Motion tracking just forces the late game into less ambush-style tactics. I'm a kharaa at heart, and I have no problem with it. At that stage you're swarming together with higher lifeforms.
It does seem a little unfair for aliens to have all these ways of tracking marines, when there's no way of doing that for marines save for scanner sweep. So SOMETHING needs to exist. Maybe it needs to be a limited form of Motion Tracking.
[edit]
If you just put it in a limited range of observatories, that would give the commander more places to spend team resources late game, killing two birds with one stone.
<!--quoteo(post=1854344:date=Jun 18 2011, 11:14 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 18 2011, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're referring to NS1 entirely. NS2 doesn't have Motion Tracking, so we can both only speculate, but since you could presumably disable MT in that area by destroying the Obs, and the Obs is a fairly weak structure, I don't see this becoming a major imbalance, just a challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Mu answered most of it.
I don't know if NS2 makes it different somehow, but I'm not too fond of the idea of destroying buildings to get the MT down. It's a little similar situation as 'No problem, just destroy the PGs'. When marines have phasegates and ability to see you approach or group up it becomes very difficult to land any actual damage on buildings.
One thing that may help is the new alien res model that hopefully allows aliens to survive the late game better, which then again makes marine turtling a lot less viable. However, that doesn't make a defensive MT anything more of an intereting upgrade, it makes it just less useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1854299:date=Jun 18 2011, 07:38 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 18 2011, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes it wouldn't be as generally useful as alien vision. I was thinking it'd be sort of like thermal vision, the world at large would become very muted and blurred together in shades of blue, whereas moving objects become bright reddish white. It would allow you to pick out aliens in pitch black rooms if they move, but it would be detrimental in areas where you can see normally because stationary aliens would actually be harder to see.
Depending on how well you could program it, you could also make things like moving fans or suchlike peg the tracker, and possibly particle effects, to add clutter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
It'd make my life so much easier when I start working on the spiritual successor to Neotokyo ;)
I've always felt Motion Tracking should have been something an observatory offers ONLY within its radius, like how the Sensor Tower works in Starcraft 2. If you want the whole map to be covered with MT, you'd have to space out and cover the whole map with observatories. It would also make destroying/protecting the obs much more important with strategic value.
I love the fact the aliens can now ambush in NS2. :D
I'd rather have the motion tracker take the grenade launcher slot on the rifle, which means if you get a motion tracker, you can't use any weapon but the vanilla rifle. It's also a nice homage to Aliens.
Aliens moving on infestation shouldn't get tracked. Aliens sneaking shouldn't get tracked. (Like in NS1) Rather slow update rate for MT "sweeps". (Like in NS1, maybe even slower)
Overall motion tracking (with that i also mean the DI "free parasite") should go.
The fog of war is an important thing for strategy games, and should get more attention... Im playing a lot league of legends, and this meta game of warding, counter warding working together(communication) to get an overview what the enemy is doing, or could be planning is a great addition to gameplay.
In ns you can get this overview for free(a few observatorys and spam scan, or DI), and the only problem is to communicate it to your team - because the tools are not working right. (see my global waypoint idea in the suggestions forum)
<!--quoteo(post=1854521:date=Jun 19 2011, 05:43 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 19 2011, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall motion tracking (with that i also mean the DI "free parasite") should go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you still in support for regular parasite? If so, then would you not want to balance it up with the marines having the ability to "parasite" their enemies. Just call it tagging or chipping, some sort of mechanical version of it to equal out?
I agree that the NS1 wall hacks tracking was way too powerful and removed the "stealthy" fun part of the game. however I think If there was a cheap upgrade at the obs, which allowed players to see motion tracking in certain radius (about the size of a tech point room) That would be reasonable. So the Commander could spend 10-15 resources on a scan in a room. and during the duration of the scan marines could "motion track" units in said room, and possibly the adjacent hallways.(could just be an upgrade to the scan itself. Call it Bio-Scan or something, costs a little more but has a decent radius and lasts for ~30 seconds-a minute, marines could see or "motion track" lifeforms in that room for that duration, there would have to be a cool-down on scans though, maybe 1 bio-scan per 4-5 minutes per observatory, would be good for clearing out vulnerable hives and team pushes. Comm's could use the attraction of a scan to bring teammates into the same area making marines work together.)
Free parasite should also go, skulks para-siting is an important part of the game, and kind of the "grind it out work" of the lower-lifeform players, just like how marines haev to build and repair stuff, skulks should be running around parasiting things, I dont like the idea of a "Free parasite", the infestation shouldn't have to be an advantage in itself other than being able to build on it, and the fact that the lights will probably be out by then anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1854521:date=Jun 19 2011, 06:43 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 19 2011, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall motion tracking (with that i also mean the DI "free parasite") should go.
The fog of war is an important thing for strategy games, and should get more attention... Im playing a lot league of legends, and this meta game of warding, counter warding working together(communication) to get an overview what the enemy is doing, or could be planning is a great addition to gameplay.
In ns you can get this overview for free(a few observatorys and spam scan, or DI), and the only problem is to communicate it to your team - because the tools are not working right. (see my global waypoint idea in the suggestions forum)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a bit of a difference between motion tracking and the way DI works.
DI only works where you grow DI, and as DI will be killable with any weapon in the future, and subsequently quite easy to control with something as simple as a sentry gun, it should be far less of a problem.
Additionally marines aren't stealth based, they're firepower based, they win by shooting all the aliens, not by being more mobile than them and getting around them and so on.
For me upgrades like silence, cloak and MT should be removed from the game because they took more than they gave. There is reason why I never take silence in NS: it takes away skill from art of ambushing, it other words it replace skill of positioning and game sense with artificial help. Same goes for MT, it is just cheap way to buy game sense. It is skill in itself to know where your enemies are, you shouldn't be able to just buy it.
<!--quoteo(post=1854687:date=Jun 20 2011, 06:54 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jun 20 2011, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me upgrades like silence, cloak and MT should be removed from the game because they took more than they gave. There is reason why I never take silence in NS: it takes away skill from art of ambushing, it other words it replace skill of positioning and game sense with artificial help. Same goes for MT, it is just cheap way to buy game sense. It is skill in itself to know where your enemies are, you shouldn't be able to just buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Refraining from using an ability/resource because it's 'dishonorable' will get you killed when it doesn't need to. That doesn't sound like skill at all to me.
Imo it should be a spell that has something like a 1 min countdown while being active for 30 seconds. It only works for a marine in a range of x meters and only in x° of field of view. So the inner circle of the screen is where MT would work, this means that the marines need to scan their surroundings constantly while using it.
I'm sure this has already been said but motion tracking in NS1 was balanced so that if aliens walked they wouldn't be revealed by it.
So if it went into the game and had the same implementation as NS1 all you'd have to do is shift-walk to your ambush spot and it would probably be even MORE effective since marines would ease up with motion tracking.
VonDoomKnee deep in the latencyJoin Date: 2009-10-08Member: 68989Members, Reinforced - Shadow
OP, I beg the differ, sensory chambers spotted marines even if they were standing still, cloaked all friendly units and structures, and you can counter MT by walking.
MT should either be a piece of equipment that is allowed once or twice depending on player size to emphasize in squads and also giving the marines interesting scenarios such as defending the MT'ing marine. Or Obs towers like function around power nodes so for Aliens to leave power nodes alone would give away their position.
Sometimes I can see aliens on my minimap...not sure if that's a bug or not
<!--quoteo(post=1854193:date=Jun 18 2011, 04:55 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jun 18 2011, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see that motion tracking was limited to powered areas only, this would also give powernodes a more important role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
<!--quoteo(post=1854946:date=Jun 21 2011, 07:01 AM:name=VonDoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VonDoom @ Jun 21 2011, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP, I beg the differ, sensory chambers spotted marines even if they were standing still, cloaked all friendly units and structures, and you can counter MT by walking.
I dare say that MT stays, good day to you sir!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty much the smartest thing i've seen written on these forums all day i agree
<!--quoteo(post=1855124:date=Jun 21 2011, 03:55 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pretty much the smartest thing i've seen written on these forums all day i agree<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, seeing as the mod locked the previous thread and linked to this one (even though it hasn't been touched since the introduction to Shade [lol]), I completely agree with you and the statement you quoted.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
The Marines need a modified version of "Motion Tracking", now that aliens have powerful cloaking and camouflage.
I would suggest Motion Tracking to be implemented as an active ability (that costs energy), that is centered around the Observatory, with limited range (~12, about half the length of marine start), but has a longer duration than Scan (~20 seconds?).
The purpose is to allow Marines to keep their base clear from aliens, at the opportunity cost of Scan and Beacon, but is more energy efficient than Scanning their own base all the time. What does everyone think?
Well since the other thread was locked i guess i'll restate my suggestion here.
MT should go back in, but be limited to powered rooms. Aliens already have their own form of "motion tracking" with infestation, which serves as their home turf. For the marines MT will come back to provide home field advantage to the marines in powered rooms, making defending and repairing power nodes a bigger priority. This will also apply to areas powered by a power pack, since power packs almost always exist were marine presence is already firmly established, such as a marine outpost in reactor in Summit. There wouldn't really be able to exploit the power pack mechanic since in order to sneak a power pack behind alien lines, the commander blows 15 res, and possibly another 5 res to get a MAC to construct the power pack, and if the alien team is oblivious enough to not notice it, then the marine team deserves to have the additional recon.
<!--quoteo(post=1854946:date=Jun 21 2011, 06:01 AM:name=VonDoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VonDoom @ Jun 21 2011, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP, I beg the differ, sensory chambers spotted marines even if they were standing still, cloaked all friendly units and structures, and you can counter MT by walking.
I dare say that MT stays, good day to you sir!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory chambers didn't cover the entire map at all times and required a gorge to walk to the site to place it. It didn't show the entire enemy team on the minimap either, and you can counter cloak with a scan.
Way to dig up a 2 week old thread, even tho there's another thread about motion tracking on the first page created the 6th of august. Now we can add 2 extra pages of whining about nothing.
Nothing was wrong with motion tracking in ns1 for either side unless you're a <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*Be polite. -Talesin*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1868001:date=Aug 9 2011, 11:00 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Aug 9 2011, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Way to dig up a 2 week old thread, even tho there's another thread about motion tracking on the first page created the 6th of august. Now we can add 2 extra pages of whining about nothing.
Nothing was wrong with motion tracking in ns1 for either side unless you're a <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*Be polite. -Talesin*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can blame the mod for that one, the other thread got locked. Presumably because he had already created this thread discussing how he disliked MT. Although the other thread was probably more relevant.
I love the idea of tying Motion Tracking in with the power node system. +1
I think there should be 2 versions of Motion tracking.
1. Audio component (Vanilla Marines) eg: The audio beep from Aliens. Closer they are the quicker it beeps (Mmmm can you say Atmos-fear) Researched at obs. Personal Res Purchase from armory.
2. Audio/Visual Component upgrade tied to Exo Suit. Must research Exo Suits first. Then Advanced Motion Tracking. It's a great upgrade and for 25 personal res you can have wall hacks with bonus armour.
<!--quoteo(post=1868006:date=Aug 10 2011, 07:40 PM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Aug 10 2011, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can blame the mod for that one, the other thread got locked. Presumably because he had already created this thread discussing how he disliked MT. Although the other thread was probably more relevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all he did was say "+1" and some <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->things<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> about the other thead getting locked. Giving birth to more bright argument. In new zealand we called this <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*Be polite. -Talesin*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
It does seem a little unfair for aliens to have all these ways of tracking marines, when there's no way of doing that for marines save for scanner sweep. So SOMETHING needs to exist. Maybe it needs to be a limited form of Motion Tracking.
[edit]
If you just put it in a limited range of observatories, that would give the commander more places to spend team resources late game, killing two birds with one stone.
I think Mu answered most of it.
I don't know if NS2 makes it different somehow, but I'm not too fond of the idea of destroying buildings to get the MT down. It's a little similar situation as 'No problem, just destroy the PGs'. When marines have phasegates and ability to see you approach or group up it becomes very difficult to land any actual damage on buildings.
One thing that may help is the new alien res model that hopefully allows aliens to survive the late game better, which then again makes marine turtling a lot less viable. However, that doesn't make a defensive MT anything more of an intereting upgrade, it makes it just less useful.
Depending on how well you could program it, you could also make things like moving fans or suchlike peg the tracker, and possibly particle effects, to add clutter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
It'd make my life so much easier when I start working on the spiritual successor to Neotokyo ;)
I love the fact the aliens can now ambush in NS2. :D
Aliens sneaking shouldn't get tracked. (Like in NS1)
Rather slow update rate for MT "sweeps". (Like in NS1, maybe even slower)
The fog of war is an important thing for strategy games, and should get more attention...
Im playing a lot league of legends, and this meta game of warding, counter warding working together(communication) to get an overview what the enemy is doing, or could be planning is a great addition to gameplay.
In ns you can get this overview for free(a few observatorys and spam scan, or DI), and the only problem is to communicate it to your team - because the tools are not working right. (see my global waypoint idea in the suggestions forum)
Are you still in support for regular parasite? If so, then would you not want to balance it up with the marines having the ability to "parasite" their enemies. Just call it tagging or chipping, some sort of mechanical version of it to equal out?
Free parasite should also go, skulks para-siting is an important part of the game, and kind of the "grind it out work" of the lower-lifeform players, just like how marines haev to build and repair stuff, skulks should be running around parasiting things, I dont like the idea of a "Free parasite", the infestation shouldn't have to be an advantage in itself other than being able to build on it, and the fact that the lights will probably be out by then anyways.
The fog of war is an important thing for strategy games, and should get more attention...
Im playing a lot league of legends, and this meta game of warding, counter warding working together(communication) to get an overview what the enemy is doing, or could be planning is a great addition to gameplay.
In ns you can get this overview for free(a few observatorys and spam scan, or DI), and the only problem is to communicate it to your team - because the tools are not working right. (see my global waypoint idea in the suggestions forum)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a bit of a difference between motion tracking and the way DI works.
DI only works where you grow DI, and as DI will be killable with any weapon in the future, and subsequently quite easy to control with something as simple as a sentry gun, it should be far less of a problem.
Additionally marines aren't stealth based, they're firepower based, they win by shooting all the aliens, not by being more mobile than them and getting around them and so on.
Refraining from using an ability/resource because it's 'dishonorable' will get you killed when it doesn't need to. That doesn't sound like skill at all to me.
It only works for a marine in a range of x meters and only in x° of field of view. So the inner circle of the screen is where MT would work, this means that the marines need to scan their surroundings constantly while using it.
Otherwise I agree, no full MT, no vision from DI, keep parasite.
So if it went into the game and had the same implementation as NS1 all you'd have to do is shift-walk to your ambush spot and it would probably be even MORE effective since marines would ease up with motion tracking.
I dare say that MT stays, good day to you sir!
Sometimes I can see aliens on my minimap...not sure if that's a bug or not
+1
I dare say that MT stays, good day to you sir!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much the smartest thing i've seen written on these forums all day i agree
Well, seeing as the mod locked the previous thread and linked to this one (even though it hasn't been touched since the introduction to Shade [lol]), I completely agree with you and the statement you quoted.
+1
You should still be able to ambush people, it would just be harder as you would need to be still before you pounced.
I would suggest Motion Tracking to be implemented as an active ability (that costs energy), that is centered around the Observatory, with limited range (~12, about half the length of marine start), but has a longer duration than Scan (~20 seconds?).
The purpose is to allow Marines to keep their base clear from aliens, at the opportunity cost of Scan and Beacon, but is more energy efficient than Scanning their own base all the time. What does everyone think?
MT should go back in, but be limited to powered rooms. Aliens already have their own form of "motion tracking" with infestation, which serves as their home turf. For the marines MT will come back to provide home field advantage to the marines in powered rooms, making defending and repairing power nodes a bigger priority. This will also apply to areas powered by a power pack, since power packs almost always exist were marine presence is already firmly established, such as a marine outpost in reactor in Summit. There wouldn't really be able to exploit the power pack mechanic since in order to sneak a power pack behind alien lines, the commander blows 15 res, and possibly another 5 res to get a MAC to construct the power pack, and if the alien team is oblivious enough to not notice it, then the marine team deserves to have the additional recon.
I dare say that MT stays, good day to you sir!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory chambers didn't cover the entire map at all times and required a gorge to walk to the site to place it. It didn't show the entire enemy team on the minimap either, and you can counter cloak with a scan.
Nothing was wrong with motion tracking in ns1 for either side unless you're a <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*Be polite. -Talesin*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Nothing was wrong with motion tracking in ns1 for either side unless you're a <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*Be polite. -Talesin*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can blame the mod for that one, the other thread got locked. Presumably because he had already created this thread discussing how he disliked MT. Although the other thread was probably more relevant.
I think there should be 2 versions of Motion tracking.
1. Audio component (Vanilla Marines) eg: The audio beep from Aliens. Closer they are the quicker it beeps (Mmmm can you say Atmos-fear)
Researched at obs. Personal Res Purchase from armory.
2. Audio/Visual Component upgrade tied to Exo Suit. Must research Exo Suits first. Then Advanced Motion Tracking.
It's a great upgrade and for 25 personal res you can have wall hacks with bonus armour.
all he did was say "+1" and some <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->things<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> about the other thead getting locked. Giving birth to more bright argument.
In new zealand we called this <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*Be polite. -Talesin*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->