Can we please take sentries out of the game?
TrueVeritas
Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members
Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members
I'm tired of 2 hour games because a commander thinks random sentries is better than shotguns or armor 1. I have never seen them be used in a way that pushes the game forward.
It's NS1 all over again.
Edit: I'm complaining because they suck, not because they're overpowered.
It's NS1 all over again.
Edit: I'm complaining because they suck, not because they're overpowered.
Comments
The ability to defend an area without requiring players to constantly stand guard over it is critical to the RTS element, marines do not have the ability to control the entire map the entire time, they need deterrants like sentries to delay aliens, to block solitary incursions, and to delay larger pushes so that they have time to react.
So no, we can't take sentries out of the game.
On a serious note, it's only the beta and we have a little while to go before I personally believe they start changing structures and their attacks. We still don't have heavies, jetpacks or onos, three things that could drastically impact a game. We also still have a lot of lag issues.
1. IP
2. Armory
3. TF
4. Turrets (usually 2-4)
Then move out for resources.
NS2 is like everyone run for resources while joe stays as base monkey-defender-superhero-human turret farm.
The ability to defend an area without requiring players to constantly stand guard over it is critical to the RTS element, marines do not have the ability to control the entire map the entire time, they need deterrants like sentries to delay aliens, to block solitary incursions, and to delay larger pushes so that they have time to react.
So no, we can't take sentries out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you misunderstood me.
Sentries are worthless.
No, I take it back, they're not worthless. They're good at keeping skulks out of your base if placed cleverly.
So are marines though! And guess how much res marines cost!
1. IP
2. Armory
3. TF
4. Turrets (usually 2-4)
Then move out for resources.
NS2 is like everyone run for resources while joe stays as base monkey-defender-superhero-human turret farm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually sentries make very good offensive tools as well, they're quick to build, cheap, and small, they are very good if you drop them in a location you're holding for siege guns, they also work very nicely for securing a room you just reclaimed and preventing an alien counterattack until you can properly build up the room.
Using a combination of sentries and arcs along with marine support I managed to push aliens back from three hives to one the other day, difficult fighting and we lost rooms a couple of times (mostly due to crappy alerts, kinda hard to play without those UWE) but certainly effective.
I think this needs to be beat into everyone's brains.
Marines are attacking early game while aliens are defending. The further the game goes along, the more the roles swap. It is EXACTLY the same as NS1, people just don't understand balance because marines can't aim.
One sentry (not including the robo facility) costs 15 resources. That means an extractor needs to mine for 2 minutes to pay off ONE sentry.
Sentries are worthless.
No, I take it back, they're not worthless. They're good at keeping skulks out of your base if placed cleverly.
So are marines though! And guess how much res marines cost!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think marines should have to stay in base to guard, instead of going out and playing the game? Seems like a pretty boring idea imho. Would you like to volunteer to be the team-marine-sentry-at-base?
Turrets are meant to protect marine areas of interest. Not to the point that they're impenetrable but to the point that marines can have time to go defend an area while the turrets provide some protection. Currently turrets can be spammed everywhere, and I would venture a guess to say there will be limits in some capacity eventually. Furthermore, an onos up against a couple of turrets (even five or more) isn't going to be that big of a deal. Once they're implemented and games drag out, turret farms will become less effective. They're very effective right now because aliens can't go above fade.
Just hold your horses for now.
Sentries are worthless.
No, I take it back, they're not worthless. They're good at keeping skulks out of your base if placed cleverly.
So are marines though! And guess how much res marines cost!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again your commander is an idiot. Sentries are actually pretty powerful if you place them properly. They need long hallways, overlapping coverage, all that jazz. Sentries can make or break an area's strategic value. Summit's marine start for example sucks because it's really hard to get good sentry coverage in it. On the other hand, heliport is really good because it's got that nice long corridor with a staircase at the end of it, you put a couple of sentries pointing down there and one further back covering them and it really puts the block on aliens attacking. Similarly crevice is awesome because while it has no power and lerks kind of dominate in it most of the time, if you put sentries on those little pillars and cover the doorway and crevice in general, you can completely murder almost anything that comes in because those pillars give sentries amazingly good coverage.
Another good place is that corridor north of surface access, put sentries angled down there and it makes surface access a good place to defend, and this is all just on their own, if you use them in support of your marines they get really good. A couple of sentries covering a marine push makes them way more effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1856215:date=Jun 25 2011, 06:57 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 25 2011, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One sentry (not including the robo facility) costs 15 resources. That means an extractor needs to mine for 2 minutes to pay off ONE sentry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It costs 10, actually, and you need robotics factories anyway for macs and arcs, also they cost T res which you usually have in abundance if you are doing it properly and have secured the neccesary res to fund your marines and expansion. Best thing to do when your marines attack is set up a little outpost near where they're attacking from. First thing you want is an armory, second thing you want is either sentry guns or a phase gate. In a sense they're actually free, as there isn't anything else you can spend the money on after a certain point.
Turrets are meant to protect marine areas of interest. Not to the point that they're impenetrable but to the point that marines can have time to go defend an area while the turrets provide some protection. Currently turrets can be spammed everywhere, and I would venture a guess to say there will be limits in some capacity eventually. Furthermore, an onos up against a couple of turrets (even five or more) isn't going to be that big of a deal. Once they're implemented and games drag out, turret farms will become less effective. They're very effective right now because aliens can't go above fade.
Just hold your horses for now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Commander can kill one skulk attacking base. If necessary marines can easily run back. Just like NS1, remember that game? Eventually on most servers people got the idea that turret farms weren't necessary to defend your base from one skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1856217:date=Jun 25 2011, 12:59 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 25 2011, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A couple of sentries covering a marine push makes them way more effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so marines can die repeatedly while trying to build stationary structures while getting killed by skulks.
Derp.
Derp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently your marines suck too, sentries take about 10 seconds to build on your own, a group of three or four marines (you are working in groups aren't you?) can get a pair of sentries up in seconds. I know marines aren't really the smartest things in the world, but most of them are capable of figuring out when is a good time to build and when is a good time to shoot.
The only reason Tres stacks up is because bad marines are incapable of winning games. The only way aliens win right now are if they get a second hive up. Turrets don't help you get the second hive down.
Did you play NS1? Can you maintain at least a 3-1 ratio on marines right now? Do you understand that marine gameplay right now is kill first hive and push to alien start?
I don't even know what else to say because I don't think you've ever seen a decent player in NS2. You seem to think all marines are inept and require stationary aimbotting defenses to win the game.
Of course they do. It's actually quite similar to NS1, marines lack any sort of tanking ability right now, so the best way to take out a dug in hive is to roll up a couple of ARCs, and park your marines next to them with an armory and some sentries and have them hold there until the arcs clear out the crags and hydras and whips, then push them out of the outpost and into the room with the arcs to finish off the now defenceless hive. Same way you did it in NS1. Sentries make holding that posiiton much easier, same as they did in NS1. And also they help with blunting any alien counterattack once you take the hive back, because they go up so quick. First thing to do when the hive is about to go down is to send a mac to fix the powernode, then drop some sentries to keep the room safe while you build a CC and some IPs and a PG and so on.
I'm sorry but...what??
To me it just sounds like you usually play aliens and you're pissed about turret spams. And yes, I remember NS1. I've had it for 8 years, bud.
Turrets are necessary. You make it sound like running around the map as a marine is simplistic, which I think almost everyone would disagree with you on. Are you seriously suggesting marines at heliport should run back to main base if two or three skulks attack it? If there's no phase gate, you could easily lose your base in the time it takes to run back.
And I don't know what servers you play/played on NS1, but I see turret farms all the time including at main bases even now, and it's been that way for years.
Again, they're necessary. I don't want to spend half a game running around defending every place I own because a couple of aliens are butt-hurt about getting beat by turrets. Even with larger player counts that's a lot area to cover and completely unrealistic. They're not meant to completely defend entire areas, but they are meant to slow down enemies in time for marines to make it there if necessary. I'm sorry you don't like turrets but they're not going anywhere, unless you think hydras and whips should say sayonara as well.
To me it just sounds like you usually play aliens and you're pissed about turret spams. And yes, I remember NS1. I've had it for 8 years, bud.
Turrets are necessary. You make it sound like running around the map as a marine is simplistic, which I think almost everyone would disagree with you on. Are you seriously suggesting marines at heliport should run back to main base if two or three skulks attack it? If there's no phase gate, you could easily lose your base in the time it takes to run back.
And I don't know what servers you play/played on NS1, but I see turret farms all the time including at main bases even now, and it's been that way for years.
Again, they're necessary. I don't want to spend half a game running around defending every place I own because a couple of aliens are butt-hurt about getting beat by turrets. Even with larger player counts that's a lot area to cover and completely unrealistic. They're not meant to completely defend entire areas, but they are meant to slow down enemies in time for marines to make it there if necessary. I'm sorry you don't like turrets but they're not going anywhere, unless you think hydras and whips should say sayonara as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should spend a bit less time playing on <bad> and g4b2s.
I don't even know what else to say because I don't think you've ever seen a decent player in NS2. You seem to think all marines are inept and require stationary aimbotting defenses to win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I know how it normally goes, but that isn't the only way to do it. I mean most of the reasoning behind that is precisely because it's hard to keep marines reinforced when they're that close to an alien hive. I mean phase gates help but they generally can't keep competitive numbers against retreating fades and waves of skulks. So that's why you stack the odds. Marines are good in groups so while 1 marine is a poor match for 1 alien most of the time, but 3 or 4 marines fighting on home turf are a more than 3 or 4 times as tough as 1. Give them armories to keep them healed and armed, give them phase gates to keep them reinforced, give them arcs to prevent them from having to go on the direct offensive, and give them sentries so that when a fade blinks into their face, they only need to land two shotgun blasts on it instead of three.
It is delightful to have marines who can just blow their way through a dozen aliens without blinking, but most of my players aren't able to do that, so I cheat, by forcing the aliens to fight against unfair odds. Like I said I played a marvellous game the other day where this exact approach allowed us to fight our way across half of summit, through two hives and we would have had alien start but the server broke and nobody could use the command functions or interact with objects or shoot aliens.
And perhaps you shouldn't make assumptions.
I'm still waiting for a legitimate response for what I said to you. Right now it seems like you're just QQ'ing about getting owned by turrets. My suggestions is get over it, because they're not going everywhere and most people would agree that they're necessary in some capacity.
I'm still waiting for a legitimate response for what I said to you. Right now it seems like you're just QQ'ing about getting owned by turrets. My suggestions is get over it, because they're not going everywhere and most people would agree that they're necessary in some capacity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't play aliens. In fact, I go marines and win roughly 99 percent of the games I play. Not TRYING to sound like an elitist prick (which I know I am), but that's the way it goes.
Who's making assumptions now?
Who's making assumptions now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, right? It doesn't make sense when people make assumptions. Really annoying...so I'm glad you caught on.
But now that you've admitted you sound like an elitist prick, which I was genuinely waiting for, we can get back to the point.
Still waiting for some understanding here. I win games all the time with turrets everywhere, and I win them without. It basically comes down to your commander and your team. If you really win 99% of the games you play, then just get over it. If you don't like the 2+ hour games, don't complain about it and wait until they implement bigger game changers like Onos and Heavies.
But now that you've admitted you sound like an elitist prick, which I was genuinely waiting for, we can get back to the point.
Still waiting for some understanding here. I win games all the time with turrets everywhere, and I win them without. It basically comes down to your commander and your team. If you really win 99% of the games you play, then just get over it. If you don't like the 2+ hour games, don't complain about it and wait until they implement bigger game changers like Onos and Heavies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sure! I win games with turrets too. Turrets don't equal automatic loss!
But that also doesn't mean they're still worthless.
The best part is? I remember around the time NS2 was announced (probably a few months later) Flayra was talking about the role of sentries in NS2. My buddy had an a huge fit since every decent NS1 player knows turrets were awful. I tried to explain to him that NS2 would be a different game and trying to complain about something without any context was futile.
Boy was I wrong! Not only is NS2 EXTREMELY similar to NS1, turrets are probably even MORE worthless. And the poorly-skilled community is just as delusional!
I was playing in a small game (2v2) and started off as the commander. I quickly dropped an armory and IP and researched shotties. My team mate pushed out and we capped two res nodes; at the same time I got out and built an arms lab and then spent the remaining res on armor 1 & 2 and an observatory. I left the comm chair to defend our res nodes and some time passed and the game became a 4v4 and we got a new comm during my defensive outings. The game continued and aliens dropped a hive at surface. I ran into surface and took out one skulk, two hydras, and a gorge before getting killed by a third skulk (I survived that long thanks to the two armor upgrades).
As the game progressed our position on the map steadily worsened. We locked down Heli but were unable to ever get Surface. The reason? No phase tech. No Armor 3. No weapons 1. What was our res used on? Turrets. So many turrets. Who was building them? The other half of our team. One other player and me managed to kill two fades and push into surface reliably several times. But soon the alien static defenses and tech built up, and we were unable to push past vent. Turrets literately lost us the game. There weren't even that many of them. but they cost us valuable time and res. Hours later we lost the game.
As it stands turrets are never the answer. It is TRUE that they defend things, etc, etc. But the cost for that and the time required never works out.
It's just build orders, armories are useless if you can't spawn, resource extractors are useless without armories to give you stuff to spend it on, weapon upgrades are useless without resources, expansions are useless without phase gates to move your marines into them. The game is based around progressing in the right order.
I suppose you could have difficulty with the weighting, you will spend an awful lot of money on turrets, and you will get fairly limited returns for that money. An armory where there is no armory, or a phase gate, or a robotics factory, or an IP, all of these are very very valuable for their price when you don't have one there, far moreso than a turret. So it might seem like turrets are worthless, but the point of turrets is you can place more of them.
Once you have an armory, building another armory next to it doesn't improve anything. So while the initial resource investment is incredibly good, you can only make it once. Whereas if you have a turret, building another one next to it makes that position about twice as hard to take, and another makes it three times harder, and that keeps going and going for a long time.
As you will always have more money than you can spend on armories and things, turrets are important, because they are things you can spend to get value anywhere, in any situation, not so for any other building. Money in the bank has no value, money on the field in the form of turrets does have value.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again this is poor commanding, not a problem with turrets...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BERP! Wrong answer.
But people are doing it. If you go on any public server, you are greeted by sentry farms. If NS2 is to cater for a wide range of skill sets, we need an expansion system that works for both Marines and Aliens.
In fact I do it on publics when the team fails to come up with an answer to the last hive, even with full upgrades.
<b>Why do we need turrets?</b>
Simple. Summit and maps like it are too big. If anyone played Rockdown in the early betas, they will remember the stalemates caused when turrets were useless.
Both teams would push clockwise round the map, taking each others rear ground, and because Aliens are a lot faster and Marines (more or less) need to secure all the tech points before they can begin the final assault, the game went on for hours.
Essentially we need them for both teams, because this game is about capturing ground. The RTS element is about area control, to a degree.
<b>What is wrong with turrets?</b>
This game is balanced wrongly for turrets. There seems to be a drive to balance them solely around 'damage'.
I have mentioned this many times before, but simple damage based balancing is poor, and does not support the idea of this being a 'team-play' game.
<b>What do I mean?</b>
If you balance things on damage, there is only so much you can do - but it only effects the 'individuals' game.
Games like L4D2 require that you keep 'reviving' your team mates, and whilst better guns are good - team mates are better.
Taking down structures is only balanced on damage. Effectively, the design element just keeps adding layers. Like NS1 did, and it drags out games.
Anyone remember building turret farms, and THEN electrifying it all?
It gets boring fast, as does taking down individual sentry after individual sentry with spores or bile bombs.
<b>What does this mean for turrets/stalemates?</b>
Why can't (for instance) you use a team-play system to take down structures. It promotes team-play, and would end stalemates.
<b>For Example:</b>
Why can't you make structures really powerful. But really weak when say, a Gorge is using ability X whilst a Skulk uses ability Y?
Or even, if a Gorge uses ability X, Lerk uses ability Y and Fade uses ability Z for an even more effective attack.
Can't spores, and bile bombs for instance combine to increase damage sustained to buildings - so that others can take them down VERY quickly.
<b>Overpowered?</b>
Nope, because it requires certain classes to work together, be in the same place and do the right thing at the right time.
So you can balance on situation, rather than all on damage.
<b>What would this mean?</b>
This means for instance, that sentries could be very powerful against individuals - but useless against effective team play.
I am still surprised to see that, in such a team based game, the devs are not supporting the idea of players 'having' to work together to complete a certain task.
L4D2 was a breakthrough game in how you communicate and play as a team.
Simple damage based game-play is imo, early 2000s and harks back to games like Q3 Arena.
The squad and communication system still needs big work as well, especially for marines.
Meaning that rather than simply saying 'get a bunch of dudes together and smash all the turrets', a very freeform goal which allows all sorts of aliens to work together and in all sorts of ways to kill them, being as killing stuff is what all the alien classes are designed to do, instead you make most of them irrelevant and introduce turrets that kill everything except their hard counter, and a hard counter which does nothing but kill turrets.
Oh yes that sounds like a marvellous improvement.
Also I don't think you actually read anything I wrote. In fact none of that seems at all relevant to the thread, I don't know what problem you're trying to solve or why it ties into what I or anyone else was saying about turrets.
Meaning that rather than simply saying 'get a bunch of dudes together and smash all the turrets', a very freeform goal which allows all sorts of aliens to work together and in all sorts of ways to kill them, being as killing stuff is what all the alien classes are designed to do, instead you make most of them irrelevant and introduce turrets that kill everything except their hard counter, and a hard counter which does nothing but kill turrets.
Oh yes that sounds like a marvellous improvement.
Also I don't think you actually read anything I wrote. In fact none of that seems at all relevant to the thread, I don't know what problem you're trying to solve or why it ties into what I or anyone else was saying about turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh, I give up. It's like I'm back to 2006 arguing with Smoodcroozn.
Same stuff, different game. 1-10 walker skulks trying to justify sentries!
Same stuff, different game. 1-10 walker skulks trying to justify sentries!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have any idea what he's on about feel free to chip in, as far as I can tell he seems to think they're overpowered or something, while you think they're entirely useless, I don't know why you'd be agreeing with him.
He's wrong about a few points, but I'm pretty sure in his mind turrets aren't overpowered, just boring. At least he played NS1 and remembers the days of turret farms and electrification.
By the way, I really hope electrification isn't in as well.
Look closely at this sentence:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For Example:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used this word, because in no way did a lay down a complete concept for a solution, just that damage based balance on its OWN is poor.
If I had it my way I would have:
Very powerful sentries, but more expensive that are near impossible to attack from the front unless classes work together to destroy them.
(This still provides X possibilities with the 5 classes that we will finally have, plus all the upgrades)
But that they still have a firing ARC so aliens can get in behind them, using vents or distraction tactics to do this.
The problem is that people think 'good design' is open and free, and allows '1000s' of possibilities in a free world where anything is possible.
It is often a poor misconception of what makes up a good game, which often has some very strict rules but just implements them in a way that makes players feel like they are in control.
Games like that are often boring. Have you ever played BF1942 on the larger maps, because bailing out a plane in the middle of the desert and having to run a 1000 yards before I can get anywhere is really lame.
Also, I don't think think turrets are over powered.
10+ in each room get in my way, I spend ages dropping them in rooms on publics because it seems that I need to have control of the whole map before we can win. Destroying them as aliens is monotonous and boring.
Generally speaking they lead to stalemates and lethargy, as do all the buildings that require aliens to stand round them mashing mouse 1 until every Marines structure has been taken down.
Which is why I am suggesting that team-work, or combined abilities could make a difference.
<b>Anyone remember UWE suggesting that a game would last around 20-30 minutes?</b>
Longer games are great, but not at an hour almost every time.
My point is that just saying 'it takes this much damage to kill one' is the easiest way, because all classes can do damage, all classes are built around doing damage, and getting more players together means a lot more damage.
I mean, what's the best thing your system can do? If you get enough players together of specific types, you can kill a turret farm.
Whereas the best thing the simple damage system can do, is if you get enough players together of any type, you can kill a turret farm.
The simple approach achieves the goal far better than the gimmicky one.