Why do marine teams lose?
matso
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
So, marine teams seems to run at a 1-4 win/loss ratio or so ... lets discuss why.
(Lets assume reasonably skilled players; that sucky aliens wins over sucky marines is a given)
My opinion is that its less of a combat disadvantage than a strategic disadvantage.
Problem 1: The marines have no way of securing their base against a wandering skulk, meaning that at least one or possibly two marines needs to stay close to base in order to defend it.
In smaller games (6 or less), this leaves 3-4 marines for offensive operations. 3-4 marines vs 5-6 aliens is a tough job. Also, as soon as the 2nd hive is up, the aliens are free to let the 3-4 marines try to take down a hive while 6 aliens tear up the marine base, easily overcoming any feeble defenses.
Problem 2: Alien economy. It's somewhat hopeless as marines fighting the aliens because you can't touch their economy. Once the research is done, the aliens are bathing in a sea of team res, with nothing to do but spamming down hives, crags and whips. There is only a very small window early in the game when killing alien RT's are more than a momentary inconvinience.
This problem is extreme on summit. The new cysts system comes with the old problem of being able to put down infestation almost without any regard for distance between cysts. On summit you only need to put down 6 cysts in total to reach both Reactor Core and Crevice RT's.
My standard build is build a whip, send the drifters, put down the cysts, build the RTs, upgrade melee1, and then off to combat while waiting for the three RT's to pump 23 team res per minute to the aliens ... hive will start building by the three minute mark.
So, what can be done?
1. A WORKING BEACON.
The marines BADLY needs a working beacon. I've lost about half to one third of my marine games to skulks sneaking through and killing the base while the marines are away - a beacon will allow the marines to do a full-out offensive without taking the risk of loosing the game.
Also, some kind of early game base defense system should be available - while sentries can work in the midgame, building them early in the game means foregoing early armor 1 upgrade, probably the most important upgrade the marines can do (because aliens WILL research melee 1 RIGHT away... it's just so awesome when the marines don't upgrade and you can munch 2-bit marines as peanuts...).
2. Slow down alien res income - on summit, best done by cutting down on the cyst unlimited path length. It will cost 2-3 extra cysts to reach Crevice then, which translates to rougly 1 extra minute to put it down, which moves the 2nd hive drop about a minute into the future as well.
(Lets assume reasonably skilled players; that sucky aliens wins over sucky marines is a given)
My opinion is that its less of a combat disadvantage than a strategic disadvantage.
Problem 1: The marines have no way of securing their base against a wandering skulk, meaning that at least one or possibly two marines needs to stay close to base in order to defend it.
In smaller games (6 or less), this leaves 3-4 marines for offensive operations. 3-4 marines vs 5-6 aliens is a tough job. Also, as soon as the 2nd hive is up, the aliens are free to let the 3-4 marines try to take down a hive while 6 aliens tear up the marine base, easily overcoming any feeble defenses.
Problem 2: Alien economy. It's somewhat hopeless as marines fighting the aliens because you can't touch their economy. Once the research is done, the aliens are bathing in a sea of team res, with nothing to do but spamming down hives, crags and whips. There is only a very small window early in the game when killing alien RT's are more than a momentary inconvinience.
This problem is extreme on summit. The new cysts system comes with the old problem of being able to put down infestation almost without any regard for distance between cysts. On summit you only need to put down 6 cysts in total to reach both Reactor Core and Crevice RT's.
My standard build is build a whip, send the drifters, put down the cysts, build the RTs, upgrade melee1, and then off to combat while waiting for the three RT's to pump 23 team res per minute to the aliens ... hive will start building by the three minute mark.
So, what can be done?
1. A WORKING BEACON.
The marines BADLY needs a working beacon. I've lost about half to one third of my marine games to skulks sneaking through and killing the base while the marines are away - a beacon will allow the marines to do a full-out offensive without taking the risk of loosing the game.
Also, some kind of early game base defense system should be available - while sentries can work in the midgame, building them early in the game means foregoing early armor 1 upgrade, probably the most important upgrade the marines can do (because aliens WILL research melee 1 RIGHT away... it's just so awesome when the marines don't upgrade and you can munch 2-bit marines as peanuts...).
2. Slow down alien res income - on summit, best done by cutting down on the cyst unlimited path length. It will cost 2-3 extra cysts to reach Crevice then, which translates to rougly 1 extra minute to put it down, which moves the 2nd hive drop about a minute into the future as well.
Comments
(Lets assume reasonably skilled players; that sucky aliens wins over sucky marines is a given)
My opinion is that its less of a combat disadvantage than a strategic disadvantage.
Problem 1: The marines have no way of securing their base against a wandering skulk, meaning that at least one or possibly two marines needs to stay close to base in order to defend it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, except sentry guns, not to mention phase gates allowing marines to respond quickly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In smaller games (6 or less), this leaves 3-4 marines for offensive operations. 3-4 marines vs 5-6 aliens is a tough job. Also, as soon as the 2nd hive is up, the aliens are free to let the 3-4 marines try to take down a hive while 6 aliens tear up the marine base, easily overcoming any feeble defenses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't the case. The marines put out vastly more firepower than the 6 skulks. The 3-4 marines with GL's can lay waste to entire rooms of defense and structures while the skulks can only take down a single structure at a time. I haven't even started talking about the ARC.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem 2: Alien economy. It's somewhat hopeless as marines fighting the aliens because you can't touch their economy. Once the research is done, the aliens are bathing in a sea of team res, with nothing to do but spamming down hives, crags and whips. There is only a very small window early in the game when killing alien RT's are more than a momentary inconvinience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply put, you don't need to, you've got vastly better base defense than aliens do. Aliens have a great deal of difficulty taking down marine structures at a rate fast enough to seriously impede their ability to replace them unless of course the commander decides to just leave things undefended. In the end the point of the game is conflict between sides, not one side attacking a hive while the other side attacks a base to see who wins first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This problem is extreme on summit. The new cysts system comes with the old problem of being able to put down infestation almost without any regard for distance between cysts. On summit you only need to put down 6 cysts in total to reach both Reactor Core and Crevice RT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's 120 energy or 18 resources from a gorge.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My standard build is build a whip, send the drifters, put down the cysts, build the RTs, upgrade melee1, and then off to combat while waiting for the three RT's to pump 23 team res per minute to the aliens ... hive will start building by the three minute mark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what happens when the marines go up and kill them?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, what can be done?
1. A WORKING BEACON.
The marines BADLY needs a working beacon. I've lost about half to one third of my marine games to skulks sneaking through and killing the base while the marines are away - a beacon will allow the marines to do a full-out offensive without taking the risk of loosing the game.
Also, some kind of early game base defense system should be available - while sentries can work in the midgame, building them early in the game means foregoing early armor 1 upgrade, probably the most important upgrade the marines can do (because aliens WILL research melee 1 RIGHT away... it's just so awesome when the marines don't upgrade and you can munch 2-bit marines as peanuts...).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, maybe you should defend your base better with sentry guns and not go on a full out assault in the first couple minutes. The biggest factor that causes marines to lose game is overstretching their lines to try and rush. All that happens is they go running out, get stuck in some hydra garden, and the aliens pop around flight control and slag everything while you're all waiting to respawn from your two infantry portals. Marines have to hang back more, push cautiously, withdraw, and repeat, slowly building up a line of defenses the aliens can't breach without forgoing defending their vital interests. If 6 aliens are eating your base then 6 aliens are not defending their hive. As long as one or two marines can keep them distracting from killing your CC the remaining 4 marines can decimate the hive before the aliens even get through your men.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Slow down alien res income - on summit, best done by cutting down on the cyst unlimited path length. It will cost 2-3 extra cysts to reach Crevice then, which translates to rougly 1 extra minute to put it down, which moves the 2nd hive drop about a minute into the future as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The last thing aliens need is more cyst farming. They're easy to kill and defenseless, not to mention they starve. When you take an area just kill them, or hell, even one, the next closest will starve to death and you've delayed them already.
At least on Summit, there are many areas without powernodes (crossroads and crevice). Marines rarely try to secure these areas because they need power packs to do so, and this immediately takes away two resource points that the aliens always have access to.
I also think the shotgun nerf hurt things a lot.
<ol type='1'><li>Marine spawning much easier to destroy
IP health << hive health. This makes a rush or ninja much easier to do. Also, aliens can easily camp an IP and pretty much kill a marine before he has a chance to fight back after responding. </li><li>Speed of dying, respawn, back to the fight (mobility).
This is basically the time it takes from dying to getting back to the fight. The combination of negligible alien respawn time and much faster standard movement means that they can do this much faster than the marines. </li><li>Ability to retreat
Basically, aliens can easily retreat from a losing battle, while marines can't. The most obvious is the fade (blink), but pretty much every other class can get away quick enough. Marines, on the other hand, basically have to kill or be killed, they don't have the speed or ability to retreat if the battle goes south.</li></ol>
What I would do is:
<ol type='1'><li>Up IP health (1.5x to 2x)</li><li>Cause a push-back or instakill for any alien caught on top of the IP when a marine spawns</li><li>Increase marine survivability by<ul><li>Upping base health and armor</li><li>Marines take reduced damaged if crouching</li><li>Make a1/2/3 increases much greater (i.e. a1 = +25 armor, a2 = +75 armor and a3 = +200 armor)</li><li>Making pgs cheaper (10 TRes) and quicker to get (only require obs, no more PG tech research)</li></ul></li></ol>
Marine spawning is certainly easier to destroy, its a lot easier to defend with sentries.
The respawn time of marines is long, of course, dependent on how many IP's there are, but frankly, phase gates let marines get back into the fight as fast and sometimes faster than aliens. Respawn slowdown for marines is more of a factor of mass death, not base respawn speed.
As for retreat, well, that's really dependent. Lerks and fades can retreat pretty well, but they've got to be really careful to get out at the right time, skulks, not so much, they'll typically just eat fire and die if they turn to run. They're the same as marines, you need to retreat before the fights really begun or you're dead.
Fades and lerks are really the only two big exceptions to the rule.
As for summit and power packs, I never understood why people avoided them so much, they're useful, though they should really fall along the same lines as cysts for what they do, supply a limited area and drop for energy, if you want to make them a major part of the game.
Marine spawning is certainly easier to destroy, its a lot easier to defend with sentries.
The respawn time of marines is long, of course, dependent on how many IP's there are, but frankly, phase gates let marines get back into the fight as fast and sometimes faster than aliens. Respawn slowdown for marines is more of a factor of mass death, not base respawn speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but sentries and PGs take a while and quite a bit of TRes to get up and running. Before then, marines have a severe disadvantage and its why early alien rushes are quite effective (though not much fun on the alien side). The alien egg killing is also something that needs to be fixed, but its much less prevalent than IP camping because its much harder to sustain (i.e. you need to keep getting ammo from the comm, fight off any aliens that spawn/attack from other hives/locations, and usually have at least 1-2 other marines there to kill the hive).
<!--quoteo(post=1864926:date=Jul 30 2011, 10:41 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 30 2011, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for retreat, well, that's really dependent. Lerks and fades can retreat pretty well, but they've got to be really careful to get out at the right time, skulks, not so much, they'll typically just eat fire and die if they turn to run. They're the same as marines, you need to retreat before the fights really begun or you're dead.
Fades and lerks are really the only two big exceptions to the rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So ~50% of the alien classes can effectively retreat while only ~0% of marines can retreat when they lose the advantage? I certainly think that's a big problem (which is why you see the 20+/5 K/D ratios of fades and lerks, but not marines). My solution, however, is to give marines more health/armor/ability to withstand attack rather than make them faster to retreat. It should really take 4-5+ bites/swipes rather than 2-3 to kill marines. In effect, aliens have speed and mobility while marines have firepower and armor.
2. Bad commander.
3. Both.
Pick one
We lost a game just like that, a single skulk take out all the ips. But this issue is related to team size, when you have ten marines it's not really a problem because there is always someone in base. Mines would help though.
Yes, marines typically have a rather weak early game and become powerful late game until fades come out because there just isn't much that can kill them. Make them run away, sure, make them die, not so much. IP camping is pretty hard to sustain as you can always put IP's in expansions as well, in the end both types of camping are pretty easy to manage. People don't camp IP's because its easier than killing eggs, they do it because they need the IP down to secure total victory in that location, the command console is hardly as important in taking the base as killing the buildings that allow people to spawn and defend it. That's the real thing, on the flip side, there's also vastly fewer crucial structures to kill (and they can be killed en masse thanks to grenades) in an alien base, all you really need dead is the hive, in the marine base you need the IP's dead, but if you can't manage it (as they're the most protected part) you also need the amory gone, the robotics factory taken apart to prevent swift repairs, and the phase gates down to prevent protection from/of expansions. In the end they're just flat different, alien bases have a single all or nothing structure that's fairly slow to heal but very low maintenance, the marine base has a dozen structures of varying importance all of which are individually easy to fix but require a MAC. As for getting ammo, frankly, there's not much else marine commanders spend on once they're at the hive, ammo and health packs are pretty much it, in my last game we had 170 Tres sitting around that we couldn't get rid of even with expansions practically everywhere and ammo and medpacks basically falling from the sky.(still stalemated though.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So ~50% of the alien classes can effectively retreat while only ~0% of marines can retreat when they lose the advantage? I certainly think that's a big problem (which is why you see the 20+/5 K/D ratios of fades and lerks, but not marines). My solution, however, is to give marines more health/armor/ability to withstand attack rather than make them faster to retreat. It should really take 4-5+ bites/swipes rather than 2-3 to kill marines. In effect, aliens have speed and mobility while marines have firepower and armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that's not how it plays out. A marine with 4-5 bites to kill isn't going to retreat more, he's going to kill more and survive more and that's it. You're not giving him a chance to get away, you're vastly improving his ability to kill aliens. Fades can retreat because that's they're mechanic, I assume that jetpack marines will work in similar fashions. Lerks can retreat because of how marines fight, not because they're made to retreat. They've got ranged weapons and an area denial weapon, thus don't have to get close to the enemy and can hide around corners. A marine could run from a lerk just as easily as a lerk can run from a marine. If a marine hid around a corner only popping out to lob grenades he could evade enemies just as easily as a lerk sitting up in a vent spamming spores on a door way with the threat of skulks preventing marines from advancing.
Marines already have tons of firepower, and compared to skulks they've got tons of health and armor too. The dichotomy isn't firepower and armor vs speed and mobility, its range vs short range. The marines are almost entirely medium and long ranged, the aliens are almost entirely point blank to short range. Honestly, NS2 is a game you really need to play to get good at. As a skulk and as a marine there are some players (or even packs of players) I just decimate over and over again, other players who seem untouchable, a squad of marines who don't have good aim will get ripped apart by a good skulk much less a fade, even with fancy weapons, same is true the other way around. A really accurate marine will destroy a skulk who comes at him at any predicable angle, a not so accurate one will fire, miss, run out of ammo, and be eaten. It's really that simple, this game, with its relatively low rifle damage and high accuracy, relies on you really having good aim.
Lerks can get high K/D because they stick around skulks and just take opportunistic kills, the skulks prevent marines from focusing on the lerk, the lerk works to make the battlefield a nightmare with spores. This would be the same as a squad of 3 shot gun marines and a flame thrower marine, the shotguns prevent the enemy from closing on the flame thrower, the flame thrower makes the battlefield a nightmare for any alien.
Fades are a different story, they're still almost entirely opportunistic, but good fades can kill a marine before getting out, you can, of course stop them, with a flame thrower, but in the end it just ends up as a delayer, not a killer. The fade probably has a little too much health and armor right now and probably costs a little too much as well. A fade against 2 marines should be able to kill 1 and escape damaged, but alive, but a fade against 3 marines should probably eat it if he engages.
<!--quoteo(post=1864941:date=Jul 30 2011, 08:50 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 30 2011, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We lost a game just like that, a single skulk take out all the ips. But this issue is related to team size, when you have ten marines it's not really a problem because there is always someone in base. Mines would help though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No commander I guess? I can't imagine any reason why it wouldn't be noticed.
Then again, I don't recall marines having a "Our Infantry portal is under attack!" Voice notification that aliens have for their hive.
- few commanders actively manage the team, use voice comm etc
This means that marines have to work MUCH more as a team. If they to, they usually can win. But on public servers thats nearly impossible to do most of the time.
But it really is very hard to put the finger on the actual problem.. good thread, keep it going
Or let the IP do a knockback to Aliens biting it when a Marine spawns.
The result is 7 rifle marines fighting 5 fades.
The problem with that is it's a stalemate. If one fade kills all seven marines, he's stuck for 5 minutes trying to whittle down one structure. Rifle marines are powerless against a fade, but they're great against gorges and anything occupied with killing a structure. They're also not bad against structures.
Aliens have poor structures and marines have poor units. It's not uncommon for marines, unable to expand, to turtle up and be completely successful while reliant entirely on their structures, while fades with resource to burn look around stupidly at all the structures they can't kill, even though they control the rest of map.
There is a solution: give aliens stronger endgame structures/units (Onos) AND give marines a greater endgame res pool. Marines should get more personal and team res for doing strictly endgame things.
You'll have Onos vs. 5 flamethrowers and it'll be balanced. No more heliport farm stalemates.
Or let the IP do a knockback to Aliens biting it when a Marine spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually in ns 1 commanders use to build ips next to an electrified turret factory to fry the near by skulks.
...lol what...
In NS, you'd have
1 base builder
1 commander
2 RT guys (or 1, depending on strat)
2-3 pressure
Also, with that, we'd just lay mines down around the ip's or whichever structure needed it, but even then most of the time we didn't do that till a later later, because the commander would just jump out and kill the alien who was on the IP, was never really difficult, still isn't.
In NS, you'd have
1 base builder
1 commander
2 RT guys (or 1, depending on strat)
2-3 pressure
Also, with that, we'd just lay mines down around the ip's or whichever structure needed it, but even then most of the time we didn't do that till a later later, because the commander would just jump out and kill the alien who was on the IP, was never really difficult, still isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
youre either trying to sound like you know everything or youre just picking arguments. I was merely explaining ns1 had a way to deal with skulks on a ip.
There were multiple ways to deal with things in ns1, no right or wrong way with our 2 examples they both achieve the same thing at almost the same cost.
And besides, in ns1 aliens had alot more to do than in ns2, the loner skulks who know what theyre doing wouldent even bother to venture into marine spawn unless it was a group attack. Which is why i think the skulks in marine base in ns2 happens so often since the alien com is doing everything that needs to be done.
I do agree with you however that there are different ways of dealing with things, but usually the best way is the way where the least resources are required to burn to protect something.
here let me do it for you:
"put mines in ns2"
-Mines
-Telefrag (and/or some kind of shockwave with pushback/ electroshock)
-Better performance
...
The initial IP is too good a target to allow the Marines to push too far out. Then their weakness at holding the 2nd RT cripples the Marines in too many games.
I would like to see a strong Marine base in the very early stages that allows the Marines to push out, maybe having the initial IP built into the CS so it's health is combined. This would mean there is little chance of an IP ninja and make the real battle out on the map over RTs.
By just saying someone else's post is bull###### you dont get anywhere.
I think a problem is that marines are kind of squishy early game, extremely even (as a skulk i manage to take out 1-3 players in early game untill they get shotguns/armor/other upgrades.)
Later marines get shotguns/armor and manage to get some ground, this turns back again if the aliens manage to trow down a hive and get fades (and i know everyone is saying you shouldn't even let them build a hive but it happens, a coordinated marine team can take down aliens and a hive, but a coordinated alien team can also easily counter this, esp early game.
The thing is, as soon as aliens have fades marines get slaughtered most of the time.
And even if you say "just have 2 shotgunners and a flamer and the fade is dead" that still takes 3 people to take down a single enemy, in a 6v6 thats 2 fades to keep an entire team busy, while the aliens still have 4 players free to do whatever.
Lag and hit detection doesn't make it much better either, i played a round today in which for some reason me and 3 teammates on marine were shooting a fade for half a minute or more, 1 flamer, 1 shotgunner and 2 rifles, he was burning the entire time yet in the end we still died (although we did take the hive down), now you cant tell me that 4 people with different weapons cant aim at a single fade who cant even blink(although being healed by a hive), all this time, i had a 40ms ping and yet i was lagging like hell.
Seeing how that fade managed to survive 4 players that long AND kill us i would say i was prob. not the only one not hitting ######, even though my aim was correct (and not CoD aim, CS and quake taught me better then that).
So i would say performance is a MAYOR issue when it comes to marines getting their asses handed to them, esp versus fades
As a result marines get dominated like crazy if they leave the base, eventually stuck without ress for weapons, so, what happens? they start turtling their base because as soon as they leave they get shredded by fades and in return aliens cant move forward either because that close to the base the marines can actually defend thanks to for a change being faster to the battle field then an alien who died.
So most of the time when i play marine we get stuck in a loop of being pushed back, pushing back out, trying to take down the 3 expansions, maybe getting 1 or 2, being killed by an army of fades, slowly moving back from spawn to where ever you need to get but by that time the aliens have already reclaimed it and push you back again, repeat.
So, tldr. of my opinion on this.
- preformance needs to be improved a lot
- because the lag marines often miss bullets that they should have hit, same goes for skulks later in the game when marines can kill them easier because of higher firepower.
- fades are, as it is now, a bit to powerful, needing 3 people to take down 1 enemy is a bit much to defend against in the middle of nowhere imo.
- marines are/feel to slow to actually make fast aggressive pushes, by the time they make it half way across the map aliens can already spawn 2x (exaggerate maybe but you get the point)
- the movement/shooting system doesn't make it much easier for marines (like the huge delays between repairing/running and shooting)
Also about the marines being slow compared to the aliens, your also able to feel this with building and such, esp at the start marines will need to do the building while aliens can run out to secure terrain/kill marines.
Aliens generally also lose less buildings, or need less defenses because they can move faster across the map, thus being able to assault/defend easier them selfs, thus having more resources later in the game.
So often im seeing 2-3 hives going up at once if we get pushed back a bit, so marines either have to split up with the risk of being unable to survive an attack, or go as a group but with the slow speed by that time at least 1 hive should have already finished building.
just my 2cents on this topic.
All of this is based on pub games ofc, but regardless of what pro teams can do, if average vs average players cant do it its just not right.
People of equal skill vs people of equal skill should have the same chances, whether they are pro or noob.
(sorry for the wall of text, half of it prob doesnt make snese but its my opinion non the less and I'm tired as hell so didn't reread)
I do agree with you however that there are different ways of dealing with things, but usually the best way is the way where the least resources are required to burn to protect something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the 2.0 era the elc tfack was used a fair amount because you could pack all the marine structure together in a little ball and it would cover everything. But when the minimum distance between structures was introduced it was no longer viable.
And even if you say "just have 2 shotgunners and a flamer and the fade is dead" that still takes 3 people to take down a single enemy, in a 6v6 thats 2 fades to keep an entire team busy, while the aliens still have 4 players free to do whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much, which is why the 'marines just need to work together' reason is totally bogus. The only way you can balance a game this way is to force uneven teams (i.e. make it so aliens only have half as many players as the marines).
However, I think this is really just a symptom of the marine survivability issue. Quite simply, marines don't last long enough to be able to reliably do enough damage to the alien attackers before they die or the aliens retreat. Personally, although I dislike the mechanism, its part of the reason why I think slow on damage appeared to make the game more balanced (i.e. it decreased alien survivability more than marine surivability).
I just fended off a total of 10 skulks, 3 fades, and 2 lerks in reactor core by myself with an armory, a sentry, and a shotgun. I took 2 fades at once, and they weren't half bad fades.
If marines don't go rambo, they can defend forward areas better than any alien strategy. It's not turtling if you bunnyhop bases.
If you see a fade, stand in front of a sentry and do some Michael Jackson impersonations.
Yea, i remember dux. I was playing NS since it was released, i've went through all the different types of playing styles over the years while playing competitively. But even now thinking back to it, in competitive play it was barely used, pub play on the other hand, I saw it used more often.
Er, yes they were, if you can kill them yourself, they're bad fades.
^win
Actually sounds like a decent tactic, too.
Based on those games, I see three problems:
1) skulks are too powerful for cost
2) tech tree mismatch
3) marine gameplay is less forgiving
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Problem 1: skulks are too powerful (for cost)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Given equal skill and numbers, skulks at least match marines. In our games, skulks never ran alone, they always ran in packs of 2 or three, eliminating the theoretical marine squad advantage. Whenever marines pushed into an important area, skulks massed and and met in equal numbers. In general, skulks traded kills with marines pretty evenly. Due to resource starvation, shotguns weren't sustainable.
If skulks trade kills with marines anywhere near equal, and they do, then that is an alien advantage due to problem #2.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Problem 2: There is simply a tech tree mismatch</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Here is the alien typical expenditures through early game:
<ul><li> 1 whip</li><li> 1 harvester</li><li> 1 upgrade: melee 1 </li><li> 1 crag (optional)</li></ul>
This is all starting cash, the rest is the downpayment on hives and whatever optional upgrades they want. Skulks are potent all game, and work fine up until Fades appear. You don't need Lerks at all, and only a dash of Gorge. So aliens are swimming in money from the word go.
Here is the marine typical expenditures through early game:
<ul><li> 2 IPs</li><li> 1 armory </li><li> shotgun upgrade </li><li> 1 powerpack (optional, but recommended)</li><li> AND then choose 1 or more tech paths:
<ul><li>Arms lab + armor 1 </li><li>Obs + phase tech + PGs </li><li>Adv. armory + GL/FT </li><li>Robotics + MAC/ARC + sentries.</li></ul></li></ul>
Marines, on the other hand, have a larger starting cost AND 4 possible tech paths, each with different bonuses:
<ul><li>Arms lab path - to get armor 1 and avoid 2-bite deaths </li><li>Obs path - to get PG, allowing defense without using sentries </li><li>Adv. armory path - to get FT/GL to boost offense (and a little defense)</li><li>Robotics path - for ARCS on offense, and sentries on defense</li></ul>
It's my opinion that Arms Lab is a required path, marines just can't hold up against 2-bite skulks. And in practice, it seems that at least one additional path is needed to make any push at all. Thus, realistically, marines need at least 2 of the 4 tech paths to have any chance at map control. That's a HUGE investment disparity just to compete with 1-upgrade-Skulks. It puts marine behind on time and money. And of course marines spend time out of the fight when building this stuff, slowing them down even more.
It's this tech lag that causes that sinking feeling that marines get. You know the one. Always feeling behind the power curve, always on the defensive, always reacting instead of attacking. Desperately fighting to carve out and hold even a single expansion. At best, you keep knocking down the 2nd hive, and you only dream of having map control in the early game.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Problem 3: the marine side is less forgiving in the early game</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
If aliens make a mistake, they lose some Skulks and respawn. But marines can lose precious weapons, ARCs, and buildings. A single skulk can win the game by destroying one or two fragile IPs in seconds. There's no marine equivalent to that: hives are the only point of failure for aliens, and they are much harder to kill. Entire bases can be undone by losing a single power node. In effect, marines have several critical vulnerabilities, aliens have none. In the real world, mistakes will happen on occasion, and that favors aliens.
One marines start getting better tech, this improves. A slow response CAN cost aliens a hive. Losing Fades DOES cost aliens real money. But it's too little, too late, as aliens already have dominance.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>The result: aliens dominate the early game</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
All of the problems above give massive advantage to aliens in the early game. An alien team of equal skill can stay on offense all game for zero cost, contesting every res node and starving the marine economy. By the time marines have researched the tech to HOLD two rooms, aliens can have 2 or 3 hives and all the Fades they want. It just snowballs from there.
If marines can make it to midgame with decent map control, they have a legitimate shot at winning. But that's a rare occurrence.