The issue I'm having with these shots are they look dull and lifeless. It's like looking at a call centre office. Not to mention there are no ambush spots in that entire room. Flat ceiling, flat walls, flat floor. I'm not saying you shouldn't do a clean style map, but there is clean and then there is dull. This is dull.
Now let's make it constructive. Take that screenshot, open it up in paint, draw on it what you would like me to do. Any props or texture changes please reference them from the Spark editor by name (make them in the editor & copy/paste dir's). Any architecture changes, just draw them and explain best as possible. I'd leave out any minor height changes to the floor, as the 2/4 unit raising and bevelling will be done very late on.
I'll give any suggestions you have a good look through and consideration before issuing any final changes.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
I don't actually have a problem with the relatively monochrome lighting, I think that can be made to work quite nicely. But what's making your lighting look flat is that it lacks contrast. If you don't want to make it more colourful, then you should put in more contrast between light and shade. That doesn't mean that you have to make anything darker, just pick a baseline shadow level and make sure your brightest points have a high contrast with that. At the moment, everything is more or less evenly lit, which makes it much more difficult for players to quickly pick out the elements that you think should be important.
To take an example, in that last shot you posted, the extractor, power point and door all blend into their surroundings. If you give them all brighter lighting, you can signpost them for players and bring some much needed contrast into the aesthetic at the same time. You can do the same thing with important routes that you want players to quickly identify. A good way to develop this is to do a "squint test" - sit back and squint at your screenshots, or blur them in Photoshop, and try to identify which elements stand out. When I do this with your last shot, the only thing that stands out to me are the lights on the ceiling.
If you do choose to add some more colour, a bright, harsh blue would work quite nicely with the lab theme you are going for. Also, those coloured screen lights need to be toned down a lot. They look very out of place and "Christmassy" against your muted colour palette. I'd reduce the intensity and make the colours more pale.
In terms of your actual Architecture, at the moment the transitions (e.g. between floor and ceiling) are too abrupt, and your rooms are just a bit too boxy. Like Chris suggested, consider chamfering some of your corners and try using a few more 45 degree angles. I know you are trying to keep things simple for gameplay reasons, but I think you can get away with adding a bit more detail without sacrificing that. To smooth out the transitions, try making a more thorough use of trims. For reference have a look around Tram, there's some really excellent use of trims there that it's really worth taking some inspiration from.
<!--quoteo(post=1884049:date=Nov 7 2011, 11:44 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 7 2011, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for your input zuriki.
Now let's make it constructive. Take that screenshot, open it up in paint, draw on it what you would like me to do. Any props or texture changes please reference them from the Spark editor by name (make them in the editor & copy/paste dir's). Any architecture changes, just draw them and explain best as possible. I'd leave out any minor height changes to the floor, as the 2/4 unit raising and bevelling will be done very late on.
I'll give any suggestions you have a good look through and consideration before issuing any final changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, if you're not looking for criticism then don't ask for it. If you are, learn to take it.
What you've basically asked me to do is design your map for you, the onus is not on me to provide you with blueprints for map design, if I were to do that then I might as well make my own map and take all the praise. Again, if you can't take criticism, don't ask for it.
Thanks Insane. When I look at it you're right as you look at the extractor point.
And I'm sorry if you feel that way Zuriki, there's a fine line between "It's dull" and "it's dull because, so here's how you help". I think Insane did a pretty good job at helping though so thanks.
I don't see the point in criticizing at this stage, it could use a few more features to make each room a bit more interesting but it works ok for what it is, there will be plenty of maps that are complex and cluttered, this might seem dull to some but it makes a change and thats a good thing.
Leading on from the other side of the MS, another safe simple but different looking area. As usual minor beveling not in place (that's a map end thing on all the trims etc.) and the basic lighting in.
Looks nice, glad to see some more complicated world geometry as well.
Although the way the floor grating that the player is standing on moves into the perpendicular metal grating seems a little awkward to me.<img src="http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd440/Heroman117/ns2_hallwayfeedback.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
There are current lacking texture sets, a lot of the trims and the bevelling hasn't been done. The lighting, is basic, by that I mean, I like the look of it but it will need revisited nearer the end to establish more atmosphere. It's so I don't spend forever on one area but also so I don't build a greybox map lacking character and direction.
My ethos is more on architecture and geometry than props right now. I like the feel of NS1 maps, in particular lab environments like Eclipse and the that little part of Nothing for example. I know NS is inherently dirty and grunge, however the clean lab setting was probably the most popular in NS1 and had a clearer more concise theme.
The map itself is going to be a research lab, so unless there are more lab-like props coming or someone else builds them for me, I will have to go down the route of creating areas which won't be as purposeful as the official maps such as Tram and Mineshaft for example. However I don't believe having the purpose for a room actually makes the game any more enjoyable, sure it's awesome to look at but as a competitive game player, an okay looking scene with better gameplay trumps an awesome looking scene that plays like a dog taking a dump.
I like the clean look as well. But do you have a layout that make sense for the gameplay ? It's one of the problem with the current custom maps (turtle has 6 tech points!) it seems. I'm thinking about two-three hive locations, two extractors for each team that are easy to hold, a marine start that is sufficiently protected, reasonable distances, stuff like that.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1884466:date=Nov 9 2011, 02:06 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 9 2011, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But do you have a layout that make sense for the gameplay ? It's one of the problem with the current custom maps (turtle has 6 tech points!) it seems. I'm thinking about two-three hive locations, two extractors for each team that are easy to hold, a marine start that is sufficiently protected, reasonable distances, stuff like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess there are several ways to envision a map. Either you go for the minimum with easy to defend areas, or you go for a lot of points but harder to defend. What I don't like about the first, is each time you play the map, it will be the same linear approach of each team moving towards each other. The map is like a funnel. In the second option the team can make choices and has to be aware of where the other team is focusing its efforts. The map is like a field. For pub play, option 1 may be better because of the certain absence of strategy, it is more like a deathmatch map having rts elements when talking about NS. Option 2 needs a more coherent team, needs people to be aware of the map, several strategies and a basic knowledge of the art of war and is closer to an rts experience.
In the end, I think it is best for NS2 to have a wide variety of maps with different challenges. UWE brings the core experience and the community can bring things that are more experimental. If every map follows a four extent layout, with a center piece, they will all play the same, and then people confuse gameplay with environment. A lesson from siege maps or 'iceworld' shows that if gameplay is good and the game well designed, then you don't even really need a designed map. If the maps have to have a specific layout and form and the game is designed to be that way, you could get rid of the rts elements and it won't change much (combat?).
UWE takles a very difficult challenge in merging fps and rts. For this to really work, the game has to be fun on any type of map, from large to small, dense to scarce, meaning that the game is designed without the environment established forefront. Then, each map provides a situation for the play to happen and players have to learn how to make best use of what the environment gives them.
Honestly, if NS2 is not fun on all sorts of maps, then I think UWE has failed its vision to merge rts and fps.
I do agree, but this is more long term. I was thinking right now, we have small number of players and huge big dominance after second hive, so a map that wants to be played in the current state of the game should take this into account.
I didn't really had the occasion to play your map, so I can't say much, but I heard it was hard for marines. I would like it if popular server (hbz) could change the map once in a while (map testing week-end?).
Upper walls look good at a distance, lower walls look a bit flat, as with the other stuff in general, could use a little more detail, but the clean look works.
I don't currently have one fully made out. I just have a basic RT/tech point scribble. Which is symmetric and will see a tech point very close to both starting areas to make a quick expansion. Currently 6 tech points planned, I want to see Tier 3 v Tier 3 on a map.
I wanted to try some darker looking screens as some people believe the ambient lighting is too bright, I've made it darker. Thoughts on which is better?
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2011
I rather like these screenshots, I like the style of it. Can't wait for the first version of this map. One thing I would say, is that you have to make sure that aliens have some proper ambush spots. It looks very open so far. But it's a work in progress, so keep on going.
<!--quoteo(post=1884491:date=Nov 9 2011, 11:52 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 9 2011, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In response to layout,
I don't currently have one fully made out. I just have a basic RT/tech point scribble. Which is symmetric and will see a tech point very close to both starting areas to make a quick expansion. Currently 6 tech points planned, I want to see Tier 3 v Tier 3 on a map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you might know, or might not know, marines don't need tech points to advance in tech anymore. Only aliens. I would suggest 5 tech points for the current gameplay. Also I think you should be careful putting a tech point too close to alien start, it would become too easy to defend. And you would rarely see the hive taken down. And a tech point near marine start is useless for both marines and aliens. I would also like to see you try not to make it completely symmetrical, alá veil?
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Nice! I think you could get rid of the lights on the computer screens though, they are already illuminated and its not like you are giving off a lot of light with them. But it might look more appropriate ingame than on your screenshots.
Not done too much in the past week or so, work has kept me from doing a lot.
I have thought about conduit access being rather large and close to the static MS, which will need a quicker expansion so I made it in to a tech point. Also added atmospherics.
You've done the roofs well too...attractive and there's space for aliens. Some higher spaces wouldn't go amiss.
These stacked 'servers' look fantastic and the floor in that room is awesome too <a href="http://i.imgur.com/NJIDv.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/NJIDv.jpg</a>
Negative: some rooms don't look too well put together, like this one <a href="http://i.imgur.com/JU7Pr.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/JU7Pr.jpg</a> the floor and walls dont fit well together, kinda looks like patchwork
Yeah that part of power monitoring definitely needs a redesign when I get around to it.
There are more spaces to hide later on, the rooms are designed for marine/alien biased and flow around the level to make a smooth transition between the two. As you can see at the moment there's the more marine biased areas with a beginning transition.
Comments
Now let's make it constructive. Take that screenshot, open it up in paint, draw on it what you would like me to do. Any props or texture changes please reference them from the Spark editor by name (make them in the editor & copy/paste dir's). Any architecture changes, just draw them and explain best as possible. I'd leave out any minor height changes to the floor, as the 2/4 unit raising and bevelling will be done very late on.
I'll give any suggestions you have a good look through and consideration before issuing any final changes.
To take an example, in that last shot you posted, the extractor, power point and door all blend into their surroundings. If you give them all brighter lighting, you can signpost them for players and bring some much needed contrast into the aesthetic at the same time. You can do the same thing with important routes that you want players to quickly identify. A good way to develop this is to do a "squint test" - sit back and squint at your screenshots, or blur them in Photoshop, and try to identify which elements stand out. When I do this with your last shot, the only thing that stands out to me are the lights on the ceiling.
If you do choose to add some more colour, a bright, harsh blue would work quite nicely with the lab theme you are going for. Also, those coloured screen lights need to be toned down a lot. They look very out of place and "Christmassy" against your muted colour palette. I'd reduce the intensity and make the colours more pale.
In terms of your actual Architecture, at the moment the transitions (e.g. between floor and ceiling) are too abrupt, and your rooms are just a bit too boxy. Like Chris suggested, consider chamfering some of your corners and try using a few more 45 degree angles. I know you are trying to keep things simple for gameplay reasons, but I think you can get away with adding a bit more detail without sacrificing that. To smooth out the transitions, try making a more thorough use of trims. For reference have a look around Tram, there's some really excellent use of trims there that it's really worth taking some inspiration from.
Now let's make it constructive. Take that screenshot, open it up in paint, draw on it what you would like me to do. Any props or texture changes please reference them from the Spark editor by name (make them in the editor & copy/paste dir's). Any architecture changes, just draw them and explain best as possible. I'd leave out any minor height changes to the floor, as the 2/4 unit raising and bevelling will be done very late on.
I'll give any suggestions you have a good look through and consideration before issuing any final changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, if you're not looking for criticism then don't ask for it. If you are, learn to take it.
What you've basically asked me to do is design your map for you, the onus is not on me to provide you with blueprints for map design, if I were to do that then I might as well make my own map and take all the praise. Again, if you can't take criticism, don't ask for it.
And I'm sorry if you feel that way Zuriki, there's a fine line between "It's dull" and "it's dull because, so here's how you help". I think Insane did a pretty good job at helping though so thanks.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Qv4NX.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Although the way the floor grating that the player is standing on moves into the perpendicular metal grating seems a little awkward to me.<img src="http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd440/Heroman117/ns2_hallwayfeedback.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Either way it all reminds me of the original NS maps.
There are current lacking texture sets, a lot of the trims and the bevelling hasn't been done. The lighting, is basic, by that I mean, I like the look of it but it will need revisited nearer the end to establish more atmosphere. It's so I don't spend forever on one area but also so I don't build a greybox map lacking character and direction.
My ethos is more on architecture and geometry than props right now. I like the feel of NS1 maps, in particular lab environments like Eclipse and the that little part of Nothing for example. I know NS is inherently dirty and grunge, however the clean lab setting was probably the most popular in NS1 and had a clearer more concise theme.
The map itself is going to be a research lab, so unless there are more lab-like props coming or someone else builds them for me, I will have to go down the route of creating areas which won't be as purposeful as the official maps such as Tram and Mineshaft for example. However I don't believe having the purpose for a room actually makes the game any more enjoyable, sure it's awesome to look at but as a competitive game player, an okay looking scene with better gameplay trumps an awesome looking scene that plays like a dog taking a dump.
I guess there are several ways to envision a map. Either you go for the minimum with easy to defend areas, or you go for a lot of points but harder to defend. What I don't like about the first, is each time you play the map, it will be the same linear approach of each team moving towards each other. The map is like a funnel. In the second option the team can make choices and has to be aware of where the other team is focusing its efforts. The map is like a field. For pub play, option 1 may be better because of the certain absence of strategy, it is more like a deathmatch map having rts elements when talking about NS. Option 2 needs a more coherent team, needs people to be aware of the map, several strategies and a basic knowledge of the art of war and is closer to an rts experience.
In the end, I think it is best for NS2 to have a wide variety of maps with different challenges. UWE brings the core experience and the community can bring things that are more experimental. If every map follows a four extent layout, with a center piece, they will all play the same, and then people confuse gameplay with environment. A lesson from siege maps or 'iceworld' shows that if gameplay is good and the game well designed, then you don't even really need a designed map. If the maps have to have a specific layout and form and the game is designed to be that way, you could get rid of the rts elements and it won't change much (combat?).
UWE takles a very difficult challenge in merging fps and rts. For this to really work, the game has to be fun on any type of map, from large to small, dense to scarce, meaning that the game is designed without the environment established forefront. Then, each map provides a situation for the play to happen and players have to learn how to make best use of what the environment gives them.
Honestly, if NS2 is not fun on all sorts of maps, then I think UWE has failed its vision to merge rts and fps.
I didn't really had the occasion to play your map, so I can't say much, but I heard it was hard for marines. I would like it if popular server (hbz) could change the map once in a while (map testing week-end?).
a few too many leading lines. either the floor or the lower walls need a texture without lines.
I don't currently have one fully made out. I just have a basic RT/tech point scribble. Which is symmetric and will see a tech point very close to both starting areas to make a quick expansion. Currently 6 tech points planned, I want to see Tier 3 v Tier 3 on a map.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/K9fNM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Conduit access, located off the last corridor, to the left of that screenshot someone has quoted above.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/JU7Pr.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/mkCLW.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/0DKAV.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/bHVsG.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/lN1nN.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
One thing I would say, is that you have to make sure that aliens have some proper ambush spots.
It looks very open so far. But it's a work in progress, so keep on going.
<!--quoteo(post=1884491:date=Nov 9 2011, 11:52 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 9 2011, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In response to layout,
I don't currently have one fully made out. I just have a basic RT/tech point scribble. Which is symmetric and will see a tech point very close to both starting areas to make a quick expansion. Currently 6 tech points planned, I want to see Tier 3 v Tier 3 on a map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you might know, or might not know, marines don't need tech points to advance in tech anymore. Only aliens.
I would suggest 5 tech points for the current gameplay.
Also I think you should be careful putting a tech point too close to alien start, it would become too easy to defend. And you would rarely see the hive taken down. And a tech point near marine start is useless for both marines and aliens.
I would also like to see you try not to make it completely symmetrical, alá veil?
I have thought about conduit access being rather large and close to the static MS, which will need a quicker expansion so I made it in to a tech point. Also added atmospherics.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/dy9VG.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/669tM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NJIDv.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Qv4NX.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You've done the roofs well too...attractive and there's space for aliens. Some higher spaces wouldn't go amiss.
These stacked 'servers' look fantastic and the floor in that room is awesome too <a href="http://i.imgur.com/NJIDv.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/NJIDv.jpg</a>
Negative: some rooms don't look too well put together, like this one <a href="http://i.imgur.com/JU7Pr.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/JU7Pr.jpg</a> the floor and walls dont fit well together, kinda looks like patchwork
There are more spaces to hide later on, the rooms are designed for marine/alien biased and flow around the level to make a smooth transition between the two. As you can see at the moment there's the more marine biased areas with a beginning transition.
EDIT:
Here's a "so far" top down,
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/cp4wv.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />