when triggering the Cerberi as the Alien Khammander while your Aliens ambush the Marines means 1 less problem to deal with, and also other Marines may not notice it due to it's small size)
Too small, and Marines will by-pass it completely though.

Random Unimportant opnion:
Cerberi seems like a mouthful to pronounce.......how about Hybis (Charybdis) also easier to remember since Hyrdas and Hybises
And it doesn't really have 3 of anything so........

DanielD · October 2012

This is an excellent idea. Whips suck, but whips cloaked with a cerberi would actually be effective, which is another plus for this idea.

[Deleted User] · October 2012

Good idea in general.

1 - The model & animation when grabbing a marine could come up out of the ground slightly, kind of like a worm. That would get around the problem of how it would work with world geometry.
2- Can only be placed on infestation (makes more sense with the above)

Vladimir Van Vodka · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeavenOrHell @ Oct 28 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Imo this seems like a fantastic idea

Giving it to the Alien Khammander makes more sense because giving it to Gorges will just make them sit and turtle with Clogs + Hydras + Cerberi and be able to seal off an entire doorway without much hassle within a short period of time. <span style="color:#FFFF00">Add other lifeforms and it's pretty much a death trap.</span>
There should be a cap for the amount of Cerberi as well since they last indefinetly.</div>

The point of Cerberi is for them to be used in conjunction with other lifeforms and structures, if a gorge works together with the Khammander, it should be a viable strategy to hold off a chokepoint. they <b>are</b> technically deathtraps but like stated before only when supported.
As for the number cap, it should be large, as Cerberi are actually pretty weak (1 LMG clip to destroy at level 0 weapons, even less at higher tiers) with the size a Cerberus, it would take around 3 for a doorway to be completely covered (~9 resources cost), so marines can't pass through without landing in one of them, however they are quite defenseless alone, remember that they are more of support then static defense.
Not sure about the cap, as they may become numerous (causing lag), but easily cleared with flamethrower sweeping or even LMG fire. they cost 3 res each, this would be a losing strategy; even if they last indefinitely; as soon as they are spotted and reported to the commander by a dead marine, their surprise factor is effectively destroyed, thus can be taken out by afar really easily. A cluster of permanent Cerberi is ineffective, a single sneaky one is. They are actually more disposable then you'd think. <i>Theoretically of course...</i>
You come up with an interesting point, but these things would have to be tested and proven, all of this is theoretic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeavenOrHell @ Oct 28 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The main purpose for the Cerberi should be imobilization and delaying assaults. (esp for a early 2nd Hive drop)
Also, I think making it not affect Exos will be better since this will punish Exos who aren't aware of it and don't know that their Welders are being trapped and ambushed by Aliens.
Don't think it should work on structures, ARCs and Jetpackers at all.</div>

I agree with exos, you come up with a valid point, Structures most definitely, ARC's too.
I disagree with jetpackers: They can already fly over Cerberi, but if they land in one out of sheer bad luck, they should be affected by them fully, allowing aliens to discard of them. I don't see why any equipment should give marines total immunity to a structure the commander has spent resources on, making it obsolete. Allowing marines to completely ignore a once viable threat with no skill involved. Imagine an Alien upgrade that would give you complete immunity to mines, seems very unintuitive. If cerberi are heavy in an area, there are multiple viable strategies available to discard masses of them. Resources spent on something should give you what's written on the tin; "It eats marines."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeavenOrHell @ Oct 28 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#FFFF00">There should be a "Primed" and "Un-Primed" mode for the Alien Khammander to toggle for each individual Cerberi.
Having a Marine triggerring it and then destroying it without any Aliens nearby seems to be a waste of resources.
This also gives the Alien Khammander something to do.</span>

Marines should be able to turn around (at a slower speed) and fire
Marines who are trapped will do more damage to the Cerberi compared to other damage sources (I imagine putting bullets, shells, etc. directly into the mouth will do more than someone damaging the lips/gums)</div>

I like your whole post so far, these are the kind of posts I love to see in any thread; you're helping improve a suggestions with your points, ideas and criticisms.
Your idea of being able to trigger an inactive state is amazing, It made me think a whole other plethora of ideas pertaining to it; what if the Khammander creates a stealthy nest with a shade cloaking everything; It would be better to leave the Cerberi inactive to avoid any unwanted discovery, no?
Would allow for <i>so</i> many ambush mechanics, waiting for that lone marine, or specifically a group of them; causing chaos when 2-3 of them get caught at once.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeavenOrHell @ Oct 28 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>However, my gripes about it are the numbers being off but number tweaks are easily solved.
It should be smaller as well (ninja trapping a lone Marine at the back when triggering the Cerberi as the Alien Khammander while your Aliens ambush the Marines means 1 less problem to deal with, and also other Marines may not notice it due to it's small size)
Too small, and Marines will by-pass it completely though.</div>

Egg/IP size is about the size of a player's personal bubble, allowing for traps to an accurate degree, but with enough leeway to catch someone if they generally step on it. I don't understand why you would want it smaller? Any smaller and it would <i>not</i> be worth the resources for it's effectiveness, to be as effective you would require more, to reduce the cost would only promote spam, and lag because of the number of unique structures. using 3 cerberi (~9 resources) to cover an area 2/3ds of a whip's range of effectiveness (15 resources) makes sense to me. If it being smaller is better, please elaborate. I would already understand why bigger is worse, it would be cumbersome to use and less subtle, thus less effective in that respect.

As for number tweaks, which ones specifically? Which ones seem unfair or imbalanced? I can give valid reasoning behind most. If your reasoning is better or you have a point I never realized for changing XYZ values I'll gladly change it, even if it's theoretic, the more thought out they are the better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeavenOrHell @ Oct 28 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Random Unimportant opnion:
Cerberi seems like a mouthful to pronounce.......how about Hybis (Charybdis) also easier to remember since Hyrdas and Hybises
And it doesn't really have 3 of anything so........</div>

I prefer Cerberi, Just out of personal opinion.
As for the word being a mouthful, when people have long names thrown at them in gameplay they most likely evolve into a simplification of the original, making it more compound and concise; "Cerb' would be a good example, maybe even nicknames like "Maws", "Jaws" or "Mouths" just to name a few.
Ex: "Guys, there's a room filled with Cerbs, Oh-Gosh kill them with fire." <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">(<i>not</i> Serbs mind you, I don't condone racism.)</span>
And even if I would want to change the name; I can't, the thread name and subtitle is locked.
I would like the change "Marine Munching Maw" to the suggested "All the Maw to kill you with."
Partly also because I'm slightly obsessed with consistency, having the thread title different to the current name makes me queasy.

Romolski · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 27 2012, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>-<span style="color:#00FF00">Aliens have a Commander that can drop traps (Cerberi)</span>,<span style="color:#FF0000"> Marines don't.</span></div>

Thought the Marine Commander could drop mines at five res each already deployed?

Anyways, great idea, adds an interesting dynamic to an already intricate game. Also legitimizes the EXISTENCE of a commander versus the old NS1 mentality, very excited to see this develop and flourish into an actual game mechanic.

Vladimir Van Vodka · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Romolski @ Nov 2 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Thought the Marine Commander could drop mines at five res each already deployed?

Anyways, great idea, adds an interesting dynamic to an already intricate game. Also legitimizes the EXISTENCE of a commander versus the old NS1 mentality, very excited to see this develop and flourish into an actual game mechanic.</div>

No, marine commander can not drop mines directly, marines need to buy them from the armory then drop them manually.

I'm going to be updating the OP soon, adding more abilities thought of by other people.

Bacon Wizard · November 2012

Hi, I was wondering if Cerberi could have the feature of gaining resource for the alien team once the cerberi successfully devours the marine.

Vladimir Van Vodka · November 2012

Posting this up on Official suggestion list, please vote up so UWE can finally see this!

Actually, there's alot of stuff in here which is very nice!

Vote for everything if you can!

<a href="http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=2055e8" target="_blank">Suggestion Voting</a>

This whole suggestion is so damn old, I wish a UWE dev could reply, so I can let it die finally.

a simple
"We've seen it; leave us alone."

or even
"Bad idea."

would be enough to make me content.
Atleast enough so I can let it die, being stuck in limbo for more then a year is horrible.

Omar - The Wire · November 2012

You deserve a reply for simply putting together a well crafted presentation, thought out idea and attempted to keep it balanced, while in theme of the game.

A thousand times better than most of the moronic dribble people post in a half-frenzied mashing of keys to quickly extol the greatness of their Jetpack-Skulks or Marine Lasso which captures a Gorge and forces the healing spray to heal marines while it's dragged behind them in combat.

I don't have an interest in whether this is implemented or not, but you deserve consideration for simply the presentation.

Solid idea.

TimMc · November 2012

I really like this idea. +all my internets.

Shaedn · November 2012

I think this idea is amazing, not only because of its own merits, but in the way it will increase the viability of various other things in the game.

Thoughts while reading your post:
- Marines can no longer tread through alien territory more or less freely and destroy cysts as they wish.
- Flamethrower will play a vital role, rather than being an optional weapon (have rarely seen it used unless Marines were overflowing with res).
- Jetpacks are now infinitely more viable (not that they weren't great already).
- A skulk against a small group of marines is no longer a death sentence, as skulks can now lure marines into Cerberi and pick them off.
- Great defense for Onos hit and run strikes.

However, I disagree that this should be a commander ability, rather than a limited Gorge ability (suggested earlier in the thread).
My reasons are this:

- The impact of Cerberi would devastating to Marine assaults. To be able to bring a huge Marine push to a standstill is great for the Alien team, but this can be abused by an Alien commander with enough resources. Line an entire hallway leading to your hive with Cerberi, and the Marine assault is essentially dead in the water with the massive amount of time you've bought your forces to get there and take them apart. Not to mention the massive res loss by the Marine team in conducting the assault itself, with little consequence for the Alien team. Rinse and repeat.
- On a similiar vein to my previous point; imagine an entire Hive room lined with Cerberi, a Shade, and a few Crags.
- Exos are already slow-moving entities. An Alien commander who knows the position of one, or even a group of Exos is essentially able to slow them at will, and may even destroy them without accompanying welders. This grants far too much control to the Alien team over opposing forces.
- As you stated yourself, Jetpacks would become a must-have for the Marine team.
- It would force Marines to have to win the match within the first 20 minutes, or all hope of winning is lost.

Overall, I very much like the idea, but think that if this ability were to be granted to a commander the game would become a race against time/resources.

Cliffs:
- Idea is fantastic, increases viability of various game aspects.
- Agree that ability should be for Gorge, not Alien comm.
- Game becomes race against time otherwise.

Let me know if any of my arguments are factually incorrect, I will adjust or remove them accordingly.

Timarius · November 2012

I absolutely love your work on this idea! I personally feel it would be a great addition to the game, and give more uses for that flamethrower I love on marines (the only reason I ever play them). As long as they're not spammable. Entity limit per room, I'm thinking. Three, like turrets?

Otherwise, stick them on the Gorge... but I've got a different idea for a Gorge building.

EDIT: I feel that the Cerberi manages to fill a role needed on the Alien side. It would definitely give more time to react to a hive ninja, and it'd definitely act as a great ambush trap in hallways with infestation. And more uses for the flamethrower are always great.

Lt. Lizard · November 2012

I like the idea, however there are some issues with it that I don't think were addressed earlier in the thread

1) Currently, mini-map (and map) shows any buildings and players that are in your cone of sigh, even if you personally don't notice them. Pretty much every marine looks at mini-map and would notice Cerberi without seeing them on screen themselves, which would obviously greatly reduce its efficiency as stand-alone trap.

2) Dynamic Infestation can be turned off, which pretty much turns infestation into 2D texture on floors and walls and is turned off in pretty much every competitive match, which would leave Cerberi pretty exposed even in heavily infested room - which would again greatly reduce its effectiveness in performing its intended role.

Did you give some thoughts about those somewhere? Because outside of that the idea is pretty awesome. For a record, I agree with it being placeable by Alien Commander with limit of maybe 5 Cerberi per room. Alien Commander needs to have more stuff to do, and gorge will be getting tunnels and maybe webs in...well lets hope near future.

ZycaR · November 2012

1. add the "cerberi" some kind of hanging tentacles, which can reach the half of width of standard room suitable for onos (see mapping guide) Tentacles should be contracted, once marine is on the sight they will catch him.

2. make "cerberi" able to just paralyze marine on the spot, with parasite effect (to by visible to nearby aliens .. of course)

3. marine can shoot himself from this trap, but it will have decent HP for about two full magazines from not upgraded gun.

in combination with hydras and clogs it makes reason to create traps for marines.
also give them to gorges!

picture somehow related:
<a href="http://imgur.com/fNPOi" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/fNPOi.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

Cerberi

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