<!--quoteo(post=1863486:date=Jul 26 2011, 01:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 26 2011, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats different sorta from hitboxes. thats netcode issues. specifically client prediction. you tube videos are everywhere about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aren't the two intrinsically linked though? i dont really know much about netcode but I do know that hit detection in FPS in my experience has gotten a lot worse over the last ten years, despite better technology and internet.
<!--quoteo(post=1863471:date=Jul 26 2011, 02:19 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 26 2011, 02:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually most modern FPS games have hitboxes that are virtually the same as the models (see the video I posted earlier). It was only older shooters that had those big blocky hitboxes that would count "misses" as hits. IMO, this is just bad design and was a limitation of the time. I don't really think it's a valid solution at all, but you are free to disagree.
Anyway, they are now making it so that shooting the wings will now count as hits, so that should make the lerks a bit easier to hit (and makes sense).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but most modern FPS games are call of duty clones where you spend most of your time shooting slow moving guys in the head.
NS1 is very much in the style of an older game, with you shooting *AT* very fast moving enemies, and as long as you shoot *at* them well enough, you should get kills.
It isn't a game where precision is really useful, you're just shooting at the enemies, not trying to hit them in the head from across the map with a sniper rifle.
<!--quoteo(post=1863492:date=Jul 26 2011, 03:21 AM:name=creek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (creek @ Jul 26 2011, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aren't the two intrinsically linked though? i dont really know much about netcode but I do know that hit detection in FPS in my experience has gotten a lot worse over the last ten years, despite better technology and internet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Collision boxes are effectively the approximate targets a person needs to hit. They are more simplified versions of the visible high-polygon models used for the player characters.
The netcode communicates where the Client and Server think those targets are.
In the case of projectiles, the netcode also needs to communicate where the Client and Server think those projectiles are.
Different games have different solutions, but most games nowadays are Client driven. This means that the Client says "I'm doing this" and the server makes some basic checks to confirm the action is possible within the rules of the game then, later on, checks if it matches its data exactly. If there is a significant disparity, the server corrects the Client's action to pull it back in line (the trick to decent network programming is doing this in the most invisible way, see: <a href="http://www.bungie.net/inside/publications.aspx#pub31070)" target="_blank">http://www.bungie.net/inside/publications.aspx#pub31070</a>). The server does this for all Clients on the server, for the many actions each is undertaking. (RTS games operate differently, see <a href="http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/what-every-programmer-needs-to-know-about-game-networking/" target="_blank">here</a> for a rough explanation of Lock Step).
Terribad connection speeds obviously affect things. In general the US has terribad connection speeds. Wireless as opposed to wired connections makes this even worse.
Not really applicable to NS yet, but on consoles you generally have peers hosting the servers as opposed to dedicated servers. If you don't have decent QoS (Quality of Service) checks for selecting Hosts, you're kinda screwed from the get-go.
That's pretty much a layman's explanation of how it works.
Why has it gotten worse? Quite simply, games are more complex. For example we have higher fidelity in player models, which means we need higher fidelity hitboxes. In an FPS, we have more weapons with more unique effects and sound effects. We have far, far more animations and fluid transitions between animations than 10 years ago. We also have more visual effects and a greater capacity for sound effects than before. While VFX, animation transitions and physics effects (such as destructibles and ragdolls) may generally be Client-side only, when the different states and effects are displayed still needs to be synced as they convey important, often crucial information. Also, connection speeds have gotten better so people's tolerances have gotten more acute. But it's mainly a question of data transfer. People have come to expect prettier and more visceral game experiences, but our networking infrastructure has not developed globally at the same pace to meet that demand. Speeds have gotten better but we are pushing much more data.
Spores are to weak now for a Range of 10m. A Marine has to come really close to get affected and the can stay for almost 15s in it. A skulk bites 16 Marines in ( with 2 bite kill). It should be a bit higher around 12s. Or the range should be increased so that it is higher than the SG range (15m) to 17m.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Agreed that Lerk Spores are overall too weak now. Even though the time it takes to kill a Marine is the same as in NS1, but because Spores deal no damage to armour, Marines are able to recover extremely quickly with the help of Medpacks.
Pre build 180, Spores had long range, and was an effective weapon of attrition. Build 181 dramatically increased Spore damage, so it became an extremely effective medium-range area denial weapon. Now in build 183, however, Spores has become an trivial game element with little impact on the game, just like Fury and Umbra.
Concur, way too weak. Went lerk several times and the marines simply ignored spores altogether. It needs to have a denial effect. You need to hurt when your in it and know you have to get out fast. Just like NS1.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1864755:date=Jul 29 2011, 02:20 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jul 29 2011, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are more simplified versions of the visible high-polygon models used for the player characters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats being too nice, they are generally large boxes, thus the therm, "hitboxes".
ending in the most modern fps, BC2 the best method is Doom 3's idtech 4(?) engine that uses per pixel hit detection... sooo much harder to hit people but its seriously the way to go, give it a try.
Comments
aren't the two intrinsically linked though? i dont really know much about netcode but I do know that hit detection in FPS in my experience has gotten a lot worse over the last ten years, despite better technology and internet.
Anyway, they are now making it so that shooting the wings will now count as hits, so that should make the lerks a bit easier to hit (and makes sense).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but most modern FPS games are call of duty clones where you spend most of your time shooting slow moving guys in the head.
NS1 is very much in the style of an older game, with you shooting *AT* very fast moving enemies, and as long as you shoot *at* them well enough, you should get kills.
It isn't a game where precision is really useful, you're just shooting at the enemies, not trying to hit them in the head from across the map with a sniper rifle.
How do marines know what is skulk's or other khaa lifeform's head ?
I think this is the reason why NS doesn't have "headshots" :)
The netcode communicates where the Client and Server think those targets are.
In the case of projectiles, the netcode also needs to communicate where the Client and Server think those projectiles are.
Different games have different solutions, but most games nowadays are Client driven. This means that the Client says "I'm doing this" and the server makes some basic checks to confirm the action is possible within the rules of the game then, later on, checks if it matches its data exactly. If there is a significant disparity, the server corrects the Client's action to pull it back in line (the trick to decent network programming is doing this in the most invisible way, see: <a href="http://www.bungie.net/inside/publications.aspx#pub31070)" target="_blank">http://www.bungie.net/inside/publications.aspx#pub31070</a>). The server does this for all Clients on the server, for the many actions each is undertaking. (RTS games operate differently, see <a href="http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/what-every-programmer-needs-to-know-about-game-networking/" target="_blank">here</a> for a rough explanation of Lock Step).
Terribad connection speeds obviously affect things. In general the US has terribad connection speeds. Wireless as opposed to wired connections makes this even worse.
Not really applicable to NS yet, but on consoles you generally have peers hosting the servers as opposed to dedicated servers. If you don't have decent QoS (Quality of Service) checks for selecting Hosts, you're kinda screwed from the get-go.
That's pretty much a layman's explanation of how it works.
Why has it gotten worse? Quite simply, games are more complex. For example we have higher fidelity in player models, which means we need higher fidelity hitboxes. In an FPS, we have more weapons with more unique effects and sound effects. We have far, far more animations and fluid transitions between animations than 10 years ago. We also have more visual effects and a greater capacity for sound effects than before. While VFX, animation transitions and physics effects (such as destructibles and ragdolls) may generally be Client-side only, when the different states and effects are displayed still needs to be synced as they convey important, often crucial information. Also, connection speeds have gotten better so people's tolerances have gotten more acute. But it's mainly a question of data transfer. People have come to expect prettier and more visceral game experiences, but our networking infrastructure has not developed globally at the same pace to meet that demand. Speeds have gotten better but we are pushing much more data.
Pre build 180, Spores had long range, and was an effective weapon of attrition. Build 181 dramatically increased Spore damage, so it became an extremely effective medium-range area denial weapon. Now in build 183, however, Spores has become an trivial game element with little impact on the game, just like Fury and Umbra.
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thats being too nice, they are generally large boxes, thus the therm, "hitboxes".
some examples:
<a href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/mrbrownwings/hitbox.png" target="_blank">http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/mrbrownwings/hitbox.png</a>
<a href="http://enemyterritorytips.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/strafe-left-nade2.jpg?w=277" target="_blank">http://enemyterritorytips.files.wordpress....nade2.jpg?w=277</a>
<a href="http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/306/boxes4nv.jpg" target="_blank">http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/306/boxes4nv.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1457/hitt.jpg" target="_blank">http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1457/hitt.jpg</a>
ending in the most modern fps, BC2
the best method is Doom 3's idtech 4(?) engine that uses per pixel hit detection... sooo much harder to hit people but its seriously the way to go, give it a try.