Placing the fun in Power Nodes
_Necro_
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Yeah again this kind of topic. But wait until you read the text.</div>Many threads regarding the power node feature and seriously. Have you fun in repairing / destroying them?
Let's find out, where is the problem with power nodes. I think: It is no fun in waiting more than 10 sec, while chomping / repairing a power node. Nor is it rewarding enough. A game has to be fun. Facing a wall for 30seconds holding down one key simply isn't fun.
How can we overcome this?
1. Make chomping / repairing actually fun or at least not a pain in the ass.
2. Increase the reward for chomping / repairing a node. (Most other threads mentions this.)
The first point may be more rewarding for the game play. Because having actually fun is better than having no fun for a specific time, but got a reward for this time.
So how could this "make it fun"-thing look in detail? I don't know, but i have some ideas that may work.
- Extremely shorten the time that is needed for chomping / repairing a power node. If you only need ... maybe 8 seconds to destroy a power node, it would be used much more frequently by the aliens in ongoing attacks. The repair time where this shot too. So you can quickly get the power back after an alien attack but its long enough that you risk your life while repairing it in an ongoing fight.
To avoid inbalance where aliens could quickly overcome a good defended base with many sentries, simply in destroying the power node fast enough, the MACs could get the ability to fortify a power node so it takes longer (But not even as long as now!) to destroy it.
- Add a Mini game in chomping / repairing a power node like the Tech is hacking a door in "Alien Swarm". (screen shot: <a href="http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg" target="_blank">http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg</a> ) A marine has to connect two points multiple times by turning the wire parts clock wise until the two dots are connected. The mini game for the aliens could be to turn this wire parts so the two points are not connected anymore. As alien simply turn one wire part to deactivate the power node or turn much more wire parts to make it difficult for the marine to get them in line again.
- For now, at the start of a map its wise that the aliens should begin to destroy near power nodes. But this takes the action out of the early game. (Marines try to get first res nodes. Aliens chomping power nodes and spreading infestion.) To get the PvP action back in the very early game you could set the power nodes in something like a standby-state at the beginning of the map. The first alien bite / repair second on a power node in standby would make it destroyed / active. So you got a fast pacing run for the power nodes after the map starts and don't have to look 30sec against a wall while chomping the first power node near your hive.
This are only ideas. I hope you like some of them or maybe a developer reads this and thinks about it.
Greetings Necro
Let's find out, where is the problem with power nodes. I think: It is no fun in waiting more than 10 sec, while chomping / repairing a power node. Nor is it rewarding enough. A game has to be fun. Facing a wall for 30seconds holding down one key simply isn't fun.
How can we overcome this?
1. Make chomping / repairing actually fun or at least not a pain in the ass.
2. Increase the reward for chomping / repairing a node. (Most other threads mentions this.)
The first point may be more rewarding for the game play. Because having actually fun is better than having no fun for a specific time, but got a reward for this time.
So how could this "make it fun"-thing look in detail? I don't know, but i have some ideas that may work.
- Extremely shorten the time that is needed for chomping / repairing a power node. If you only need ... maybe 8 seconds to destroy a power node, it would be used much more frequently by the aliens in ongoing attacks. The repair time where this shot too. So you can quickly get the power back after an alien attack but its long enough that you risk your life while repairing it in an ongoing fight.
To avoid inbalance where aliens could quickly overcome a good defended base with many sentries, simply in destroying the power node fast enough, the MACs could get the ability to fortify a power node so it takes longer (But not even as long as now!) to destroy it.
- Add a Mini game in chomping / repairing a power node like the Tech is hacking a door in "Alien Swarm". (screen shot: <a href="http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg" target="_blank">http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg</a> ) A marine has to connect two points multiple times by turning the wire parts clock wise until the two dots are connected. The mini game for the aliens could be to turn this wire parts so the two points are not connected anymore. As alien simply turn one wire part to deactivate the power node or turn much more wire parts to make it difficult for the marine to get them in line again.
- For now, at the start of a map its wise that the aliens should begin to destroy near power nodes. But this takes the action out of the early game. (Marines try to get first res nodes. Aliens chomping power nodes and spreading infestion.) To get the PvP action back in the very early game you could set the power nodes in something like a standby-state at the beginning of the map. The first alien bite / repair second on a power node in standby would make it destroyed / active. So you got a fast pacing run for the power nodes after the map starts and don't have to look 30sec against a wall while chomping the first power node near your hive.
This are only ideas. I hope you like some of them or maybe a developer reads this and thinks about it.
Greetings Necro
Comments
Minigames become tedious very quickly, and at some point you will just wish that it was back to holding "E" to repair. Not to mention it removes the possibility to have multiple marines repairing the node.
Fortifying the powernode seems reasonable, but only if you implement a shorter time to repair/destroy the node. So this falls flat on it's face by virtue of being an off-shoot of the first idea.
I was considering the role of infestation in all of this, if infestation damaged powernodes if they're covered with it, it removed the requirement for aliens to take them out manually, but it requires the marines to repair it still, but this would have to be implemented after pustules are, otherwise Marines would definitely lose (no way of repairing nodes because of infestation).
This unfortunately is biased in the alien's favor, so perhaps, instead of damaging the power node, infestation powers down a room without destroying the node (after a period of time, to prevent abuse) and then, if the infestation is removed (kill pustule), the power is instantly restored.
Power nodes can still be destroyed for additional downtime, and perhaps in this case, power nodes could be fortified against infestation, but the protection can be removed by aliens without destroying the node completely (like extra armor plating that can be damaged independently of the node).
People in online games are retarded enough as it is, the last thing we need is something to complicate it for them.
And i dont think im alone on this thought.
Whats with the third point? You don't mentioned this.
@assbda:
No, I don't think we want this people to play with us. Those who really want to play a game with the complexity of NS aren't those ######s you know from CS.
No, I don't think we want this people to play with us. Those who really want to play a game with the complexity of NS aren't those ######s you know from CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because the xenophobic isolationism was obviously the best part of playing NS1.
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<!--quoteo(post=1852994:date=Jun 15 2011, 11:17 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 15 2011, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@assbda:
No, I don't think we want this people to play with us. Those who really want to play a game with the complexity of NS aren't those ######s you know from CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets keep the "complicated/tedious" tasks for the commander. I see it like this: Generally more rts oriented people will play commander because it's their play style. Having different routes to go down for reaching "late game", should I hive here - or there, marines are on the offense lets throw up some static defense; also get a gorge to help heal it, etc etc.
These some times dumbed down generic fps players will not like it so they will play the more simple FPS. But FPS in NS2 has a more important role than your generic shooters. (Yay lets make these players better!) By including for example; groups (rambo style loses vs a team of 5), help your commander capture forward bases, static defense, thus creating a more surreal immersion. Stuff like this I think helps keep these 2 different genre players playing the same game competitively. Lets not shoo them off! :3
DARN TOOTIN
Honestly, I agree with the OP that biting / axing a building for 5 minutes is weak gameplay, but on the other hand nerfing building health has its own set of (arguably greater) problems.
Not many diehards are going to agree with my opinion, but I think destroying buildings should be a Commander task, as part of the RTS side of the game. In other words, building health should be increased such that it's totally impractical to destroy them unless you have a huge group of players focusing their attacks on a single building. Then move the destruction tech to the commander, for example having (FPS) TSA screeners clear a path for the commander to move an ARC in range to take out buildings in the base.
That way it would be more player vs player and less player vs buildings, and it would also promote a greater sense of direct conflict between the opposing Commanders.
Related, massively increasing the health of power nodes and making their destruction dependent on Croach covering them / repair dependent on the builder robots would solve the issue in the OP.
That way it would be more player vs player and less player vs buildings, and it would also promote a greater sense of direct conflict between the opposing Commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like your ideas but I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle.
Keep building health the same, but make commander attacks truly devastating.
We're seeing this already with the ARC and no doubt infestation will have a pivotal role later on in development.
To elaborate, commander attacks should do a huge amount of damage, and a Hive/Comm chairs biggest fears should not be with the infantry but with the other commander.
TL:DR
Hive/Comm Chair weak against Commander attacks.
Other buildings are weak to both comm attacks and infantry attacks.
The priority is to make way for commander attacks, while providing defence.
The basis for my suggestion is to remove the incentive for FPS players to attack buildings at all (unless it's a co-ordinated attack, which would be primarily organized by the Commander). FPS players should focus on defending their Commander's offensive units from attacks by other players, so it's more PvP and less Player v Building.
That's why it's important to remove knifing/biting buildings as an effective tactic, by increasing building health and moving anti-base offense to the Commander role (as is fitting for a RTS game).
Your method is perfect for marines, there's no doubt about that.
And I'd like to see it implemented to a degree where gameplay is enjoyable and intensive for both Commander and soldier.
But it would not work for the Kharaa in my opinion, as the main power of their side resides in the raw efficiency of the infantry.
Implementing an offensive alien commander tool which the infantry can work alongside with is very difficult for the aliens due to their advantages over the marines (with DI, players care little for the effect of infestation ATM and usually disregard it's existence due to its independance and lack of benefits).
Unless Kharaa got a unit to rival the ARC, I can't see it happening for them too soon.
I see where you're coming from, hence my suggestion to increase the offensive ability of Croach. For example covering a power node with croach (relevant to OP's complaint) would instantly power down the room and start cumulatively damaging the node. EnCroaching TSA buildings would cumulatively damage them. Maybe the Whip could be used as a building killer? There are tons of options for the Alien team as well as the TSA with this paradigm.
But it would neglect teamwork between the Alien commander and his teammates (not that there's much of that in game already).
The Kharaa ground units are specifically suited to offensive attacks (bar Gorge of course).
By eliminating the need for infantry aggro, you are also eliminating the need for infantry offense and thus enforcing their motives with defence (a gameplay pattern not suited to Kharaa classes and it's not particularly fun either).
If we did give infestation building damage, it would encourage snail fortification/turtling.
In terms of moving buildings like whips and spreading infestation, they would not suit teamwork with Kharaa infantry at all as these are very slow processes and infantry units are based as scouting/hit and run/shock and awe classes.
Just putting it out there for thought.
Of course not. It would mandate teamwork in order to protect the offensive tactic from FPS players. Croach in a TSA base would be instantly destroyed without backup, ARCS attacking buildings would be instantly destroyed by aliens unless there was a squad protecting them.
The ONLY way it could possibly be effective is a direct coordinated attack involving the Comm and his team, and thats how base offense should work.
Pustules my friend, these effects wouldn't take place until late game and even then it would require protection of these step by step (as pustules will work), otherwise known as snail fortification.
Perhaps we should agree to disagree?
I understand and value your point, but it challenges my opinion on how the game should run, and I don't think one of us will be persuaded away from our opinions too soon.
We're still in Beta, so it remains to be seen what the best course of action is.
No, the exact opposite.
Hence the "snail fortification"
(a trail is made of pustules, where the frontline one is fortified until the next one is made and thus fortified as well, taking the place of the previous one, until the trail reaches the enemies base).
We don't want slow, bit by bit gameplay in order to win.
Maybe I'm looking at things the wrong way,
Let me get this straight, you're saying that in order to damage buildings effectively, the commander needs to use crouch effectively through using pustules (and by moving/creating buildings like whips) which is a slow process.
From my understanding pustules won't function like DI does in the current build where it can be placed anywhere on the map, but it will move piece by piece through the map.
I'm saying that if this change was implemented, that in order to win the game and tackle the marine side effectively, the Kharaa are going to have to protect each frontline pustule (or building i.e: Whip), and inch slowly closer to the base in order to do real building damage.
I'm saying this is a bad idea because it neglects class roles by forcing units to prioritise the safety of the pustules.
What have I got wrong?
No, you WERE saying that it makes teamwork between Aliens & Alien Comm unnecessary. Now you're saying something totaly different (and contradictory).
Anyway, I don't think the Croach has to be continuously connected. I think a pustule is a building that can be placed anywhere, and spreads Croach around that point. So there's no "snail fortification." If I understand the proposed system, a Gorge would have to sneak into the TSA base (with protection from his team=teamwork) and lay down some Croach, and then the Commander would place a pustule on that Croach (teamwork), and then the FPS players would protect that building (teamwork) as it destroyed buildings surrounding it.
Anyway, I don't think the Croach has to be continuously connected. I think a pustule is a building that can be placed anywhere, and spreads Croach around that point. So there's no "snail fortification." If I understand the proposed system, a Gorge would have to sneak into the TSA base (with protection from his team=teamwork) and lay down some Croach, and then the Commander would place a pustule on that Croach (teamwork), and then the FPS players would protect that building (teamwork) as it destroyed buildings surrounding it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean, that with this change in place it isn't unnecessary, but it isn't fun either.
That's what I was trying to get at.
With Croach,
I was under the impression that it worked as a large vein of some sorts, all connected, pumping DI through the map.
(For a pustule to be made it must be within a certain radius of another)
That's what I was trying to get at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're just changing your argument because you can't back up what you were saying before. Now you're basically saying defending a point in an FPS isn't fun. TF2's CP maps disagree.
That's why CP maps have a lot of stages, if you stop the enemy at the first or second point all the time, the map is clearly badly designed, and the game is also hideously boring.
No, I'm saying that it isn't fun using offensive classes, in an offensive game for a defensive purpose constantly. Turtling as a fade is not fun, that's why blink is in place, to traverse the map quickly and do shock and awe tactics, not "turtle until the next pustule arrives".
That's why CP maps have a lot of stages, if you stop the enemy at the first or second point all the time, the map is clearly badly designed, and the game is also hideously boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, perfectly put.
This is why I'm saying that building damage primarily by Croach is a very bad idea.
Offensive motives such as building damage are essential for FPS players in that they can do it thenselves instead of holding the commanders hand and guiding him step by step to the marine base.
Infantry acts as pressure and Commander acts as support, but comm becomes very important in the late game, fulfilling his role and still playing a core part in that he can act as a game finisher.
Therefore meaning that if the infantry cannot do the job early on, the commander will enable them to finish the job by applying heavy pressure on the base as well.
I seem to remember it being pretty fun to be on defense, regardless of how the map is designed. The popularity of that game mode in TF2 agrees.
Because you keep losing points.
If you spent game after game doing nothing but defending the first point for half an hour because you spammed it full of buildings and covered all the doors with snipers, the game would suck, fortunately the game and all the maps are designed very specifically so that you don't do that, you will lose points steadily because the game favours the attackers, not the defenders. All of the good defensive options have hard counters on the attacking side, whereas there are no hard counters to a team of varied classes attacking in large groups.
Ultimately, the entire game is designed to force combat down to player versus player, buildings are easy to destroy, entrenched positions are easy to smash, the only way you can defend anything is by constantly reinforcing with large numbers of players. The game isn't really attack/defend, it's team deathmatch in this area until you win/lose and move onto the next area, and when you've done that a dozen times the teams swap and you have to do it faster than the other guys.
So you aren't supposed to defend successfully, you are supposed to lose less hard.
I want you to imagine moving inch by inch through the map, just defending each pustule, slowly until you reach the main base. Then when you lose one you have to go to the previous one, fortify and wait for the next one.
Not very exciting eh?
Whereas tactics such as IP, extractor, comm raids early on are just so much more exciting and fun while still giving varied and non-repetitive gameplay.