<!--quoteo(post=1861070:date=Jul 16 2011, 10:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jul 16 2011, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Phasegates do reduce the need for sprinting, but they still are a later game addition. Also, keep in mind that some of the internal maps yet to be released are much larger then Tram and Summit, and sprinting will be much more necessary for getting around on those maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea how huge maps you plan on doing but the phasegates are bound to be standard especially when player count gets 16 players or higher the gain is too huge compared to a1 or w1. I would not call it lategame either you can get it researched in 3-4 minutes or so depending on the extractors you place.
Sprint aint the end of the world but to me it seems just a bad influence.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
isnt infestation already affecting sprint? (slowing down) if the actual problem is marines constantly rushing into the hive like lemmings and are successful, make alien defense little bit more effective (disable sprint on infestation entirely), aswell as increase gorge heal maybe. i think we can get rid of this problem with other tweaks / balances than removing sprint, to me it doesnt seem the real source of the problem (its more related to p.res and the option to buy weapons yourself, rather than waiting for a coordianted push initiated by the comm with weapon drops).
so, such a 'lemming-strategy' shouldnt be valid / successful, i totally agree. i hope that gets fixed without removal of sprint
<!--quoteo(post=1861070:date=Jul 16 2011, 09:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jul 16 2011, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue those are really systemic problems that should be fixed a different way then through the removal of sprint. Possibly the cost to benefit ratio of sprinting could be adjusted at some point, either through some kind of stamina, or increased firing inaccuracy during a cooldown period after sprinting long distances, though those kinds of things can be annoying or hard to convey to the player.
Phasegates do reduce the need for sprinting, but they still are a later game addition. Also, keep in mind that some of the internal maps yet to be released are much larger then Tram and Summit, and sprinting will be much more necessary for getting around on those maps.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really all of those issues are just indicative of aliens not having much in the way of defences, if they could place whips or hydras to the point where they can smack marines around if they try to run past them, it'd solve almost all the problems with sprint.
One way sprint could work is the same as in Day of defeat: source. You have a stamina bar and the lower your stamina the lower your normal running speed. If you sprint and use all your stamina then you will be moving really slowly for a short time as it restores. It means that sprinting is used for short distances and to run to safety but rarely used to run into combat as your slow speed would make you an easy target. When you stand still your stamina bar restores quicker than when you are moving.
I don't really see the problem with sprint as it is now though. It's only used for getting around the map a little quicker, it's not like it makes marines able to chase aliens down as they are all faster. The only thing I don't like about it is the short delay once you let go of sprint before you can fire again. I'd rather have a stamina bar or some other method to stop marines running into combat than taking away control like this (even only for a second). I think it'd better to have a disadvantage than to completely remove the ability to shoot back.
I've not read one good reason for why it should be removed.
<!--quoteo(post=1861072:date=Jul 16 2011, 03:23 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 16 2011, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no idea how huge maps you plan on doing but the phasegates are bound to be standard especially when player count gets 16 players or higher the gain is too huge compared to a1 or w1. I would not call it lategame either you can get it researched in 3-4 minutes or so depending on the extractors you place.
Sprint aint the end of the world but to me it seems just a bad influence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this game, technological end game happens after around 10 minutes when aliens get fades and marines get other cool ######, and the actually chronological end game doesn't occur for another 20 minutes.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
The short delay is so people can't sprint around and shoot in battle. Otherwise it would be totally overpowered.
And phase gates aren't really late game. You can sometimes see people building phasegates before they build a robotics factory. And I'm sure with the larger maps, you'll see more phase gates in key areas the marines control.
<!--quoteo(post=1861089:date=Jul 16 2011, 11:27 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 16 2011, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The short delay is so people can't sprint around and shoot in battle. Otherwise it would be totally overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I understand why it's there. I think there's a better way to give marines a disadvantage when sprinting into battle without completely removing their ability to shoot. If you had a system similar to the stamina bar I mentioned then you would be at a huge disadvantage if you sprinted into battle and 99 times out of 100 you would die. But by just giving the player a big disadvantage you leave the possibility that they could do something awesome, so 1 time out of 100 you might pull of a sick shot even when you were up against it. E.g. if you were sprinting away from a group of skulks and ran into another.
Currently you just lose the ability to shoot for a short time so those situations will never happen. For me it also feels frustrating when I feel like there is nothing I can do and control is taken away like this. I think it's always better to leave an option for the player, even if it is really difficult to pull off.
I found the lack of sprint in NS1 quite frustrating when moving long distances with a lower probability of encountering combat. I felt like I always needed to mash my w key harder to get moving faster.
Sprinting provides a pressure valve against frustration. It is a risk/reward tradeoff. I like to think of my character in a game as an extension of myself, and I sure wouldn't just jog around slowly everywhere with my weapon at the ready.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1861104:date=Jul 16 2011, 11:52 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jul 16 2011, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I found the lack of sprint in NS1 quite frustrating when moving long distances with a lower probability of encountering combat. I felt like I always needed to mash my w key harder to get moving faster.
Sprinting provides a pressure valve against frustration. It is a risk/reward tradeoff. I like to think of my character in a game as an extension of myself, and I sure wouldn't just jog around slowly everywhere with my weapon at the ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My shrink says I need an outlet for my aggression! I tend to prefer shooting aliens versus running, but hey that might be personal preference of course :P
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2011
Perhaps the sprint can lock your camera so you can't turn while sprinting. So you only sprint in one direction, instead of quickly sprinting around the enemy base.
And take inspiration from bad company 2 where you only need to hold the sprint key to sprint. Instead of button combinations.
Of course, I'd take a walk slower button any other day. Especially if marine footstep sounds go back to their original volume.
Hopefully the devs try out the gameplay without sprint a few time at least.
seeing marines who can sprint the whole map, and be at some locations faster then aliens, makes sprint pretty frustration for aliens who suppose to be faster than marines.
I totally agree with original poster, sprint indeed must be removed.
edit
have sprint disabled on infestation at least, current sprint way to overpowered, it needs to be adjusted so marines cannot just outrun aliens easily. aliens should always be faster than marines when running, aliens are based more on movement.
Marines cannot be at anywhere faster than aliens, skulks move as fast as a sprinting marine, don't have to use the armory, don't have to build an IP at the start, can climb or jump over any obstacle, can leap to move faster, and can use vents.
Marines are in no way, shape, or form, faster than aliens, so stop saying they are.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1861114:date=Jul 16 2011, 08:45 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 16 2011, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines cannot be at anywhere faster than aliens, skulks move as fast as a sprinting marine, don't have to use the armory, don't have to build an IP at the start, can climb or jump over any obstacle, can leap to move faster, and can use vents.
Marines are in no way, shape, or form, faster than aliens, so stop saying they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks have to chew on power nodes all day. And generally a minute in the game marines are already shooting your resource tower in reactor.
Things like going into vents and past obstacles will be made easier when jetpacks make it into the game.
I'm just supporting the hive 2 leap idea. Which without bringing unfairness, the only way to do it is to remove sprinting. Or make marine sprint some tech research..like speed boots. lol.
Having leap at hive 2 would get skulks destroyed at the moment, especially with slow on hit. Until they add a different movement system that makes it easier to avoid, leap needs to stay.
Don't know why you want to remove all these things and slow the game down even more than it already is. I don't want to spend the start of the round running across a map for a few minutes before I get into combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1861116:date=Jul 16 2011, 04:50 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 16 2011, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks have to chew on power nodes all day. And generally a minute in the game marines are already shooting your resource tower in reactor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they don't <i>have to</i>. Chomping on powernodes is a ig waste of time and should only be done if the marines are not pushing. (ohnce I had an commander who kept rebuilding the powernodes to distract skulks from fighting.. and suceed with it) And Aliens are at the RTs in Vent or Flight way before a marine can manage to get to reactor.
This has nothing to do with sprinting.. more with tactics ;)
So far I haven't read a single argument why sprinting should be removed.. exept for that leap can be put back to Tech2 again.
Removing sprint and leap would...<!--quoteo(post=1861138:date=Jul 16 2011, 09:35 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 16 2011, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) slow the game down even more than it already is. I don't want to spend the start of the round running across a map for a few minutes before I get into combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, we don't need ADHD like gameplay as CoD has, but to slow will bore the most players away.
<!--quoteo(post=1861085:date=Jul 16 2011, 04:06 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 16 2011, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really see the problem with sprint as it is now though. It's only used for getting around the map a little quicker, it's not like it makes marines able to chase aliens down as they are all faster. The only thing I don't like about it is the short delay once you let go of sprint before you can fire again. I'd rather have a stamina bar or some other method to stop marines running into combat than taking away control like this (even only for a second). I think it'd better to have a disadvantage than to completely remove the ability to shoot back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i too think the time delay between shooting is frustrating. it's a little much. obviously there should be a delay, but i don't think it should be as bad as it is now. other than that, i think sprinting is fine. i don't think any other restrictions are necessary either.
aside from the marines, movement in ns2 is really fluid. gorge's belly slide might be a little sloppy but i think that's how it's meant to be. otherwise it doesn't feel slidey. the fluidity of ns2 allows for tactics to shine. i think what we have here is a lack of tactics. apparently sprinting allows marines to rush and completely overtake the aliens with an unfair advantage. never mind the fact that aliens are faster and more maneuverable.
<!--quoteo(post=1861104:date=Jul 17 2011, 01:52 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jul 17 2011, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I found the lack of sprint in NS1 quite frustrating when moving long distances with a lower probability of encountering combat. I felt like I always needed to mash my w key harder to get moving faster.
Sprinting provides a pressure valve against frustration. It is a risk/reward tradeoff. I like to think of my character in a game as an extension of myself, and I sure wouldn't just jog around slowly everywhere with my weapon at the ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 had sprint, you just needed to hug the wall while moving. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1861162:date=Jul 17 2011, 11:02 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Jul 17 2011, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No they don't <i>have to</i>. Chomping on powernodes is a ig waste of time and should only be done if the marines are not pushing. (ohnce I had an commander who kept rebuilding the powernodes to distract skulks from fighting.. and suceed with it) And Aliens are at the RTs in Vent or Flight way before a marine can manage to get to reactor.
This has nothing to do with sprinting.. more with tactics ;)
So far I haven't read a single argument why sprinting should be removed.. exept for that leap can be put back to Tech2 again.
Removing sprint and leap would...
Okay, we don't need ADHD like gameplay as CoD has, but to slow will bore the most players away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer to play skulk and when playing summit I'm usually the 1st one to get to flight control. then I sit there and wait for the 1st extractor and take it out. and keep harassing that location.
that would not be possible if I wanted to kill all powernodes that's in the way. So in that situation the problem isn't sprint.
I do like the ability to sprint, however skulks having leap with 1 hive is a bit annoying. There would be a lot more tatics involved if they couldn't just right click to be within chomping distance of your legs
Comments
I have no idea how huge maps you plan on doing but the phasegates are bound to be standard especially when player count gets 16 players or higher the gain is too huge compared to a1 or w1. I would not call it lategame either you can get it researched in 3-4 minutes or so depending on the extractors you place.
Sprint aint the end of the world but to me it seems just a bad influence.
if the actual problem is marines constantly rushing into the hive like lemmings and are successful,
make alien defense little bit more effective (disable sprint on infestation entirely), aswell as increase
gorge heal maybe. i think we can get rid of this problem with other tweaks / balances than removing
sprint, to me it doesnt seem the real source of the problem (its more related to p.res and
the option to buy weapons yourself, rather than waiting for a coordianted push initiated by the comm
with weapon drops).
so, such a 'lemming-strategy' shouldnt be valid / successful, i totally agree. i hope that gets fixed
without removal of sprint
Phasegates do reduce the need for sprinting, but they still are a later game addition. Also, keep in mind that some of the internal maps yet to be released are much larger then Tram and Summit, and sprinting will be much more necessary for getting around on those maps.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really all of those issues are just indicative of aliens not having much in the way of defences, if they could place whips or hydras to the point where they can smack marines around if they try to run past them, it'd solve almost all the problems with sprint.
I don't really see the problem with sprint as it is now though. It's only used for getting around the map a little quicker, it's not like it makes marines able to chase aliens down as they are all faster. The only thing I don't like about it is the short delay once you let go of sprint before you can fire again. I'd rather have a stamina bar or some other method to stop marines running into combat than taking away control like this (even only for a second). I think it'd better to have a disadvantage than to completely remove the ability to shoot back.
I've not read one good reason for why it should be removed.
Sprint aint the end of the world but to me it seems just a bad influence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this game, technological end game happens after around 10 minutes when aliens get fades and marines get other cool ######, and the actually chronological end game doesn't occur for another 20 minutes.
And phase gates aren't really late game. You can sometimes see people building phasegates before they build a robotics factory.
And I'm sure with the larger maps, you'll see more phase gates in key areas the marines control.
then i was like : hm- pretty solid points there
then i lol'd
i agree +1 and stuff
Yeah, I understand why it's there. I think there's a better way to give marines a disadvantage when sprinting into battle without completely removing their ability to shoot. If you had a system similar to the stamina bar I mentioned then you would be at a huge disadvantage if you sprinted into battle and 99 times out of 100 you would die. But by just giving the player a big disadvantage you leave the possibility that they could do something awesome, so 1 time out of 100 you might pull of a sick shot even when you were up against it. E.g. if you were sprinting away from a group of skulks and ran into another.
Currently you just lose the ability to shoot for a short time so those situations will never happen. For me it also feels frustrating when I feel like there is nothing I can do and control is taken away like this. I think it's always better to leave an option for the player, even if it is really difficult to pull off.
Sprinting provides a pressure valve against frustration. It is a risk/reward tradeoff. I like to think of my character in a game as an extension of myself, and I sure wouldn't just jog around slowly everywhere with my weapon at the ready.
Sprinting provides a pressure valve against frustration. It is a risk/reward tradeoff. I like to think of my character in a game as an extension of myself, and I sure wouldn't just jog around slowly everywhere with my weapon at the ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My shrink says I need an outlet for my aggression! I tend to prefer shooting aliens versus running, but hey that might be personal preference of course :P
And take inspiration from bad company 2 where you only need to hold the sprint key to sprint. Instead of button combinations.
Of course, I'd take a walk slower button any other day. Especially if marine footstep sounds go back to their original volume.
Hopefully the devs try out the gameplay without sprint a few time at least.
I totally agree with original poster, sprint indeed must be removed.
edit
have sprint disabled on infestation at least, current sprint way to overpowered, it needs to be adjusted so marines cannot just outrun aliens easily. aliens should always be faster than marines when running, aliens are based more on movement.
Marines are in no way, shape, or form, faster than aliens, so stop saying they are.
Marines are in no way, shape, or form, faster than aliens, so stop saying they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks have to chew on power nodes all day. And generally a minute in the game marines are already shooting your resource tower in reactor.
Things like going into vents and past obstacles will be made easier when jetpacks make it into the game.
I'm just supporting the hive 2 leap idea. Which without bringing unfairness, the only way to do it is to remove sprinting. Or make marine sprint some tech research..like speed boots. lol.
Don't know why you want to remove all these things and slow the game down even more than it already is. I don't want to spend the start of the round running across a map for a few minutes before I get into combat.
No they don't <i>have to</i>. Chomping on powernodes is a ig waste of time and should only be done if the marines are not pushing. (ohnce I had an commander who kept rebuilding the powernodes to distract skulks from fighting.. and suceed with it) And Aliens are at the RTs in Vent or Flight way before a marine can manage to get to reactor.
This has nothing to do with sprinting.. more with tactics ;)
So far I haven't read a single argument why sprinting should be removed.. exept for that leap can be put back to Tech2 again.
Removing sprint and leap would...<!--quoteo(post=1861138:date=Jul 16 2011, 09:35 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 16 2011, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) slow the game down even more than it already is. I don't want to spend the start of the round running across a map for a few minutes before I get into combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, we don't need ADHD like gameplay as CoD has, but to slow will bore the most players away.
+1 for no Sprint.
i too think the time delay between shooting is frustrating. it's a little much. obviously there should be a delay, but i don't think it should be as bad as it is now. other than that, i think sprinting is fine. i don't think any other restrictions are necessary either.
aside from the marines, movement in ns2 is really fluid. gorge's belly slide might be a little sloppy but i think that's how it's meant to be. otherwise it doesn't feel slidey. the fluidity of ns2 allows for tactics to shine. i think what we have here is a lack of tactics. apparently sprinting allows marines to rush and completely overtake the aliens with an unfair advantage. never mind the fact that aliens are faster and more maneuverable.
Sprinting provides a pressure valve against frustration. It is a risk/reward tradeoff. I like to think of my character in a game as an extension of myself, and I sure wouldn't just jog around slowly everywhere with my weapon at the ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 had sprint, you just needed to hug the wall while moving. ;)
This has nothing to do with sprinting.. more with tactics ;)
So far I haven't read a single argument why sprinting should be removed.. exept for that leap can be put back to Tech2 again.
Removing sprint and leap would...
Okay, we don't need ADHD like gameplay as CoD has, but to slow will bore the most players away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer to play skulk and when playing summit I'm usually the 1st one to get to flight control. then I sit there and wait for the 1st extractor and take it out. and keep harassing that location.
that would not be possible if I wanted to kill all powernodes that's in the way.
So in that situation the problem isn't sprint.