<!--quoteo(post=1875821:date=Sep 20 2011, 01:11 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 20 2011, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You fix one issue by creating a new one. Your suggestion basically turns shotgun spikes into rapid fire spikes but with burst damage instead of continuous damage. Slightly less useless while maneuvering out of accurate marine fire, but still useless enough that you're turning the Lerk into a pure support class. Lerks need a way to deal high damage in a short period of time to a single target (which you've excluded by adding a cap to the damage to single targets) to be useful in combat against marine weapons.
Besides, another way to deal damage to several marines at once isn't even needed because we already have spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I never said it was a good idea, but it's the only one so far :x
Also, no, it wouldn't be rapid fire spikes, the attack would work exactly the same way it does now, but just be suited for hitting multiple marines rather than a single one (Which is what the primary attack is for).
Primary -> Rapid fire for individual rines Alternate -> <ul><li>Current usage: Close range high damage tool for killing marines nearly instantly.</li><li>My Idea: Single shot, shotgun which hits multiple marines.</li></ul> Spore -> Smoke screen with minimal damage to rines, used for area control (movement of rines, blocking line of sight, supporting team)
I hope this illustrates the differences in Lerk attacks and their usages.
<!--quoteo(post=1875835:date=Sep 20 2011, 01:24 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Sep 20 2011, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, no, it wouldn't be rapid fire spikes, the attack would work exactly the same way it does now, but just be suited for hitting multiple marines rather than a single one (Which is what the primary attack is for).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've always thought the opposite, that one should use the rapid fire attack for hitting a bit of everyone while flying by, and timing the spike-shotgun on a single marine when you want to focus on one target.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1875835:date=Sep 20 2011, 06:24 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Sep 20 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I never said it was a good idea, but it's the only one so far :x
Also, no, it wouldn't be rapid fire spikes, the attack would work exactly the same way it does now, but just be suited for hitting multiple marines rather than a single one (Which is what the primary attack is for).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We've had several ideas so far. The theoretically best solution would simply be to either give it a huge spread or a very short damage falloff. There's no reason to limit its efficiency against single targets. As we've been over repeatedly now, rapid fire spikes will be useless once server and client performance is improved. I will agree that damage should be lowered though. It should take three hits to kill an A0 marine, maybe even 4 but then the alien attack upgrade would have to apply to the lerk as well to make it scale into the mid game.
The reason the current shotgun spikes are perceived as overpowered is because: 1. The range is too long. 2. The damage is too high against A0 marines. 3. The Lerk doesn't really take any big risks doing it because marines can't connect shots reliably.
The assassination critique seems a bit ill founded (except for the cloaking use which I agree is awful, but the fade also has that same issue with secondary fire). Checking your six every once in a while and positioning yourself so that you don't have any blind spots while building isn't exactly a high requirement for a space horror themed game like NS2.
The current optimal usage of lerk shotgun is close range, and high damage. It's OP because of how certain players not only realized this, but learned to combine this attack with another alien ability giving lerk at least one free kill whenever it wants (usually two, hehehe). This one free kill is the reason Swalk made this thread, and is also why if there is no damage cut off, it will remain to be exploited in this manner. This is the crux of the thread, and everything else is besides the point.
As for what you've smasher, I do not think shotgun should be rapid fire? I don't see how that would work.
As for Fanatic, your theoretical best solution has a huge overlap with mine, are you sure you're not just not seeing it because you're upset with me?
Anyways, this thread is going in a bad direction, good luck to those of you that will flame it out.
<!--quoteo(post=1875847:date=Sep 20 2011, 01:48 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Sep 20 2011, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for what you've smasher, I do not think shotgun should be rapid fire? I don't see how that would work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the rapid fire attack does spread out quite a bit when used at medium range, I believe it's the same as the shotgun's spread actually. The reason for using rapid fire when you want to hit multiple targets is, that you spray the spikes over all of them when flying by (duh). Shotgun will only hit one, then you'll fly by the other and maybe hit the 4th marine waddeling in the back of the squad. Sure, it's more focused, but that's my point. There's no need for the shotgun to be even weaker..
Also, no one has commented on my simple suggestion of a small CD? Just to prevet the spamming of it, making people use it while flying by/swooping down - rather than just fly up in a marine's ass and double-shot-kill him before he can react.
small CD would: Make it used more tactically Not nerf opportunistic killing Nerf the PB double-shot-kill a bit so the marines have time to react.. Force the Lerk to be more mobile to survive, a Lerk should always stay mobile..
Any real counter arguments, or other suggestions that won't nerf the effectiveness (only the method of delivery)?
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1875843:date=Sep 20 2011, 05:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 20 2011, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The assassination critique seems a bit ill founded (except for the cloaking use which I agree is awful, but the fade also has that same issue with secondary fire). Checking your six every once in a while and positioning yourself so that you don't have any blind spots while building isn't exactly a high requirement for a space horror themed game like NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really ill founded, because it's true. And the fade's secondary fire isn't the same issue, more like an opposite issue. Lerks can fly around you while shotgun spiking you, fades are stationary when they use their 2nd attack. Which makes it quite useless. And yes, Cloak, the activated ability on the Shade, really needs to be changed. That second statement is more likely ill founded. Positioning and checking your six is important in NS2. Seems to me like you haven't played the game much. Yet you make untrue statements like that last one.
As for you Smasher; If you fly by marines and try to put normal spikes into them while doing so, you're most likely dead before they are. With the current lerk I can pretty easily pick off one guy out of a group of marines without losing too much health with these shotgun spikes. But right now it is possible to pick off two of them in the early game right now, before you have to think about adrenaline.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
Honestly the lerk should stay as it is for now. If anything the tweaks to the lerk should come later in the game when more content is released and the performance issues are resolved. I've played NS1 for years and know that a good lerk can easily keep marines at bay for a good portion of the beginning of the round just by picking off rogue marines or a small pack (2-3), but as soon as marines tech up it becomes harder and harder to be an active lerk without getting shotgunned in the face/around corners/etc or torn to shreds with weapon upgrades.
It's too early to make changes such as this until we see what UWE has to offer in later update releases.
lerks shotgun spikes needs to be removed, lerk bite needs to be added back. At the same range you will be using lerk shotgun you might as well be biting the marine.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1875950:date=Sep 20 2011, 10:34 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Sep 20 2011, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly the lerk should stay as it is for now. If anything the tweaks to the lerk should come later in the game when more content is released and the performance issues are resolved. I've played NS1 for years and know that a good lerk can easily keep marines at bay for a good portion of the beginning of the round just by picking off rogue marines or a small pack (2-3), but as soon as marines tech up it becomes harder and harder to be an active lerk without getting shotgunned in the face/around corners/etc or torn to shreds with weapon upgrades.
It's too early to make changes such as this until we see what UWE has to offer in later update releases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly, it is not too early to balance the shotgun spikes vs marines. More game content will not help this problem in any way.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Considering that most of the tech trees for both sides have holes so you'll only only putting in balance checks in the next update. Then after that people will complain about something else on the lerk that it's too OP = vicious cycle. I'd rather have the balance tweaks come closer towards the last quarter of updates just so that you have majority of the game content to work with.
I bet the current lerk is no match for a JP/SG or a combination like that at a later date with the same stats.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1875996:date=Sep 21 2011, 12:40 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Sep 21 2011, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that most of the tech trees for both sides have holes so you'll only only putting in balance checks in the next update. Then after that people will complain about something else on the lerk that it's too OP = vicious cycle. I'd rather have the balance tweaks come closer towards the last quarter of updates just so that you have majority of the game content to work with.
I bet the current lerk is no match for a JP/SG or a combination like that at a later date with the same stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not just me complaining randomly that I think the lerk shotgun spikes are OP. I've tested them alot, and they are overpowered at the moment. You can kill two marines in like one second in the early game. New game content isn't going to change that. I'm not complaining, I'm bugreporting.
<!--quoteo(post=1876097:date=Sep 21 2011, 01:43 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 21 2011, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many bites did it take for a ns1 lerk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2-3 most of the time, depending on the armor. On a quick calculation it might even take 4 if you fail to spore against armor 1, one parasite or tick of spore should negate that though (200 HP vs 195 damage from 3 bites, someone correct me if I got the bite damage wrong).
It's a completely different game though. The flight model is smoother and there isn't even half that much marine weaponry, shotguns in particular shut down lerks from getting too close.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1876097:date=Sep 21 2011, 01:43 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 21 2011, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many bites did it take for a ns1 lerk?
The shotgun spikes, are kinda like bite(since you need to get very close) - just that you can only shoot ~4? spikes before out of energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They are not at all like bite, and you cant really compare them with bite. Shotgun spikes can kill a shotgunner outside his deadly range before he can do much about it. You don't need to get as close as I do in the video.
<!--quoteo(post=1876100:date=Sep 21 2011, 04:05 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 21 2011, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2-3 most of the time, depending on the armor. On a quick calculation it might even take 4 if you fail to spore against armor 1, one parasite or tick of spore should negate that though (200 HP vs 195 damage from 3 bites, someone correct me if I got the bite damage wrong).
It's a completely different game though. The flight model is smoother and there isn't even half that much marine weaponry, shotguns in particular shut down lerks from getting too close.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I assumed it was 50 damage per bite and slightly faster than skulk's.
<!--quoteo(post=1876140:date=Sep 21 2011, 06:42 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 21 2011, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I assumed it was 50 damage per bite and slightly faster than skulk's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could be, although my guess is at least 55 or 60. Lerk is the one thing in NS I don't really feel comfortable and I can't run NS right now to check it though.
I think the lurk’s shotgun is fine. I did a test on LAN and the results are, face to face with a marine with a rifle, the marine has the advantage. The further the distance the bigger the marine’s advantage. The lurk is easy to kill on the ground. The best way to stay alive is to be in flight or on the ground for only a short time. What is somewhat successful is to fly over with spore, drop down and shoot spike shotgun while hidden in the cloud.
How about increase lerk spikes firing speed to be on par with marine rifle (or faster) then re-add the lerk sniper. The rapid fire would help at close quarters so there is no need for boomstick lerk and aim is required. The sniper reinforces the role of being a support class rather then get up and blow them away with shotgun spikes.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1876148:date=Sep 21 2011, 06:36 PM:name=1stToast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1stToast @ Sep 21 2011, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the lurk’s shotgun is fine. I did a test on LAN and the results are, face to face with a marine with a rifle, the marine has the advantage. The further the distance the bigger the marine’s advantage. The lurk is easy to kill on the ground. The best way to stay alive is to be in flight or on the ground for only a short time. What is somewhat successful is to fly over with spore, drop down and shoot spike shotgun while hidden in the cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about how good players are compared with each other, I am worried about the strength and cooldown on this ability. Yes, a lerk sitting on the ground next to you is easy kill, but not if the lerk is flying above you, shotgun spiking you. Then you're most likely dead, especially if you have a shotgun. Because you can't do any significant damage at the range the lerk needs to be in to shotgun spike you, unless you pull the pistol, which is very slow.
<!--quoteo(post=1876150:date=Sep 21 2011, 07:10 PM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Sep 21 2011, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about increase lerk spikes firing speed to be on par with marine rifle (or faster) then re-add the lerk sniper. The rapid fire would help at close quarters so there is no need for boomstick lerk and aim is required. The sniper reinforces the role of being a support class rather then get up and blow them away with shotgun spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why speed up primary spikes again? They are working fine, and they should not be more powerful than the rifle. I don't think the lerk sniper approach was very fun to play. Lerks didn't need to take any risks. Only use primary spikes on buildings and to finish off a very low marine. You will most likely die if you try to go up against several marines with primary spikes only.
right now how the beta is we are in the phase of testing only mid game and beginning game classes so balancing the lerk spike shotgun would be nice im still not sure what way it should go as i dont use it my self too much.
Comments
Besides, another way to deal damage to several marines at once isn't even needed because we already have spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I never said it was a good idea, but it's the only one so far :x
Also, no, it wouldn't be rapid fire spikes, the attack would work exactly the same way it does now, but just be suited for hitting multiple marines rather than a single one (Which is what the primary attack is for).
Primary -> Rapid fire for individual rines
Alternate -> <ul><li>Current usage: Close range high damage tool for killing marines nearly instantly.</li><li>My Idea: Single shot, shotgun which hits multiple marines.</li></ul>
Spore -> Smoke screen with minimal damage to rines, used for area control (movement of rines, blocking line of sight, supporting team)
I hope this illustrates the differences in Lerk attacks and their usages.
I've always thought the opposite, that one should use the rapid fire attack for hitting a bit of everyone while flying by, and timing the spike-shotgun on a single marine when you want to focus on one target.
Also, no, it wouldn't be rapid fire spikes, the attack would work exactly the same way it does now, but just be suited for hitting multiple marines rather than a single one (Which is what the primary attack is for).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've had several ideas so far. The theoretically best solution would simply be to either give it a huge spread or a very short damage falloff. There's no reason to limit its efficiency against single targets. As we've been over repeatedly now, rapid fire spikes will be useless once server and client performance is improved. I will agree that damage should be lowered though. It should take three hits to kill an A0 marine, maybe even 4 but then the alien attack upgrade would have to apply to the lerk as well to make it scale into the mid game.
The reason the current shotgun spikes are perceived as overpowered is because:
1. The range is too long.
2. The damage is too high against A0 marines.
3. The Lerk doesn't really take any big risks doing it because marines can't connect shots reliably.
The assassination critique seems a bit ill founded (except for the cloaking use which I agree is awful, but the fade also has that same issue with secondary fire). Checking your six every once in a while and positioning yourself so that you don't have any blind spots while building isn't exactly a high requirement for a space horror themed game like NS2.
As for what you've smasher, I do not think shotgun should be rapid fire? I don't see how that would work.
As for Fanatic, your theoretical best solution has a huge overlap with mine, are you sure you're not just not seeing it because you're upset with me?
Anyways, this thread is going in a bad direction, good luck to those of you that will flame it out.
Well, the rapid fire attack does spread out quite a bit when used at medium range, I believe it's the same as the shotgun's spread actually.
The reason for using rapid fire when you want to hit multiple targets is, that you spray the spikes over all of them when flying by (duh). Shotgun will only hit one, then you'll fly by the other and maybe hit the 4th marine waddeling in the back of the squad. Sure, it's more focused, but that's my point. There's no need for the shotgun to be even weaker..
Also, no one has commented on my simple suggestion of a small CD?
Just to prevet the spamming of it, making people use it while flying by/swooping down - rather than just fly up in a marine's ass and double-shot-kill him before he can react.
small CD would:
Make it used more tactically
Not nerf opportunistic killing
Nerf the PB double-shot-kill a bit so the marines have time to react..
Force the Lerk to be more mobile to survive, a Lerk should always stay mobile..
Any real counter arguments, or other suggestions that won't nerf the effectiveness (only the method of delivery)?
Not really ill founded, because it's true.
And the fade's secondary fire isn't the same issue, more like an opposite issue.
Lerks can fly around you while shotgun spiking you, fades are stationary when they use their 2nd attack. Which makes it quite useless.
And yes, Cloak, the activated ability on the Shade, really needs to be changed.
That second statement is more likely ill founded. Positioning and checking your six is important in NS2.
Seems to me like you haven't played the game much. Yet you make untrue statements like that last one.
As for you Smasher;
If you fly by marines and try to put normal spikes into them while doing so, you're most likely dead before they are.
With the current lerk I can pretty easily pick off one guy out of a group of marines without losing too much health with these shotgun spikes.
But right now it is possible to pick off two of them in the early game right now, before you have to think about adrenaline.
It's too early to make changes such as this until we see what UWE has to offer in later update releases.
It's too early to make changes such as this until we see what UWE has to offer in later update releases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, it is not too early to balance the shotgun spikes vs marines.
More game content will not help this problem in any way.
I bet the current lerk is no match for a JP/SG or a combination like that at a later date with the same stats.
I bet the current lerk is no match for a JP/SG or a combination like that at a later date with the same stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not just me complaining randomly that I think the lerk shotgun spikes are OP.
I've tested them alot, and they are overpowered at the moment. You can kill two marines in like one second in the early game.
New game content isn't going to change that.
I'm not complaining, I'm bugreporting.
The shotgun spikes, are kinda like bite(since you need to get very close) - just that you can only shoot ~4? spikes before out of energy.
2-3 most of the time, depending on the armor. On a quick calculation it might even take 4 if you fail to spore against armor 1, one parasite or tick of spore should negate that though (200 HP vs 195 damage from 3 bites, someone correct me if I got the bite damage wrong).
It's a completely different game though. The flight model is smoother and there isn't even half that much marine weaponry, shotguns in particular shut down lerks from getting too close.
The shotgun spikes, are kinda like bite(since you need to get very close) - just that you can only shoot ~4? spikes before out of energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are not at all like bite, and you cant really compare them with bite.
Shotgun spikes can kill a shotgunner outside his deadly range before he can do much about it.
You don't need to get as close as I do in the video.
It's a completely different game though. The flight model is smoother and there isn't even half that much marine weaponry, shotguns in particular shut down lerks from getting too close.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assumed it was 50 damage per bite and slightly faster than skulk's.
Could be, although my guess is at least 55 or 60. Lerk is the one thing in NS I don't really feel comfortable and I can't run NS right now to check it though.
The further the distance the bigger the marine’s advantage. The lurk is easy to kill on the ground. The best way to stay alive is to be in flight or on the ground for only a short time. What is somewhat successful is to fly over with spore, drop down and shoot spike shotgun while hidden in the cloud.
The further the distance the bigger the marine’s advantage. The lurk is easy to kill on the ground. The best way to stay alive is to be in flight or on the ground for only a short time. What is somewhat successful is to fly over with spore, drop down and shoot spike shotgun while hidden in the cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about how good players are compared with each other, I am worried about the strength and cooldown on this ability.
Yes, a lerk sitting on the ground next to you is easy kill, but not if the lerk is flying above you, shotgun spiking you.
Then you're most likely dead, especially if you have a shotgun.
Because you can't do any significant damage at the range the lerk needs to be in to shotgun spike you, unless you pull the pistol, which is very slow.
<!--quoteo(post=1876150:date=Sep 21 2011, 07:10 PM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Sep 21 2011, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about increase lerk spikes firing speed to be on par with marine rifle (or faster) then re-add the lerk sniper. The rapid fire would help at close quarters so there is no need for boomstick lerk and aim is required. The sniper reinforces the role of being a support class rather then get up and blow them away with shotgun spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why speed up primary spikes again? They are working fine, and they should not be more powerful than the rifle.
I don't think the lerk sniper approach was very fun to play. Lerks didn't need to take any risks.
Only use primary spikes on buildings and to finish off a very low marine.
You will most likely die if you try to go up against several marines with primary spikes only.