As an insanely rabid TF2 player, I'd like to take the time to say this:
NS2 isn't TF2. It isn't even anything like TF2 except for loose connections and common concepts. If you're looking to TF2 for how NS2 roles should function, you're doing it wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1853309:date=Jun 16 2011, 01:26 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 16 2011, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think I'm saying anything about looking to TF2 for how NS2 roles should function, you're reading wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what does 'defence is fun because it's fun in TF2' mean exactly?
<!--quoteo(post=1853309:date=Jun 15 2011, 07:26 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think I'm saying anything about looking to TF2 for how NS2 roles should function, you're reading wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're referencing TF2 design in any capacity other than an off-topic comment saying you think the game is cool (or sucks), you're arguing wrong.
Whether RED has fun defending, whether BLU would enjoy slowly guarding some sort of bomb-shaped slowly moving front to RED's base, how map design or level design was executed and what inspired them to turn out like they did; none of that is relevant here. We're talking DI, Power Nodes, strategic raids, and support.
Actually TF2 does serve as a good example of the importance of keeping the focus on player vs player combat. Engineers are intrinsically linked to their structures, and this can be seen with the gorge and thei hydras, when you enter a room full of hydras with a gorge in it, fighting the hydras is fighting the gorge, you shoot them and the gorge reacts, your goal is to draw the gorge out to kill it, as it's the weak point in the setup. In that respect fighting buildings is fun.
However spending time shooting up commander buildings or defending them, not really much fun, neccesary of course, but not much fun. You can do wonders to reduce this however by focussing the classes on direct attacks against enemy bases, and making the best defence be direct intervention by players.
Focussing the team on mutual turtling with arcs and pustules and waiting for the automatic effects to win the game is by far the wrong approach.
Zex, I think you should re-evaluate your theory. From what I've read and from what you've stated earlier, maybe you believed that pustules would be the same as DI is in the current build, and could be placed anywhere (or on gorge DI as you stated), which would result in different strategies such as ninja-gorging.
However, (I'm almost sure) DI is going to act like a vein in that it's all connected and branches out in lines, each pustule within a certain radius of another pustule.
<!--quoteo(post=1853313:date=Jun 16 2011, 12:30 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 16 2011, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're talking DI, Power Nodes, strategic raids, and support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually what "we're" talking about, in the context of this particular point, is whether defending things in a FPS can be fun. There was a broad generalization made that it wasn't, and I provided an example of that being incorrect. If you're getting anything else out of that exchange, you need to read more carefully.
<!--quoteo(post=1853325:date=Jun 16 2011, 01:48 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 16 2011, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually what "we're" talking about, in the context of this particular point, is whether defending things in a FPS can be fun. There was a broad generalization made that it wasn't, and I provided an example of that being incorrect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but I believe the original point was that it wasn't fun in NS, until someone had to compare a base asymmetric game to a base symmetric game. Two games with completely different styles of play.
And on the original point I stated it would work with marines not Kharaa, ranged based versus melee based thus asymmetry. Whereas TF2 maps, team and gameplay is based on symettry, therefore it's obviously going to be better in and easier to handle in TF2.
<!--quoteo(post=1853190:date=Jun 15 2011, 06:23 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 15 2011, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In other words, building health should be increased such that it's totally impractical to destroy them unless you have a huge group of players focusing their attacks on a single building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I don't agree entirely since that would be too drastic of a change, however I would like to see Skulks and Lerks discouraged from targeting most structures directly, and instead encouraged to target Power Nodes.
Give Spikes and Bite Light damage and give more armor to any Structure that these lifeforms should be discouraged from targeting, or change them to Puncture and make the puncture damage multiplier more appealing?
That aside, I also think there are just too many Power Nodes. One per room? Forget realism, let's talk about practicality. Even if they are breaker boxes, you still wouldn't have one in every frakking room! And from a design perspective, having Power Nodes in the same room as other points of interest (Tech and Res nodes) increases the values of those rooms to the point of encouraging their fortification (TURTLE TOWN, my friends... turtle town); a bad idea, in my opinion.
Just a small note, holding 1 button while looking at the wall can be extremely rewarding (contrary to op). I have broken 40 minute stalemates by prancing my ass into ms and taking out their power node. gg.
Rewarding. Maybe in some situations more than in others. But that is not the point. The Problem is, that there is no fun in it. Drastically reducing the time for repairing / destroying may lead to faster game play. I don't see a problem in this tweak. Not even the "marine goes out, alien comes in and destroys the node, marine comes in and repairs it and so on..." - argument. It would favor the marine play style of building bases and defend them. Roaming around in search for trouble is the alien part.
<!--quoteo(post=1852949:date=Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Facing a wall for 30seconds holding down one key simply isn't fun.
How can we overcome this? 1. Make chomping / repairing actually fun or at least not a pain in the ass. 2. Increase the reward for chomping / repairing a node. (Most other threads mentions this.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but if you read it all, you will see that I focused on the first point.
<!--quoteo(post=1852949:date=Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first point may be more rewarding for the game play. Because having actually fun is better than having no fun for a specific time, but got a reward for this time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
I have a solution that will reduce the tedious elements of the game play involving Power Node.
Solution: Shorten the interaction time with Power Nodes, without reducing the time for attacking/defending Power Nodes.
How? By changing the mechanism to one that is similar to bomb planting in Counter Strike.
The HP of each Power Node would be reduced (to around 1500 HP), so it can be destroyed in under 10 seconds by one alien. For the Marines, it will also take under 10 seconds to repair by one marine. Multiple aliens attacking (as well as multiple marines repairing) may be able speed up the destruction/repair of the Node.
However, the power will not be immediately severed/restored once the Node is destroyed/repaired. That will take around 10 seconds, due to the nature of the circuitry. Should the Node be destroyed/repaired before those 10 seconds can elapse, the power state will remain unchange.
For example, if the aliens destroy a power node, and marines successfully repair the damage within 10 seconds, then the power will not be lost. But if the marines fail to do so, they will have to defend the Node for 10 seconds after the completion of the repair for power to return.
I think these changes will make the game play involving Power Node a more satisfying experience.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
30 seconds seems a bit long doesn't it? I think 10-20 seconds would fit better.
If power nodes have less health, they would be too easy to take out in marine start. That gives the aliens a huge advantage.
When aliens destroy it, it would seem wierd that the power doesn't go out immediately. But it could go out(total blackout) for 1-5secs and then get back on(backup power generator?) and then the "backup power generator" could go out after 10-20 seconds and red lighting would appear.
I understand your suggestion, but I'm not really a fan of the idea.
I'd rather see that all power nodes, except marine start, is unpowered in the beginning of the game. And that alien start also gets a powernode!
I'm not sure whether someone has adressed this somehow somewhere already, but...
Let's start with the assumption that you have to bite, build or repair nodes at some point of the game. At that point would be far more interesting if the mapper had an ability to place some kind of 'tower of power' away from walls. You can think of it as an RT, except that instead of RT duties it performs as a power node.
If you think about NS1 RT building, biting and all that: You can use the RT as a cover, you can guard multiple doorways the way you see suitable, in case you get attacked you can try to dance around the node. The list goes on. Having the power node on the wall denies a lot of positioning, cover and visibility and forces you to take a very repetetive approach to the job. In short it lacks dynamics that could easily be there to make it way more interesting.
Hmm, what if the nodes were simply unrepairable for X time, and afterwards they repair quite fast? For example, 75% of the current time it takes to repair a node, it would just be "on fire" or something, and then the fire is extinguished and you can repair it but the repair takes 25% of the time it currently takes. Makes it so marines don't have to stand there holding E and falling asleep, and the power nodes are still important strategically.
<!--quoteo(post=1854657:date=Jun 19 2011, 11:53 PM:name=twincannon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Jun 19 2011, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be pretty neat if marines could play a minigame to help repair nodes faster.
Aliens, I dunno.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
NS2 isn't TF2. It isn't even anything like TF2 except for loose connections and common concepts. If you're looking to TF2 for how NS2 roles should function, you're doing it wrong.
If you think I'm saying anything about looking to TF2 for how NS2 roles should function, you're reading wrong.
So what does 'defence is fun because it's fun in TF2' mean exactly?
If you're referencing TF2 design in any capacity other than an off-topic comment saying you think the game is cool (or sucks), you're arguing wrong.
Whether RED has fun defending, whether BLU would enjoy slowly guarding some sort of bomb-shaped slowly moving front to RED's base, how map design or level design was executed and what inspired them to turn out like they did; none of that is relevant here. We're talking DI, Power Nodes, strategic raids, and support.
However spending time shooting up commander buildings or defending them, not really much fun, neccesary of course, but not much fun. You can do wonders to reduce this however by focussing the classes on direct attacks against enemy bases, and making the best defence be direct intervention by players.
Focussing the team on mutual turtling with arcs and pustules and waiting for the automatic effects to win the game is by far the wrong approach.
From what I've read and from what you've stated earlier, maybe you believed that pustules would be the same as DI is in the current build, and could be placed anywhere (or on gorge DI as you stated), which would result in different strategies such as ninja-gorging.
However, (I'm almost sure) DI is going to act like a vein in that it's all connected and branches out in lines, each pustule within a certain radius of another pustule.
Actually what "we're" talking about, in the context of this particular point, is whether defending things in a FPS can be fun. There was a broad generalization made that it wasn't, and I provided an example of that being incorrect. If you're getting anything else out of that exchange, you need to read more carefully.
Sorry, but I believe the original point was that it wasn't fun in NS, until someone had to compare a base asymmetric game to a base symmetric game. Two games with completely different styles of play.
And on the original point I stated it would work with marines not Kharaa, ranged based versus melee based thus asymmetry.
Whereas TF2 maps, team and gameplay is based on symettry, therefore it's obviously going to be better in and easier to handle in TF2.
Well I don't agree entirely since that would be too drastic of a change, however I would like to see Skulks and Lerks discouraged from targeting most structures directly, and instead encouraged to target Power Nodes.
Give Spikes and Bite Light damage and give more armor to any Structure that these lifeforms should be discouraged from targeting, or change them to Puncture and make the puncture damage multiplier more appealing?
That aside, I also think there are just too many Power Nodes. One per room? Forget realism, let's talk about practicality. Even if they are breaker boxes, you still wouldn't have one in every frakking room! And from a design perspective, having Power Nodes in the same room as other points of interest (Tech and Res nodes) increases the values of those rooms to the point of encouraging their fortification (TURTLE TOWN, my friends... turtle town); a bad idea, in my opinion.
Drastically reducing the time for repairing / destroying may lead to faster game play. I don't see a problem in this tweak. Not even the "marine goes out, alien comes in and destroys the node, marine comes in and repairs it and so on..." - argument. It would favor the marine play style of building bases and defend them. Roaming around in search for trouble is the alien part.
I think it is worth a try.
<!--quoteo(post=1852949:date=Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Facing a wall for 30seconds holding down one key simply isn't fun.
How can we overcome this?
1. Make chomping / repairing actually fun or at least not a pain in the ass.
2. Increase the reward for chomping / repairing a node. (Most other threads mentions this.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but if you read it all, you will see that I focused on the first point.
<!--quoteo(post=1852949:date=Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 15 2011, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first point may be more rewarding for the game play. Because having actually fun is better than having no fun for a specific time, but got a reward for this time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Solution: Shorten the interaction time with Power Nodes, without reducing the time for attacking/defending Power Nodes.
How? By changing the mechanism to one that is similar to bomb planting in Counter Strike.
The HP of each Power Node would be reduced (to around 1500 HP), so it can be destroyed in under 10 seconds by one alien. For the Marines, it will also take under 10 seconds to repair by one marine. Multiple aliens attacking (as well as multiple marines repairing) may be able speed up the destruction/repair of the Node.
However, the power will not be immediately severed/restored once the Node is destroyed/repaired. That will take around 10 seconds, due to the nature of the circuitry. Should the Node be destroyed/repaired before those 10 seconds can elapse, the power state will remain unchange.
For example, if the aliens destroy a power node, and marines successfully repair the damage within 10 seconds, then the power will not be lost. But if the marines fail to do so, they will have to defend the Node for 10 seconds after the completion of the repair for power to return.
I think these changes will make the game play involving Power Node a more satisfying experience.
If power nodes have less health, they would be too easy to take out in marine start. That gives the aliens a huge advantage.
When aliens destroy it, it would seem wierd that the power doesn't go out immediately. But it could go out(total blackout) for 1-5secs and then get back on(backup power generator?) and then the "backup power generator" could go out after 10-20 seconds and red lighting would appear.
I understand your suggestion, but I'm not really a fan of the idea.
I'd rather see that all power nodes, except marine start, is unpowered in the beginning of the game. And that alien start also gets a powernode!
I'll edit my suggestion.
Aliens, I dunno.
Let's start with the assumption that you have to bite, build or repair nodes at some point of the game. At that point would be far more interesting if the mapper had an ability to place some kind of 'tower of power' away from walls. You can think of it as an RT, except that instead of RT duties it performs as a power node.
If you think about NS1 RT building, biting and all that: You can use the RT as a cover, you can guard multiple doorways the way you see suitable, in case you get attacked you can try to dance around the node. The list goes on. Having the power node on the wall denies a lot of positioning, cover and visibility and forces you to take a very repetetive approach to the job. In short it lacks dynamics that could easily be there to make it way more interesting.
Aliens, I dunno.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could play hungry hungry hippos.