<!--quoteo(post=1856726:date=Jun 27 2011, 04:55 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 27 2011, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think you are getting it Chris. Sentries will never be balanced unless you take a different approach.
Instead you balance it on 'it is not powerful enough, so make it cheaper (which leads to spam) and more powerful'
In turn Aliens whine because 'it is too powerful, make them more expensive and less powerful'.
You don't get an even ground, which is why in TF2 the spy team mechanic works so bloody well, even when you have sentries that kill anything in front of them.
Nothing is balanced completely on damage, but overcomes it by using team-play abilities to balance things rather than going round in damage circles.
Or demoman, or more than 1 soldier, or sniper, or pyro + medic, or basically anything other than a team composed entirely of scouts. Your analogy isn't very good.
If making it more powerful and less expensive makes it overpowered against aliens, but currently it's too expensive and not powerful enough, then it is sort of neccesary that somewhere in between, you find a combination of power and cost which makes them balanced. Now we already know a few things, we know that 20 res is probably a bit too expensive, and we know that double power would probably make them unbreakable by anything short of an onos which is undesirable, so really, we only have to move it between 10 and 20 res, and current and 1.75 times damage. That is a pretty small area.
Now you won't shut everyone up, no, because people always whine about balance, it's just what people do, but you can, through the use of statistics, figure out what is empirically balanced, and what promotes the most engaging gameplay.
I find sentry spam more common in small games (5v5 or so), which really says to me that part of the problem is the small game size. When you've got 10 players per side, you can afford to have a couple of marines on "midfield," running around the areas you've got controlled solving the occasional sneaky skulk problem, but when your team only has 4 players who aren't inside a command chair, you lose 25% of your manpower every time someone has to go back and fix something... and that's assuming he's going to survive playing whack-a-skulk.
Electrification was a pain in the ass, sure, but what it accomplished was making it so that stray skulks in small games couldn't destroy a res node simply due to there not being someone available to stop them. The late game turret farming we see is due to an annoying combination of needing more turrets to actually get anything done, not having anything else to spend Tres on, small team size combined with large map area, and not-easy-to-kill fades.
Hm... an idea. We could bring back electrification but with a change: it does a negligible amount/no damage, but it impairs energy regeneration... basically, it slows down skulks chewing up res nodes or whatever else ends up being electrified, but doesn't actually kill them, and doesn't slow down lerks or gorges at all. This might allow marines to maintain a bit more of a forward-leaning combat stance without feeling on turret farms (especially on smaller pub servers) to cover their butts.
VeNeM, you seem to come into this conversation from a clan-veteran point of view, and I get that. Clan players usually have things like voicecomms sorted out, they follow orders, they can usually kill what they're aiming at, and they get that someone needs to fill those support roles like "the guy who goes and gets that skulk off the Helipad res node, again." It's kind of like the military... people get that they have a job to do. Pubs are more like a mob throwing rock at the riot cops... results are mixed. Last night, I had a pub commander who went AFK for a minute to make <i>another</i> rum and coke. You can probably imagine how that went :)
Clan play is vastly different from pub play even before you get into strategy and tactics, and while there's a lot of man-hours of clan play that happen with any given game, I'd be willing to wager that there's more pub players than clan players in most games that aren't old enough to have lost the attention of the general public. I'd like to see static defenses implemented in a way that allows them to be effective (not ineffective AND annoying as hell) in public gameplay; if they end up being something that clans never use, I'm not going to cry about it; you aren't going to be forced to use them, and can laugh at the clans who try. Sounds like a win/win to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1856656:date=Jun 27 2011, 02:18 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 27 2011, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, something is fundamentally broken (imo) when you play 2 different types of game in publics and clan matches, where apparently sentries are so useless that no one bothers with them.
Does that not strike anyone as odd?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That has happened in every game I've played that has both casual and competitive multiplayer. How you play on pubs and how you play in competitive matches is always very different. All this reminds me of how in competitive SC2 matches you see a lot less static defense than what you see in lower level bronze and silver. Higher level players use static defenses as simple deterrents and/or to buy time...lower level players use them as units essentially. I see nearly the same thing happening here.
I'm not saying that makes it right, or that there isn't something broken. Though I'm just not sure it lies squarely with turrets. Turrets are just the visual symptoms of the problem. Yes, a skilled marine team can do without turrets, quickly go shotgun, armor 1...and start taking down hives....But what happens when you encounter an equally skilled alien team that pushes back just as hard? Similar to what you said, if marines are not able to prevent second hive ...and they haven't turret spammed their bases, then its pretty much a quick gg soon after. Something is broken there. Currently the game revolves too heavily around alien's 2nd hive. It makes the game too volatile. Shotguns are too effective in the early game, and Fades are too effective in the mid-game....there is no late-game to speak of right now. Get fades, aliens win. Prevent fades, marines win. Once Fades are in the picture, any marine front line goes to sh!t, breaks down all the way back to marine start....and the endless turret spam stalemate begins.
This could all be symptoms of a feature incomplete game...features that could bring counters to stabilize the game. However, I just don't see an Onos or Exo fixing the high volatility of the early-mid game. Someone in an other thread mentioned that the early game feels like a "floaty resource battle" lacking any structure....and I am starting to strongly agree with him. Once fades are up, marines have way too much to deal with ...and lack the ability to control territory....unless of course they turret spam...but that is just delaying the inevitable.
Personally I think more doors in maps can give the marine side the needed tools to think in a more pro-active strategic sense. Right now, marines in order to win must be a highly reactive force. Aliens set the pace, and marines act according to what the aliens do. Doors can give the marines the proactive option. They can capture a room and lock/weld the door....which gives them some needed security and map control....and without defaulting to turret spamming the room to cover every single angle. I think the door mechanics need some tweaks and refinement, but they can add the needed structure the game lacks right now.
Nice post and gets to the heart of the problem: volatility of the game as it stands. Similar to NS1 where the whole game also revolved around getting 2nd Hive Fades, and early Fades and Lerks were there to slow down the Marine shotgun push.
<!--quoteo(post=1856812:date=Jun 27 2011, 06:15 PM:name=SgtHydra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtHydra @ Jun 27 2011, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Almost as if this game is NS2!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but you'd think it would learn from its own mistakes...
I thought the decision was that any offensive capable thing constructed would cost the commanders PRes. This would at least fix the issue of mass turret -> no tech.
Biggest reason theyre used is because the players havnt figured out (as marines) how to hold parts of the map with the introduction of phasegates, where they hold the rooms instead. When i command i make sure to tell the marines where i want them attacking, and how i want them to get there. for example, i tell marines to attack generator by walking through vent->crossroads->gen to make sure that 1. counter attacks through vent are less likely 2. no hive in Xroads because of the map presence it gives the aliens 3. end up attacking gen room, the initial goal. doing this gives me control over the entire right portion of the map, because my squad travels around surface access, i can reroute the attack if the opportunity is needed. once this kind of behavior becomes more common the amount of turrets needed to control area will thin out, hopefully.
<!--quoteo(post=1856799:date=Jun 27 2011, 05:05 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 27 2011, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nice post and gets to the heart of the problem: volatility of the game as it stands. Similar to NS1 where the whole game also revolved around getting 2nd Hive Fades, and early Fades and Lerks were there to slow down the Marine shotgun push.
But please stop using "..."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.. I see that I used it 3 times in a row in some sentences..not good.
But you are right, I think current high volatility is most likely the heart of the problem. Turret spam is one of many side effects, but definitely the most annoying one.
Static warfare is boring. Its not tactically interesting. Its like photon cannon turtling in starcraft, meeeh.
I don't mind if sentries were removed. While you are at it, remove hydras and whips.
I think the problem is partly because after some time commander does not need to use his resources on medpacks or ammo and can stockpile infinite res. Also big parts of the game are missing meaning its partly a temporary problem.
The collision detection, physics calculation and lag compensation make navigating through a bunch of buildings rather annoying.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently the game revolves too heavily around alien's 2nd hive. It makes the game too volatile. Shotguns are too effective in the early game, and Fades are too effective in the mid-game....there is no late-game to speak of right now. Get fades, aliens win. Prevent fades, marines win<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this I also hate. I was playing alot public games recently, and i was watching some of the recorded 6vs6 games. its always about the 2nd hive! the gameplay is focused way too much on that, there is no tactic (except of early all in strats) as alternative for aliens to go for 2nd hive. even all-in tactics include to build a 2nd hive just to be save. and for marines aswell:
marines cannot attack the primary hive (aliens respawn there) they always have to go for the 2nd to a) prevent aliens from fades or b) to kill it to prevent more fades. (b does not happen very often, usually aliens already won when having fades).
i know, this thread is about sentry turrets. but they are part of a greater picture. in small games you need them. and they are a nice alternative and or addition to phase gates. either your marines are mobile to defend hive locations or there is enough static defense (both together is best of course)
no wonder that you see so many sentries in public. a "good" comm usually spams them. you can also rely on your marines, but thats way too risky since you usually dont know the skill level of each player on the field or if they listen to your orders.
alot of people want NS2 to be new and fresh, and different to NS1. but if you think about the whole gameplay, you cannot disagree that NS1's system is more flexible. (unlocking chambers/upgrades and life-form abilities per hive, instead of unlocking life forms). and there is another problem about the alien side, which marines dont have (not to such an extend): if aliens lose 1 hive(base), they have a huge technology loss. Marines almost never have this situation that they could lose tech (they usually have all tech concentrated in their main base, which they only lose when they lost the whole round)
watch this match: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalSelection2HD#p/u/2/juk0S29rUDg" target="_blank">HBZ v Frelge Game 2</a>. you see this "2nd hive symptom" very good there. I dont want to argue which team here is better. you can clearly see, aliens dont really have an alternative gameplay after aprox 6 minute mark, and marines aswell. the marines HAVE TO attack the 2nd hive. its 10 times easier, and as an addition they prevent aliens from RTs. which only has the effect that 2nd hives come in a slowlier intervall than before :D my personal opinion is that marines play better here, but the strategies from both sides are very primitive (except of the early skulk rush nothing "smart" happens)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something is wrong with the game right now ; you don't get much disadvantage from containing the alien team. In starcraft when you force your opponent into one base play (and expand yourself) you know he will come out with one strong attack, and you have to watch for it. In NS1 you force more fades by denying the second hive. In NS2 you just force aliens to die in a pitiful manner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they need to unlink fade from second hive, and link an important upgrade for the fade to the second hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1856885:date=Jun 28 2011, 02:05 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 28 2011, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think they need to unlink fade from second hive, and link an important upgrade for the fade to the second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that something needs to be done. Currently the aliens have no chance if the marines beat then early game by denying the 2nd hive and eventually boxing them in. hydras cost Pres (as they should) so they will eventually get mowed down, and skulks can only get you so far..
marines on the other hand can hold off the aliens pretty good with turrets/arcs and marines with shottys and flamers. and then try to sneak a phasegate out or make a coordinated push. sure its not easy, but it forces the alien team to make coordinated attacks, so at least they stand a chance
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1856885:date=Jun 28 2011, 08:05 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 28 2011, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My comment on HBZ v Frelge Game 2 :
I think they need to unlink fade from second hive, and link an important upgrade for the fade to the second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for example: <b><u>blink</u></b>. if you play 1 hive fade, you could for example still perform a small "leap" by double tapping in one direction, but you are multiple times more vulnerable without blink.
you can transport some general philosphy to all hive 2 alien abilities: hive 1 aliens have some major weakness, which should be almost removed at hive 2 and with third hive you get another ability which could alter your game-play and make you superior (by changing stats / introducing a powerful ability...). each succeeding hive could then bring such ability and/or add more life/damage/upgrades whatever
for example: <b><u>skulk</u></b>: if you implement the slowdown effect on bite (and swipe/gore), but not on marine projectile weapons, you could remove leap to hive 2 (in my opinion) so the major flaw of a hive 1 skulk would be: closing the <u>initial</u> gap to a marine (only ambushing works)
<b><u>gorge</u></b>: he is a supporter class, healing / building defense. but his major flaw is not being able to make any aggressive move except dropping hydras or heal other players close to the front-lines (only indirectly aggressive). a gorge needs bile-bomb, which he gets at hive 2. so: gorge is fine!
<b><u>lerk</u></b>: im not sure what the hive 2 ability would be, but if you re-adjust lerk spikes, make them only effective at shotgun range (which should be smaller btw), then you can move lerk <u>snipe</u> to 2nd hive. the major flaw of the lerk would be: only effective in mid/close range which has a <b>high </b>risk to die
<b><u>fade</u></b>: if you implement this "mini leaping" by double tapping, hive 1 fades could still move around the map to some reasonable degree and participate in combat. but their major problem would be: you cannot perform "hit&run", every attack has the risk of not being able to escape anymore.
<b><u>onos</u></b>: im not sure which abilities the onos will have (there are indications but who knows for sure) but my idea would be: if the onos major flaw would be to resist the enemies fire power, in direct frontal confrontation, then "bone shield" could be avaible at hive 2 only. this would still make him useful at hive 1 (being a giant meat shield, attracting the attacks to him) but his life-time would be much, much shorter
the general idea is: make hive 1 life-forms have some serious flaws, which are greatly reduced by having 2 hives.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commander can kill one skulk attacking base. If necessary marines can easily run back. Just like NS1, remember that game? Eventually on most servers people got the idea that turret farms weren't necessary to defend your base from one skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that one skulks can kill that one commander at base to! It all depends on player skill. If both players are evenly matched then it can go either way. Turrets are needed in the game. Even later on. So in conclusion your commander was an idiot. Shotguns are always the first thing I research when I command. Then I focus on expanding. As the resources start to pour in I place turrets because the marines will be farther from base and without turrets should multiple skulks/lerks or fades enter the base I am screwed.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1856893:date=Jun 28 2011, 06:40 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Jun 28 2011, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->for example: <b><u>blink</u></b>. if you play 1 hive fade, you could for example still perform a small "leap" by double tapping in one direction, but you are multiple times more vulnerable without blink.
you can transport some general philosphy to all hive 2 alien abilities: hive 1 aliens have some major weakness, which should be almost removed at hive 2 and with third hive you get another ability which could alter your game-play and make you superior (by changing stats / introducing a powerful ability...). each succeeding hive could then bring such ability and/or add more life/damage/upgrades whatever
for example: <b><u>skulk</u></b>: if you implement the slowdown effect on bite (and swipe/gore), but not on marine projectile weapons, you could remove leap to hive 2 (in my opinion) so the major flaw of a hive 1 skulk would be: closing the <u>initial</u> gap to a marine (only ambushing works)
<b><u>gorge</u></b>: he is a supporter class, healing / building defense. but his major flaw is not being able to make any aggressive move except dropping hydras or heal other players close to the front-lines (only indirectly aggressive). a gorge needs bile-bomb, which he gets at hive 2. so: gorge is fine!
<b><u>lerk</u></b>: im not sure what the hive 2 ability would be, but if you re-adjust lerk spikes, make them only effective at shotgun range (which should be smaller btw), then you can move lerk <u>snipe</u> to 2nd hive. the major flaw of the lerk would be: only effective in mid/close range which has a <b>high </b>risk to die
<b><u>fade</u></b>: if you implement this "mini leaping" by double tapping, hive 1 fades could still move around the map to some reasonable degree and participate in combat. but their major problem would be: you cannot perform "hit&run", every attack has the risk of not being able to escape anymore.
<b><u>onos</u></b>: im not sure which abilities the onos will have (there are indications but who knows for sure) but my idea would be: if the onos major flaw would be to resist the enemies fire power, in direct frontal confrontation, then "bone shield" could be avaible at hive 2 only. this would still make him useful at hive 1 (being a giant meat shield, attracting the attacks to him) but his life-time would be much, much shorter
the general idea is: make hive 1 life-forms have some serious flaws, which are greatly reduced by having 2 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make excellent observations and suggestions, Schimmel.
Currently there is too much strategic emphasis on rushing for/against the second Hive for both teams, with the game outcome decided often within the first 5 minutes. That sets the pace of early game way too fast IMO. On the other hand, early node tech expansion should be a viable strategy for both teams, but the rewards and risks should be scaled down, as you suggested.
I also share your view on Kharaa ability. Risky attacks should carry higher rewards, thus movement reducing effects should only be trigger by Skulks and Fade melee attacks.
I believe for B180, Charlie has already changed the Lerks' primary Spike to fire slower projectiles that deal more damage up close, with significant reduced effectiveness at long range. So effectively, Lerks got their "Bite" back, with extended range, but reduced damage at long range.
Although the Gorge is capable of killing lone Marines with Heal Spray, Spit should be the Gorge's main weapon. I would recommend increasing the damage Spit deals, along with its energy cost, so Spit would be good for providing covering fire at medium range.
I like the idea of instant "Mini Blink" with one Hive, with the longer Blink becoming available after second Hive. It is very possible that (when it is implemented) the Shade will be a tech requirement to evolve Fade.
As for the Sentry spam problem, I remember in Savage 2, turrets can not be placed within a certain range of each other, and each turret was expensive. A similar implementation would be a good solution. The overall aim is to discourage highly concentrated deployment of turrets (Sentry spam), by accentuating diminishing return.
An alternate solution would be increasing the size of Sentries, so if they would block each other's LoS if they were were placed too close.
<!--quoteo(post=1856978:date=Jun 28 2011, 11:01 PM:name=OPIE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OPIE @ Jun 28 2011, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that one skulks can kill that one commander at base to! It all depends on player skill. If both players are evenly matched then it can go either way. Turrets are needed in the game. Even later on. So in conclusion your commander was an idiot. Shotguns are always the first thing I research when I command. Then I focus on expanding. As the resources start to pour in I place turrets because the marines will be farther from base and without turrets should multiple skulks/lerks or fades enter the base I am screwed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And to continue the story if any of the players had a clue how to play the game they would use minimap to spot attack coming to base giving commander much higher chance to react! 10 points to who knows why n how.
If the primary complaint about Sentries is that they consume valuable early game resources due to focus on second hive, primarily because there is currently no late game, then why not redo Sentries as mobile, recoverable, units, as akin to the ARC? In fact, why not just have the ARC have two weapon upgrades? Allow it to use the Sentries gun with some buffs, and allow such "sentried" ARCs to never really die, just cease functioning. Allow marines to repair the hulk to a functioning state. With a high cost, that precludes one from spamming them from Pres, and since they cost Pres now, that leaves Tres to be used on upgrades.
IE - large Pres expense, effective, reduced spam, can be used to make pushes, can be reallocated to improve defensive grid. Let me know what exactly is wrong with this line of thinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1857061:date=Jun 29 2011, 12:03 AM:name=Faustinian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faustinian @ Jun 29 2011, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the primary complaint about Sentries is that they consume valuable early game resources due to focus on second hive, primarily because there is currently no late game, then why not redo Sentries as mobile, recoverable, units, as akin to the ARC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the high focus on the second hive needs to be addressed first, but I've also been thinking that mobile sentries is a good direction to go with this. However, instead of it just being a mobile sentry, I'd give it more versatility. The idea I had in mind was essentially using a larger, more expensive, more heavily armored military version of the MAC. It would have 3 modes: sentry, support and repair. While in repair mode it can act as MAC repairing buildings but at a slower rate, moving slower, and can not be used to construct buildings (unlike a MAC). In sentry mode it goes stationary and acts as the current sentry, but stronger. In support mode it moves faster and acts as mini armory (slower or incomplete armor, health, and ammo regen). The last one is an idea talked about in the 'resource model problem' thread as one way to scale commander support abilities properly regardless of player count.
The higher expensive will make even pub commanders think twice before spamming them. Its versatility would ensure that it sees good use throughout the game and isn't seem as a waste even in higher level matches. The different modes can be researchable and/or cost res to switch between modes.
The number of tech points is contributing to the problem also, since the 'spare' tech point (compared to ns1) removes the option for marines to try for an early two hive lock.
Certainly contributing to the lack of strategies available in the early game.
I'm unkillable as fade tbh, you leave fade on one hive and it will be GG as soon as I got 50 res :-)
Oh AND LEAVE THE DAMN SENTRY'S INGAME, when I'm commander my rines tend to have a shyt aim on a public server, so I need my sentry's if I want to win, k thx
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1857166:date=Jun 29 2011, 11:29 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jun 29 2011, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Set amount per power node could work...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rather than a fixed number per power node, I'd like to see an overall structure limit (similar to a unit limit in traditional RTSs). More captured tech nodes increases the limit, giving tech nodes much more value. This would both help reduce sentry spam, while giving teams some flexibility.
<!--quoteo(post=1857166:date=Jun 29 2011, 01:29 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jun 29 2011, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Set amount per power node could work...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1857174:date=Jun 29 2011, 02:11 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 29 2011, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than a fixed number per power node, I'd like to see an overall structure limit (similar to a unit limit in traditional RTSs). More captured tech nodes increases the limit, giving tech nodes much more value. This would both help reduce sentry spam, while giving teams some flexibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1857177:date=Jun 29 2011, 02:40 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 29 2011, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The goal is to discourage their use early on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this makes no sense as mid to late game they become useless... an onos would have no trouble clearing a room of turrets, especially with the armor on the front.
The goal should be to stop revolving the entire game around the second hive.
Early turrets are only a problem now because they get in the way of the marines' only viable strategy ....quick early shotgun push to take out any 2nd hive.
This is in addition to more late game turret counters, better resource model and higher turret costs to prevent comms from relying on them too much.
<!--quoteo(post=1856206:date=Jun 25 2011, 06:44 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 25 2011, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm tired of 2 hour games because a commander thinks random sentries is better than shotguns or armor 1. I have never seen them be used in a way that pushes the game forward.
It's NS1 all over again.
Edit: I'm complaining because they suck, not because they're overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 hour games are one of the things i really miss from NS1.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1857205:date=Jun 29 2011, 03:26 PM:name=VarXX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VarXX @ Jun 29 2011, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 hour games are one of the things i really miss from NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you should be loving B179 because I find myself playing many 1+ hour and a fair number of 2+ hour matches.
Comments
Instead you balance it on 'it is not powerful enough, so make it cheaper (which leads to spam) and more powerful'
In turn Aliens whine because 'it is too powerful, make them more expensive and less powerful'.
You don't get an even ground, which is why in TF2 the spy team mechanic works so bloody well, even when you have sentries that kill anything in front of them.
Nothing is balanced completely on damage, but overcomes it by using team-play abilities to balance things rather than going round in damage circles.
Spy - Sentry, Medic - Heavy...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or demoman, or more than 1 soldier, or sniper, or pyro + medic, or basically anything other than a team composed entirely of scouts. Your analogy isn't very good.
If making it more powerful and less expensive makes it overpowered against aliens, but currently it's too expensive and not powerful enough, then it is sort of neccesary that somewhere in between, you find a combination of power and cost which makes them balanced. Now we already know a few things, we know that 20 res is probably a bit too expensive, and we know that double power would probably make them unbreakable by anything short of an onos which is undesirable, so really, we only have to move it between 10 and 20 res, and current and 1.75 times damage. That is a pretty small area.
Now you won't shut everyone up, no, because people always whine about balance, it's just what people do, but you can, through the use of statistics, figure out what is empirically balanced, and what promotes the most engaging gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1856727:date=Jun 27 2011, 05:05 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 27 2011, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lmaaaaaaoooooo!!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A+ post would read again.
Electrification was a pain in the ass, sure, but what it accomplished was making it so that stray skulks in small games couldn't destroy a res node simply due to there not being someone available to stop them. The late game turret farming we see is due to an annoying combination of needing more turrets to actually get anything done, not having anything else to spend Tres on, small team size combined with large map area, and not-easy-to-kill fades.
Hm... an idea. We could bring back electrification but with a change: it does a negligible amount/no damage, but it impairs energy regeneration... basically, it slows down skulks chewing up res nodes or whatever else ends up being electrified, but doesn't actually kill them, and doesn't slow down lerks or gorges at all. This might allow marines to maintain a bit more of a forward-leaning combat stance without feeling on turret farms (especially on smaller pub servers) to cover their butts.
VeNeM, you seem to come into this conversation from a clan-veteran point of view, and I get that. Clan players usually have things like voicecomms sorted out, they follow orders, they can usually kill what they're aiming at, and they get that someone needs to fill those support roles like "the guy who goes and gets that skulk off the Helipad res node, again." It's kind of like the military... people get that they have a job to do. Pubs are more like a mob throwing rock at the riot cops... results are mixed. Last night, I had a pub commander who went AFK for a minute to make <i>another</i> rum and coke. You can probably imagine how that went :)
Clan play is vastly different from pub play even before you get into strategy and tactics, and while there's a lot of man-hours of clan play that happen with any given game, I'd be willing to wager that there's more pub players than clan players in most games that aren't old enough to have lost the attention of the general public. I'd like to see static defenses implemented in a way that allows them to be effective (not ineffective AND annoying as hell) in public gameplay; if they end up being something that clans never use, I'm not going to cry about it; you aren't going to be forced to use them, and can laugh at the clans who try. Sounds like a win/win to me.
Does that not strike anyone as odd?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That has happened in every game I've played that has both casual and competitive multiplayer. How you play on pubs and how you play in competitive matches is always very different. All this reminds me of how in competitive SC2 matches you see a lot less static defense than what you see in lower level bronze and silver. Higher level players use static defenses as simple deterrents and/or to buy time...lower level players use them as units essentially. I see nearly the same thing happening here.
I'm not saying that makes it right, or that there isn't something broken. Though I'm just not sure it lies squarely with turrets. Turrets are just the visual symptoms of the problem. Yes, a skilled marine team can do without turrets, quickly go shotgun, armor 1...and start taking down hives....But what happens when you encounter an equally skilled alien team that pushes back just as hard? Similar to what you said, if marines are not able to prevent second hive ...and they haven't turret spammed their bases, then its pretty much a quick gg soon after. Something is broken there. Currently the game revolves too heavily around alien's 2nd hive. It makes the game too volatile. Shotguns are too effective in the early game, and Fades are too effective in the mid-game....there is no late-game to speak of right now. Get fades, aliens win. Prevent fades, marines win. Once Fades are in the picture, any marine front line goes to sh!t, breaks down all the way back to marine start....and the endless turret spam stalemate begins.
This could all be symptoms of a feature incomplete game...features that could bring counters to stabilize the game. However, I just don't see an Onos or Exo fixing the high volatility of the early-mid game. Someone in an other thread mentioned that the early game feels like a "floaty resource battle" lacking any structure....and I am starting to strongly agree with him. Once fades are up, marines have way too much to deal with ...and lack the ability to control territory....unless of course they turret spam...but that is just delaying the inevitable.
Personally I think more doors in maps can give the marine side the needed tools to think in a more pro-active strategic sense. Right now, marines in order to win must be a highly reactive force. Aliens set the pace, and marines act according to what the aliens do. Doors can give the marines the proactive option. They can capture a room and lock/weld the door....which gives them some needed security and map control....and without defaulting to turret spamming the room to cover every single angle. I think the door mechanics need some tweaks and refinement, but they can add the needed structure the game lacks right now.
But please stop using "..."
Almost as if this game is NS2!
Yeah, but you'd think it would learn from its own mistakes...
Biggest reason theyre used is because the players havnt figured out (as marines) how to hold parts of the map with the introduction of phasegates, where they hold the rooms instead. When i command i make sure to tell the marines where i want them attacking, and how i want them to get there. for example, i tell marines to attack generator by walking through vent->crossroads->gen to make sure that
1. counter attacks through vent are less likely
2. no hive in Xroads because of the map presence it gives the aliens
3. end up attacking gen room, the initial goal.
doing this gives me control over the entire right portion of the map, because my squad travels around surface access, i can reroute the attack if the opportunity is needed.
once this kind of behavior becomes more common the amount of turrets needed to control area will thin out, hopefully.
But please stop using "..."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.. I see that I used it 3 times in a row in some sentences..not good.
But you are right, I think current high volatility is most likely the heart of the problem. Turret spam is one of many side effects, but definitely the most annoying one.
I don't mind if sentries were removed. While you are at it, remove hydras and whips.
I think the problem is partly because after some time commander does not need to use his resources on medpacks or ammo and can stockpile infinite res. Also big parts of the game are missing meaning its partly a temporary problem.
The collision detection, physics calculation and lag compensation make navigating through a bunch of buildings rather annoying.
What mu said. Listen to him.
this I also hate. I was playing alot public games recently, and i was watching some of the recorded 6vs6 games. its always about the 2nd hive! the gameplay is focused way
too much on that, there is no tactic (except of early all in strats) as alternative for aliens to go for 2nd hive. even all-in tactics include to build a 2nd hive just to be save. and for marines aswell:
marines cannot attack the primary hive (aliens respawn there) they always have to go for the 2nd to a) prevent aliens from fades or b) to kill it to prevent more fades. (b does not happen very often, usually aliens already won when having fades).
i know, this thread is about sentry turrets. but they are part of a greater picture. in small games you need them. and they are a nice alternative and or addition to phase gates. either your marines are mobile to defend hive locations or there is enough static defense (both together is best of course)
no wonder that you see so many sentries in public. a "good" comm usually spams them. you can also rely on your marines, but thats way too risky since you usually dont
know the skill level of each player on the field or if they listen to your orders.
alot of people want NS2 to be new and fresh, and different to NS1. but if you think about the whole gameplay, you cannot disagree that NS1's system is more flexible. (unlocking chambers/upgrades and life-form abilities per hive, instead of unlocking life forms). and there is another problem about the alien side, which marines dont have (not to such an extend): if aliens lose 1 hive(base), they have a huge technology loss. Marines almost never have this situation that they could lose tech (they usually have all tech concentrated in their main base, which they only lose when they lost the whole round)
watch this match: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalSelection2HD#p/u/2/juk0S29rUDg" target="_blank">HBZ v Frelge Game 2</a>. you see this "2nd hive symptom" very good
there. I dont want to argue which team here is better. you can clearly see, aliens dont really have an alternative gameplay after aprox 6 minute mark, and marines
aswell. the marines HAVE TO attack the 2nd hive. its 10 times easier, and as an addition they prevent aliens from RTs. which only has the effect that 2nd hives come in a slowlier intervall than before :D
my personal opinion is that marines play better here, but the strategies from both sides are very primitive (except of the early skulk rush nothing "smart" happens)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something is wrong with the game right now ; you don't get much disadvantage from containing the alien team. In starcraft when you force your opponent into one base play (and expand yourself) you know he will come out with one strong attack, and you have to watch for it. In NS1 you force more fades by denying the second hive. In NS2 you just force aliens to die in a pitiful manner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they need to unlink fade from second hive, and link an important upgrade for the fade to the second hive.
I agree that something needs to be done. Currently the aliens have no chance if the marines beat then early game by denying the 2nd hive and eventually boxing them in. hydras cost Pres (as they should) so they will eventually get mowed down, and skulks can only get you so far..
marines on the other hand can hold off the aliens pretty good with turrets/arcs and marines with shottys and flamers.
and then try to sneak a phasegate out or make a coordinated push.
sure its not easy, but it forces the alien team to make coordinated attacks, so at least they stand a chance
I think they need to unlink fade from second hive, and link an important upgrade for the fade to the second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for example: <b><u>blink</u></b>.
if you play 1 hive fade, you could for example still perform a small "leap" by double tapping in one direction, but you are multiple times more vulnerable without
blink.
you can transport some general philosphy to all hive 2 alien abilities: hive 1 aliens have some major weakness, which should be almost removed at hive 2 and with
third hive you get another ability which could alter your game-play and make you superior (by changing stats / introducing a powerful ability...). each succeeding
hive could then bring such ability and/or add more life/damage/upgrades whatever
for example:
<b><u>skulk</u></b>: if you implement the slowdown effect on bite (and swipe/gore), but not on marine projectile weapons, you could remove leap to hive 2 (in my opinion)
so the major flaw of a hive 1 skulk would be: closing the <u>initial</u> gap to a marine (only ambushing works)
<b><u>gorge</u></b>: he is a supporter class, healing / building defense. but his major flaw is not being able to make any aggressive move except dropping
hydras or heal other players close to the front-lines (only indirectly aggressive). a gorge needs bile-bomb, which he gets at hive 2. so: gorge is fine!
<b><u>lerk</u></b>: im not sure what the hive 2 ability would be, but if you re-adjust lerk spikes, make them only effective at shotgun range (which should be smaller btw),
then you can move lerk <u>snipe</u> to 2nd hive. the major flaw of the lerk would be: only effective in mid/close range which has a <b>high </b>risk to die
<b><u>fade</u></b>: if you implement this "mini leaping" by double tapping, hive 1 fades could still move around the map to some reasonable degree and participate in combat.
but their major problem would be: you cannot perform "hit&run", every attack has the risk of not being able to escape anymore.
<b><u>onos</u></b>: im not sure which abilities the onos will have (there are indications but who knows for sure) but my idea would be:
if the onos major flaw would be to resist the enemies fire power, in direct frontal confrontation, then "bone shield" could be avaible at hive 2 only.
this would still make him useful at hive 1 (being a giant meat shield, attracting the attacks to him) but his life-time would be much, much shorter
the general idea is: make hive 1 life-forms have some serious flaws, which are greatly reduced by having 2 hives.
And that one skulks can kill that one commander at base to! It all depends on player skill. If both players are evenly matched then it can go either way. Turrets are needed in the game. Even later on. So in conclusion your commander was an idiot. Shotguns are always the first thing I research when I command. Then I focus on expanding. As the resources start to pour in I place turrets because the marines will be farther from base and without turrets should multiple skulks/lerks or fades enter the base I am screwed.
if you play 1 hive fade, you could for example still perform a small "leap" by double tapping in one direction, but you are multiple times more vulnerable without
blink.
you can transport some general philosphy to all hive 2 alien abilities: hive 1 aliens have some major weakness, which should be almost removed at hive 2 and with
third hive you get another ability which could alter your game-play and make you superior (by changing stats / introducing a powerful ability...). each succeeding
hive could then bring such ability and/or add more life/damage/upgrades whatever
for example:
<b><u>skulk</u></b>: if you implement the slowdown effect on bite (and swipe/gore), but not on marine projectile weapons, you could remove leap to hive 2 (in my opinion)
so the major flaw of a hive 1 skulk would be: closing the <u>initial</u> gap to a marine (only ambushing works)
<b><u>gorge</u></b>: he is a supporter class, healing / building defense. but his major flaw is not being able to make any aggressive move except dropping
hydras or heal other players close to the front-lines (only indirectly aggressive). a gorge needs bile-bomb, which he gets at hive 2. so: gorge is fine!
<b><u>lerk</u></b>: im not sure what the hive 2 ability would be, but if you re-adjust lerk spikes, make them only effective at shotgun range (which should be smaller btw),
then you can move lerk <u>snipe</u> to 2nd hive. the major flaw of the lerk would be: only effective in mid/close range which has a <b>high </b>risk to die
<b><u>fade</u></b>: if you implement this "mini leaping" by double tapping, hive 1 fades could still move around the map to some reasonable degree and participate in combat.
but their major problem would be: you cannot perform "hit&run", every attack has the risk of not being able to escape anymore.
<b><u>onos</u></b>: im not sure which abilities the onos will have (there are indications but who knows for sure) but my idea would be:
if the onos major flaw would be to resist the enemies fire power, in direct frontal confrontation, then "bone shield" could be avaible at hive 2 only.
this would still make him useful at hive 1 (being a giant meat shield, attracting the attacks to him) but his life-time would be much, much shorter
the general idea is: make hive 1 life-forms have some serious flaws, which are greatly reduced by having 2 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make excellent observations and suggestions, Schimmel.
Currently there is too much strategic emphasis on rushing for/against the second Hive for both teams, with the game outcome decided often within the first 5 minutes. That sets the pace of early game way too fast IMO. On the other hand, early node tech expansion should be a viable strategy for both teams, but the rewards and risks should be scaled down, as you suggested.
I also share your view on Kharaa ability. Risky attacks should carry higher rewards, thus movement reducing effects should only be trigger by Skulks and Fade melee attacks.
I believe for B180, Charlie has already changed the Lerks' primary Spike to fire slower projectiles that deal more damage up close, with significant reduced effectiveness at long range. So effectively, Lerks got their "Bite" back, with extended range, but reduced damage at long range.
Although the Gorge is capable of killing lone Marines with Heal Spray, Spit should be the Gorge's main weapon. I would recommend increasing the damage Spit deals, along with its energy cost, so Spit would be good for providing covering fire at medium range.
I like the idea of instant "Mini Blink" with one Hive, with the longer Blink becoming available after second Hive. It is very possible that (when it is implemented) the Shade will be a tech requirement to evolve Fade.
As for the Sentry spam problem, I remember in Savage 2, turrets can not be placed within a certain range of each other, and each turret was expensive. A similar implementation would be a good solution. The overall aim is to discourage highly concentrated deployment of turrets (Sentry spam), by accentuating diminishing return.
An alternate solution would be increasing the size of Sentries, so if they would block each other's LoS if they were were placed too close.
And to continue the story if any of the players had a clue how to play the game they would use minimap to spot attack coming to base giving commander much higher chance to react! 10 points to who knows why n how.
IE - large Pres expense, effective, reduced spam, can be used to make pushes, can be reallocated to improve defensive grid. Let me know what exactly is wrong with this line of thinking.
I think the high focus on the second hive needs to be addressed first, but I've also been thinking that mobile sentries is a good direction to go with this. However, instead of it just being a mobile sentry, I'd give it more versatility. The idea I had in mind was essentially using a larger, more expensive, more heavily armored military version of the MAC. It would have 3 modes: sentry, support and repair. While in repair mode it can act as MAC repairing buildings but at a slower rate, moving slower, and can not be used to construct buildings (unlike a MAC). In sentry mode it goes stationary and acts as the current sentry, but stronger. In support mode it moves faster and acts as mini armory (slower or incomplete armor, health, and ammo regen). The last one is an idea talked about in the 'resource model problem' thread as one way to scale commander support abilities properly regardless of player count.
The higher expensive will make even pub commanders think twice before spamming them. Its versatility would ensure that it sees good use throughout the game and isn't seem as a waste even in higher level matches. The different modes can be researchable and/or cost res to switch between modes.
The number of tech points is contributing to the problem also, since the 'spare' tech point (compared to ns1) removes the option for marines to try for an early two hive lock.
Certainly contributing to the lack of strategies available in the early game.
Oh AND LEAVE THE DAMN SENTRY'S INGAME, when I'm commander my rines tend to have a shyt aim on a public server, so I need my sentry's if I want to win, k thx
Rather than a fixed number per power node, I'd like to see an overall structure limit (similar to a unit limit in traditional RTSs). More captured tech nodes increases the limit, giving tech nodes much more value. This would both help reduce sentry spam, while giving teams some flexibility.
<!--quoteo(post=1857174:date=Jun 29 2011, 02:11 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 29 2011, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than a fixed number per power node, I'd like to see an overall structure limit (similar to a unit limit in traditional RTSs). More captured tech nodes increases the limit, giving tech nodes much more value. This would both help reduce sentry spam, while giving teams some flexibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The goal is to discourage their use early on.
this makes no sense as mid to late game they become useless... an onos would have no trouble clearing a room of turrets, especially with the armor on the front.
Early turrets are only a problem now because they get in the way of the marines' only viable strategy ....quick early shotgun push to take out any 2nd hive.
This is in addition to more late game turret counters, better resource model and higher turret costs to prevent comms from relying on them too much.
It's NS1 all over again.
Edit: I'm complaining because they suck, not because they're overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 hour games are one of the things i really miss from NS1.
Then you should be loving B179 because I find myself playing many 1+ hour and a fair number of 2+ hour matches.