<!--quoteo(post=1853300:date=Jun 16 2011, 01:20 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Jun 16 2011, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop holding down mouse1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's right!
Only bite when you know/think you're going to land a hit. It's really not that bad, I personally enjoy it because it's so different (and fun in my opinion).
<!--quoteo(post=1853298:date=Jun 16 2011, 12:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 16 2011, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but he said he dared people to come up with something better, and it wasn't a better suggestion. You can feel to disagree with that assessment if you'd like, everyone is free to a difference of opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blanket disapproval with no supporting argument is generally frowned upon from normal forum posters. It's a different story from developers, because the buck stops with them, but it's slightly different when a developer specifically asks for suggestions. I have no problem with difference of opinion, but it would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement that my simple idea was even understood correctly even in the context of "no, we don't like that idea." Charlie flat out said he didn't understand it (I think thats what he meant), and you also seem to be misinterpreting given that your response is to the idea of it being "half-open while biting" rather than my suggestion that it completely close only on hits.
<!--quoteo(post=1853298:date=Jun 16 2011, 10:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 16 2011, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general, its something we've been hearing since NS1 first came out, and people usually get used to playing with it after awhile. We'll likely still keep tweaking the bite, maybe try speeding it up more, though its almost as fast as it can be at the moment, not really any fewer frames of animation we can close the mouth in. --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you considered reducing the rate of fire on the skulk bite? Leave damage per bite as it is, slow down the RoF by ~50%. It does nerf skulks vs structures somewhat, but probably wouldn't affect them vs marines all that much as it is quite rare for a skulk to land 2 hits in a row as it is. Skulk nerf vs structures wont be so bad since we have bilebomb now/etc. End result is skulks are biting less often, and since each bite starts feeling more precious, we hopefully start getting seeing skulks treating their main attack as more of a shotgun than a machine gun.
<!--quoteo(post=1853282:date=Jun 15 2011, 08:01 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jesus, how is this so confusing to so many people?
The OP: "skulk bite jaws -- <b>attacking blinds the player</b>"
Missed attack: Jaws don't close all the way, attacking <b>doesn't blind the player</b> Hit attack: Jaws close all the way. Obstruction is a non-issue because your view <b>is already obstructed</b> by whatever is being bitten.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dont get me wrong, the idea in itself is clear and all. What "confuses" many people - or at least me- is that the concept does not seem to achieve anything worthwhile (hence time being better spent elsewhere). Looking back at all my NS gameplay experience, it just feels like it wouldn't fix anything really. Some people said it would fix their problems, and I respect that, but the whole thing doesn't seem like the right approach to me. And, as you(?) mentioned, the discussion keeps going in circles, and to me that's a sign something is really wrong. Maybe not specifically with the idea and more with its development process, but oh well, I got ninja'ed by a few people while writing this and they sum up pretty much what I wanted to add.
<!--quoteo(post=1853304:date=Jun 16 2011, 12:23 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 16 2011, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie flat out said he didn't understand it (I think thats what he meant), and you also seem to be misinterpreting given that your response is to the idea of it being "half-open while biting" rather than my suggestion that it completely close only on hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to be hoping that people are misinterpreting you rather then disagreeing with you. It may be written slightly differently in my post, since I refer to "biting" as encompassing any form of the attack, whether it is biting and missing, or biting and hitting, but I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. Yes, you would like the view model to only partially close when the skulk misses (which I think feels unresponsive and wrong, like the teeth are being stopped by thin air) and fully close when connecting a hit (which is also weird, considering the teeth would ordinarily be stopped by metal, flesh, bone, etc., and not close all the way).
<!--quoteo(post=1853337:date=Jun 16 2011, 02:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 16 2011, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to be hoping that people are misinterpreting you rather then disagreeing with you. It may be written slightly differently in my post, since I refer to "biting" as encompassing any form of the attack, whether it is biting and missing, or biting and hitting, but I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. Yes, you would like the view model to only partially close when the skulk misses (which I think feels unresponsive and wrong, like the teeth are being stopped by thin air) and fully close when connecting a hit (which is also weird, considering the teeth would ordinarily be stopped by metal, flesh, bone, etc., and not close all the way).
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funnily enough that's exactly what I said.
The other way would make sense, but wouldn't be any use in stopping the disorientation.
<!--quoteo(post=1853337:date=Jun 16 2011, 01:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 16 2011, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to be hoping that people are misinterpreting you rather then disagreeing with you. <b>It may be written slightly differently </b>in my post, since I refer to "biting" as encompassing any form of the attack, whether it is biting and missing, or biting and hitting, but I am not misunderstanding what you are saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only go on what you write, I don't have ESP, and what you wrote was contradictory to what was suggested. So it's not so much that I'm "hoping" people are misinterpreting, as it is that I am literally reading what you and others have written. So thanks for clarifying.
I have to note that you think the current animation is "weird" as well as the half-bite. What we can take from that (as posted previously) is that since both options are "weird", it is appropriate to ignore strict physical reality (teeth being stopped by air/teeth not being stopped by metal/eyes being inside a mouth) because the non-physical "weirdness" is inevitable in one form or the other. Therefore the only consideration remaining is what is most beneficial to gameplay. And it seems to be broadly accepted among the community that my suggestion would be beneficial to gameplay.
I appreciate that you guys have probably decided a long time ago to avoid addressing this particular nitpick, so all I can do is support my position here because it's in my opinion reasonable. I recognize I'm not going to convince someone who's mind was already made up (and that Charlie Cleveland's challenge to come up with an alternative was likely rhetorical), so consider this an argument in the abstract rather than any kind of pressure to change whatever plan (or lack of it) UW has to respond to this long-running player complaint.
<!--quoteo(post=1853277:date=Jun 16 2011, 12:57 AM:name=Corporal_Fortier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corporal_Fortier @ Jun 16 2011, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And what happens when you're biting buildings? Screws and scrap metal getting stuck in between teeth? ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Metal shards in your teeth means DAMAGE INCREASE!!!!!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1853351:date=Jun 15 2011, 09:46 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it seems to be broadly accepted among the community<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't try and make things easier. Just practice with it, and don't hold down mouse1. <b> The skulk bite is very strong, if there was no blinding effect, it might even be OP. I enjoy it closing and having to quickly find out how the marine moved in that split second.
Think of it this way, the skulk is slamming his jaws together with great force, even if you were viewing it from above the skulks mouth, wouldn't the skulk be blinking from how hard he just bit down? </b>
It was a design choice which I think turned out beautiful. It has inherent balance, and a unique balance, not just tweaking a number. Practice with it, you'll get used to it and enjoy it I'm sure. It adds to the uniqueness of the skulk class and immersion even in my opinion. Seeing the skulk combat abilities from the heart of it, in its mouth. Then, changing opacity or having it not fully bite down, would just be plain weird.
Part of the reason this might be more annoying in NS2 beta than NS1 is frame rate... if your frame rate is lower, you're likely spending a larger fraction of each second with your view occluded by the closed mouth. Once frame rates improve some more, I'm thinking this might be less of an issue.
To someone with a sensitivity to flashes, I can see how going from "dark room" to "bright pink inside of mouth" might be a bit of an issue, too. It might be helpful to up your gamma correction some, so that the contrast between the two isn't quite so sharp.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1853663:date=Jun 16 2011, 10:13 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 16 2011, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To someone with a sensitivity to flashes, I can see how going from "dark room" to "bright pink inside of mouth" might be a bit of an issue, too. It might be helpful to up your gamma correction some, so that the contrast between the two isn't quite so sharp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alien vision could help a bit with that as well though
Comments
He's right!
Only bite when you know/think you're going to land a hit. It's really not that bad, I personally enjoy it because it's so different (and fun in my opinion).
Blanket disapproval with no supporting argument is generally frowned upon from normal forum posters. It's a different story from developers, because the buck stops with them, but it's slightly different when a developer specifically asks for suggestions. I have no problem with difference of opinion, but it would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement that my simple idea was even understood correctly even in the context of "no, we don't like that idea." Charlie flat out said he didn't understand it (I think thats what he meant), and you also seem to be misinterpreting given that your response is to the idea of it being "half-open while biting" rather than my suggestion that it completely close only on hits.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you considered reducing the rate of fire on the skulk bite? Leave damage per bite as it is, slow down the RoF by ~50%. It does nerf skulks vs structures somewhat, but probably wouldn't affect them vs marines all that much as it is quite rare for a skulk to land 2 hits in a row as it is. Skulk nerf vs structures wont be so bad since we have bilebomb now/etc. End result is skulks are biting less often, and since each bite starts feeling more precious, we hopefully start getting seeing skulks treating their main attack as more of a shotgun than a machine gun.
The OP: "skulk bite jaws -- <b>attacking blinds the player</b>"
Missed attack: Jaws don't close all the way, attacking <b>doesn't blind the player</b>
Hit attack: Jaws close all the way. Obstruction is a non-issue because your view <b>is already obstructed</b> by whatever is being bitten.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont get me wrong, the idea in itself is clear and all. What "confuses" many people - or at least me- is that the concept does not seem to achieve anything worthwhile (hence time being better spent elsewhere). Looking back at all my NS gameplay experience, it just feels like it wouldn't fix anything really. Some people said it would fix their problems, and I respect that, but the whole thing doesn't seem like the right approach to me. And, as you(?) mentioned, the discussion keeps going in circles, and to me that's a sign something is really wrong. Maybe not specifically with the idea and more with its development process, but oh well, I got ninja'ed by a few people while writing this and they sum up pretty much what I wanted to add.
You seem to be hoping that people are misinterpreting you rather then disagreeing with you. It may be written slightly differently in my post, since I refer to "biting" as encompassing any form of the attack, whether it is biting and missing, or biting and hitting, but I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. Yes, you would like the view model to only partially close when the skulk misses (which I think feels unresponsive and wrong, like the teeth are being stopped by thin air) and fully close when connecting a hit (which is also weird, considering the teeth would ordinarily be stopped by metal, flesh, bone, etc., and not close all the way).
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funnily enough that's exactly what I said.
The other way would make sense, but wouldn't be any use in stopping the disorientation.
Then again, I play skulk by spamming bite and leap. Its surprisingly effective.
I can only go on what you write, I don't have ESP, and what you wrote was contradictory to what was suggested. So it's not so much that I'm "hoping" people are misinterpreting, as it is that I am literally reading what you and others have written. So thanks for clarifying.
I have to note that you think the current animation is "weird" as well as the half-bite. What we can take from that (as posted previously) is that since both options are "weird", it is appropriate to ignore strict physical reality (teeth being stopped by air/teeth not being stopped by metal/eyes being inside a mouth) because the non-physical "weirdness" is inevitable in one form or the other. Therefore the only consideration remaining is what is most beneficial to gameplay. And it seems to be broadly accepted among the community that my suggestion would be beneficial to gameplay.
I appreciate that you guys have probably decided a long time ago to avoid addressing this particular nitpick, so all I can do is support my position here because it's in my opinion reasonable. I recognize I'm not going to convince someone who's mind was already made up (and that Charlie Cleveland's challenge to come up with an alternative was likely rhetorical), so consider this an argument in the abstract rather than any kind of pressure to change whatever plan (or lack of it) UW has to respond to this long-running player complaint.
Metal shards in your teeth means DAMAGE INCREASE!!!!!!!
Doubt it.
Get off your soap-box.
<!--quoteo(post=1852951:date=Jun 15 2011, 11:44 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 15 2011, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 (which makes +22 total)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>
The skulk bite is very strong, if there was no blinding effect, it might even be OP. I enjoy it closing and having to quickly find out how the marine moved in that split second.
Think of it this way, the skulk is slamming his jaws together with great force, even if you were viewing it from above the skulks mouth, wouldn't the skulk be blinking from how hard he just bit down? </b>
It was a design choice which I think turned out beautiful. It has inherent balance, and a unique balance, not just tweaking a number. Practice with it, you'll get used to it and enjoy it I'm sure. It adds to the uniqueness of the skulk class and immersion even in my opinion. Seeing the skulk combat abilities from the heart of it, in its mouth. Then, changing opacity or having it not fully bite down, would just be plain weird.
To someone with a sensitivity to flashes, I can see how going from "dark room" to "bright pink inside of mouth" might be a bit of an issue, too. It might be helpful to up your gamma correction some, so that the contrast between the two isn't quite so sharp.
Alien vision could help a bit with that as well though