[181] Lerk gas

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1862930:date=Jul 23 2011, 08:55 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 23 2011, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spore damage is actually respectable now. Seven seconds is plenty of time to run out of a Spore cloud. The problems with Spore now are, its cheap energy cost (too spammable), and the delay in warning (the particle cloud grows too slowly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Bypassing armor makes those upgrades practically useless from the marines point of view. Maybe its just me, but I didn't see any serious problems with the lerk spore spray in B180 (except for the graphical issues).

kaffaljidhma

I'd like to put forth the motion that shotguns did the same thing to alien armor upgrades. However, shotguns can't be nerfed much more since they're burst damage: Each additional shot until a kill results in a massive balance change. Perhaps now that lerk spore walls are gaining respect, we'll see more weapon variety and perhaps buffs to more finely tuneable weapons down the line.

I want a shotgunner to take a look at a lerk and bug out of there if there's not an attack of opportunity. I want groups of marines to have at least one long range gunner with them, perhaps generating a niche of anti-lerk duty. I don't want to see a marine with an indistinguishable playstyle from a skulk.

IronHorse

spamming isnt the issue, never has been. in fact its a valid tactic of area denial - the purpose of the gas. dont remove this feature please just because a balance on the other scale wasn't made simultaneously. as others have said, adjust the dps to account for the change in seconds it takes to make a kill.

and to those that say it isnt overpowered,
1. have you seen how many people play lerk now??
2. running through gas takes about 5 - 7 sec since its rightfully "spammable" which is enough to kill you.

GeneralBowser

Exactly the spamable part, on ns1 you could do only about 3 clouds before your adrenaline ran out, and the fact it has instant effect instead of from the moment rines can see the cloud. Top that with uber fast movement (on ns1 you had to press jump to go up, here you just point like your in spectator mode, that combined with its speed makes them frogs), and you have a lil rambo lerk :)

You also have no defence against them..eg no exo suits ;)

wulf 21

Ummm, we tried it out in a clanmatch yesterday and we just didn't need the fades. Just a few lerks bombing the marines base and some skulks destroying the IPs at the same time. If this isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

Maybe it doesn't feel that way in some public matches cause not many people play as lerk. But as soon as there are some lerks and they just spam the whole base with lerk gas... where exactly do you want to run away then?

As others mentioned, either stop it being spammable (yes, it is... some people just don't do it). This would make it an effective area-denial weapon: shoot a spore in the way, energy, regen, shoot next. Because of high damage people won't just run through.

Or lower the damage to a point that the time to kill a 0-upgrade marine would stay the same (that way making spores nearly the same at gamestart and still useful at game end)

I think until next build we really need to temporarily introduce a one-lerk-at-a-time rule.

twiliteblue

<!--quoteo(post=1862933:date=Jul 23 2011, 09:18 PM:name=Hakujin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hakujin @ Jul 23 2011, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You crazy. Running through a spore cloud from one end to the other does ~50 damage. And lerk players have already figured out hos to turn entire rooms and halls into gas chambers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea the Spore being an area denial tool that Marines can't simply run thru (turn around, sprint out of it ASAP, instead of charging through the ENTIRE cloud!). Increasing the cost of Spore will mean one Lerk will only be able to spore a small area. Although a team of Lerks will still be able to cover a large area such as the Marine Start. But since Lerk Spore clouds don't stack in damage, Med Packs are quite effectively at negating their damage (take two every 7 seconds).

<!--quoteo(post=1862947:date=Jul 23 2011, 10:40 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 23 2011, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bypassing armor makes those upgrades practically useless from the marines point of view. Maybe its just me, but I didn't see any serious problems with the lerk spore spray in B180 (except for the graphical issues).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do raise a good point. But then again, Fade currently receives no benefit from team attack upgrades (since Build 180 due to a bug). Lerk Spore damage was too low in B180, considering the risks the Lerk was taking, by flying close to Marines. Balancing a game by numbers is quite an art.

IronHorse

<!--quoteo(post=1862964:date=Jul 24 2011, 12:47 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 24 2011, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea the Spore being an area denial tool that Marines can't simply run thru<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

this.

and yea the instant hurt before visuals are displayed needs work.

Arclyte

I have yet to win a game as marine. Nearly every game has devolved into 3+ Lerks flapping around spamming what might as well be Zyklon B.

Anyone wishing to maintain their sanity will play Kharaa until 182

Kalabalana

Advanced armory now sells facemasks for 5 res, that are not recyclable upon soldier death.
PROBLEM SOLVED :D

peregrinus

How about the Lerk spore cloud being more powerful the longer the left click is held down, so you can make a really potent cloud which takes all your energy, or a few less potent clouds.

Sewlek

thats almost the same as stacking damage from multiple clouds, which got removed
what you guys think how much the spores should get delayed before doing damage? im testing currently
with 0.3 seconds

IronHorse

what does that mean, schimmel? (btw i like your new avatar MUCH better.)
why are you delaying the spore damage at all? to just match up with the visuals?

Sewlek

thats one reason and it felt somehow unintended

ZycaR

All time I play ths patch the one lerk can stop group of marines attacking the hive.
The secont anoying thing is to one lerk can turn whole marine start into gas chamber only by one flight trought... and kill some of them easily.

that is rlly anoying and ruin the good feeling of the game :(


.. make me sad face

BTW: Great work on cysts and fade / SG balance !

Deadzone

<!--quoteo(post=1863069:date=Jul 24 2011, 01:26 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 24 2011, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what does that mean, schimmel? (btw i like your new avatar MUCH better.)
why are you delaying the spore damage at all? to just match up with the visuals?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Spores aren't the only thing that need improved visuals to match damage. While I know this is technically a slightly different issue, I have a LOT of trouble telling when I'm taking damage from anything. Usually this has to do with turrets when I'm playing an alien, so when I think I'm safe I'm actually getting hit now and then as it tries to aim at me.

Not a lot of fun dying without understanding why. Some kind if "pain" sound or impact sound would be great. Even if it's just a little pinging noise right now as a placeholder, it would be great to have an audio cue.

Floodinator

Only 2 things really work against Lerks now:

1. Flamer
2. Sentrys

LMG and SG are almost usless against Lerks now, especially at the Marinestart.
So increasing the energycost would stop that Problem.
It is way better now than in Build 180 (Marines don't ignore it now) but makes the other classes almoste usless. 3 Lerks and it is GG!

Edit: +1 @Deadzones post!

TrC

Hitboxes

Wilson

<!--quoteo(post=1863165:date=Jul 25 2011, 01:21 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 25 2011, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hitboxes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What's wrong with them? I think it's more that the lerks move so erratic and change altitude quickly that it's hard to hit them. I'm not sure if shooting their wings does any damage though.

Dusk

Lerks were perfect last patch. I know the idea was to make them front line fighters and they were amazing up close. the gas just makes them invincible since marines can never give chase.

Deadzone

<!--quoteo(post=1863185:date=Jul 24 2011, 08:51 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 24 2011, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's wrong with them? I think it's more that the lerks move so erratic and change altitude quickly that it's hard to hit them. I'm not sure if shooting their wings does any damage though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Just making the hitboxes a little bigger around the lerk would be an improvement. Don't have to make the wings fully hittable, just make it easier to hit the body. Lerks are skinny little twigs in this game - in NS1 they were kinda hunched over, and felt very "cube" shaped when it came to hitting them.

Navi491

I agree that the lerks hitbox needs to be increased in size as i have charged at flying lerks with a shotgun and fired at them at extremely close range with lvl3 weapons...and its as if they either didnt get hit or its as if i hit them at the "edge" of their hitbox. I dont mind the lerks current spores ignoring armor, but perhaps just lower the damage they do.

Another option for countering spores would be that as marines get armor upgrades they gain an resistance to spores. The current black armored marines have what looks like a respirator on their armor, perhaps as marines armor is upgraded to lvl 1 through lvl3 they gain a respirator on their player model and as they level up their armor upgrades they gain a greater resistance to the damage spores does as their respirator limits the internal damage spores would do to marines that inhale the gas.

Marines who wear exosuits once they are added will not at all be affected by spores regardless of upgraded lvl of armor because the exosuit already would have full body protection from any form of spores entering their body.

I believe this is the best option as it would allow spores to remain the same as they are now, but allow marines to upgrade their armor and gain a resistance to the damage done by spores by giving the marines a respirator that improves with each armor upgrade.

IronHorse

<!--quoteo(post=1863221:date=Jul 24 2011, 10:43 PM:name=Navi491)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Navi491 @ Jul 24 2011, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe this is the best option as it would allow spores to remain the same as they are now, but allow marines to upgrade their armor and gain a resistance to the damage done by spores by giving the marines a respirator that improves with each armor upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i'd agree, except for the fact that it takes how long to get lerk currently when joining a server? maybe 5 minutes?
it will take muuucchhh longer for a team of exosuits. and thats the endgame for that team, whereas the lerk is maybe 2nd level up?
(gorge is arguably the same level as a skulk due to its primarily support role)

Navi491

Well you dont need exosuits to counter spores....as i mentioned in my post as marines upgrade their armor they gain a % of resistance towards spores which increases with each lvl upgrade of armor. This would serve as a way to counter spores. Another option would be to make spores a 2nd hive ability while leaving it as effective as it is now.

Taxen0

slight damage reduction to gas, and improved accuracy to the spikes.

Wilson

<!--quoteo(post=1863210:date=Jul 25 2011, 05:31 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 25 2011, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just making the hitboxes a little bigger around the lerk would be an improvement. Don't have to make the wings fully hittable, just make it easier to hit the body. Lerks are skinny little twigs in this game - in NS1 they were kinda hunched over, and felt very "cube" shaped when it came to hitting them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You want to make the hitboxes bigger without making the model bigger? Wouldn't it make more sense to just make the lerks body a little bigger so he's easier to hit. They could also give something like 50% damage to hits on the wings.

Sewlek

<!--quoteo(post=1863253:date=Jul 25 2011, 04:45 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 25 2011, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->slight damage reduction to gas, and improved accuracy to the spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

you know what happens if you increase accuracy of spikes? :)

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kSpikeMaxDamage = 30
kSpikeFireDelay = 0.1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

twiliteblue

<!--quoteo(post=1863253:date=Jul 25 2011, 01:45 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 25 2011, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->slight damage reduction to gas, and improved accuracy to the spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The low Spike accuracy is mainly because of the projectile speed reduction. Projectiles do not receive lag compensation, so you have to lead your target to hit them, which can be difficult on current game performances.

@Schimmel: Spike deals 30 damage only at 0 range, at that range, it is impossible to miss. :)
Spike usually inflicts around 20 Light damage at close range, which equates to only 6 damage to health, and 3.5 damage to armour per spike.

twiliteblue

(double post deleted)

Chris0132

I am glad to see everyone else complaining about the lerk hitbox, it's been doing my head in for at least three versions.

Wilson

<!--quoteo(post=1863313:date=Jul 25 2011, 02:49 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 25 2011, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am glad to see everyone else complaining about the lerk hitbox, it's been doing my head in for at least three versions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please someone show me a video of what's wrong with it.