Sprinting, do we still need it?
IeptBarakat
The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Sprinting was added early to the game so marines could head back to their squad or get into combat quickly. This was when phasegates were being cut from the game do to time/budget reasons. Now the game has phasegates, and heading back to your squad or an attack is quite easy now with the weight/speed system.
Removing marine sprint would allow the skulk to have their leap set back to hive 2. As marine sprint was the biggest factor against hive 2 leap.
Skulk/Marine rushes won't be as bad as it is currently. Where you constantly have a marine sprinting to shotgun your hive or have all the skulks leaping to marine start.
Sprinting clashes with the new weapon weight/movement speed system added. You hold sprint with your gun in hand, or you switch to a pistol or the axe. Both systems use the same risk/reward system. And you can still run back to your squad faster with the new weight/speed system by holstering your primary weapon.
The slow on hit against aliens or marines could be tweaked or removed. As you wouldn't have to worry about marines sprinting away from your bite or aliens leaping from every bullet, and skulks would be advised to act stealthily again.
It would discourage rambos and whips would be a valid defense again. And at the end, catalyst packs won't seem useless.
So does ns2 really need sprinting?
Removing marine sprint would allow the skulk to have their leap set back to hive 2. As marine sprint was the biggest factor against hive 2 leap.
Skulk/Marine rushes won't be as bad as it is currently. Where you constantly have a marine sprinting to shotgun your hive or have all the skulks leaping to marine start.
Sprinting clashes with the new weapon weight/movement speed system added. You hold sprint with your gun in hand, or you switch to a pistol or the axe. Both systems use the same risk/reward system. And you can still run back to your squad faster with the new weight/speed system by holstering your primary weapon.
The slow on hit against aliens or marines could be tweaked or removed. As you wouldn't have to worry about marines sprinting away from your bite or aliens leaping from every bullet, and skulks would be advised to act stealthily again.
It would discourage rambos and whips would be a valid defense again. And at the end, catalyst packs won't seem useless.
So does ns2 really need sprinting?
Comments
I sure wouldn't miss it.
But feel free to remove that damn sprinting
Actually its 20% :)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Marine.kWalkMaxSpeed = 5
Marine.kRunMaxSpeed = 6.0<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Marine.kWalkMaxSpeed = 5
Marine.kRunMaxSpeed = 6.0<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh D: Well, it's still not fast enough, I think. Its sprint, not jogging :)
Gameplay Changes -
Marine Sprint removed
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10 minutes later at the forum</i>
NOW THAT SPRINT IS REMOVED CAN WE HAVE BUNNY HOP AGAIN?
Also, +1 for removing jogging.
What sprinting does is give the player a choice. A tradeoff. And in games, this is a good thing. Players can choose to increase their speed at the cost of readiness -- if they run into an enemy they will automatically lose the initiative. If they don't, they can get where they are going 20% faster. This is a valuable decision players need to make with a tangible risk/reward. These are the kinds of features that define good games.
Furthermore, sprint gives players a slight feeling of control -- if they die in a critical situation, they can activate sprint to get back into the fight. This makes them feel like they are "doing everything possible" to get back to the action. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of this concept.
Also, sprinting acts as an inverse "iron sights." Instead of bringing up the sights and moving slower, players default to a more cautious movement mode and can sprint between encounters. If you are for iron sights then you must be for sprinting as they are equivalents.
To those who want to remove sprinting -- WHY? None of the detractors have articulated any valid reason whatsoever.
One said that sprint "damages other areas of the game." What? No specifics were offered. Another said that phase gates make sprint irrelevant. I disagree strongly with this statement as phase gates come much later in the game and have all kinds of tech and power requirements. While there is some risk in going through a phase gate, their static locations makes the decision to use them much less fluid than deciding whether to sprint trough unsecured territory.
That tradeoff is present within the new weapon weight system. Where a player could put away his gun for a speed increase, and the risk/reward of being ready for combat is there.
Phase gates allow area control, if your commander drops a phasegate you'll easily be able to get back into combat. Without the current problem with the endless supply of soldiers sprinting into alien territory.
The inverse ironsights comment is still achievable with the weapon weight system. If you draw your pistol or axe you can still get to places faster and you're naturally more cautious as you can't sprint away to gain distance.
Marine sprinting has been causing plenty of damages throughout the game. In areas such as a marine sprinting past all the alien defenses to destroy the cyst chain. Or continuously rushing hive's or rt's until it's destroyed. It's turning the game into a fast paced lemming shooter. You spawn, get a shotgun, sprint to the hive. Shoot it. Die.(repeat until the hive is dead.)
What sprinting does is give the player a choice. A tradeoff. And in games, this is a good thing. Players can choose to increase their speed at the cost of readiness -- if they run into an enemy they will automatically lose the initiative. If they don't, they can get where they are going 20% faster. This is a valuable decision players need to make with a tangible risk/reward. These are the kinds of features that define good games.
Furthermore, sprint gives players a slight feeling of control -- if they die in a critical situation, they can activate sprint to get back into the fight. This makes them feel like they are "doing everything possible" to get back to the action. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of this concept.
Also, sprinting acts as an inverse "iron sights." Instead of bringing up the sights and moving slower, players default to a more cautious movement mode and can sprint between encounters. If you are for iron sights then you must be for sprinting as they are equivalents.
To those who want to remove sprinting -- WHY? None of the detractors have articulated any valid reason whatsoever.
One said that sprint "damages other areas of the game." What? No specifics were offered. Another said that phase gates make sprint irrelevant. I disagree strongly with this statement as phase gates come much later in the game and have all kinds of tech and power requirements. While there is some risk in going through a phase gate, their static locations makes the decision to use them much less fluid than deciding whether to sprint trough unsecured territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bravery!
Sprinting gives marines too much movement, you could argue why not but I strongly believe that the teams should be individualized or we might aswell stick guns into skulks mouth. It is also too fast for vanilla skulk to catch without leap which is extremely stupid, lessening it would make it worthless.
I have also noticed that new players overuse this a lot ending up many useless deaths which are most likely very frustrating, they are better off pointing their guns to the walls. I bet its the silent ambush style instead of the cod grenade spam warnings.
Phasegates are the real trade off, that comm has to make either go for tech for mobility or for the upgrades for sturdyness or attack power.
Finally the most important thing is this is not necessery for marines, they do not need a way to turn their back to the enemy. They need to have a move that allows them to have reasonable chance of dodging incoming attack / ambush.
Shouldn't make standard marine movement any slower than it is. The current speed is perfect. Any slower and they'll feel sluggish.
Finally the most important thing is this is not necessery for marines, they do not need a way to turn their back to the enemy. They need to have a move that allows them to have reasonable chance of dodging incoming attack / ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was initially going to vouch for a modified sprint, but the dodge move really sounds a LOT more interesting than sprinting.
Currently sprinting has been a major factor for me when it comes down to surviving skulk rushes. For instance i take out the first skulk that pops up, but in return he also has nibbled off my feet and I'm stuck with 20 hp and see 3 more skulks incoming. By sprinting through my team and to the back I won't get any more pRes for that battle, but I have a higher chance of surviving the push towards the hive or where ever we are pushing.
Without the sprint, a half dead marine would be a dead marine in a situation like that. Having a way to dodge an attack or two on your way to the back would remedy this though.
This ability/move would of course need a decent cooldown so that it can't be spammed while in combat. Even better would be to make you unable to shoot, but in return give you a few seconds(3ish?) of guaranteed survival.
As for the phasegate comment, that's not really up to the players on the ground to decide since the com has to do the research for the team. They rarely have a say in what the com upgrades, unless the com is nice enough to ask what they want first. Sprint give the grunts a slight choice when it comes to their own mobility, but as I mentioned above - a dodge move sounds way more interesting than sprint, if sprint had to be the trade-off.
dodge move would get spammed. it's just creating the jump spam problem. put restrictions on it and it will terrible.
all these ideas are just making a complicated formula. movement should be an easy concept. you should accomplish it without thinking about it. the movement should feel as natural as possible. too many ideas and restrictions will just bog it all down. i don't see any of these complications for the aliens. why should the marines have them? and i'm not sure why weapon switching should replace a solid established mechanic. i hope this gets sorted out, because i think it's straying too far from the purpose.
Jetpacks give the marine great mobility. And allows them to zip around the map at a nice speed. It's like the hive 2 leap skulks can get.
It balances out the two sides at the start of the game, and doesn't really unbalance them later as phase gates generally supercede it, taking out sprint won't make marines less mobile in the lategame, but it will make them really slow at the start of the game.
Besides, why would you WANT an excuse to remove leap from skulks? Leaping is fun, if it's too OP, you should be buffing marines, not finding new and interesting ways to make skulks more boring.
Keep sprinting, there is no reason to take it out of the game.
Irf you don't need it, then don't use it. But I use it most of the time,
in situations like:
- you are at flight and suddently the commander tells you that the base is under attack
- you die in a fight in vent and need to go back there to save your dropped gun.
- the phasegate was destroyed (lets say in heli) and you need to go there on foot
- your squat gets torn apard by a pack of skulks and you decide to save your gun (and your bacon too)
and so on..
Sprinting and leaping just make the fights more exiting, the game a little more fast paced and just more fun because you waste less time walking slowly in empty corridors.
You need the ability to lose your weapon or no one would ever buy new guns. And you could have some nice chap hold onto your shotgun or flamethrower for you.
The problem with sprinting is it removes a lot of memorable gameplay formulas. With leaping skulks you never see them hiding amongst the map and vents, they just rush into combat. Respawn, and do it again.
The game is meant to feel slow and steady as it begins, and then proceed to get faster and intense with game progression.
I would argue those are really systemic problems that should be fixed a different way then through the removal of sprint. Possibly the cost to benefit ratio of sprinting could be adjusted at some point, either through some kind of stamina, or increased firing inaccuracy during a cooldown period after sprinting long distances, though those kinds of things can be annoying or hard to convey to the player.
Phasegates do reduce the need for sprinting, but they still are a later game addition. Also, keep in mind that some of the internal maps yet to be released are much larger then Tram and Summit, and sprinting will be much more necessary for getting around on those maps.
--Cory