Here's a summery of why I think it's unbalanced towards aliens currently:
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->1. Aliens tech is cheaper. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
The two best upgrades that the aliens can get are Melee 1 and Frenzy. They can get both right at the start of the game for a total of 35 res. After that the best upgrade for aliens is hive 2 tech. There really isn't much advantage to getting melee 2 (once marines have armour 1 skulks will kill in 3 hits regardless) or armour upgrades for skulks.
The equivalent for marines is armour 1 and shotguns. Just to get them it costs a total of 75 res, and that's assuming you only build 1 IP. That's over double the amount of res just to get to the same level of tech.
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->2. Aliens have an easier time controlling / holding extractors.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
It's much easier for aliens to defend and hold their extractors because of how long it takes for the marines to cross the map. As soon as the marines leave their RTs undefended there is often a skulk or two chomping on them - if they do get killed they respawn instantly and can get back to that area of the map in a very short amount of time to keep the pressure on.
If a marine is attacking crevice and he gets the extractor down to 50%. It takes him such a long time to spawn and get back to that area of the map that the aliens can relax. They can easily hold the marines back and even if they do lose an extractor the commander can rebuild it relatively quickly with a drifter while the skulks are free to push up.
The marines need to constantly defend. If they push up too much, a skulk can easily get in behind them and it takes them a while to run back. Whereas skulks can easily move around the map and if they are needed to defend an RT they can quickly get there.
Couple this ease of controlling the res towers with a cheaper economy and it gives the aliens a big advantage. IMO, because of the aliens mobility they should be required to hold more of the map than the marines in order to keep up with the same level of tech. Currently aliens rarely need to worry about res, it shouldn't be this way.
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->3. Alien 2nd Hive Tech is overpowered. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> </b> Once a few fades start moving around the map it is almost impossible for the marines to move out of their base. If they do push out all the fades need to do is pick off one at a time and run back to a hive and heal. If they are working together with skulks and gorges it's even easier to kill off any marine advances. This then causes the stalemate situations where all the marines can do is turtle up in their base. I don't think as soon as fades come out that the marines should be relegated to turtling.
Fades should be a step up from skulks, but they shouldn't be super units that completely dominate, controlling the map with little effort.
Considering the alien economy advantage, 50 res for hives really isn't that much, especially for the game winning advantage it brings them.
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> Possible solutions:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Increase the cost of alien tech. Melee 1 and frenzy should cost a significant amount more. Frenzy should also cost more for individual players (right now it's practically free).
Increase the cost of a 2nd hive.
Perhaps move fades to a 3rd hive for now until they are balanced enough.
Just remember everyone there is many more features to be added down the road...
I personally think, it takes wayyyy to long for a single marine to build a power node when all an alien has to do is drop a postule to allow building of a resource tower or other class specific structures.
My biggest complaint with the marines is that in order to get Armor 1, it takes a larger amount of time and resources than the Kharaa to obtain Melee 1. As an Alien Commander, I can have Melee 1 before I even have my second Harvester which is usually within the first 2-3 minutes of the round This is just not possible for the Marines. This creates an unfair advantage very early in the game for the Aliens in close combat.
I think the cost of adding Frenzy for instance is to "cheap" for the Kharaa. I think upgrades such as Bile Bomb, Frenzy, etc., should cost anywhere between 20-30 RES. The same goes for upgrades such as Armor and Melee. Then, once a Kharaa can obtain Frenzy, it should cost at least 10 Res. to add it to your current class.
I think this will level out the current mechanics, but it will need to be altered once future features for the Kharaa is added.
<b>Example:</b> <ul><li>As a Alien, I can drop 3 postule's to the second Harvester location. Send 1 Drifter to build a Whip at Alien Start. Send 1 Drifter and start building a Harvester. By the time my Drifter travels to the second Res. location and begins building the 2nd Harvester, my whip is done. Immediately I upgrade to Melee 1. I am now sitting around 30-35 res and hording for the 2nd hive drop with my last remaining Drifter at Alien Start. This whole time my skulks are covering the map without having to participate in any early building like the Marines are forced to do. By the time the second Hive is ready to be dropped, I have enough energy to spread my postule's into the seoond hive and create a link for the 3rd Harvester once the 2nd hive has been dropped.</li><li>As a Marine commander, in order to drop an IP, Armory, Arms Lab, Upgrade Armor 1 and drop a second RT is not possible. The whole time my Marines are forced to build and forced to turtle from location to location.</li></ul>
<b>My suggestions:</b> <ul><li>Have the Marines start with 1 MAC. This will create a situation where a MAC can build the structures at main and at the resource tower locations while the Marines protect or spread out the map to hold key locations.</li><li>Have the build time for a single Marine re-building a Power Node be shorter. When a Marine is building solo, he is forced to (usually) face the Power Node location and spend > 1min building. That's almost as fair as a Gorge walking through the middle of Crossroads. Except the Gorge can choose not to walk through Crossroads, the Marine can't choose (usually) how he is facing and speed when building the Power Nodes (alone).</li><li>Have the cost for Kharaa upgrades more expensive. As of right now, it's very cheap to obtain upgrades. Once upgrades are obtained, it almost spells end game for the Marines unless they work in sync and the Comm has a > Intermediate skill level (which is 90% of the time not the case).</li></ul>
Since equal melee and armor is the same anyway, why even bother with the upgrades, why not just flat remove the armor and melee upgrades and just start everyone at armor/melee three. Honestly, buying upgrades to end up in the same spot in the end with basically no difference strikes me as really freaking odd, like running on a treadmill hoping to get that marshmallow on a stick hanging out of reach.
I think we need not just more expensive upgrades, but more interesting upgrades (I can't think of anything more dull than armor/melee upgrades.) Especially upgrades, in the end, a fundamental part of RTS gaming is a build, a design of some sort you think can lead your team to victory, and these typically run on a variety of different concepts (tank rushes, infantry waves, super weapon smack down, air power, economic warfare, etc.) Its pretty much never "I have tank upgrade 2, you only have defense upgrade 1, I win!"
<!--quoteo(post=1865744:date=Aug 2 2011, 11:44 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Aug 2 2011, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since equal melee and armor is the same anyway, why even bother with the upgrades, why not just flat remove the armor and melee upgrades and just start everyone at armor/melee three. Honestly, buying upgrades to end up in the same spot in the end with basically no difference strikes me as really freaking odd, like running on a treadmill hoping to get that marshmallow on a stick hanging out of reach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not going to happen. Upgrading Armor and Melee is a key system within Natural Selection and Starcraft (1&2) which this game is "theoretically" based on.
<!--quoteo(post=1865746:date=Aug 2 2011, 05:55 AM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 2 2011, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not going to happen. Upgrading Armor and Melee is a key system within Natural Selection and Starcraft (1&2) which this game is "theoretically" based on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My problem is that it's so damned vital its not a choice, its a mandatory selection. If its mandatory then why bother. You can get through a game of SC without touching your forge or evolution chamber, its a choice in that game where you decide where to allocate scarce resources. In NS2 its so huge that it's not a choice, its a "do this or lose." 2 Bite skulks are absolute <b>murder.</b>
Well aliens used to have a more interesting upgrade system, compare focus and melee upgrades for example. I'm not fan of the actual upgrades, frenzy and swarm makes me feel like playing warcraft or such where you stack up random buffs.
<!--quoteo(post=1865755:date=Aug 2 2011, 12:37 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 2 2011, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well aliens used to have a more interesting upgrade system, compare focus and melee upgrades for example. I'm not fan of the actual upgrades, frenzy and swarm makes me feel like playing warcraft or such where you stack up random buffs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap + Focus Skulk FTW!
<!--quoteo(post=1865781:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:05 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 2 2011, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could make aliens damage and armor upgrades require an additional hive.
Starting hive allows you to get damage/armor 1 Second hive allows damage/armor 2 Third hive allows damage/armor 3
That way it isn't instant game over when aliens unlock fades.
And they keep the damage/armor upgrades till the round is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This will not work in the long run. Making an Alien team get confined in upgrades due to not having a 3rd Hive is unfair. The Marines can acquire all their upgrades without having a single Hive/CC location. I suggest everything being able to be unlocked upon second Hive (other than the last structure in the series for Kharaa. (Similar to NS1 with the 3rd Structure [usually Sensory Chamber]).
This is a topic interesting enough that I wanted to join the forum (hi everyone) to comment.
It is important to understand that the game is still heavily imbalanced at this point, and that there will be shifts in which team is better as abilities come on. It is equally important to realize the quality of players makes a huge difference in terms of how the games play out. I have played (and streamed on twitch) the game as I have been learning it and come to a few conclusions on issues I am seeing that result in unsatisfying games for either party.
Firstly, to address the actual post directly, remember that marines have the fastest movement available out of any enemy type. It involves a bit of forethought on the part of the commander and marines to place, but phase gates are without question the most powerful tool for the Marines. It allows you to travel from your base to a remote location instantly to do forward offense, and pull back quickly for defense. Your commander should be informing you when attacks occur.
Problem 2 is partially an issue with the state of the game. The large sink of Onos do not exist yet. It is also an issue of the Marine mindset. It is important to continue to use 2-3 man fireteam to move into different areas and destroy resource collectors (especially the Reactor, Flight Control, Crossroads and Crevace collectors). A dedicated fireteam should be dispatched to continually harass at different points to locate the least defended location and pull aliens away from base defense / attacking. Marines should constantly have a scout team moving around to harass and discover weakly defended points. The same goes for the aliens, of course.
Cysts: Cysts have to be contiguously connected to a hive or all dependent nodes being to die simultaneously. This is one of the greatest threats Marines can offer in the early game, cutting off Cyst connections. I notice that most players do not bother with this early on. It's a free kill for every connected node at the start and requires the alien commander to constantly expend Team Resource. Use it!
Now on to general issues (we will ignore the wider problems with balance):
Marines:
#1: Individual Power: It is important to make use of Marine relative power and self-sufficiency in the early game. Marines are deadly at the start against Skulks, especially traveling in groups of 2-3. Make use of that power to take over one of the early nodes (either FC or Vent). Then quickly setup a forward position on the next command point on -one- side. (Vent->Surface Access, Flight Control -> Heli). Too often Marines get greedy and instead of progressing along one side, they try to take both sides and move into both areas, only to be pushed back as the alien team works backwards to cut off the early nodes. Having Heli does little good if you do not have the resources for a Phase Gate (lost Flight Control) and cannot move marines between the two locations.
#2: Fireteam Harassment: Use fireteams to harass at different weak points. Marines do not need every team member to stack up in the Vent->Surface Access corridor and bombard the defenses. Keep a roving 2+ fireteam tasked with harassing the Alien supply lines in the early/mid-game. Move between the various locations (Crevice, Crossroads, Reactor) and draw defenders away from where the Marine primary push is. If resources are available, and a defensible position can be found, build a power node, Phase gate and forward Armory. The fireteam should constantly look for safe areas to setup a new front for their team.
#3: Utilize Phase Gates: Make sure to build a phase gate for any established position. In the mid/late game, individual Marines are vastly under powered, to balance that, be mobile across the entire map. Multiple Marines (especially with flamethrowers) beat Aliens, always. Aliens cannot attack while on fire. Any time an area is established, a Phase Gate should be there to facilitate quick movement across the map. The Marine Commander should be directing defense and offense and shifting the Phase Gate accesses to assist.
#4: Turrets are Not Defense: Turrets do not protect a base. Turrets allow the Marines time to respond to an attack. That is all they do, delay. Make sure Turrets cover the entrances and give cover over the existing base so that the Marine Commander knows where Aliens are attacking. This follows with:
#5: Listen to the Marine Commander: The Commander drives planning and defense for the Marine team. Marine Commanders should call out attacks and direct Marines to defend. Marine team members need to follow direction and help with defense and offense. It is critical to work together, Commander and Marine team, to establish positions, defend, and attack.
Aliens:
#1: The Power of Movement: Skulks move incredibly fast and traverse any world geometry. Utilize this mobility in the early game to strike down every undefended Power Node, hunt down individual marines, and harass in the mid/late game. Nothing is more frustrating for the Marine team than losing the Flight Control node while making a push from Heli. Use ceilings and tag (Parasite) Marines and Marine Equipment so that fellow Aliens are aware of player and object locations. In the Mid and Late game, probe for weaknesses in Marine defenses. Focus especially upon Phase Gates and denying access to important troop routes. A single skilled Skulk can close off an entire area until the Marines bring a friend.
#2: Gorges, a Hive's Best Friend: Every new Hive should be defended by a Gorge. Gorges provide the only static defenses for Aliens and active healing for Alien units. Whenever a Hive is being established, there should always be a Gorge there to defend and heal fellow Defenders. Hydras work like Turrets to aid the Alien Commander in delaying attacks to allow the Aliens to defend. In addition, Hydras establish territory control. This follows with:
#3: Gorges, a Marine's Worst Nightmare: (As the game stands) Once bilebomb is researched, the Alien end-game is done, and it is time to attack. Skulks, Fades and Lerks do not win games against intelligent Marines, Gorges do. Gorges provide the power house that clears Marine turrets and buildings and forward position taking (with Hydras).
#4: Fades, Everybody Loves Escort Missions: Fades are great at Marine killing, but terrible for everything else. Most end games consist of Fades flicking around attacking vainly at deadly Marines. This is because Fades <i>do not win matches</i>. Gorges do. Fades exist to escort Gorges and distract and weaken Marine defenders. Nothing is more distracting than a Fade flicking in the middle of a base. This allows the real work to be done; bilebombing Marine buildings.
#5: Lerks, What are They Good For? (Absolutely Nothing!): Lerks provide AoE (Area of Effect) area denial. When Marines with Flamethrowers and Grenade launchers are chewing up Alien Defenses, Gorges and Fades, it is up to the Lerks to save the day. Not only can Lerks take out the most powerful Marines with long distance snipes (Yes, that's what the right mouse button is for), but they provide the best method of scattering groups of Marines: Spores. Use Spores to split up larger groups of Marines and chase them back to heal. Teach the Marines to fear the sound of a Spore attack.
Marines are not losing because the game is imbalanced (though it is). Marines lose because they <i>do not know how to play</i>. Hopefully this short guild will help your team to try better tactics. Remember: Deny movement, attack supply routes, push with the proper forces, and listen to your Commanders!
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1865782:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:19 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 2 2011, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This will not work in the long run. Making an Alien team get confined in upgrades due to not having a 3rd Hive is unfair. The Marines can acquire all their upgrades without having a single Hive/CC location. I suggest everything being able to be unlocked upon second Hive (other than the last structure in the series for Kharaa. (Similar to NS1 with the 3rd Structure [usually Sensory Chamber]).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying the 3rd hive is primarily for damage/armor 3, the last upgrade structure, and most likely Onos and some other endgame alien ability unlocks.
Marines naturally fortify their current base, as the aliens naturally try to gain more territory.
Ns1 had armor and damage tied to the hives and that worked pretty well.
• For starters, the commander has a greater effect on the outcome of the game.
• The time it takes from the point a Marines dies, until he spawns and then returns to the same point he was before takes longer.
• Building takes longer.
• The relationship between players is still lacking, as people only move in groups when things get desperate.
* Here is a bit of psychology - People are much more likely to go out of their way to avoid a loss, than to make a gain. Rewarding squads that stick together won't work as well as say L4D2's 'you must stick together or you'll lose players'. A copy is not workable, but some sort of 'loss' dynamic might well be.
• Sentries are still not working. I think for map control to work, Marines have to be able to shut down 'routes' through the map. 5 Powerful sentries would be more than enough to shut off key locations, whilst not dominating the whole map. Reloading is a ball ache. However, map control is also required - so it is a catch 22.
• UI is generally poor - Marines are the 'tech' guys, communication needs to be emphasised more. When the commander is not using the mic, it would be good to see what his mouse is doing on the Mini map, where he/she is on the mini map.
• Squads do not work still. If you break from a squad there should be a count down of 10 seconds before you leave the squad. For every second you are in the squad, you gain an extra second from the point you leave. So if you are in it for 5 seconds and leave, that would be a 15 second count down.
• Why is everything blue UWE... we get it, blue for Marines. Players STILL don't see that structures need to be built. What has happened to the white circle on the ground indicating a structure needs to be built/what it's health is? Blue arrows everywhere are not good - and they should disappear and become blue circle/icon indicators on the ground when in view. I'm trying to shoot aliens and there are blue floaty things in the way. Pink goes really well with blue (that is a joke btw)... but maybe some more red, or dark dusty purples, orange... Something in that area of the spectrum.
• Stalemates for both teams are an issue come end game, and you need to have the whole map locked down as Marines before you really have a chance of making sure there are no more hives. There is no real reward to boost a teams strength based on map control.
Just a few pointers - but UI could be a lot smarter.
<!--quoteo(post=1865783:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:29 PM:name=Loiosh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loiosh @ Aug 2 2011, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#5: Lerks, What are They Good For? (Absolutely Nothing!): Lerks provide AoE (Area of Effect) area denial. When Marines with Flamethrowers and Grenade launchers are chewing up Alien Defenses, Gorges and Fades, it is up to the Lerks to save the day. Not only can Lerks take out the most powerful Marines with long distance snipes (Yes, that's what the right mouse button is for), but they provide the best method of scattering groups of Marines: Spores. Use Spores to split up larger groups of Marines and chase them back to heal. Teach the Marines to fear the sound of a Spore attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take it you haven't watched ana . Tempest Lerk? He is more effective then the best fade out there... It's not even RIGHT lol
<!--quoteo(post=1865783:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:29 PM:name=Loiosh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loiosh @ Aug 2 2011, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines are not losing because the game is imbalanced (though it is). Marines lose because they <i>do not know how to play</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make any sense. If the game is imbalanced then it must be causing losses because of the imbalance. I don't think it's just every marine player doesn't know how to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1865789:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:05 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 2 2011, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it you haven't watched ana . Tempest Lerk? He is more effective then the best fade out there... It's not even RIGHT lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should know, I play on the server with him, and you :) - The advice about Lerks comes directly from their clan.
Though I always play Aliens, since they're imbalanced. (Not really, I just love the humble skulk).
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Lerks are great in the early and mid game, but become pretty useless in the endgame. This is due to the short range of spores, the fact that spores do almost no damage in 183, and it takes 4 snipes to kill a armor 3 marine. In the early game, they rock though, when you can still get 2-shot kills and don't die to half a clip of LMG.
Have 999 team res? Don't turret spam. MAC spam! Imagine: constructing turrets in half a second. Making bile bombs obsolete. Swarming fades and killing them with 20 simultaneous weak attacks in 1 second.
Aliens don't have an ability to attack several marine units at once, except for the lerk spore, which doesn't affect MACs. This strategy, unlike turret farms, has no weakness.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Heh MACs are quite annoying when there are a lot of them and they have the speed upgrade. I've seen a few MAC kills, especially on Lerks, as the MAC hovers right above the lerk where it can't fly upwards.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1865824:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:02 PM:name=kaffaljidhma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaffaljidhma @ Aug 2 2011, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have 999 team res? Don't turret spam. MAC spam! Imagine: constructing turrets in half a second. Making bile bombs obsolete. Swarming fades and killing them with 20 simultaneous weak attacks in 1 second.
Aliens don't have an ability to attack several marine units at once, except for the lerk spore, which doesn't affect MACs. This strategy, unlike turret farms, has no weakness.
There, now let's see what happens to win ratios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The weakness is that the server tickrate tanks and then crashes. Any more than about 10 AI (MACs, Drifters, ARCs) moving at one time wrecks havok on the server.
<!--quoteo(post=1865828:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:15 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 2 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh MACs are quite annoying when there are a lot of them and they have the speed upgrade. I've seen a few MAC kills, especially on Lerks, as the MAC hovers right above the lerk where it can't fly upwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do this all the time and its awesome (like getting a kill with the axe). The super speedy MACs make it much more effective.
I just built 40 drifters in game and the only thing it slowed down was me. I suspect that I can make an invincible sentry as long as I don't have to move the macs around much.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
Marines tend to lose because ... the aliens win? :P
In small games (with less than 8 players) Marine spawn is very vunlerable to early Skulks taking out the IP. In larger game, it is usually due to the lack of team play. IMO, Marines have all the necessary weapons and territory control to crush any alien resistance, if the Marine team defends their spawn and 2-3 addition Resource Nodes til they can get all their upgrades.
There really needs to be a cap on the population of AI controlled units. They're a scourge on the game!
MACs are less affordable than the early NS days (when they used to be built using energy from the CS), but having more than 20 MACs on the map at the same time is still not good for the game's well being (performance and balance wise). The same could possibly be said about ARCs and Hydras (Whips aren't too problematic ATM, in my experience).
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
whats about making the robotics factory only supplying a certain amount of units (like 5 overall)? then you still have the choice to "spam" if you really want to, but it will become much more expensive. To make this system not fail: All units built from a factory are "controlled" by it. so if the factory dies, the units will power down and not be able to perform any actions. Although there still could be a hardcap adjusted by server performance
Yeah it's a terrible terrible placeholder model. I'd like to see it's profile cut down a fair bit, perhaps just make it a low to the ground pad similar to the IP but rectangular and about the size of an ARC at some point, the brick is just terribly against the general marine structure design methods. (compact and/or collapsible)
I would consider increasing the price of alien upgrades, that should delay them in their development.
I still win games as marines, but I admit only when I'm commanding, I have over a year experience in that now, so that gives me an egde. Compared to marine commander alien commander is much easier, even if it's your first time, you still got a good chance to win ;-) The alien commander really needs some big changes to make him more challenging, possibily give the commander to drop healing waves or some kind of protection wave to increase the interaction with the players..
Dependent on how much of a difference FPS smoothing helps, I think the biggest change marines need is a better rifle. I don't really feel threatened as a skulk against a rifle wielding marine, which doesn't seem right. Later in the game is stays similarly non-threatening. I really think it needs a little more damage. As a Fade it's even less than threatening, I can basically blink in and walk into rifle fire from a marine I'm killing without having to be evasive at all.
Comments
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->1. Aliens tech is cheaper. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
The two best upgrades that the aliens can get are Melee 1 and Frenzy. They can get both right at the start of the game for a total of 35 res. After that the best upgrade for aliens is hive 2 tech. There really isn't much advantage to getting melee 2 (once marines have armour 1 skulks will kill in 3 hits regardless) or armour upgrades for skulks.
The equivalent for marines is armour 1 and shotguns. Just to get them it costs a total of 75 res, and that's assuming you only build 1 IP. That's over double the amount of res just to get to the same level of tech.
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->2. Aliens have an easier time controlling / holding extractors.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
It's much easier for aliens to defend and hold their extractors because of how long it takes for the marines to cross the map. As soon as the marines leave their RTs undefended there is often a skulk or two chomping on them - if they do get killed they respawn instantly and can get back to that area of the map in a very short amount of time to keep the pressure on.
If a marine is attacking crevice and he gets the extractor down to 50%. It takes him such a long time to spawn and get back to that area of the map that the aliens can relax. They can easily hold the marines back and even if they do lose an extractor the commander can rebuild it relatively quickly with a drifter while the skulks are free to push up.
The marines need to constantly defend. If they push up too much, a skulk can easily get in behind them and it takes them a while to run back. Whereas skulks can easily move around the map and if they are needed to defend an RT they can quickly get there.
Couple this ease of controlling the res towers with a cheaper economy and it gives the aliens a big advantage. IMO, because of the aliens mobility they should be required to hold more of the map than the marines in order to keep up with the same level of tech. Currently aliens rarely need to worry about res, it shouldn't be this way.
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->3. Alien 2nd Hive Tech is overpowered.
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Once a few fades start moving around the map it is almost impossible for the marines to move out of their base. If they do push out all the fades need to do is pick off one at a time and run back to a hive and heal. If they are working together with skulks and gorges it's even easier to kill off any marine advances. This then causes the stalemate situations where all the marines can do is turtle up in their base. I don't think as soon as fades come out that the marines should be relegated to turtling.
Fades should be a step up from skulks, but they shouldn't be super units that completely dominate, controlling the map with little effort.
Considering the alien economy advantage, 50 res for hives really isn't that much, especially for the game winning advantage it brings them.
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Increase the cost of alien tech. Melee 1 and frenzy should cost a significant amount more. Frenzy should also cost more for individual players (right now it's practically free).
Increase the cost of a 2nd hive.
Perhaps move fades to a 3rd hive for now until they are balanced enough.
I personally think, it takes wayyyy to long for a single marine to build a power node when all an alien has to do is drop a postule to allow building of a resource tower or other class specific structures.
My biggest complaint with the marines is that in order to get Armor 1, it takes a larger amount of time and resources than the Kharaa to obtain Melee 1. As an Alien Commander, I can have Melee 1 before I even have my second Harvester which is usually within the first 2-3 minutes of the round This is just not possible for the Marines. This creates an unfair advantage very early in the game for the Aliens in close combat.
I think the cost of adding Frenzy for instance is to "cheap" for the Kharaa. I think upgrades such as Bile Bomb, Frenzy, etc., should cost anywhere between 20-30 RES. The same goes for upgrades such as Armor and Melee. Then, once a Kharaa can obtain Frenzy, it should cost at least 10 Res. to add it to your current class.
I think this will level out the current mechanics, but it will need to be altered once future features for the Kharaa is added.
<b>Example:</b>
<ul><li>As a Alien, I can drop 3 postule's to the second Harvester location. Send 1 Drifter to build a Whip at Alien Start. Send 1 Drifter and start building a Harvester. By the time my Drifter travels to the second Res. location and begins building the 2nd Harvester, my whip is done. Immediately I upgrade to Melee 1. I am now sitting around 30-35 res and hording for the 2nd hive drop with my last remaining Drifter at Alien Start. This whole time my skulks are covering the map without having to participate in any early building like the Marines are forced to do. By the time the second Hive is ready to be dropped, I have enough energy to spread my postule's into the seoond hive and create a link for the 3rd Harvester once the 2nd hive has been dropped.</li><li>As a Marine commander, in order to drop an IP, Armory, Arms Lab, Upgrade Armor 1 and drop a second RT is not possible. The whole time my Marines are forced to build and forced to turtle from location to location.</li></ul>
<b>My suggestions:</b>
<ul><li>Have the Marines start with 1 MAC. This will create a situation where a MAC can build the structures at main and at the resource tower locations while the Marines protect or spread out the map to hold key locations.</li><li>Have the build time for a single Marine re-building a Power Node be shorter. When a Marine is building solo, he is forced to (usually) face the Power Node location and spend > 1min building. That's almost as fair as a Gorge walking through the middle of Crossroads. Except the Gorge can choose not to walk through Crossroads, the Marine can't choose (usually) how he is facing and speed when building the Power Nodes (alone).</li><li>Have the cost for Kharaa upgrades more expensive. As of right now, it's very cheap to obtain upgrades. Once upgrades are obtained, it almost spells end game for the Marines unless they work in sync and the Comm has a > Intermediate skill level (which is 90% of the time not the case).</li></ul>
I think we need not just more expensive upgrades, but more interesting upgrades (I can't think of anything more dull than armor/melee upgrades.) Especially upgrades, in the end, a fundamental part of RTS gaming is a build, a design of some sort you think can lead your team to victory, and these typically run on a variety of different concepts (tank rushes, infantry waves, super weapon smack down, air power, economic warfare, etc.) Its pretty much never "I have tank upgrade 2, you only have defense upgrade 1, I win!"
Not going to happen. Upgrading Armor and Melee is a key system within Natural Selection and Starcraft (1&2) which this game is "theoretically" based on.
My problem is that it's so damned vital its not a choice, its a mandatory selection. If its mandatory then why bother. You can get through a game of SC without touching your forge or evolution chamber, its a choice in that game where you decide where to allocate scarce resources. In NS2 its so huge that it's not a choice, its a "do this or lose." 2 Bite skulks are absolute <b>murder.</b>
Leap + Focus Skulk FTW!
Starting hive allows you to get damage/armor 1
Second hive allows damage/armor 2
Third hive allows damage/armor 3
That way it isn't instant game over when aliens unlock fades.
And they keep the damage/armor upgrades till the round is over.
Starting hive allows you to get damage/armor 1
Second hive allows damage/armor 2
Third hive allows damage/armor 3
That way it isn't instant game over when aliens unlock fades.
And they keep the damage/armor upgrades till the round is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will not work in the long run. Making an Alien team get confined in upgrades due to not having a 3rd Hive is unfair. The Marines can acquire all their upgrades without having a single Hive/CC location. I suggest everything being able to be unlocked upon second Hive (other than the last structure in the series for Kharaa. (Similar to NS1 with the 3rd Structure [usually Sensory Chamber]).
It is important to understand that the game is still heavily imbalanced at this point, and that there will be shifts in which team is better as abilities come on. It is equally important to realize the quality of players makes a huge difference in terms of how the games play out. I have played (and streamed on twitch) the game as I have been learning it and come to a few conclusions on issues I am seeing that result in unsatisfying games for either party.
Firstly, to address the actual post directly, remember that marines have the fastest movement available out of any enemy type. It involves a bit of forethought on the part of the commander and marines to place, but phase gates are without question the most powerful tool for the Marines. It allows you to travel from your base to a remote location instantly to do forward offense, and pull back quickly for defense. Your commander should be informing you when attacks occur.
Problem 2 is partially an issue with the state of the game. The large sink of Onos do not exist yet. It is also an issue of the Marine mindset. It is important to continue to use 2-3 man fireteam to move into different areas and destroy resource collectors (especially the Reactor, Flight Control, Crossroads and Crevace collectors). A dedicated fireteam should be dispatched to continually harass at different points to locate the least defended location and pull aliens away from base defense / attacking. Marines should constantly have a scout team moving around to harass and discover weakly defended points. The same goes for the aliens, of course.
Cysts: Cysts have to be contiguously connected to a hive or all dependent nodes being to die simultaneously. This is one of the greatest threats Marines can offer in the early game, cutting off Cyst connections. I notice that most players do not bother with this early on. It's a free kill for every connected node at the start and requires the alien commander to constantly expend Team Resource. Use it!
Now on to general issues (we will ignore the wider problems with balance):
Marines:
#1: Individual Power: It is important to make use of Marine relative power and self-sufficiency in the early game. Marines are deadly at the start against Skulks, especially traveling in groups of 2-3. Make use of that power to take over one of the early nodes (either FC or Vent). Then quickly setup a forward position on the next command point on -one- side. (Vent->Surface Access, Flight Control -> Heli). Too often Marines get greedy and instead of progressing along one side, they try to take both sides and move into both areas, only to be pushed back as the alien team works backwards to cut off the early nodes. Having Heli does little good if you do not have the resources for a Phase Gate (lost Flight Control) and cannot move marines between the two locations.
#2: Fireteam Harassment: Use fireteams to harass at different weak points. Marines do not need every team member to stack up in the Vent->Surface Access corridor and bombard the defenses. Keep a roving 2+ fireteam tasked with harassing the Alien supply lines in the early/mid-game. Move between the various locations (Crevice, Crossroads, Reactor) and draw defenders away from where the Marine primary push is. If resources are available, and a defensible position can be found, build a power node, Phase gate and forward Armory. The fireteam should constantly look for safe areas to setup a new front for their team.
#3: Utilize Phase Gates: Make sure to build a phase gate for any established position. In the mid/late game, individual Marines are vastly under powered, to balance that, be mobile across the entire map. Multiple Marines (especially with flamethrowers) beat Aliens, always. Aliens cannot attack while on fire. Any time an area is established, a Phase Gate should be there to facilitate quick movement across the map. The Marine Commander should be directing defense and offense and shifting the Phase Gate accesses to assist.
#4: Turrets are Not Defense: Turrets do not protect a base. Turrets allow the Marines time to respond to an attack. That is all they do, delay. Make sure Turrets cover the entrances and give cover over the existing base so that the Marine Commander knows where Aliens are attacking. This follows with:
#5: Listen to the Marine Commander: The Commander drives planning and defense for the Marine team. Marine Commanders should call out attacks and direct Marines to defend. Marine team members need to follow direction and help with defense and offense. It is critical to work together, Commander and Marine team, to establish positions, defend, and attack.
Aliens:
#1: The Power of Movement: Skulks move incredibly fast and traverse any world geometry. Utilize this mobility in the early game to strike down every undefended Power Node, hunt down individual marines, and harass in the mid/late game. Nothing is more frustrating for the Marine team than losing the Flight Control node while making a push from Heli. Use ceilings and tag (Parasite) Marines and Marine Equipment so that fellow Aliens are aware of player and object locations. In the Mid and Late game, probe for weaknesses in Marine defenses. Focus especially upon Phase Gates and denying access to important troop routes. A single skilled Skulk can close off an entire area until the Marines bring a friend.
#2: Gorges, a Hive's Best Friend: Every new Hive should be defended by a Gorge. Gorges provide the only static defenses for Aliens and active healing for Alien units. Whenever a Hive is being established, there should always be a Gorge there to defend and heal fellow Defenders. Hydras work like Turrets to aid the Alien Commander in delaying attacks to allow the Aliens to defend. In addition, Hydras establish territory control. This follows with:
#3: Gorges, a Marine's Worst Nightmare: (As the game stands) Once bilebomb is researched, the Alien end-game is done, and it is time to attack. Skulks, Fades and Lerks do not win games against intelligent Marines, Gorges do. Gorges provide the power house that clears Marine turrets and buildings and forward position taking (with Hydras).
#4: Fades, Everybody Loves Escort Missions: Fades are great at Marine killing, but terrible for everything else. Most end games consist of Fades flicking around attacking vainly at deadly Marines. This is because Fades <i>do not win matches</i>. Gorges do. Fades exist to escort Gorges and distract and weaken Marine defenders. Nothing is more distracting than a Fade flicking in the middle of a base. This allows the real work to be done; bilebombing Marine buildings.
#5: Lerks, What are They Good For? (Absolutely Nothing!): Lerks provide AoE (Area of Effect) area denial. When Marines with Flamethrowers and Grenade launchers are chewing up Alien Defenses, Gorges and Fades, it is up to the Lerks to save the day. Not only can Lerks take out the most powerful Marines with long distance snipes (Yes, that's what the right mouse button is for), but they provide the best method of scattering groups of Marines: Spores. Use Spores to split up larger groups of Marines and chase them back to heal. Teach the Marines to fear the sound of a Spore attack.
Marines are not losing because the game is imbalanced (though it is). Marines lose because they <i>do not know how to play</i>. Hopefully this short guild will help your team to try better tactics. Remember: Deny movement, attack supply routes, push with the proper forces, and listen to your Commanders!
I'm saying the 3rd hive is primarily for damage/armor 3, the last upgrade structure, and most likely Onos and some other endgame alien ability unlocks.
Marines naturally fortify their current base, as the aliens naturally try to gain more territory.
Ns1 had armor and damage tied to the hives and that worked pretty well.
• For starters, the commander has a greater effect on the outcome of the game.
• The time it takes from the point a Marines dies, until he spawns and then returns to the same point he was before takes longer.
• Building takes longer.
• The relationship between players is still lacking, as people only move in groups when things get desperate.
* Here is a bit of psychology - People are much more likely to go out of their way to avoid a loss, than to make a gain. Rewarding squads that stick together won't work as well as say L4D2's 'you must stick together or you'll lose players'. A copy is not workable, but some sort of 'loss' dynamic might well be.
• Sentries are still not working. I think for map control to work, Marines have to be able to shut down 'routes' through the map. 5 Powerful sentries would be more than enough to shut off key locations, whilst not dominating the whole map. Reloading is a ball ache. However, map control is also required - so it is a catch 22.
• UI is generally poor - Marines are the 'tech' guys, communication needs to be emphasised more. When the commander is not using the mic, it would be good to see what his mouse is doing on the Mini map, where he/she is on the mini map.
• Squads do not work still. If you break from a squad there should be a count down of 10 seconds before you leave the squad. For every second you are in the squad, you gain an extra second from the point you leave. So if you are in it for 5 seconds and leave, that would be a 15 second count down.
• Why is everything blue UWE... we get it, blue for Marines. Players STILL don't see that structures need to be built. What has happened to the white circle on the ground indicating a structure needs to be built/what it's health is? Blue arrows everywhere are not good - and they should disappear and become blue circle/icon indicators on the ground when in view. I'm trying to shoot aliens and there are blue floaty things in the way. Pink goes really well with blue (that is a joke btw)... but maybe some more red, or dark dusty purples, orange... Something in that area of the spectrum.
• Stalemates for both teams are an issue come end game, and you need to have the whole map locked down as Marines before you really have a chance of making sure there are no more hives. There is no real reward to boost a teams strength based on map control.
Just a few pointers - but UI could be a lot smarter.
I take it you haven't watched ana . Tempest Lerk? He is more effective then the best fade out there... It's not even RIGHT lol
That doesn't make any sense. If the game is imbalanced then it must be causing losses because of the imbalance. I don't think it's just every marine player doesn't know how to play.
You should know, I play on the server with him, and you :) - The advice about Lerks comes directly from their clan.
Though I always play Aliens, since they're imbalanced. (Not really, I just love the humble skulk).
Aliens don't have an ability to attack several marine units at once, except for the lerk spore, which doesn't affect MACs. This strategy, unlike turret farms, has no weakness.
There, now let's see what happens to win ratios.
Aliens don't have an ability to attack several marine units at once, except for the lerk spore, which doesn't affect MACs. This strategy, unlike turret farms, has no weakness.
There, now let's see what happens to win ratios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The weakness is that the server tickrate tanks and then crashes. Any more than about 10 AI (MACs, Drifters, ARCs) moving at one time wrecks havok on the server.
<!--quoteo(post=1865828:date=Aug 2 2011, 02:15 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 2 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh MACs are quite annoying when there are a lot of them and they have the speed upgrade. I've seen a few MAC kills, especially on Lerks, as the MAC hovers right above the lerk where it can't fly upwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do this all the time and its awesome (like getting a kill with the axe). The super speedy MACs make it much more effective.
In small games (with less than 8 players) Marine spawn is very vunlerable to early Skulks taking out the IP. In larger game, it is usually due to the lack of team play. IMO, Marines have all the necessary weapons and territory control to crush any alien resistance, if the Marine team defends their spawn and 2-3 addition Resource Nodes til they can get all their upgrades.
There really needs to be a cap on the population of AI controlled units. They're a scourge on the game!
MACs are less affordable than the early NS days (when they used to be built using energy from the CS), but having more than 20 MACs on the map at the same time is still not good for the game's well being (performance and balance wise). The same could possibly be said about ARCs and Hydras (Whips aren't too problematic ATM, in my experience).
I still win games as marines, but I admit only when I'm commanding, I have over a year experience in that now, so that gives me an egde. Compared to marine commander alien commander is much easier, even if it's your first time, you still got a good chance to win ;-)
The alien commander really needs some big changes to make him more challenging, possibily give the commander to drop healing waves or some kind of protection wave to increase the interaction with the players..