Unbalances in 183
Wilson
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
I thought I'd make this topic to sum up what I feel are the current imbalances in build 183.
1. Fades - They are hugely overpowered. It's too hard for marines to kill them and they take very little skill to use. As soon as a few fades come out the marines are forced back into their base and there's nothing they can do about it.
2. Sentry guns - If the marines spam them in every room there's nothing the aliens can do, even if they control most of the map and have all their tech. The aliens need an effective way to destroy sentry guns.
3. Aliens tech is too cheap and they can defend res towers easily - Aliens rarely need to worry about res and they don't need to worry about any early pressure for the marines. I think increasing the cost of alien tech and upgrades as well as giving the marines a 'spawn on squad' feature would fix this.
Allowing the marines to spawn on their squad mates would give them the ability to put early pressure on the alien res towers and hold positions further up the map. Perhaps it could cost a certain amount of res and be unavailable on infestation to stop it being too powerful. Phase gates are too hard to use offensively because as soon as they are left undefended 1 skulk can take it out while killing any marines that try and teleport through. They also take time to research and build so it's harder to use them dynamically (getting marines to different points on the map quickly).
These are the big ones for now. I also feel there are a couple of smaller imbalances:
MACs are too fast, they are too difficult for aliens to hit and they repair too quickly - IMO MACs should be vulnerable units, but right now it is difficult for the aliens to hit them because of how fast they move. Drifters don't have the same problem because the marines have ranged weapons and can pick them off from distances. MACs also reapir too quickly, they can get a command station back up to full HP before the aliens get across the map to attack it again. They can also repair structures faster than a lot of the aliens can damage them.
Also, MACs can be stacked up so that 10+ are moving around inside each other (looks like 1 mac). They can build and repair stuff almost instantly. They can also kill fades in a few seconds if there are enough of them.
Early hydras have no counter - Gorges can get hydras right at the start of the game, while the marines have no counter to them. If a few gorges place 5-6 hydras in surface access it's very difficult for the marines to do anything about them. They are forced to rush nade launchers, which takes a lot of time and res. The marines should be able to react to alien strategies quickly.
1. Fades - They are hugely overpowered. It's too hard for marines to kill them and they take very little skill to use. As soon as a few fades come out the marines are forced back into their base and there's nothing they can do about it.
2. Sentry guns - If the marines spam them in every room there's nothing the aliens can do, even if they control most of the map and have all their tech. The aliens need an effective way to destroy sentry guns.
3. Aliens tech is too cheap and they can defend res towers easily - Aliens rarely need to worry about res and they don't need to worry about any early pressure for the marines. I think increasing the cost of alien tech and upgrades as well as giving the marines a 'spawn on squad' feature would fix this.
Allowing the marines to spawn on their squad mates would give them the ability to put early pressure on the alien res towers and hold positions further up the map. Perhaps it could cost a certain amount of res and be unavailable on infestation to stop it being too powerful. Phase gates are too hard to use offensively because as soon as they are left undefended 1 skulk can take it out while killing any marines that try and teleport through. They also take time to research and build so it's harder to use them dynamically (getting marines to different points on the map quickly).
These are the big ones for now. I also feel there are a couple of smaller imbalances:
MACs are too fast, they are too difficult for aliens to hit and they repair too quickly - IMO MACs should be vulnerable units, but right now it is difficult for the aliens to hit them because of how fast they move. Drifters don't have the same problem because the marines have ranged weapons and can pick them off from distances. MACs also reapir too quickly, they can get a command station back up to full HP before the aliens get across the map to attack it again. They can also repair structures faster than a lot of the aliens can damage them.
Also, MACs can be stacked up so that 10+ are moving around inside each other (looks like 1 mac). They can build and repair stuff almost instantly. They can also kill fades in a few seconds if there are enough of them.
Early hydras have no counter - Gorges can get hydras right at the start of the game, while the marines have no counter to them. If a few gorges place 5-6 hydras in surface access it's very difficult for the marines to do anything about them. They are forced to rush nade launchers, which takes a lot of time and res. The marines should be able to react to alien strategies quickly.
Comments
1. Fades - They are hugely overpowered. It's too hard for marines to kill them and they take very little skill to use. As soon as a few fades come out the marines are forced back into their base and there's nothing they can do about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are powerful mainly because of this line of Blink code
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Blink.kMinEnterEtherealTime = 0.5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
That sets the cool-down of Blink. But because the cool-down starts when the Fade begins Blinking (rather then when Blink ends), they can re-enter Blink almost instantly, unless they attack (then they have to wait for T = attack cooldown).
If either one of the following changes is made, Fades will be more vulnerable (and balanced):
1. Start the countdown when Fade leaves Blink, so Fade becomes vulnerable for at least 0.5 second after leaving Blink, or
2. Increase the cooldown (eg 1.0 sec), so Fades have to wait for the remaining duration (up to 1.0 sec) if they leave Blink early. Fades can still re-enter Blink instantly, but only after they have stayed in the ether for (1.0) second or longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 03:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Sentry guns - If the marines spam them in every room there's nothing the aliens can do, even if they control most of the map and have all their tech. The aliens need an effective way to destroy sentry guns.
3. Aliens tech is too cheap and they can defend res towers easily - Aliens rarely need to worry about res and they don't need to worry about any early pressure for the marines. I think increasing the cost of alien tech and upgrades as well as giving the marines a 'spawn on squad' feature would fix this.
Allowing the marines to spawn on their squad mates would give them the ability to put early pressure on the alien res towers and hold positions further up the map. Perhaps it could cost a certain amount of res and be unavailable on infestation to stop it being too powerful. Phase gates are too hard to use offensively because as soon as they are left undefended 1 skulk can take it out while killing any marines that try and teleport through. They also take time to research and build so it's harder to use them dynamically (getting marines to different points on the map quickly).
MACs are too fast, they are too difficult for aliens to hit and they repair too quickly - IMO MACs should be vulnerable units, but right now it is difficult for the aliens to hit them because of how fast they move. Drifters don't have the same problem because the marines have ranged weapons and can pick them off from distances. MACs also reapir too quickly, they can get a command station back up to full HP before the aliens get across the map to attack it again. They can also repair structures faster than a lot of the aliens can damage them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My guess is the resource models are going to be improved over the next month or two. From my experience, the main strategic balance issues are:
- Early Kharaa map domination, because they do not need much resource to overpower the Marines.
- Sentries in large numbers are usually effective at stopping Kharaa attacks, creating stalemates. Marines can then spend excess TRes on additional new/replacement Sentries, creating a vicious cycle.
- Kharaa cannot effectively convert excess TRes into attack power, after all their researches are complete. Marines have ARCs, MACs (which can build kamikaze Sentries).
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 03:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Early hydras have no counter - Gorges can get hydras right at the start of the game, while the marines have no counter to them. If a few gorges place 5-6 hydras in surface access it's very difficult for the marines to do anything about them. They are forced to rush nade launchers, which takes a lot of time and res. The marines should be able to react to alien strategies quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pistols and Shotguns take out Hydras fast enough, if the Marines are healed by Med Packs. If most of the aliens have evolved to Gorge and planted Hydras in Surface Access, Alien Start will be very vulnerable to a Shotgun rush. Otherwise, if the Marines take out two Harvesters, the aliens will be PRes starved, even if their second Hive complete. They will be unable to evolve to Fade (as they spent their Pres on Hydras).
Problem is if lets say 2 guys go gorge and you have 4-5 skulks running around, that's plenty to defend alien start and the RTs. If the gorges place 4-5 hydras at the top of the ramp leading into surface access. It's very difficult for the marines to run up there and destroy the hydras, even if they have shotguns, medpacks etc. The gorges can sit behind the wall of hydras just continually healing them and they just need a skulk or two to wait till marines try and push up the ramp and it'll be next to impossible for marines to do anything.
I often hear people say, marines can just take out the undefended RTs or Alien start. That very rarely happens though, because the aliens can cover multiple areas of the map at once. Marines are the ones who need to stay close to the base and defend all the time. Aliens can move around freely and just need to go where the marines are attacking.
If the marines attack SA from behind or try and go through crevice to alien start, the aliens can respond in time quite easily. Wherever the marines are putting pressure the aliens can respond in time, or if the marines leave their base too exposed they can counter-attack and end the game quickly.
I often hear people say, marines can just take out the undefended RTs or Alien start. That very rarely happens though, because the aliens can cover multiple areas of the map at once. Marines are the ones who need to stay close to the base and defend all the time. Aliens can move around freely and just need to go where the marines are attacking.
If the marines attack SA from behind or try and go through crevice to alien start, the aliens can respond in time quite easily. Wherever the marines are putting pressure the aliens can respond in time, or if the marines leave their base too exposed they can counter-attack and end the game quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess mappers need to add more lockable doors to give Marines an early defensive advantage. That reminds me of SC2 Terran, who need to build Supply Depo wall, or a bunker for early defense against Zerg.
A full marine team supported by 1 armory can take out dozens of hydras without using grenade launchers. And if the aliens rush MS as a counter, you just beacon again.
Fades are not hugely overpowered. I as a single marine have soloed several fades in 183. And fades go down quickly to a group of rines. Marines get pushed back to base when they arent killing the aliens.
<b>The only problem with the fade right now is that it's blink don't have an activation cost</b>. That would make blink used wisely, to engage/disengage. Not spamming in and out of blink so marines and sentrys can't hit you. It's like some form of a shield ability that makes you invis/invul half the time, when you are OUT of adrenaline and spam mouse2.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Sentry guns - If the marines spam them in every room there's nothing the aliens can do, even if they control most of the map and have all their tech. The aliens need an effective way to destroy sentry guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two gorges with bilebomb can do alot of damage in a few seconds, if the other aliens attack while they do this, you win. If the turrets are close together, then it's even easier.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Aliens tech is too cheap and they can defend res towers easily - Aliens rarely need to worry about res and they don't need to worry about any early pressure for the marines. I think increasing the cost of alien tech and upgrades as well as giving the marines a 'spawn on squad' feature would fix this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will have alot of more tech to worry about later in the development progress. Marines can still damage the alien economy/tech both early- and end-game.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing the marines to spawn on their squad mates would give them the ability to put early pressure on the alien res towers and hold positions further up the map. Perhaps it could cost a certain amount of res and be unavailable on infestation to stop it being too powerful. Phase gates are too hard to use offensively because as soon as they are left undefended 1 skulk can take it out while killing any marines that try and teleport through. They also take time to research and build so it's harder to use them dynamically (getting marines to different points on the map quickly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines getting transponder technology on IPs so they can teleport to their squad. I still hope this in the game, for a test at least. The consoles are still on the IPs :P This should still be an upgrade though.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MACs are too fast, they are too difficult for aliens to hit and they repair too quickly - IMO MACs should be vulnerable units, but right now it is difficult for the aliens to hit them because of how fast they move. Drifters don't have the same problem because the marines have ranged weapons and can pick them off from distances. MACs also reapir too quickly, they can get a command station back up to full HP before the aliens get across the map to attack it again. They can also repair structures faster than a lot of the aliens can damage them.
Also, MACs can be stacked up so that 10+ are moving around inside each other (looks like 1 mac). They can build and repair stuff almost instantly. They can also kill fades in a few seconds if there are enough of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all due to the pathing of AI units getting another pass, lets be patient. Drifters are also too fast atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Early hydras have no counter - Gorges can get hydras right at the start of the game, while the marines have no counter to them. If a few gorges place 5-6 hydras in surface access it's very difficult for the marines to do anything about them. They are forced to rush nade launchers, which takes a lot of time and res. The marines should be able to react to alien strategies quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smart marines can still kill hydras in the early game. But if they are defended by gorges and skulks, you will either need ARCs or GLs.
Because its cheaper to get a ARC, I would say thats the perfect solution to hydra defenses. If you don't have that, don't go there.
<b>The only problem with the fade right now is that it's blink don't have an activation cost</b>. That would make blink used wisely, to engage/disengage. Not spamming in and out of blink so marines and sentrys can't hit you. It's like some form of a shield ability that makes you invis/invul half the time, when you are OUT of adrenaline and spam mouse2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should be able to solo fades if you are good enough IMO. Every game I've played, as soon as fades come out the marines are forced back into their base. I have never see a game where the marine can contain the aliens once they have fades.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two gorges with bilebomb can do alot of damage in a few seconds, if the other aliens attack while they do this, you win. If the turrets are close together, then it's even easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this was effective then you wouldn't see sentry farms that drag games out for hours as the aliens would just bile bomb them and get it over with.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They will have alot of more tech to worry about later in the development progress. Marines can still damage the alien economy/tech both early- and end-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand that the game is not complete. I'm just giving balance feedback now as I'm sure the devs and players would rather have a game that's reasonably balanced at the moment even without all the features.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Smart marines can still kill hydras in the early game. But if they are defended by gorges and skulks, you will either need ARCs or GLs.
Because its cheaper to get a ARC, I would say thats the perfect solution to hydra defenses. If you don't have that, don't go there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, you need to build an ARC to counter something that the aliens can get instantly. That's the problem.
You can't drop 4-5 hydras. For one, the cmd will run out of energy to place pustules and you're down to 15 res at the start from becoming a gorge. At most you'll have two hydras there, and one more coming up after quite a while as with one or two res towers it takes forever. Even then, a single hydra will die if its got two players dumping LMG rounds into it, so long as they're accurate. An undefended hydra is almost entirely without threat to marines. You've got an enemy whose down two players to sit around and heal the hydras. You can ignore them, they can't advance to do much of anything until they get another 5 res+3 more for a cyst, which is only going to move them some 20 feet forward.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I often hear people say, marines can just take out the undefended RTs or Alien start. That very rarely happens though, because the aliens can cover multiple areas of the map at once. Marines are the ones who need to stay close to the base and defend all the time. Aliens can move around freely and just need to go where the marines are attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last I checked hives have no defense either. So why is it that one alien trashes the entire enemy base while a couple marines can't do that to the hive? I see crevice towers being taken down all the time, I also see early rushes into SA and Alien start all the time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marines attack SA from behind or try and go through crevice to alien start, the aliens can respond in time quite easily. Wherever the marines are putting pressure the aliens can respond in time, or if the marines leave their base too exposed they can counter-attack and end the game quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's really an issue of base management, not alien speed. If you have one IP with no sentries watching it, of course it's going to get killed. Many of the problems players have with sentry guns not working well has much more to do with careless base lay out than sentry guns themselves. The number of time's I've seen people dump robotics right between sentries and the two IP's is staggering.
I hope this never happens. It is not needed. Phase Gates are awesome in the right hands. In NS1 they turned the tides of games easily. I have never liked "Squad" game play especially in public servers. Anything left undefended is fair game. PGs in NS 1 were only dropped on the front lines or strategic locations guarded lightly by turrets or players ready to respond at the first sign of damage (granted you could electrify an rt and place mines around it for early warning/defense, but any determined alien team would take it out if not defended by the <i>whole team</i> . Beacon will help as well.). Lazy marines isnt a good reason to take out PGs. Play NS 1 a while and you will see how much fun they are.
Imo Squads as you describe lowers the skill cap on the game by catering to laziness and buying into current game gimmicks that have circular maps where strategic locations are won and lost in seconds and then regained just as fast. Summit is a good map but not for the full NS2 game. You will see =)
Simply because the amount of time it takes for the marines to get to alien start is too long for them to keep continual pressure. If the aliens are attacking marine start and get killed
they can very quickly spawn and get back there to keep the pressure on. Yes, marines sometimes push into crevice or alien start but it's not nearly as often as the aliens harassing the marine base and RTs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's really an issue of base management, not alien speed. If you have one IP with no sentries watching it, of course it's going to get killed. Many of the problems players have with sentry guns not working well has much more to do with careless base lay out than sentry guns themselves. The number of time's I've seen people dump robotics right between sentries and the two IP's is staggering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentry guns are overpowered. Using them as a means to defend against something else that is overpowered isn't the solution. If the aliens have control of the entire map the marines can still drag the game out for hours by just sitting in their base with sentry guns. It shouldn't be this way. If the aliens have total map control they should be able to roll over the marines and win quickly.
@RisingSun: I never said take out phase gates. Having the ability to spawn on squad would be in addition to having phase gates. I greatly prefer fast gameplay where each team can attack strategic locations quickly and continually harass the opponents. I like the back and forth that takes place. I hate playing games where the map gets locked down and the battle only takes place in one area for hours - these games bore me a great deal.
As for sentry guns being overpowered, I don't see it that way. They're game extenders, just like hydras are. The only difference is that aliens don't have as effective of a building smasher as the marines do (Bile v Grenade Launcher) and that because of hydras very limited range, they tend to be grown in clusters that are easy to heal and put out maximal firepower (because its nowhere near a sentry guns level.) That's why hydras are only typically a slowing mechanism, not a complete game stopper, while sentry guns are able to hold up games practically eternally. When onos come in I think sentry guns won't help so much at the end and this stale mate stuff will end without us needing to do anything else. The hydras, well they already die easily, so that's not really going to change, miniguns will kill them, sure, but its direct fire, and one per, not like the grenades.
But that is the point to NS and a lot of other would agree. NS had it's choke points and hot spots only. Marines can provide steady pressure buy just spawning and PGing in. That is all that is needed. Just remember as well that the game isnt half done yet. There were and will be ways to break turtles. I really wish you had play NS in it's glory days. Such an awesome feel just to be in a game. Even when chips were down and one team was cornered there was always a way to come back (although slim).
If NS were to go the way of those lack luster titles such as Battlefield, Call of Duty, and others like them the game will die in under 3-4 months when NS1 is brought back through fans. I pray this doesnt happen. (though a pretty NS1 WOULD be fun to play lol)
<ol type='1'><li>A fast way of getting back to base (beacon would do) or</li><li>Increase the health of IPs (giving the marines more time to get back to base to defend the IP) or</li><li>Make it easier for the comm to defend his base (maybe give him a 2-3s invulnerability when leaving the CS?)</li></ol>
<b>Phate Gate Phasing:</b> The only way I see the Aliens being prohibited from camping phase gates and eliminating impossible faces through the gates to protect them is have their is a slight push back when a Marine phases through the gate. This will prevent the Aliens having the ability to just sit on the face gate and wipe out anything that tries to phase through. When I say "push back", I mean something that nudges the Alien a slight distance from the phase gate. Similar to the nudge (but I am thinking of additional distance) as the old school "/stuck" command. By the way, please bring the /stuck command back. It's a simple few lines of code that "nudges" the players current location within the environment enough distance to re-engage him with a flat open surface. X Y algorithm calculation, not difficult correct?.
<b>Robotics Factory:</b> As of right now, if the Marines build a single Robotics Factory, they can place turrets anywhere on the map. I don't know how that makes sense, but I can live with it seeing as Ammo and Health drops from thin air. My issue is the amount of turrets a user can place throughout the map and the amount of MACs it can produce. I think there should be a cap on production out of a single Robotics Factory. This would prevent turret spam, MAC spam and force the Marine commander to build multiple Robotic Factories to support his secured locations. I think it would be more realistic if each Robotics Factory was able to produce 15 turrets (built at one time, no 15 turrets builds only), 5 MACs and 3 Arcs. This will prevent the infamous Turret spam and the very unfair advantage 5+ MACs have when repairing/building Power Nodes.
<b>MAC Speed:</b> It's clearly obvious that the MAC speed upgrade is faster than anything that moves within NS2. For starters, the speed needs to slow down by 25% when fully upgraded. Then, to give the Aliens the chance to actually take an upgraded MAC at full speed down, I think the MAC speed should gradually speed up to its top speed instead of being at top speed as soon as it moves. This acceleration is realistic and no longer creates the unfair advantage MACs have mid -to- late game.
<b>Alien Tech:</b> The early game is heavily in favor of Aliens, it's as simple as that. The time is takes for an Alien Comm. to drop an upgrade chamber, upgrade the first choice of upgrade (Usually Melee), Spread and drop a Harvester and then drop a hive. The marines are lucky if they even have 2 RTs and an Armslab built. I think the current price for upgrading Melee and Defense should be more expensive. Also, the total time is takes to upgrade Melee or Defense compared to the Marine Comm. upgrading Armor or Weapons has got to be less than half. Its frustratingly long when your trying to always play the catch up game with the Aliens, no matter how "leet" your Marines are. This system needs to be looked at further once the final features are implemented within the game.
<b>Fades:</b> I completely agree with twiliteblue and both his suggestions. A Fade should not be able to blink around the map without a larger cool down. I've lost count of the amount of times a Fade was near death and was able to squeeze out of an entire group of Marines emptying bullets towards him by just blinking around instantaneously. There needs to be a cool down that is applied after the Fade exits a Blink. This will make fades pin point how and when they swing and blink in and out of battle. Now a Fade can simply Blink around an entire area without taking damage while the Marine empties a clip trying to track them and then simply take out the Marine. Yes, the Marine shouldn't be shooting aimlessly, but the Fade should also be taking damage regardless of his Blink state which will cause him to use Blink as an attack feature, instead of a "take no damage" feature.
<b>Early Hydras:</b> Allowing a Gorge to build multiple Hydras in any location such as SA in the early game is not a fault with the game mechanics. It is a fault with the Marine team pushing and preventing the cyst expansion and building of multiple (10R) Hydras. If this is to happen, I think a great push from a Marine team will completely neutralize this if a team works together. Also, if each Marine is equipped with 1 Hand Grenade each at game start, this can also help negate the infamous Hydras!
<ol type='1'><li>A fast way of getting back to base (beacon would do) or</li><li>Increase the health of IPs (giving the marines more time to get back to base to defend the IP) or</li><li>Make it easier for the comm to defend his base (maybe give him a 2-3s invulnerability when leaving the CS?)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>1: Distress Beacon will fix this entirely.</b>
2: Ehh, it's fine how it is. I think the suggestion I threw in the mix above of giving the Alien a nudge back when they are sitting on an IP taking out everyone that spawns will fix this. It will knock back the Alien enough for the Marine to move and attempt a defense instead of getting stuck on the IP and being killed before he is able to get a single shot off.
3: Ehh, that's a bit unfair. If that's the case, then the same would have to be done for the Alien Comm. How would you like an Alien Comm that gestated info a Fade come out and be invulnerable for 2-3seconds, jump back in the hive and exit again and be invulnerable again? Same goes for a Heavy Marine with an HMG, rinse and repeat. This will not work my friend...
Perhaps you're right. Maybe a increase in spawn time for the marines would be enough (which I think they are doing for the next patch). Aliens have a big advantage in that they can spawn quickly and all at once if there are eggs available. It can take marines 30-40 seconds for them all to spawn and then longer to advance up the map.
I agree with most of the other things you said. I'd like to see the MAC have a slow acceleration to top speed. The fade should require an initial amount of energy to go into blink and also taking damage while blinking. Not sure about robos having a limit, I think there's a better way to handle sentries. Aliens just need an effective way to take them out (like nade launchers vs hydras). MACs should also cost a bit more.
Bilebomb destroys turrets very easily 1 on 1 or when a couple of turrets are bunched together. Same as the GL takes out Hydras easily when bunched together.
However, if their are 5 sentries pointing 1 direction, a Bilebombing Gorge will die before the second Bilebomb even hits. This is why a sentry limit per Robotics Factory should be implemented for at least a "beta trial test". Let the community decide if having a limit on turrets is an acceptable resolution for turret spam.
<b>Fades:</b> I completely agree with twiliteblue and both his suggestions. A Fade should not be able to blink around the map without a larger cool down. I've lost count of the amount of times a Fade was near death and was able to squeeze out of an entire group of Marines emptying bullets towards him by just blinking around instantaneously. There needs to be a cool down that is applied after the Fade exits a Blink. This will make fades pin point how and when they swing and blink in and out of battle. Now a Fade can simply Blink around an entire area without taking damage while the Marine empties a clip trying to track them and then simply take out the Marine. Yes, the Marine shouldn't be shooting aimlessly, but the Fade should also be taking damage regardless of his Blink state which will cause him to use Blink as an attack feature, instead of a "take no damage" feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am speaking from NS 1 experience with most of what i am about to say. PGs were never a problem to defend and only when all marines were killed AND there were 3 or more aliens chomping did it actually go down. There is no reason for any tweaks or push back. This is a temporary fragile advantage marines have. In NS 1 games PGs would go up for a quick rush or used as a tactical strong hold outside of a hive. Either way it was never permanent. Once the hive was down the com would move all tech INTO the hive. They are fine as is and shouldnt be hard for a unified alien team to take down with effort.
I come from knowing fades as the unit that moved all over the map to confront the marine team first and allow other to get there. Skulks were LMG fodder, Onos way to slow, and lerks to fragile. If such a limitation was put on the fade movement wise the aliens lose a lot of options. They are the team that excels in map movement but have the draw back of melee combat. Likewise the reverse, the marines have ranged attacks but movement suffers. I love this mix and hope never to see that go away. The invul while blinking is annoying. I would give up the cool new blink for the original NS one in a heart beat. (Initial boost of speed with air control).
Not over powered at all you baddie, work together with your team mates a fireteam of 1 flame thrower and 2 shotguns will be the end of the fade unless he disengages right away, if he stays for abit and then runs it's beacause he's low life, chase him and kill him.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 07:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Sentry guns - If the marines spam them in every room there's nothing the aliens can do, even if they control most of the map and have all their tech. The aliens need an effective way to destroy sentry guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're an idiot, learn to play bile bombs rape sentries, i've watched a single gorge ruin entire turret farms.
<!--quoteo(post=1866295:date=Aug 4 2011, 07:58 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 4 2011, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Aliens tech is too cheap and they can defend res towers easily - Aliens rarely need to worry about res and they don't need to worry about any early pressure for the marines. I think increasing the cost of alien tech and upgrades as well as giving the marines a 'spawn on squad' feature would fix this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines do not need a spawn on squad feature, they already have phase gates, that is enough. this isn't bad company 2.
Why does everyone feel the need to insist that marines should be able to solo 1v1 aliens, should you be able to stand toe to toe with an onos too? if you want to be able to stand toe to toe then marines need to be outnumebred all the time, the team balencing should be changed to 2 aliens for every 1 marine.
I come from knowing fades as the unit that moved all over the map to confront the marine team first and allow other to get there. Skulks were LMG fodder, Onos way to slow, and lerks to fragile. If such a limitation was put on the fade movement wise the aliens lose a lot of options. They are the team that excels in map movement but have the draw back of melee combat. Likewise the reverse, the marines have ranged attacks but movement suffers. I love this mix and hope never to see that go away. The invul while blinking is annoying. I would give up the cool new blink for the original NS one in a heart beat. (Initial boost of speed with air control).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When referring to NS1 phase gates, remember that the method you are defining consisted of using a Distress Beacon and a team rush through the phase gates (which is not possible at the moment). Protecting phase gates were easier in NS1 as they were larger in size, allowing marines to phase through and actually move without an insta-kill (which then allowed additional marines to phase through) and turrets shot 360 degrees almost instantaneous. The maps were also larger allowing Marines to protect structures with their LMG from a further distance, where as all the current maps are extremely small and tight that close combat is almost the only option.
Nothing relied on power and you were able to drop what you want, where you want, which you are unable to do now. Now your forced to place your structures in a smaller area or spend additional resources building power packs (which I prefer). The current turret and phase gate system is different than NS1 and should not use the same approach that your suggesting.
Fades should not be invulnerable during Blink -or- they should have a .5-1sec delay between each Blink. This will help and hurt the Fade class. It will give him that short period of time to charge up more energy to travel further for their next blink. However, it will require a fade to actually have <b>skill</b> and know when and how to Blink in and out of battle.
Please remember, this is not Natural Selection 1. The mechanics and approach is different so comparing features that differ is not the right approach.
Nothing relied on power and you were able to drop what you want, where you want, which you are unable to do now. Now your forced to place your structures in a smaller area or spend additional resources building power packs (which I prefer). The current turret and phase gate system is different than NS1 and should not use the same approach that your suggesting.
Fades should not be invulnerable during Blink -or- they should have a .5-1sec delay between each Blink. This will help and hurt the Fade class. It will give him that short period of time to charge up more energy to travel further for their next blink. However, it will require a fade to actually have <b>skill</b> and know when and how to Blink in and out of battle.
Please remember, this is not Natural Selection 1. The mechanics and approach is different so comparing features that differ is not the right approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything you said in the first paragraph refers to the map being too small which the devs are aware of and are making future maps much bigger.
You can still place things where you like, you just need one additional structure (mini generator or whatever it is called *havent comm'd much).
Fades i agree should never be invulnerable along with anything else in the game. Adding a forced lag between blinks would be stupid and would make energy management entirely unnecessary. If the game went that way why not a time between swipes? Hell, why even play at all. The game could just flash things at you like "attack now". "blink now" and you can play a fade with one button and just direct him where to go...
And finally please remember this is Natural Selection 2 which is a squeal that wants to take NS 1 and improve it. That is why they didnt make a completely new game. The mechanics and approach are all the same just with new weapons and abilities. Only thing that has changed marine wise is macs, flamethrowers, movable sentry guns, and the power grid (minus the small tweaks to turrets, and GL on the LMG). Not a HUGE leap there. So please dont lecture me on the "This isnt NS1 crap."
ONCE ALL ASPECTS, ABILITIES, CLASSES, TECH ETC ARE IN THE GAME THEN WORRY ABOUT BALANCE. EVERYTHING WILL HAVE MORE COUNTERS BY THEN FADES WILL HAVE TO GO AGAINST JET PACKED MARINES, HEAVY ARMOUR, MARINES WILL HAVE TO GO AGAINST ONOS, ETC ETC. NOW IS NOT T HE TIME TO WORRY ABOUT BALANCE BUT TO DO Q&A AND ASSISST IN FINDING BUGS AND REPORTING THEM.
Thank you. :3
ltl;dr just enjoy you actually get to preview (play) the game right now and assist the devs in it's devolopment as far as bugs and fixes go, but otherwise it's pointless to cry out for balance changes for an incomplete game when not all tech and abilties are even introduced yet.
ONCE ALL ASPECTS, ABILITIES, CLASSES, TECH ETC ARE IN THE GAME THEN WORRY ABOUT BALANCE. EVERYTHING WILL HAVE MORE COUNTERS BY THEN FADES WILL HAVE TO GO AGAINST JET PACKED MARINES, HEAVY ARMOUR, MARINES WILL HAVE TO GO AGAINST ONOS, ETC ETC. NOW IS NOT T HE TIME TO WORRY ABOUT BALANCE BUT TO DO Q&A AND ASSISST IN FINDING BUGS AND REPORTING THEM.
Thank you. :3
ltl;dr just enjoy you actually get to preview (play) the game right now and assist the devs in it's devolopment as far as bugs and fixes go, but otherwise it's pointless to cry out for balance changes for an incomplete game when not all tech and abilties are even introduced yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree.
2: Ehh, it's fine how it is. I think the suggestion I threw in the mix above of giving the Alien a nudge back when they are sitting on an IP taking out everyone that spawns will fix this. It will knock back the Alien enough for the Marine to move and attempt a defense instead of getting stuck on the IP and being killed before he is able to get a single shot off.
3: Ehh, that's a bit unfair. If that's the case, then the same would have to be done for the Alien Comm. How would you like an Alien Comm that gestated info a Fade come out and be invulnerable for 2-3seconds, jump back in the hive and exit again and be invulnerable again? Same goes for a Heavy Marine with an HMG, rinse and repeat. This will not work my friend...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know distress beacon would solve this problem, but would cause other problems of forcibly transporting marines from other productive uses (expanding, defending expansions, attacking aliens). Quite simply, there are many situations in which there are more aliens in MS than I can handle alone, but don't need the whole team to come back for, which is the only option beacon gives. That's why I like 2 or 3 better as they are tailored more specifically to the problem than beacon. Also, I don't think its unfair, because aliens don't have a problem defending their bases right now, marines do. It also adds to the asymmetrical nature of the sides (i.e. is it unfair that marines get the ARC and aliens don't?)
Also, to those saying their isn't any worth in balancing right now, the process of feature inclusion/balancing isn't linear. In many cases, you need to do them at the same time to understand how features interact so that you can fix the underlying problems rather than symptoms. Sometimes you find there is a feature that doesn't fit and should be removed or another that would help balance but isn't included. For example, UWE was originally going to include squad teleporting and beacon to help with marine mobility, but switched to phasegates instead because the first one wasn't working. That's something they figured out in the middle of balancing a non-feature complete game.
I'm usually smarter than that :P
It's the pro and the con of the ability.