Two unacceptable design mistake persisting from NS1

13

Comments

  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 15 2011, 01:14 AM)
    I think of having the jaws close all the way as a more "violent" animation; one that gives you a satisfying moment of biting in reward for good aim. The not-closed one is more like a flub in my opinion; it says "whoops, I thought I was biting something, but I guess there's nothing there" to me.

    Exactly. Visual feedback that differentiates a Bite ATTEMPT vs a successful bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1 (which makes +22 total)
  • Josh86Josh86 Join Date: 2010-12-06 Member: 75513Members
    edited June 2011
    I can't say much for the muzzle flash with the bloom, as I haven't tried the new patch. Before that point, however, I have never been distracted by the the rifle shot effects. You make the point you are sensitive to flashing lights...is video gaming the best thing for you to be doing with a condition like that? Same thing goes for those who get disorientated with the idea of the alien rotating cam; I don't feel sick, dizzy, confused or anything like that (try the AvP games sometime). Maybe it's gaming experience I have or genetics that allows me to play without being feeling distracted, who knows. I remember playing WipEout (and the Playstation) for the first time...wow...that first big dip on the track made my stomach feel like I was really on a rollercoaster -- great experience -- but it wore off after a bit.

    Anyone else tend to slowly start leaning into the screen in NS1 when trying to get an intense kill as a skulk?

    It'd be hard to cater to everyone's preference; I suppose that's why many games give warnings about sensitivity to colors and flashing lights. You don't see the epilepsy/seizure warnings as much anymore.

    The skulk bite? How the heck are you distracted when trying to get a bite in on a marine? Maybe I'm just that absorbed into the game, but I hardly notice it during all the intensity. I don't think it needs to make biological sense. A 3rd person shooter (why are they called that again?) doesn't put the virtual camera in the player's eyes; who says a FPS needs to have the view locked in that position?
  • assbdaassbda Join Date: 2011-05-02 Member: 96737Members
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1852959:date=Jun 16 2011, 12:19 AM:name=Josh86)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Josh86 @ Jun 16 2011, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone else tend to slowly start leaning into the screen in NS1 when trying to get an intense kill as a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    f**k yeah to that, sometimes i can hear a pulse in my head when im seriously zoned in lol
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    On a successful hit the mouth could pause slightly thereby showing it bit something, but still be open 70%. This way the player is never blinded when biting something or missing.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
    edited June 2011
    It was never really a problem in NS1, you get used to it very quickly and kind of zone-out that the jaws are even there. I suppose it was a bit off-putting for some new players. I liked it, personally.

    Is it possible to give marines a Left 4 Dead style outline? Maybe only when they're parasited to encourage it. That would look much better than a partially closed jaw. A 70% closed jaw would look silly, like the skulk had crazy lockjaw or something.

    Muzzleflash in current patch is pretty big, I'm glad it's getting looked at.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited June 2011
    Don't ever change the skulk bite animation, that's what made me interested in NS. Because it takes skill and focus to play with it.

    <!--quoteo(post=1852972:date=Jun 15 2011, 01:22 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 15 2011, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it possible to give marines a Left 4 Dead style outline? Maybe only when they're parasited to encourage it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Take a look at this thread.
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113590" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=113590</a>
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1852972:date=Jun 15 2011, 06:22 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 15 2011, 06:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was never really a problem in NS1, you get used to it very quickly and kind of zone-out that the jaws are even there. I suppose it was a bit off-putting for some new players. I liked it, personally.

    Is it possible to give marines a Left 4 Dead style outline? Maybe only when they're parasited to encourage it. That would look much better than a partially closed jaw. A 70% closed jaw would look silly, like the skulk had crazy lockjaw or something.

    Muzzleflash in current patch is pretty big, I'm glad it's getting looked at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I like those suggestions. I believe the bite animation was quicker in HL mod NS.

    The alien dark vision is quite useful when fighting marines, until they get up close, or when they're jumping around a hive. It would be a lot less confusing if aliens and marines show up as contrasting colours.

    Another small problem with the current colour schemes is that Marines on hive sight are shown as red/orange circles. Since most rooms (should) have red lighting, they are quite ugly to behold.
  • TravCarpTravCarp Join Date: 2010-06-04 Member: 71962Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    So keep the bite the same way if you miss, if you hit the jaw only closes partially simulating him biting on the object?
  • BarerRudeROCBarerRudeROC Join Date: 2010-10-01 Member: 74264Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1852775:date=Jun 15 2011, 12:56 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With this implementation, it also leaves the possibility for obvious Hit feedback, if the jaws close 100% only when a hit is landed and 70% on misses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Is that you Gabe?

    +1. I'm surprised it's taken us almost 10 years to come up with such a simple solution.
  • CoolCookieCooksCoolCookieCooks Pretty Girl Join Date: 2003-05-18 Member: 16446Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1853032:date=Jun 15 2011, 06:36 PM:name=TravCarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TravCarp @ Jun 15 2011, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So keep the bite the same way if you miss, if you hit the jaw only closes partially simulating him biting on the object?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <b>This</b>
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1853045:date=Jun 15 2011, 06:23 PM:name=CoolCookieCooks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CoolCookieCooks @ Jun 15 2011, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>This</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Nonsense. Doesn't address the issue at all.
  • TravCarpTravCarp Join Date: 2010-06-04 Member: 71962Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1853069:date=Jun 15 2011, 03:34 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nonsense. Doesn't address the issue at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why not? It's not a new approach but rather another idea of using the same concept... It addresses the issue of having your vision obscured by reducing the jaw bite to be only minimal when you actually hit them. When you miss, well it's obvious because your jaw fully closed. I fear that removing your view from inside the jaw will have an impact on the immersion of actually playing the Skulk.

    Thinking about it more, with the more open bite for when you hit. This will allow you to see when you hit, than you cursor follow them getting successful hits one after another without obscuring the vision.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
    edited June 2011
    I liked the blood on the teeth as a hit reg way better.
    that would be pretty simple to pick up on.

    The fact that this thread people were discussing.
    a) Closed = Hit, Open = Miss
    b) Closed = Miss, Open = Hit (because something is in your teeth)
    c) No Change
    d) <b>offensive</b>

    says to me...
    leave it as it is...
    if you change it you still result in confusion.

    peace
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1853086:date=Jun 15 2011, 08:17 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 15 2011, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->l
    if you change it you still result in confusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    if you change the animation to give immediate visible feedback and not obstruct gameplay during misses (making it easier to correct your aim and land hits) it "still results in confusion" ... actually, the opposite of what you said.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    Honestly I'd like to get some feedback from Charlie Cleveland, since he asked for suggestions. Many players seem to like the idea, what do you think?
  • jaminjamin Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63332Members
    The bite animation felt much quicker in NS1.. hence the complaining.
    The muzzle flash is far too large as stated. I don't have problems with flashing lights but it clearly partially obscure the reticle.
    Add a third point.. Alien vision.. This is something I think Cory will eventually want changed.. as cool as it is.. all the hard work and money that was put into environment art is essentially wasted when you turn it on.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    I have to say it sounds pretty confusing to me. I think our time would be better spent elsewhere.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1853091:date=Jun 15 2011, 08:24 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I'd like to get some feedback from Charlie Cleveland, since he asked for suggestions. Many players seem to like the idea, what do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm not sold on the idea of 100% closed when you hit, I'd rather see the jaws angle as I tried to explain using ascii when you hit as a hit indicator :P
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1853220:date=Jun 15 2011, 11:01 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 15 2011, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to say it sounds pretty confusing to me. I think our time would be better spent elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I make no judgement as to how you use your time, but I can't for the life of me figure out how you are confused by the suggestion:



    Problem: bite animation obscures gameplay

    Solution: missed bites don't close the jaws across the entire screen, and therefore don't obscure gameplay.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1853233:date=Jun 15 2011, 06:10 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I make no judgement as to how you use your time, but I can't for the life of me figure out how you are confused by the suggestion:



    Problem: bite animation obscures gameplay

    Solution: missed bites don't close the jaws across the entire screen, and therefore don't obscure gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It probably has something to do with the
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem: bite animation obscures gameplay<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    part of the equation.

    I mean, I think the idea would be fun to try, but I don't see the current model as "broken" or "flawed". If you can't hit people as a Skulk, you need to play until you become better and begin to master the basics of the class. It's not a game problem; it's a skill problem.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1853236:date=Jun 15 2011, 11:18 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 15 2011, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It probably has something to do with the [problem: bite animation obscures gameplay] part of the equation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Basically, the OP said the jaws closing is distracting, and Charlie Cleveland said it's a recurring player complaint and "I don't know how else you could give feedback to biting if the camera wasn't inside the skulk's mouth. I dare you to come up with something better... "

    In other words Charlie asked for suggestions, so I have no idea why you're claiming offering a suggestion is confusing in and of itself.
  • eisigereisiger Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75159Members
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1852749:date=Jun 14 2011, 07:22 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 14 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dare you to come up with something better...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Decrease the <strike>opacity</strike> transparency of the view model the closer the jaw is to closing <!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->as an option<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, so you can see past your teeth. USD please.
  • sickboysickboy Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20804Members, Constellation
    edited June 2011
    Bitecam is god. The chaos of it all is just part of the glorious gameplay that is a skulk. A third person view (or an eye-level view) is just weird It'd feel more like leading a weird pig-dog (with fangs) around instead of BEING it.

    And as stated before, it's practically an NS trademark. Changing it now would be a disaster. Maybe in a different game it would be okay (although I still doubt it), but not any iteration of NS.

    No level of transparency would look good, and a less frequent chomp animation would just feel awkward with how fast you'd actually be biting.



    Now about missed bites idea (which would still keep the bitecam), that seems very promising! It could double as some extra feedback on a successful hit. That seems like something that could be modded though, if it doesn't make it into the game.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    I think that Charlie making the statement "<b>I dare you to come up with something better...</b>" and then arbitrarily disregarding a suggestion supported by many players is questionable. I hope he responds substantively.
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    edited June 2011
    You're not supposed to spam bites. It's one of the first things you learn not to do in NS1. So, in a way, it teaches you to be a better skulk.

    In FPS games you either shoot with your eyes or see with your gun.

    It may take some getting used to for new players, but it's extremely satisfying once you do, much like a well-tuned gun with a satisfying punch. I wouldn't be opposed to more hit feedback, though. I'm not sure if the suggested method is the best way of doing that.
  • sickboysickboy Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20804Members, Constellation
    Hmm.. hadn't thought about that. Same way you wouldn't just spray your machine gun everywhere as a marine (or if you do you probably aren't so great at the game).
  • Corporal_FortierCorporal_Fortier Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46079Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1853260:date=Jun 15 2011, 07:43 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Jun 15 2011, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not supposed to spam bites. It's one of the first things you learn not to do in NS1. So, in a way, it teaches you to be a better skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This. Plus you have audio feedback on hits and extra visual queues on kills (+res, kill indicator).

    Besides, does the 70/100% suggestion really deals with the issue voiced in the OP? If you're a bad skulk, you get to see the marine gun you down a few milliseconds longer because you can't bite him. If you're a good skulk, you still don't see squat when biting.

    Blood on teeth are pure aesthetic imo. Feedback on hits is already there. And what happens when you're biting buildings? Screws and scrap metal getting stuck in between teeth? ...
  • neilm86neilm86 Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67198Members
    i dont think either of these are issues. There is a degree of skill with using rifle and bite which you need to practice at to get good at. Making everthing easier is not the answer.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1853277:date=Jun 15 2011, 11:57 PM:name=Corporal_Fortier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corporal_Fortier @ Jun 15 2011, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides, does the 70/100% suggestion really deals with the issue voiced in the OP?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Jesus, how is this so confusing to so many people?

    The OP: "skulk bite jaws -- <b>attacking blinds the player</b>"

    Missed attack: Jaws don't close all the way, attacking <b>doesn't blind the player</b>
    Hit attack: Jaws close all the way. Obstruction is a non-issue because your view <b>is already obstructed</b> by whatever is being bitten.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1853257:date=Jun 15 2011, 11:36 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that Charlie making the statement "<b>I dare you to come up with something better...</b>" and then arbitrarily disregarding a suggestion supported by many players is questionable. I hope he responds substantively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, but he said he dared people to come up with something better, and it wasn't a better suggestion. You can feel to disagree with that assessment if you'd like, everyone is free to a difference of opinion.

    Half closing the mouth when missing a bite feels wrong and unresponsive. We've tweaked the skulk bite on numerous occasions, tried it more open when biting, and it feels like a bug. It doesn't have the same power, and responsiveness because its only partially closing, and it just feels wrong and unsatisfying, to only half close on air. And, it really doesn't help that much, with preventing the disorientation that some players feel with the skulk view.

    In general, its something we've been hearing since NS1 first came out, and people usually get used to playing with it after awhile. We'll likely still keep tweaking the bite, maybe try speeding it up more, though its almost as fast as it can be at the moment, not really any fewer frames of animation we can close the mouth in.

    Regarding the hit detection, that is something we'd like to address as well, though again, not with the amount the mouth closes. We've talked about wanting to add blood to the teeth, when you connect, which is probably the best way to indicate a hit. However we need the tech to be able to overlay blood on the teeth texture, or swap the texture to a bloody version, which we can't do just yet.

    --Cory
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