<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Update to Tournament Timing!</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Build 188 is looking like it might take a few more days to put out, due to 186 taking longer than expected. Therefore, to increase the chance that 188 (and all it's new features!) will be ready for Round 1 of the tournament, I'm going to push the start date back to November 4.
I understand this may disrupt people's ability to play. If your new match time presents problems, let me know and we'll work together to find a time that works :).
Look out for an updated timetable and new google calendar invites (Team captains check your inboxes!) very soon.
SkymanderXGreen Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green.Join Date: 2011-07-29Member: 113006Members
I like it! sounds good to me, it will make the games more interesting. haha just whatch out for secret cross the map tunnels for UWE to use secretly :p
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The rules still need to be fleshed out a little better.
What happens if teams just keep swapping alien wins (which is highly likely in the current builds)? How will a victor be decided if no team wins two in a row in the allotted casting time?
When you say only 1 player may be substituted, does that mean instance per match, or one person per match. For example, if you have 7 on your team and would like one player to play all the alien rounds and the other all the marine, is that ok?
If the balance is not fixed then you would need some judges that decide which team won after two games, like in ice skating or so. You could use some metrics like how much time the marines resisted, or how many rts they could hold, if the movements and coordination were elegant, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1879441:date=Oct 11 2011, 08:28 PM:name=SkymanderX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SkymanderX @ Oct 11 2011, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i doubt that judges will be put in place, what would they judge? style?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, many sports works like that and if aliens have >90% win rate (what I observe in scrims, I don't know if you guys have a different experience) there is not much other solution.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1879244:date=Oct 10 2011, 09:35 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Oct 10 2011, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rules still need to be fleshed out a little better.
What happens if teams just keep swapping alien wins (which is highly likely in the current builds)? How will a victor be decided if no team wins two in a row in the allotted casting time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The two most obvious, non coinflip ways are either by total victory time, where the team with the quickest victories is declared the winner, or by total score, where the team with the largest sum of the individual player scores is declared the winner. Neither way is perfect, but they are objective and can be easily determined from the recorded videos/screenshots of the final scoreboards. Much better than the alternatives imo.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1879574:date=Oct 12 2011, 12:15 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 12 2011, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The two most obvious, non coinflip ways are either by total victory time, where the team with the quickest victories is declared the winner, or by total score, where the team with the largest sum of the individual player scores is declared the winner. Neither way is perfect, but they are objective and can be easily determined from the recorded videos/screenshots of the final scoreboards. Much better than the alternatives imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, neither of those really support what the true objective of each round is (winning). If you choose largest score/kills, teams seeing they are likely going to go to a tiebreaker, can intentionally pad their scores in the alien rounds by taking a long time to win (thus accumulating more kills/score). While on marine, they can pad their score by needlessly killing eggs/cysts that they otherwise wouldn't care about. Victory time is a little more fair in that sense, but now you bring in an objective (time) that is never really part of normal gameplay.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1879597:date=Oct 12 2011, 02:43 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Oct 12 2011, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, neither of those really support what the true objective of each round is (winning). If you choose largest score/kills, teams seeing they are likely going to go to a tiebreaker, can intentionally pad their scores in the alien rounds by taking a long time to win (thus accumulating more kills/score). While on marine, they can pad their score by needlessly killing eggs/cysts that they otherwise wouldn't care about. Victory time is a little more fair in that sense, but now you bring in an objective (time) that is never really part of normal gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both fair points, but I don't see a better alternative. The only other options I've seen suggested are a coin-flip by Hugh or based on judges using vague and subjective criteria, which are both much worse than what I've suggested imo.
Keep up this discussion guys, I am intently following as I try to formulate rules to deal with balance issues.
Inversion and Anagram, I have moved your match time in the google calendar. Updates to the spreadsheet and raw data to follow. Please let me know if this new time is ok.
Any teams that would like me to do a recruitment drive for you, please send me a steam group, and preferably a team icon/picture.
I'm just brainstorming here, but what do you think about this idea?
Every match consists of two or four games. If there's a tie after the first two games, two more games will be played. If there's still a tie after four games, the winner is the team who won the game faster on the latter pair of games.
I think this has a few advantages to some of the proposed models. For example, the problem of deciding the winner by how long it takes to win is that there will be a new rule that dramatically changes how the game is played. In this model at least half of the games would be played like any other clan match which is, in my opinion, more interesting to watch and play because it offers a wider selection of strategies for the teams (i.e. rushing the marine base early isn't the only option). The model is also more balanced than best out of three, deciding the sides for the third game by coin toss because both teams will play the same number of games on aliens and marines. The problem with two wins in a row model is that it usually takes forever to finish a match. If there are only four games per match, it might be possible for NS2HD to cast every game.
The obvious problem with the model is that most games will still end the same - two wins for aliens, then two wins for aliens and the team with faster and better early rush wins. But at least it will offer some normal NS2 gameplay without extra rules, be easy and fair to judge, be fair for all teams without random factors and it won't take too long to play. It also works even if there is a patch that shifts the balance to whatever direction.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
In that case, it just would come down to who can turret farm and delay defeat the longest. Not very optimal. The best way would be to just keep playing even if it took 50 rounds, but obviously NS2HD wouldn't go for that. I really can't think of a good way to handle it. One way is to switch to a group play format and allow ties in group play (similar to how the soccer world cup works). Outside of group play, you'd play to the bitter end, no matter how many rounds it takes. But I think group play has already been rejected.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
Every match consists of two or four games. If there's a tie after the first two games, two more games will be played. If there's still a tie after four games, the teams will play a fifth round to decide the winner. Sides for the fifth round will be decided by a coin toss.
The only remotely sane option. Still pretty unfair, but it is what it is.
Addendum: In cross continental matches it makes sense to change servers after the first two games have been played. For the fifth round, the winner of the coin toss should get to pick between choosing sides or choosing servers.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1879706:date=Oct 13 2011, 08:58 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Oct 13 2011, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In that case, it just would come down to who can turret farm and delay defeat the longest. Not very optimal. The best way would be to just keep playing even if it took 50 rounds, but obviously NS2HD wouldn't go for that. I really can't think of a good way to handle it. One way is to switch to a group play format and allow ties in group play (similar to how the soccer world cup works). Outside of group play, you'd play to the bitter end, no matter how many rounds it takes. But I think group play has already been rejected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're correct that the ideal option would be playing till the bitter end, but due to practical considerations and Hugh's sanity we'd never be able to do it. I think we'll just have to settle for a tiebreaking options that either 1) biases gameplay via some external rule (quickest win time, highest score) or 2) incorporates random chance (coin-flip to break ties or coin-flip to determine sides/servers for the tie-breaking match).
I like the 5th tie-breaking match idea, seems like the only viable option at this point in the game. edit. Again this almost seems redundant, if the teams seem even by the casters(judge/judges) however it's done, maybe the tie-breaker should be 3rd round, otherwise your going to hate yourself by the end of this tournament Hugh.
Clan #156 has occasionally used some internal rules to avoid the massive end-game stalemate problem. They've worked pretty good, so I'll throw them out as options. I'd only see them kicking in when playing the 2 tiebreaker games:
1) Max three turrets per powered area (area covered by a power node). No turrets in unpowered areas such as hallways. (Essentially: Power packs can be used for other things, but not for turrets.)
2) Mercy rule: If marines have 1 RT or less for 10 consecutive mins, aliens win immediately.
The turret rule I agree with, and I'm pretty sure Hugh is going to implement that anyway since most servers have a turret spam script included with a wireframe/unlit script. Not too sure about the RT rule as it's all speculative on the talent of the marines, the strategy of the aliens and how it unfolded, 10 minutes is pretty significant tho.
SkymanderXGreen Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green.Join Date: 2011-07-29Member: 113006Members
I know i'm going to get some heat for this but I think that as it is now, ( in the beta) there should be no special rules against sentries. I know that it prolongs the games but i strongly feel that if a marine team can hold on for long enough, and repell the aliens back slowly. they can win. And sentries are part of that. Once marines start to get enough tec. from surviving long enough, they deserve the right to set up defensive turrets. If the aliens didn't take them out before they had those. Shame on them. Essentailly there is a turret limit anyway because if you have too many, you'll get a "too many entities" message for one area.
What we are seeing is that people quit or get mad at mid-late game sentry spam because its honestly frustrating for aliens, geting so close to winning then not being able to because of NPC turrets. But once marines survive long enough to get those, AND THEY START TO FIGHT OF THE ALIENS, then we see the effective use of arcs, and phase gates and team work.
I played in a game yesterday that lasted 2 hours as the marines but it was easily the funnest game i've played. the marines were working together and as they should be got pushed back in the early game. We went aggressively for and extractor in heli and a phase there, both of which we lost do to lack of mobility. Then we got pushed out of DC and Vent and only held ms extractor for a little before getting FC back up. After that we began to get gls and turrets to protect phasegates we had and constant marines start suicide attacks. then we got some more extractors and armor and weapon upgrades and gained territory. With the use of arcs we were able to win.
It took forever but it was never a "lets see how many sentries we can drop" game because we didn't have enough res for spam. What we really needed were armor and weapon upgrades because they helped us win 2v1 battles and such. I just feel thats how the games are meant to be played out with room for other tactics that are more extreme like rushes and double hive drops and all that stuff.
Like i said i know it takes a long time and for the point of the beta i suppose we could implement time limits but i just wanted to through this out there to give some food for thought. If marines aren't pushed all the way back to marine start early on, and begin to upgrade to there superior tec. and use their superior knowledge and weapons, then they should win. Period.
It's true that marine can win sometimes with such play, but I find it very boring. If the goal of the tournament is to show that the game is fun and can be played seriously then we should avoid to have too much of it I think.
I do agree with you Skymander, but I fear my limited casting times will mean some sort of sentry restriction is required. In my gut I know that the best marine teams don't drop sentries until the mid game, and even then only sparingly. But I can't risk matches that go on forever because teams want to 'lock down and break out.'
I was playing with the GP and D|S Loveshack sentries script. I found out the best combo to make balanced and so you cant spam was 3 sent. at a range of 40. I recommend all servers try this setting. Pretty much i played with it to force sents only to be built at main base, vent, flight, heli, dc, rc, crev. It ended up working very well. Then it all comes down to proper placement. Try it guys and let me know what you think.
One idea I have regarding the points its lets give point per win. So if the Marines win they get 2 Points (because it is harder to win). And make the points for the Aliens variable on the time they needed to win.
Aliens
- 0-15 min 1.5 Points - more than 15min 1 Point
Marines
-0-30 min 2 Points - more than 30 min 1.5 Points
The numbers and times are just an example we could just simplify it by giving the marines 1.1 Points per win.
The time should be implemented. I can't see something better to determine a winner of a game (It could be 50 games and it is even) when 1 Race is way easyier to win it.
Comments
Build 188 is looking like it might take a few more days to put out, due to 186 taking longer than expected. Therefore, to increase the chance that 188 (and all it's new features!) will be ready for Round 1 of the tournament, I'm going to push the start date back to November 4.
I understand this may disrupt people's ability to play. If your new match time presents problems, let me know and we'll work together to find a time that works :).
Look out for an updated timetable and new google calendar invites (Team captains check your inboxes!) very soon.
Peace all!
at the minimum I would love to watch the title round.
good luck everyone.
What happens if teams just keep swapping alien wins (which is highly likely in the current builds)? How will a victor be decided if no team wins two in a row in the allotted casting time?
When you say only 1 player may be substituted, does that mean instance per match, or one person per match. For example, if you have 7 on your team and would like one player to play all the alien rounds and the other all the marine, is that ok?
And yes Kingmob - all matches will be cast on YouTube!
Style, Presentation, and Creativity
Edit: How does one contact the leader of this... unknown worlds entertainment team?
What happens if teams just keep swapping alien wins (which is highly likely in the current builds)? How will a victor be decided if no team wins two in a row in the allotted casting time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The two most obvious, non coinflip ways are either by total victory time, where the team with the quickest victories is declared the winner, or by total score, where the team with the largest sum of the individual player scores is declared the winner. Neither way is perfect, but they are objective and can be easily determined from the recorded videos/screenshots of the final scoreboards. Much better than the alternatives imo.
Well, neither of those really support what the true objective of each round is (winning). If you choose largest score/kills, teams seeing they are likely going to go to a tiebreaker, can intentionally pad their scores in the alien rounds by taking a long time to win (thus accumulating more kills/score). While on marine, they can pad their score by needlessly killing eggs/cysts that they otherwise wouldn't care about. Victory time is a little more fair in that sense, but now you bring in an objective (time) that is never really part of normal gameplay.
Both fair points, but I don't see a better alternative. The only other options I've seen suggested are a coin-flip by Hugh or based on judges using vague and subjective criteria, which are both much worse than what I've suggested imo.
Inversion and Anagram, I have moved your match time in the google calendar. Updates to the spreadsheet and raw data to follow. Please let me know if this new time is ok.
Any teams that would like me to do a recruitment drive for you, please send me a steam group, and preferably a team icon/picture.
Every match consists of two or four games. If there's a tie after the first two games, two more games will be played. If there's still a tie after four games, the winner is the team who won the game faster on the latter pair of games.
I think this has a few advantages to some of the proposed models. For example, the problem of deciding the winner by how long it takes to win is that there will be a new rule that dramatically changes how the game is played. In this model at least half of the games would be played like any other clan match which is, in my opinion, more interesting to watch and play because it offers a wider selection of strategies for the teams (i.e. rushing the marine base early isn't the only option). The model is also more balanced than best out of three, deciding the sides for the third game by coin toss because both teams will play the same number of games on aliens and marines. The problem with two wins in a row model is that it usually takes forever to finish a match. If there are only four games per match, it might be possible for NS2HD to cast every game.
The obvious problem with the model is that most games will still end the same - two wins for aliens, then two wins for aliens and the team with faster and better early rush wins. But at least it will offer some normal NS2 gameplay without extra rules, be easy and fair to judge, be fair for all teams without random factors and it won't take too long to play. It also works even if there is a patch that shifts the balance to whatever direction.
The only remotely sane option. Still pretty unfair, but it is what it is.
Addendum: In cross continental matches it makes sense to change servers after the first two games have been played. For the fifth round, the winner of the coin toss should get to pick between choosing sides or choosing servers.
You're correct that the ideal option would be playing till the bitter end, but due to practical considerations and Hugh's sanity we'd never be able to do it. I think we'll just have to settle for a tiebreaking options that either 1) biases gameplay via some external rule (quickest win time, highest score) or 2) incorporates random chance (coin-flip to break ties or coin-flip to determine sides/servers for the tie-breaking match).
edit. Again this almost seems redundant, if the teams seem even by the casters(judge/judges) however it's done, maybe the tie-breaker should be 3rd round, otherwise your going to hate yourself by the end of this tournament Hugh.
1) Max three turrets per powered area (area covered by a power node). No turrets in unpowered areas such as hallways. (Essentially: Power packs can be used for other things, but not for turrets.)
2) Mercy rule: If marines have 1 RT or less for 10 consecutive mins, aliens win immediately.
Not too sure about the RT rule as it's all speculative on the talent of the marines, the strategy of the aliens and how it unfolded, 10 minutes is pretty significant tho.
What we are seeing is that people quit or get mad at mid-late game sentry spam because its honestly frustrating for aliens, geting so close to winning then not being able to because of NPC turrets. But once marines survive long enough to get those, AND THEY START TO FIGHT OF THE ALIENS, then we see the effective use of arcs, and phase gates and team work.
I played in a game yesterday that lasted 2 hours as the marines but it was easily the funnest game i've played. the marines were working together and as they should be got pushed back in the early game. We went aggressively for and extractor in heli and a phase there, both of which we lost do to lack of mobility. Then we got pushed out of DC and Vent and only held ms extractor for a little before getting FC back up. After that we began to get gls and turrets to protect phasegates we had and constant marines start suicide attacks. then we got some more extractors and armor and weapon upgrades and gained territory. With the use of arcs we were able to win.
It took forever but it was never a "lets see how many sentries we can drop" game because we didn't have enough res for spam. What we really needed were armor and weapon upgrades because they helped us win 2v1 battles and such. I just feel thats how the games are meant to be played out with room for other tactics that are more extreme like rushes and double hive drops and all that stuff.
Like i said i know it takes a long time and for the point of the beta i suppose we could implement time limits but i just wanted to through this out there to give some food for thought. If marines aren't pushed all the way back to marine start early on, and begin to upgrade to there superior tec. and use their superior knowledge and weapons, then they should win. Period.
And make the points for the Aliens variable on the time they needed to win.
Aliens
- 0-15 min 1.5 Points
- more than 15min 1 Point
Marines
-0-30 min 2 Points
- more than 30 min 1.5 Points
The numbers and times are just an example we could just simplify it by giving the marines 1.1 Points per win.
The time should be implemented. I can't see something better to determine a winner of a game (It could be 50 games and it is even) when 1 Race is way easyier to win it.
I think the default of the script is set at 25. So change it to 40