Please, no motion tracking.
Scythe
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
<div class="IPBDescription">Ever.</div>I've found something interesting, playing NS2 recently. I've found that as a skulk I am doing a lot of cool abushing and other sneaky stuff. Sneaky stuff that wouldn't be possible with motion tracking. The thrill of seeing a squad of marines pass underneath you as you hide between some pipes on the ceiling... it's pretty awesome.
I think that motion tracking, in the NS1 implementation, is a horrid awful thing that I hope never to see in NS2. It totally removes the function of stealth from the game.
--Scythe--
I think that motion tracking, in the NS1 implementation, is a horrid awful thing that I hope never to see in NS2. It totally removes the function of stealth from the game.
--Scythe--
Comments
If there will be MT in NS2 I'd much rather have it with a limited range and demand some kind of constant upkeep (cooldown, energy, res, whatever works). Right now it's way too easy and effective to use if you can get away with the research cost and time without falling far behind.
This limits the upgrade to a certain area, gives more options to spend team res in the late game and doesn't affect Alien territory in case Marines are pressing forward.
This limits the upgrade to a certain area, gives more options to spend team res in the late game and doesn't affect Alien territory in case Marines are pressing forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
Because I always felt like the NS1 motiontracker was kind of a wallhack.
Motion tracking will still be a viable strategy, if you have map control.
NS1 was basicly about map control, and NS2 will be even more about map control.
Motion tracking had a massive opportunity cost, it wasn't upgraded every game. It kept the marine tactical arsenal versatile. As a competitive commander, I had tactics that worked with specified timings of MT. I wouldn't want to see it go away.
I NS1, it takes lightning fast reactions to react to the game when aliens switch offense from one place to another.
If you thinking NS was about silence- and cloak-killing marines from behind, yeah okay nevermind.
provide this additional functionality.
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+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
And make sure aliens dont show up when sneaking cloaked. I still think that you sometimes show up when cloak-sniffing around.
Motion tracking had a massive opportunity cost, it wasn't upgraded every game. It kept the marine tactical arsenal versatile. As a competitive commander, I had tactics that worked with specified timings of MT. I wouldn't want to see it go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a strategical option, no doubt about that. However, I think it's far from optimal.
For example early game MT meant that you'd first have to invest on the upgrade and then hope your next few minutes are favourable or you're in bad shape against the booming alien economy.
Another problem I find in it that it's a very passive upgrade: The dynamics are cost and research time, but after that it just is. Aliens can't really snipe it out, marines don't have to make decisions regarding its use or anything. I think it could have a lot more complex dialogue between the teams than it had in NS1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I NS1, it takes lightning fast reactions to react to the game when aliens switch offense from one place to another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is actually partitially why I don't like the everpresent MT. For example baseerushing was nearly cut away from the alien arsenal in many situations because the marines simply saw it coming a mile away. It's giving you half of the benefits of map control without requiring you to commit or risk overextending yourself.
Run it like an Aliens-style motion tracker, then.
It's something you have in your inventory, which you actually need to have in your hand (instead of a weapon) to provide a localized benefit (the "constant upkeep" is an unarmed soldier, with the benefit disappearing should he pull out a weapon, the "limited range" being a bubble nearby that it generates the effect within). If the soldier holding the motion tracker is the only one to get HUD updates regarding alien positions, he'd have to communicate their location to others... "firing" the motion tracker could turn on that laser pointer marines theoretically have mounted to their helmets, alternate fire might say "Over there!" to get more attention (and help people without voice comms keep up with the fight), indicating to your teammates that you've got something on motion tracking and it's in <i>that vent</i>...
It could be an equipment upgrade purchased from the armory by an individual soldier, along the lines of a shotgun or flamethrower, or a researched item so it shows up in people's inventory like hand grenades used to... either way, the point would be that someone in the squad is trading combat effectiveness for forewarning of incoming aliens, and needs to keep doing so during a fight if they want to keep that advantage.
+1 to the idea that Power nodes influence MT
+1 to power nodes. Finally a REAL reason to repair and destroy them.
+1 to adv obs having a certain MT range.
Both options are pretty solid. I like the first more because power nodes are my least favorite part of this game. They take a minute to nomnomnom or a minute to repair. I'd rather just take down the RT and waste their 10 res over and over. But if it took away MT in that area, then it would be a minute well spent.
This would kinda balance out the whole wall hack debate. Marines now have MT on their turf which is easily destroyable by aliens killing nodes. And Aliens have MT on theirs which is now going to be relatively easy for marines to kill via pustles.
an implementation similar to the ones in "Aliens" - but - with no visual indicator, only sound bleeps. 180 degrees in front of you and an appropriate max distance - sound direction relevant. Individual purchase in the armory - doesn't replace anything but costs PR.
I always loved the suspenseful tracking in the AvP games, but when you got used to it, it was too easy to find and kill any alien unless he stayed perfectly still.
edit: or, perhaps replace it with a tracer dart upgrade for the pistol or rifle. Like parasite but for marines
an implementation similar to the ones in "Aliens" - but - with no visual indicator, only sound bleeps. 180 degrees in front of you and an appropriate max distance - sound direction relevant. Individual purchase in the armory - doesn't replace anything but costs PR.
I always loved the suspenseful tracking in the AvP games, but when you got used to it, it was too easy to find and kill any alien unless he stayed perfectly still.
edit: or, perhaps replace it with a tracer dart upgrade for the pistol or rifle. Like parasite but for marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great idea. After you get the research, marines can buy an optional sensor package for their main gun. Just straight ripoff aliens. Only works when the aliens are moving. I'd even go for the visual indicator so long as it was that retro-low-tech look from Aliens. It wouldn't be that OP since it's 2D.
Really like this idea. It could be like a small visor coming over the HUD which shows some very basic info. Shouldn't be a match for alien vision (which isn't that good anyway in my opinion).
You are also forgetting the fact that aliens can have scent of fear, parasites and now infestation-SOF aswell. I don't see the problem for same kind of abilities for marines, given that they have less mobility and tactical positioning is even more important.
However before late tech multiple gate defending against multiple fast fades, get very hard very fast. I'd rather have fast fades requiring quick response from the marines using MT than no MT and slower fades for example. In NS1, marines could easily lose a gate if a marine doesn't watch his Motion Tracking. If there was no MT, this could be balanced by crippling fade mobility but is this the way we want to go?
MT does promote tactical thinking because you can coordinate tactics that are impractical without it, like seeing patterns in fade movement and positioning yourself on the path. A player using MT could sneak up a gate to enemy hive aswell.
I'm personally open to different implementations of same idea but I'd like to see it in the game.
Yes it wouldn't be as generally useful as alien vision. I was thinking it'd be sort of like thermal vision, the world at large would become very muted and blurred together in shades of blue, whereas moving objects become bright reddish white. It would allow you to pick out aliens in pitch black rooms if they move, but it would be detrimental in areas where you can see normally because stationary aliens would actually be harder to see.
Depending on how well you could program it, you could also make things like moving fans or suchlike peg the tracker, and possibly particle effects, to add clutter.
Motion tracker is a counter to the skulks high-speed-mobility (it's the only lifeform that can leap, although maybe the fades invisible-flying super saiyan mode is similar) and small "harder to hit" size (well it's smaller then a fade so that must count as an advantage). I guess it can be said that skulks have more going for them so they don't have to play stealthy to be successful (early game only).
Also i think the devs want you to use res, go fade, lerk, onos, etc to counter the marine equipment unlocks. But i don't think they want you to stockpile resources due to playing 75% of the game as a stealth-skulk so you can play the last 25% as a onos.
Also aliens get predator-vision-mode for free :P
I'd agree with adding it in IF it only worked for one marine, and took up a weapon slot (as noted above), to avoid extending rambos' lifespans from the .5 seconds it should be. Verbal communication to squadmates and a laser pointer would be preferred. HUD-sharing at a given distance would be as far as I'd accept. Of course, both with a very limited sensor range.
Yeah, I'm definitely fine if they find some good solution for it. It's not that bad of an upgrade by nature, but the design has to be good or it goes over the top.
I think one option is also making it more of a sonar. General sound bleeps give you awarness that something is approaching at certain speed and direction, but it doesn't give away the exact position of a skulk in the ceiling for example. I don't know if that would be effective enough to justfiy the upgrade costs and such though.
<i>Everything</i> is a counter to the skulk. Harsh language counters skulks with only marginally less effectiveness than the rifle.
I don't really think marines need a specific counter to skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1854308:date=Jun 18 2011, 07:24 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 18 2011, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if that would be effective enough to justfiy the upgrade costs and such though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the fun things about the game is that you quite quickly run out of stuff to research.
This will still be the case even when the jetpack/exo and related technology is in I'm sure.
So it doesn't need to be that effective, you quite quickly reach a point in the game where you can just unlock everything as quickly as possible. I don't know whether that's intended but it's the way it works.
Of course you can always cut the cost if it proves only a little useful.
I don't particularly like making it even more of a defensive upgrade. MT is already a nightmare when you need to break the marine map presence, because any alien attempt of grouping up can be responded by marines phasing in before the aliens can even attack. That's where at least I've got the biggest issues with the NS1 MT. On offensive marine play it's manageable even if a bit tricky.
That is, if it's moving.
You're referring to NS1 entirely. NS2 doesn't have Motion Tracking, so we can both only speculate, but since you could presumably disable MT in that area by destroying the Obs, and the Obs is a fairly weak structure, I don't see this becoming a major imbalance, just a challenge.
<!--quoteo(post=1854328:date=Jun 18 2011, 04:42 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Jun 18 2011, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO, I'd like a different approach to MT, something like target acquisition when within vision. It's not auto-aim per say, but the motion tracking blip would follow the target when within 90 degrees arc in front of you. So, as long as you can keep your target in sight, you can easily determine its position.
That is, if it's moving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This could work as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1854344:date=Jun 18 2011, 10:14 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 18 2011, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're referring to NS1 entirely. NS2 doesn't have Motion Tracking, so we can both only speculate, but since you could presumably disable MT in that area by destroying the Obs, and the Obs is a fairly weak structure, I don't see this becoming a major imbalance, just a challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's probably fair to say Bacillus meant NS1 MT was a very defensive ability and the idea quoted would be <i>even more</i> defensive. As in, has no offensive use. Bleh.
Something like an upgrade that grants marines an NS1-style obs MT aura that isn't too big would encourage offensive play and the in-combat advantage of MT without the ridiculous map control. Knowing where ambushing aliens were on the other side of a door but no further.
If skulks/alien team in general eventually end up having the same progression as they did in NS1 (ambush early-game, leap transforms to kamikaze assault "swarm" unit mid-game, xenocide even more so late-game) then it wouldn't become overpowered as the marines rounded out the rest of their upgrades heading into mid-game like it does in NS1. I hope that makes sense.
tl;dr early-game not overpowered due to lacking armor/firepower upgrades, mid-game onwards not overpowered because it doesn't automatically gift marines map control and becomes less useful because the style of attack of the aliens changes. I imagine it would be a terrible upgrade vs fades, for example.
I do like the idea of an alternative greater scouting/info tech path for marines. Like not just using the Obs for phasegates and the occasional scan. An early PG/Scan/MT (maybe even extra MACs?[greater energy regeneration of all structures as an upgrade?]) playstyle where you forego brute strength of armor/weapon/armory upgrades. It would definitely need careful tuning to encourage marines to play offensively.
Mixed into all this you'd get the whole obs is better against SC, arms lab better against DC and so on. Marines having viable alternatives in tech path and getting to pick was something I felt wasn't really a strong a part of NS1 gameplay as it could have been that could be emphasised in NS2.
One marine leaves base.
One marine is ambushed by a skulk and dies.
Two marines leave base.
First marine is ambushed by a skulk, second marine kills skulk.
Commander drops medpack for first marine.
Two marines carry on their merry way.
<b>Not</b>:
One omnipercipient marine leaves base.
One marine kills all skulks.
--Scythe--
They lose it when they die of course