<!--quoteo(post=1894659:date=Jan 15 2012, 04:51 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jan 15 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the NS1 method is probably the best - except with the option for the aliens to choose their starting hive. This feature has been called for since NS1 and it would open the game up to a huge range of strategies. Especially more so than the 'random guess, must choose a middle of the road strategy' mind set brought on by the completely randomised method we have atm!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well in NS1, you had the layout with equal timing to reach each hive (NS1 Mapping guidelines). It won't work 1:1 in NS2 when map layouts are different including 4+ hives. Personally I prefer fixed marine start and possibly aliens could choose their hive, or at least have minimum distance between the marines and aliens. NS1's random hives were annoying because you could end up with like Alpha in lost gg (that's what knife said). Even in veil, pipeline is really bad hive for aliens. Although I understand a bit of randomness increases the game versatility a bit, so its a tradeoff. However if the hives <i>are</i> equally balanced, teams should versatility by trying to pick the least expected hive (and tactics). Since we have no experience in hive choosing in NS1, its hard to say.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1895751:date=Jan 19 2012, 02:26 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Jan 19 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Earlier i didn't take part to this discussion because i know mappers already have all the tools needed to tweak the random spawns and I thought that tram and summit with random spawns was just to test the random spawns initially and would be disabled later. But now that i've read that pSyk0mAn and Flayra don't think there's a problem i have to say couple of words.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, tram and summit use random spawns to test that feature. They are the only maps played and it needs to be tested properly to get some feedback that can be used for the other offical maps in developement aswell. It doesn't mean that the issues in these maps won't be adressed eventually in which ever way. Random spawns adds so much to the map and game that it's worth trying to balance a map around it, although you guys are certainly right that it's more difficult to balance a map around it that wasn't designed with random spawns in mind. Anyway, you make some good points regarding summit and I appreciate the feedback. Thank you.
Also I never said I don't think there is a problem and Flayra's post obviously implies that issues will be adressed eventually. As you guys mentioned it's kinda fun for public play, that doesn't mean the competitive side will be ignored on that matter, although it seems some take it that way judging by comments like this:
<!--quoteo(post=1895765:date=Jan 19 2012, 04:12 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Jan 19 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not the only member of the competitive community slightly dismayed by the obvious lack in understanding of map related balance from the games creator and an official mapper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know you are very passionate about clan play and that is a good thing, but comments like this just lead to being ignored or taken less seriously, which would be a shame because every feedback is valuable.
<!--quoteo(post=1895386:date=Jan 17 2012, 08:10 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 17 2012, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe my suggestion wasn't clear, but the idea is that the mapper can specify any tech point, as many as he wants, as 'potential marine start' or 'potential alien start' or both.
So the game would choose a random start location for the marines from among those tech points marked as 'potential marine start', then a random start location for the aliens from among the remaining tech points marked as 'potential alien start'.
A mapper could do the classic NS thing and have only one marine start, and several potential alien starts. Or the mapper could have one marine start and one alien start. Or the mapper could have all the potential marine starts and potential alien starts be the same. Or some other configuration, it's up to them.
It can be dynamic, it can be static, it can be bits of both; it's up to the mapper's intentions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly how it works at the moment. It's all in the map.
It's clear that random start points tradeoff variety for balance. If every starting point was the same, no one would care. I don't WANT the starting points to be totally equal, I want them to change the game and force players to play differently.
You see this in Starcraft 2 where players are sometimes forced to play a different build than their comfortable with, or to all-in earlier than they'd want to (a recent Day9.tv broadcast on Lost Temple with Zerg in South and Terran in East comes to mind). Yes it's less balanced, but I think it adds so much to the game that it's worth it.
If competitive players don't like those random starts, it would be easy enough for us to release competitive versions of them with fixed starts (or you could just edit them yourselves, choosing whatever starts you want). I'd rather have a game that lots of people want to play and that needs some tweaks for competitive play, then a balanced, more sterile game that was having difficulty attracting a following.
<!--quoteo(post=1895337:date=Jan 18 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 18 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an extremely narrow-minded statement and leads to a very ill-conceived conclusion.
It's a wonder that you can ignore the importance of map design simply because of the natural respawn-time advantage. There is not a single respectable NS1 map (except maybe ns_caged?) that suffers from alien-biased vents in marine start. In fact, mappers overwhelmingly tend to remove any vents in map updates. Eclipse, veil, bast and ayumi (though unoffically in ayumi's case) have all been reworked to remove vents. This says a lot about the importance of vents and starting locations. It's quite absurd to claim that they just add flavour. In NS2, vents aren't limited to confining combat advantages to aliens which they do well enough as it is. It makes the already cheesy and powerful base-rush that much more of an option too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're going to get base rushed it'll work whether or not there is a vent, base rushes work by skulks killing all the marines and camping their spawn, the problem has nothing to do with map design and everything to do with marines having a slow, vulnerable, and incredibly telegraphed spawning system. Aliens aren't actually much better off. It's a problem really with the NS idea of bases providing map functions.
In other games, you spawn in a spawn room, which is deliberately kept off to the side because respawning is a kind of imperfect solution to the problem of dying in a multiplayer game. It works, but it has a lot of problems which you have to work around, and one of those is that it's incredibly disorienting and really easy to exploit as an attacker. Traditionally the solution is to put the spawn behind a one way door, or put instakill lasers in front of it, or put it miles away from the enemy spawn, or spread the spawns out over a large area so you can't camp all of them at once, or all of the above.
NS doesn't have spawn rooms, or any of the above countermeasures, in the marine case it doesn't even have conventional 'pop out of thin air randomly' spawning, it has a special machine that lights up and spins and makes whooshing noises and basically says HEY ALIENS A MARINE IS GOING TO SPAWN HERE before you spawn. Aliens get eggs, which are less obvious, but not really much better, and even then they still spawn around the hive as really weak skulks so they still aren't in a good position.
That's what causes baserushing, not vents, or any sort of map design.
If you want to solve it, personally I'd suggest starting the game for both sides with pre-placed defenses. Marines get a couple of sentries covering the IP and CC, aliens get a bunch of hydras dotted around the hive room. Good enough to hold off initial attacks, but as you expand the base and make new bases and RTs and the like, you also create weaknesses, and eventually the game evolves beyond simple sentries and hydras so they become irrelevant once the game gets going.
To be fair, most people who play SC2 prefer maps like Shakuras Plateau and Metalopolis (no close spawns) because they have random, but fair, starting points.
It's analogous to having distance between Marine and Alien start locations chosen randomly, but only allowing them in tech points tailored to the specific team (in the form of having vents/no vents).
Taken at face value I'd be completely behind this version of randomisation, but then you have to take into account which tech points will be viable for expansion. As aliens, it's doubtful you'd want to expand to a hive with no vent connections and vice versa for marines. Would this mean the only way to balance each map is to have a divide down the middle, on one side being <Alien Hive Rooms> and on the other <Marine Techpoints>?
The only two possible solutions I can think of are closing vents based on marine spawn location, which would require a complete re-do of the vent systems we have already, or having one team spawn in the same place while the other team is random (NS1 method).
The NS1 method still gives you randomised distances without the difficulty of messing up the suitability of expansion tech points during a game and was actually really good when the map was balanced (the only truly balanced map being ns_tanith).
Using tanith as an example, if the aliens started with Waste hive they could go for a super early lerk and pretty much keep marines out of the usually easily defended reactor room right up until mid-game, meaning the marines were far more open to having their Res Towers harassed on the "safer" side of the map (in Chem Trans and Sat Comm). The downside of this for the aliens was that they had much less easily defended res towers themselves <i>if</i> the marines responded in kind with a shotgun push through Acidic Processing or Central Access Tunnels to Cargo Bay/Fusion Reactor Hive.
On the other hand if the aliens spawned in Sat Comm hive, both teams could afford to play a long macro game, with marines easily capping RR, WAC and Waste and having easy access through to Cargo from CAT. The aliens would cap the easily defended (and my favourite pairing of nodes in all of NS) Acidic and Chem trans, covering both RTs with one or two chambers thanks to the unique vent placement - this allowed the rare exceptions of taking DCs and SCs first and still being able to get to the mid-game! The alien team could still harass effectively, however, thanks to the vent from Chem to RR.
My point is the NS1 method wasn't as bad as all that (and is probably only surpassed by some kind of dynamic architecture system) because it accounted for the balance of the rest of the map in relation to spawn location. The real issues with it stemmed from badly designed hives, which I hope NS2 mappers have learnt from!
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895881:date=Jan 19 2012, 10:50 PM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Jan 19 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be better if it was just a server admin option that could be set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is. Just open your map editor and set the spawns. It takes 2 minutes and clients don't need to do any downloads. We have had static spawn summit in our server since the build random spawns were introduced.
You can also download a static spawn version of summit from here: <a href="http://zeikko.fi/ns2/ns2_summit.level" target="_blank">http://zeikko.fi/ns2/ns2_summit.level</a> I'll try to keep it updated everytime a new patch is released.
The main problem I see with random spawns on summit is that unless you start on opposite sides of the map then both teams are basically given a free expansion as well as some RTs which will be pretty safe. As you can easily expand away from the enemy and it'll take them twice as long to get there. That forces them to attack your main base if they want to deny the expansion which is much easier to defend as reinforcements keep spawning.
With the standard spawns you always had to expand towards the enemy team. This is a lot more interesting as both teams can get there at about the same time. You also never had safe RTs and had to focus on defending them at all times.
You also get this when 1 team spawns in FC and 1 in DC, but IMO this just doesn't work as well as the standard spawns because of how summit is designed. The whole map flows from top to bottom and it feels strange fighting right to left. It's obvious that it was made with static spawns in mind.
It's great that "competitive" players can play with fixed spawns, but I don't see why public servers should have to play with the random spawns if they aren't working well. Playing with random spawns reminds me of playing on modded servers on other games. If some server admins want to basically have a deathmatch mode then that's fine, but the core game should be fun and balanced on it's own.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895856:date=Jan 19 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 19 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's clear that random start points tradeoff variety for balance. If every starting point was the same, no one would care. I don't WANT the starting points to be totally equal, I want them to change the game and force players to play differently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can do this by re-doing all the vents on summit and have marines in sub access or flight control, and aliens directly across the map in atrium or data core. That will create some diversity, but Flight control would need another redesign to make it a feasable marine spawn, too easy for aliens to hide in that room. <!--quoteo(post=1895856:date=Jan 19 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 19 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If competitive players don't like those random starts, it would be easy enough for us to release competitive versions of them with fixed starts (or you could just edit them yourselves, choosing whatever starts you want). I'd rather have a game that lots of people want to play and that needs some tweaks for competitive play, then a balanced, more sterile game that was having difficulty attracting a following.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not so much about competetive players as you might think. We're merely the ones that have an "eye" for such map/balance things, as we play the game in organized settings, and the gameplay problems are more evident in those cases. That is why you should listen to us.
The points I've written are also very evident on public games. Both teams being able to spawn in the same location does simply not work, because of map vent systems. It's not fair to compare NS2 to starcraft in this matter either. RTS/FPS, and again, vent systems. You are going against your own mapping guidelines about marine spawns being marine friendly and vise versa for aliens.
Im a "competitive player" and like the random spawns on summit every now an then(but it shouldnt be the standard version of the map, more like a server option because its not really that balanced at least in the summit layout) - more action, good for warmup as long as there is no combat mod... :P
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited January 2012
currently someone could even make a server side mod that forces fixed spawns, ignoring the options in the map. but, since we already have it i would like to leave this choice entirely to the mappers.
in my personal opinion i would like to see that every map provides at least 2 possible spawn points for each team. i like that you need to do some scouting at first, liked that in ns1 public games (where the marine comm didn't know the required tricks.
@MuYeah: i loved it to start at waste hive :) but sat was often more fun, since both teams were fighting for cargo which resulted often in intense matches. we need a tanith remake btw (almost same geometry, improved visuals)
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895982:date=Jan 20 2012, 02:32 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 20 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im a "competitive player" and like the random spawns on summit every now an then(but it shouldnt be the standard version of the map, more like a server option because its not really that balanced at least in the summit layout) - more action, good for warmup as long as there is no combat mod... :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you agree with me? I like the idea of random spawns as well, it's just a matter of balancing it right. Look at my suggestion for summit in my previous post. We have a RTS/FPS with two completely different races(more importantly, ranged vs melee), map design matters.
What you're asking for is simply close spawns? That basicly feels like combat. Also a combat mod will most likely come at some point, but it will be a <b>mod</b> instead of just a second gamemode/maptype. Servers won't change between mods all the time, new players will most likely play vanilla ns2. Lets stay on topic shall we?
edit: no im not asking for close spawns, i like the random element(+ scouting) and i dont have a problem if there are close spawns every now and then...
I dont feel like its THAT unbalanced, its just very different to play(more action and drama sometimes)... both sides got still more or less the same chances. (for public is fine, for tournaments/competitive games there are options - like we already did it with removing the random spawns on summit for a game, tho i personally dont have a problem if we played with random spawns every now and then)
There is no perfect balance with random.
Also alien vs. marines is not yet balanced fine, even for non random spawns...
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1895991:date=Jan 20 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 20 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: no im not asking for close spawns, i like the random element(+ scouting) and i dont have a problem if there are close spawns every now and then...
I dont feel like its THAT unbalanced, its just very different to play(more action and drama sometimes)... both sides got still more or less the same chances. (for public is fine, for tournaments/competitive games there are options - like we already did it with removing the random spawns on summit for a game, tho i personally dont have a problem if we played with random spawns every now and then)
There is no perfect balance with random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Having vents in marine spawn <b>is</b> <i>that</i> unbalanced, same with alien hives with no good vents nearby. There will be no balance as long as that is not adressed, again I suggest you look at my suggestion. Which includes random spawns for both teams, but no close spawns.
If you want close spawns you should wait for the combat mod. It does not fit the game very well to have the whole map being almost deserted, it makes gameplay very predictable from the moment you know where your enemy is. Rush their base, it's right next you! 1minute wins if the enemy team is not doing the same tactic, it's way too deathmatchy for the vanilla game imo. Also, the map is much more interesting when the spawns are across, as you will have the choices between 3 hives at about the same distance from you and the marines. Aliens also get a natural expansion whenever teams spawn close. With close spawns you need to keep the pressure off from the aliens at the extractor point between the spawns. With spawns across and no spawning on same spots on summit, it becomes a 3 way screnario(tech points), with two possible screnarios to play. You get alot more viable ways to go in the map. You don't seem to take much of what I write into consideration when you just say that you like random spawns once in a while. There is no perfect balance, but you can get pretty damn close.
My point is, players/server-admins have the option to change the random spawn... some maps like summit might not be too good for total random spawns, but that doesnt mean it cant be fun.
There will be better and worse maps for this. Some maps might only be good(and competitive acceptable) if played in one way others in 2 or 3 ways - depends on the layout. (so you still have some kind of randomness, but limited/not as bad worse case scenarios)
I was thinking about that 2 scenario summit too, would be cool if we could set this up... (so it would random pick the "scenario" and then random/or non random choose on which side who spawns in this scenario)
But we already have the power to change something (ok except this scenario logic ), would be cool as command - otherwise we need to make different spawn layouts of the same map all the time. (which would work better if map downloads are in, but still not very elegant)
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Another thing that would be cool, if depending on where you spawn, some map elements could change... like different Techpoint, RT positions or remove a techpoint if it would be too close as expension etc, for your vent problem - a weldable vent, or closeable with a switch if marines spawn there etc ... (nothing too big, but very helpful in balancing different layouts/scenarios even more)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Think of it like scenario idea 2.0 - at least i think that would be very very very very very useful.
I would like to ask that no "competitive" versions of maps be released, this idea that competitive players and public players being on different sides of the fence doesn't need to be reinforced with things like that! :O
I actually love Summit with random spawns, there is a reason it works so well - all the vent systems (bar Atrium, but I will get to that) are connected between corridors and RT rooms, and not into Tech Node rooms. This is a big part of why Tram is such a terrible map in its current state with random spawns, it doesn't adhere to the ns2 mapping guidelines. The only reason it's not a big deal for marines spawning in Atrium is because the vents merely join up with the corridor bit between Crevice and Atrium, so doesn't provide any sort of tactical positioning for aliens other than an alternate route. Summit basically adheres to the mapping guidelines, making random spawns on that map good.
Tram is the real problem map as far as random spawns go, and I'm quite surprised no one has picked up on it, especially now that doors aren't lockable anymore. Almost all the rooms are connected via the tram line, which skulks have full access to (small holes means skulks have access, marines don't), but doors which does the opposite (allows marines, doesn't allow skulks) don't do their job anymore. There's a spawn in Warehouse (I believe that's the room, up north next to server room) that has <b>6</b> entry points, 2 main routes, the door, and 3 vents, one of the vents that looks directly at the Tech node :P But because of things like this, there is basically no distance between marine spawn and alien spawn, barring if both sides spawn at their original starts. This means that all aliens have to do on that map is rush and rush and rush the marine's main base as skulks, and you simply won't fail as aliens. On top of which, almost all starting positions for marines offer no easy RT expansions, which summit does offer for all possible spawn locations.
I agree with what Flayra said about starting points shouldn't be utterly 50/50, because it makes the game a much better spectator sport with teams spawning with slight advantages/disadvantages and forces the teams to produce different tactics, but obviously he doesn't mean that the favour should be something like 90/10, more like 40/60 or something.
I'm also going to throw out that I remember Psykoman (sp, sorry) saying he's making pretty drastic changes (I might be lying) to make random spawns a bit more tolerable, but I actually quite like it on his map, again, it's Tram that's the problem, but I also heard that the mapper is working on a different map. There is nothing wrong with having Cross-Spawn maps and Random-Spawn maps so long as they're clearly defined in the loading screen (and maybe mentioned in the Ready Room somehow), I do believe Tram should revert to being Cross-Positions and Summit should stay on track with Random Spawns, cause he's doing a mighty fine job with it.
And to boot it should wait till Tier 3 stuff enters before abandoning random spawns, but to be honest, I don't see UWE ditching it, sadly, even on Tram. :(
So, trying to be helpful: Summit random is good because it follows the guidelines, Tram random not so good because it doesn't follow guidelines except for original starting locations, therefore should be static spawns. The reason I am ok with the other tech rooms in Tram not following the guidelines is because by the time you expand there you should have the tech to defend it properly!
For what its worth, I've literally not seen a marine win from an atrium spawn against aliens of equal skill or of any decency ever since random starts were introduced to summit. Those vents that connect the crevice side of atrium all the way to XR are killer and make it incredibly hard for marines to hold that flank without holding both fc and crossroads at the same time. Then there are the 2 very ambush friendly vent systems over in reactor and glass hallway. FC is problematic as well but i think its manageable relative to atrium..
I personally think people are missing the point when they argue that close spawns unbalance the game. Its actually due to vents in marine start and the vulnerability of power nodes. For example, sub/dc alien/marine spawns are no where near as bad as fc/atrium spawns. If marines are losing to skulk rushes from close spawns, then most of the time its because they were outskilled and disorganized (meaning no one builds ip or it takes a long time to do so). Aliens start by scouting both sides of the map, meaning any early rush generally only consists of half the alien team.
I have to agree with argathor, zeikko and others that its slightly concerning if a developer and mapper don't seem to fully recognize the random start problems on summit.
<!--quoteo(post=1896011:date=Jan 20 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jan 20 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also going to throw out that I remember Psykoman (sp, sorry) saying he's making pretty drastic changes (I might be lying) to make random spawns a bit more tolerable, but I actually quite like it on his map, again, it's Tram that's the problem, but I also heard that the mapper is working on a different map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its your map psyko, but i love how you've made the vent systems as they are currently and hope you dont do anything too drastic :(. Personally i would love to just see marine random spawn disabled on atrium...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1894676:date=Jan 15 2012, 06:52 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 15 2012, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Due to vent systems on maps; aliens need them to get around the map from their spawns, and marine spawns needs to NOT have vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i didnt read every post yet, but just have the vents weldable? its worked before.
I like the random spawns. It creates more unique situations in the game and allows for much more different strategies.
I think it's fair to say that even though this game is an FPS-RPG hybrid, it doesn't mean that all player compositions have to be equally good at both FPS and RPG genres. Some teams (clans) are better at rushing early on with a good win percentage, and it's nice to see a game offer the possibility to do so sometimes with the random spawns. Then again, some clans definitely will excel at longer games when higher technology tiers are achieved, so the might want to try and make the game long even if the spawns are close.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1895852:date=Jan 19 2012, 07:30 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jan 19 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I never said I don't think there is a problem and Flayra's post obviously implies that issues will be adressed eventually. As you guys mentioned it's kinda fun for public play, that doesn't mean the competitive side will be ignored on that matter, although it seems some take it that way judging by comments like this:
I know you are very passionate about clan play and that is a good thing, but comments like this just lead to being ignored or taken less seriously, which would be a shame because every feedback is valuable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The important point was that through both replies neither had picked up on or shown any understanding of why there was a problem.
My post was blunt and honest. There was nothing malicious or with the intent to insult. A blind spot like the potential one identified has serious implications for NS2's development and it honestly worried me. I should, however, have explained why it worried me to make it constructive.
Without understanding why maps need to be balanced and how some of the smaller aspects of maps (vents, etc) can significantly sway balance NS2 will have a difficult time providing public games where any team has a chance to win. This is integral to attracting a wider userbase and making NS2 as successful as it can be. Variety should come from the combination of gameplay mechanics, map positioning and team ability. Variety should not come from advantages/disadvantages being forced on teams from the second the game begins.
It's clear that random start points tradeoff variety for balance. If every starting point was the same, no one would care. I don't WANT the starting points to be totally equal, I want them to change the game and force players to play differently.
You see this in Starcraft 2 where players are sometimes forced to play a different build than their comfortable with, or to all-in earlier than they'd want to (a recent Day9.tv broadcast on Lost Temple with Zerg in South and Terran in East comes to mind). Yes it's less balanced, but I think it adds so much to the game that it's worth it.
If competitive players don't like those random starts, it would be easy enough for us to release competitive versions of them with fixed starts (or you could just edit them yourselves, choosing whatever starts you want). I'd rather have a game that lots of people want to play and that needs some tweaks for competitive play, then a balanced, more sterile game that was having difficulty attracting a following.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly think that you cannot possibly compare competitive SC2 players with the average public NS2 player.
Lost Temple can be viewed here: <img src="http://www.starcraftrookie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/starcraft-2-map-lost-temple.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The SC2 map dynamics are very carefully planned, they offer equal footing at the beginning of the game with differences as the game opens up and evolves. This variety comes from the depth of gameplay mechanics and technology/units available to each side, with the map design (and player positioning) itself giving pros or cons to specific strategies.
As you can see the map is symmetrical, at no point does a starting area have extra entrances, nore even do any secondary areas. The maps give equal opportunity to everyone. The depth and variety comes from how the other aspects of gameplay combine with the map. This is something NS2 should strive for.
I think that people are perhaps underestimating exactly how clever some of the current maps are when using fixed spawns. The marines and aliens are significantly different (far more so than any two SC2 races), so for each to have an 'equal' opportunity from their starting position they need different map elements/options. This means that a simple symmetry system is not good enough. The fact that ns2_summit managed to provide a solid attempt at balance, using different layouts either side of the map is an incredibly impressive feat. One that should not be ignored.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
Just to clear up another point after looking at some of the recent replies. No-one is arguing that random starts are a bad feature. It is a fantastic idea that will add variety into gameplay in the future. However maps need to be designed for random starts, it is not possible to fairly adapt fixed start maps to random start.
I would hope that in the future we will see a wide array of random, fixed and mixed start mode maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1896098:date=Jan 20 2012, 07:52 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Jan 20 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to clear up another point after looking at some of the recent replies. No-one is arguing that random starts are a bad feature. It is a fantastic idea that will add variety into gameplay in the future. However maps need to be designed for random starts, it is not possible to fairly adapt fixed start maps to random start.
I would hope that in the future we will see a wide array of random, fixed and mixed start mode maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the take-home message, right here.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1896104:date=Jan 20 2012, 01:15 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 20 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the take-home message, right here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Basicly the same I have been saying the whole thread :P Just with better use of words, good post Arga!
And just to be clear about my "silly" statements early in the thread: I wasn't calling him silly, I was calling his posts "silly" because they didn't really relate to the OP and made little to no sense. It meant no offense, even though offensive might have been taken. Maybe it's because english is not my first language, and I couldn't find the right word? He responds with heavy personal attacks, and I am the one who gets a warning? Man.. Is the word "silly" somehow swearing in english? I know it's not in my language.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1896082:date=Jan 20 2012, 03:06 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 20 2012, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want to fix a problem with a map by changing the game design?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, how else do you plan on allowing vents in bases except for when marines occupy them? I see no mapping solution available for this specific issue if we keep random spawns (hope we do I love it)
Just allow welding of vents in rooms occupied by a comm chair?
I do agree with a minimum distance needed, but with summit that would lead to only one base possible, the same as fixed spawns. So the mapping solution is either larger maps or more tech points (bases).. Right?
The mapper just has to disable the marine start option (switch it to alien start only) in those vented rooms. It's a mapping issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1896109:date=Jan 20 2012, 08:46 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 20 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basicly the same I have been saying the whole thread :P Just with better use of words, good post Arga!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was a concise, straight-to-the-point summary. Design maps around random, mixed, or fixed starts. Don't try to "fix" random starts in maps that weren't designed for them.
I haven't read all the replies, but I think random spawn locations is a wonderful idea. It adds a new element into the game; you actually have to scout in the early game as aliens. As for games ending in 1-2 minutes because of close spawn positions, so what? Does every game need to be an epic one hour battle? Different strategies would need to be used, and variety usually isn't a bad thing.
I don't understand why you think close spawn positions are imbalanced when either team has the potential to end the game just as easily as the other.
About the alien/marine friendly starting positions: What about some sort of variable map elements? Such as, extra vents that are open when the aliens have the tech point/close when marines have it. Even entire hallways/rooms could be shut off/open depending on starting positions. I realize that seems like a tremendous amount of work but it could be interesting.
Balancing the maps is going to be very hard to achieve but it's not impossible. If every map had to adhere to certain map standards (eg distance between tech points/resource towers, amount/location of vents, openness of rooms) then that would balance a bit easier. I'm thinking of starcraft/starcraft2 here. Every map has a main, a natural expansion (either up or down a ramp/walled off), and a third. I guess that's oversimplifying it but my point still stands.
Comments
Relocation.
Well in NS1, you had the layout with equal timing to reach each hive (NS1 Mapping guidelines). It won't work 1:1 in NS2 when map layouts are different including 4+ hives. Personally I prefer fixed marine start and possibly aliens could choose their hive, or at least have minimum distance between the marines and aliens. NS1's random hives were annoying because you could end up with like Alpha in lost gg (that's what knife said). Even in veil, pipeline is really bad hive for aliens. Although I understand a bit of randomness increases the game versatility a bit, so its a tradeoff. However if the hives <i>are</i> equally balanced, teams should versatility by trying to pick the least expected hive (and tactics). Since we have no experience in hive choosing in NS1, its hard to say.
Yes, tram and summit use random spawns to test that feature. They are the only maps played and it needs to be tested properly to get some feedback that can be used for the other offical maps in developement aswell. It doesn't mean that the issues in these maps won't be adressed eventually in which ever way.
Random spawns adds so much to the map and game that it's worth trying to balance a map around it, although you guys are certainly right that it's more difficult to balance a map around it that wasn't designed with random spawns in mind.
Anyway, you make some good points regarding summit and I appreciate the feedback. Thank you.
Also I never said I don't think there is a problem and Flayra's post obviously implies that issues will be adressed eventually. As you guys mentioned it's kinda fun for public play, that doesn't mean the competitive side will be ignored on that matter, although it seems some take it that way judging by comments like this:
<!--quoteo(post=1895765:date=Jan 19 2012, 04:12 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Jan 19 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not the only member of the competitive community slightly dismayed by the obvious lack in understanding of map related balance from the games creator and an official mapper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know you are very passionate about clan play and that is a good thing, but comments like this just lead to being ignored or taken less seriously, which would be a shame because every feedback is valuable.
So the game would choose a random start location for the marines from among those tech points marked as 'potential marine start', then a random start location for the aliens from among the remaining tech points marked as 'potential alien start'.
A mapper could do the classic NS thing and have only one marine start, and several potential alien starts.
Or the mapper could have one marine start and one alien start.
Or the mapper could have all the potential marine starts and potential alien starts be the same.
Or some other configuration, it's up to them.
It can be dynamic, it can be static, it can be bits of both; it's up to the mapper's intentions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly how it works at the moment. It's all in the map.
It's clear that random start points tradeoff variety for balance. If every starting point was the same, no one would care. I don't WANT the starting points to be totally equal, I want them to change the game and force players to play differently.
You see this in Starcraft 2 where players are sometimes forced to play a different build than their comfortable with, or to all-in earlier than they'd want to (a recent Day9.tv broadcast on Lost Temple with Zerg in South and Terran in East comes to mind). Yes it's less balanced, but I think it adds so much to the game that it's worth it.
If competitive players don't like those random starts, it would be easy enough for us to release competitive versions of them with fixed starts (or you could just edit them yourselves, choosing whatever starts you want). I'd rather have a game that lots of people want to play and that needs some tweaks for competitive play, then a balanced, more sterile game that was having difficulty attracting a following.
It's a wonder that you can ignore the importance of map design simply because of the natural respawn-time advantage. There is not a single respectable NS1 map (except maybe ns_caged?) that suffers from alien-biased vents in marine start. In fact, mappers overwhelmingly tend to remove any vents in map updates. Eclipse, veil, bast and ayumi (though unoffically in ayumi's case) have all been reworked to remove vents. This says a lot about the importance of vents and starting locations. It's quite absurd to claim that they just add flavour. In NS2, vents aren't limited to confining combat advantages to aliens which they do well enough as it is. It makes the already cheesy and powerful base-rush that much more of an option too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're going to get base rushed it'll work whether or not there is a vent, base rushes work by skulks killing all the marines and camping their spawn, the problem has nothing to do with map design and everything to do with marines having a slow, vulnerable, and incredibly telegraphed spawning system. Aliens aren't actually much better off. It's a problem really with the NS idea of bases providing map functions.
In other games, you spawn in a spawn room, which is deliberately kept off to the side because respawning is a kind of imperfect solution to the problem of dying in a multiplayer game. It works, but it has a lot of problems which you have to work around, and one of those is that it's incredibly disorienting and really easy to exploit as an attacker. Traditionally the solution is to put the spawn behind a one way door, or put instakill lasers in front of it, or put it miles away from the enemy spawn, or spread the spawns out over a large area so you can't camp all of them at once, or all of the above.
NS doesn't have spawn rooms, or any of the above countermeasures, in the marine case it doesn't even have conventional 'pop out of thin air randomly' spawning, it has a special machine that lights up and spins and makes whooshing noises and basically says HEY ALIENS A MARINE IS GOING TO SPAWN HERE before you spawn. Aliens get eggs, which are less obvious, but not really much better, and even then they still spawn around the hive as really weak skulks so they still aren't in a good position.
That's what causes baserushing, not vents, or any sort of map design.
If you want to solve it, personally I'd suggest starting the game for both sides with pre-placed defenses. Marines get a couple of sentries covering the IP and CC, aliens get a bunch of hydras dotted around the hive room. Good enough to hold off initial attacks, but as you expand the base and make new bases and RTs and the like, you also create weaknesses, and eventually the game evolves beyond simple sentries and hydras so they become irrelevant once the game gets going.
It's analogous to having distance between Marine and Alien start locations chosen randomly, but only allowing them in tech points tailored to the specific team (in the form of having vents/no vents).
Taken at face value I'd be completely behind this version of randomisation, but then you have to take into account which tech points will be viable for expansion. As aliens, it's doubtful you'd want to expand to a hive with no vent connections and vice versa for marines. Would this mean the only way to balance each map is to have a divide down the middle, on one side being <Alien Hive Rooms> and on the other <Marine Techpoints>?
The only two possible solutions I can think of are closing vents based on marine spawn location, which would require a complete re-do of the vent systems we have already, or having one team spawn in the same place while the other team is random (NS1 method).
The NS1 method still gives you randomised distances without the difficulty of messing up the suitability of expansion tech points during a game and was actually really good when the map was balanced (the only truly balanced map being ns_tanith).
Using tanith as an example, if the aliens started with Waste hive they could go for a super early lerk and pretty much keep marines out of the usually easily defended reactor room right up until mid-game, meaning the marines were far more open to having their Res Towers harassed on the "safer" side of the map (in Chem Trans and Sat Comm). The downside of this for the aliens was that they had much less easily defended res towers themselves <i>if</i> the marines responded in kind with a shotgun push through Acidic Processing or Central Access Tunnels to Cargo Bay/Fusion Reactor Hive.
On the other hand if the aliens spawned in Sat Comm hive, both teams could afford to play a long macro game, with marines easily capping RR, WAC and Waste and having easy access through to Cargo from CAT. The aliens would cap the easily defended (and my favourite pairing of nodes in all of NS) Acidic and Chem trans, covering both RTs with one or two chambers thanks to the unique vent placement - this allowed the rare exceptions of taking DCs and SCs first and still being able to get to the mid-game! The alien team could still harass effectively, however, thanks to the vent from Chem to RR.
My point is the NS1 method wasn't as bad as all that (and is probably only surpassed by some kind of dynamic architecture system) because it accounted for the balance of the rest of the map in relation to spawn location. The real issues with it stemmed from badly designed hives, which I hope NS2 mappers have learnt from!
It is. Just open your map editor and set the spawns. It takes 2 minutes and clients don't need to do any downloads. We have had static spawn summit in our server since the build random spawns were introduced.
You can also download a static spawn version of summit from here: <a href="http://zeikko.fi/ns2/ns2_summit.level" target="_blank">http://zeikko.fi/ns2/ns2_summit.level</a>
I'll try to keep it updated everytime a new patch is released.
With the standard spawns you always had to expand towards the enemy team. This is a lot more interesting as both teams can get there at about the same time. You also never had safe RTs and had to focus on defending them at all times.
You also get this when 1 team spawns in FC and 1 in DC, but IMO this just doesn't work as well as the standard spawns because of how summit is designed. The whole map flows from top to bottom and it feels strange fighting right to left. It's obvious that it was made with static spawns in mind.
It's great that "competitive" players can play with fixed spawns, but I don't see why public servers should have to play with the random spawns if they aren't working well. Playing with random spawns reminds me of playing on modded servers on other games. If some server admins want to basically have a deathmatch mode then that's fine, but the core game should be fun and balanced on it's own.
You can do this by re-doing all the vents on summit and have marines in sub access or flight control, and aliens directly across the map in atrium or data core.
That will create some diversity, but Flight control would need another redesign to make it a feasable marine spawn, too easy for aliens to hide in that room.
<!--quoteo(post=1895856:date=Jan 19 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 19 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If competitive players don't like those random starts, it would be easy enough for us to release competitive versions of them with fixed starts (or you could just edit them yourselves, choosing whatever starts you want). I'd rather have a game that lots of people want to play and that needs some tweaks for competitive play, then a balanced, more sterile game that was having difficulty attracting a following.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not so much about competetive players as you might think.
We're merely the ones that have an "eye" for such map/balance things, as we play the game in organized settings, and the gameplay problems are more evident in those cases.
That is why you should listen to us.
The points I've written are also very evident on public games.
Both teams being able to spawn in the same location does simply not work, because of map vent systems.
It's not fair to compare NS2 to starcraft in this matter either. RTS/FPS, and again, vent systems.
You are going against your own mapping guidelines about marine spawns being marine friendly and vise versa for aliens.
in my personal opinion i would like to see that every map provides at least 2 possible spawn points for each team. i like that you need to do some scouting at first, liked that in ns1 public games (where the marine comm didn't know the required tricks.
@MuYeah: i loved it to start at waste hive :) but sat was often more fun, since both teams were fighting for cargo which resulted often in intense matches. we need a tanith remake btw (almost same geometry, improved visuals)
So you agree with me? I like the idea of random spawns as well, it's just a matter of balancing it right.
Look at my suggestion for summit in my previous post.
We have a RTS/FPS with two completely different races(more importantly, ranged vs melee), map design matters.
What you're asking for is simply close spawns? That basicly feels like combat.
Also a combat mod will most likely come at some point, but it will be a <b>mod</b> instead of just a second gamemode/maptype.
Servers won't change between mods all the time, new players will most likely play vanilla ns2.
Lets stay on topic shall we?
I dont feel like its THAT unbalanced, its just very different to play(more action and drama sometimes)... both sides got still more or less the same chances. (for public is fine, for tournaments/competitive games there are options - like we already did it with removing the random spawns on summit for a game, tho i personally dont have a problem if we played with random spawns every now and then)
There is no perfect balance with random.
Also alien vs. marines is not yet balanced fine, even for non random spawns...
I dont feel like its THAT unbalanced, its just very different to play(more action and drama sometimes)... both sides got still more or less the same chances. (for public is fine, for tournaments/competitive games there are options - like we already did it with removing the random spawns on summit for a game, tho i personally dont have a problem if we played with random spawns every now and then)
There is no perfect balance with random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having vents in marine spawn <b>is</b> <i>that</i> unbalanced, same with alien hives with no good vents nearby.
There will be no balance as long as that is not adressed, again I suggest you look at my suggestion.
Which includes random spawns for both teams, but no close spawns.
If you want close spawns you should wait for the combat mod.
It does not fit the game very well to have the whole map being almost deserted, it makes gameplay very predictable from the moment you know where your enemy is.
Rush their base, it's right next you!
1minute wins if the enemy team is not doing the same tactic, it's way too deathmatchy for the vanilla game imo.
Also, the map is much more interesting when the spawns are across, as you will have the choices between 3 hives at about the same distance from you and the marines.
Aliens also get a natural expansion whenever teams spawn close.
With close spawns you need to keep the pressure off from the aliens at the extractor point between the spawns.
With spawns across and no spawning on same spots on summit, it becomes a 3 way screnario(tech points), with two possible screnarios to play.
You get alot more viable ways to go in the map.
You don't seem to take much of what I write into consideration when you just say that you like random spawns once in a while.
There is no perfect balance, but you can get pretty damn close.
There will be better and worse maps for this.
Some maps might only be good(and competitive acceptable) if played in one way others in 2 or 3 ways - depends on the layout. (so you still have some kind of randomness, but limited/not as bad worse case scenarios)
I was thinking about that 2 scenario summit too, would be cool if we could set this up... (so it would random pick the "scenario" and then random/or non random choose on which side who spawns in this scenario)
But we already have the power to change something (ok except this scenario logic ), would be cool as command - otherwise we need to make different spawn layouts of the same map all the time. (which would work better if map downloads are in, but still not very elegant)
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Another thing that would be cool, if depending on where you spawn, some map elements could change... like different Techpoint, RT positions or remove a techpoint if it would be too close as expension etc, for your vent problem - a weldable vent, or closeable with a switch if marines spawn there etc ... (nothing too big, but very helpful in balancing different layouts/scenarios even more)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Think of it like scenario idea 2.0 - at least i think that would be very very very very very useful.
I actually love Summit with random spawns, there is a reason it works so well - all the vent systems (bar Atrium, but I will get to that) are connected between corridors and RT rooms, and not into Tech Node rooms. This is a big part of why Tram is such a terrible map in its current state with random spawns, it doesn't adhere to the ns2 mapping guidelines. The only reason it's not a big deal for marines spawning in Atrium is because the vents merely join up with the corridor bit between Crevice and Atrium, so doesn't provide any sort of tactical positioning for aliens other than an alternate route. Summit basically adheres to the mapping guidelines, making random spawns on that map good.
Tram is the real problem map as far as random spawns go, and I'm quite surprised no one has picked up on it, especially now that doors aren't lockable anymore. Almost all the rooms are connected via the tram line, which skulks have full access to (small holes means skulks have access, marines don't), but doors which does the opposite (allows marines, doesn't allow skulks) don't do their job anymore. There's a spawn in Warehouse (I believe that's the room, up north next to server room) that has <b>6</b> entry points, 2 main routes, the door, and 3 vents, one of the vents that looks directly at the Tech node :P But because of things like this, there is basically no distance between marine spawn and alien spawn, barring if both sides spawn at their original starts. This means that all aliens have to do on that map is rush and rush and rush the marine's main base as skulks, and you simply won't fail as aliens. On top of which, almost all starting positions for marines offer no easy RT expansions, which summit does offer for all possible spawn locations.
I agree with what Flayra said about starting points shouldn't be utterly 50/50, because it makes the game a much better spectator sport with teams spawning with slight advantages/disadvantages and forces the teams to produce different tactics, but obviously he doesn't mean that the favour should be something like 90/10, more like 40/60 or something.
I'm also going to throw out that I remember Psykoman (sp, sorry) saying he's making pretty drastic changes (I might be lying) to make random spawns a bit more tolerable, but I actually quite like it on his map, again, it's Tram that's the problem, but I also heard that the mapper is working on a different map. There is nothing wrong with having Cross-Spawn maps and Random-Spawn maps so long as they're clearly defined in the loading screen (and maybe mentioned in the Ready Room somehow), I do believe Tram should revert to being Cross-Positions and Summit should stay on track with Random Spawns, cause he's doing a mighty fine job with it.
And to boot it should wait till Tier 3 stuff enters before abandoning random spawns, but to be honest, I don't see UWE ditching it, sadly, even on Tram. :(
So, trying to be helpful: Summit random is good because it follows the guidelines, Tram random not so good because it doesn't follow guidelines except for original starting locations, therefore should be static spawns. The reason I am ok with the other tech rooms in Tram not following the guidelines is because by the time you expand there you should have the tech to defend it properly!
Those vents that connect the crevice side of atrium all the way to XR are killer and make it incredibly hard for marines to hold that flank without holding both fc and crossroads at the same time. Then there are the 2 very ambush friendly vent systems over in reactor and glass hallway. FC is problematic as well but i think its manageable relative to atrium..
I personally think people are missing the point when they argue that close spawns unbalance the game. Its actually due to vents in marine start and the vulnerability of power nodes. For example, sub/dc alien/marine spawns are no where near as bad as fc/atrium spawns. If marines are losing to skulk rushes from close spawns, then most of the time its because they were outskilled and disorganized (meaning no one builds ip or it takes a long time to do so). Aliens start by scouting both sides of the map, meaning any early rush generally only consists of half the alien team.
I have to agree with argathor, zeikko and others that its slightly concerning if a developer and mapper don't seem to fully recognize the random start problems on summit.
<!--quoteo(post=1896011:date=Jan 20 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jan 20 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also going to throw out that I remember Psykoman (sp, sorry) saying he's making pretty drastic changes (I might be lying) to make random spawns a bit more tolerable, but I actually quite like it on his map, again, it's Tram that's the problem, but I also heard that the mapper is working on a different map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its your map psyko, but i love how you've made the vent systems as they are currently and hope you dont do anything too drastic :(. Personally i would love to just see marine random spawn disabled on atrium...
i didnt read every post yet, but just have the vents weldable? its worked before.
I think it's fair to say that even though this game is an FPS-RPG hybrid, it doesn't mean that all player compositions have to be equally good at both FPS and RPG genres. Some teams (clans) are better at rushing early on with a good win percentage, and it's nice to see a game offer the possibility to do so sometimes with the random spawns. Then again, some clans definitely will excel at longer games when higher technology tiers are achieved, so the might want to try and make the game long even if the spawns are close.
I know you are very passionate about clan play and that is a good thing, but comments like this just lead to being ignored or taken less seriously, which would be a shame because every feedback is valuable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The important point was that through both replies neither had picked up on or shown any understanding of why there was a problem.
My post was blunt and honest. There was nothing malicious or with the intent to insult. A blind spot like the potential one identified has serious implications for NS2's development and it honestly worried me. I should, however, have explained why it worried me to make it constructive.
Without understanding why maps need to be balanced and how some of the smaller aspects of maps (vents, etc) can significantly sway balance NS2 will have a difficult time providing public games where any team has a chance to win. This is integral to attracting a wider userbase and making NS2 as successful as it can be. Variety should come from the combination of gameplay mechanics, map positioning and team ability. Variety should not come from advantages/disadvantages being forced on teams from the second the game begins.
More on this below...
<!--quoteo(post=1895856:date=Jan 19 2012, 07:39 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 19 2012, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good posts here.
It's clear that random start points tradeoff variety for balance. If every starting point was the same, no one would care. I don't WANT the starting points to be totally equal, I want them to change the game and force players to play differently.
You see this in Starcraft 2 where players are sometimes forced to play a different build than their comfortable with, or to all-in earlier than they'd want to (a recent Day9.tv broadcast on Lost Temple with Zerg in South and Terran in East comes to mind). Yes it's less balanced, but I think it adds so much to the game that it's worth it.
If competitive players don't like those random starts, it would be easy enough for us to release competitive versions of them with fixed starts (or you could just edit them yourselves, choosing whatever starts you want). I'd rather have a game that lots of people want to play and that needs some tweaks for competitive play, then a balanced, more sterile game that was having difficulty attracting a following.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly think that you cannot possibly compare competitive SC2 players with the average public NS2 player.
Lost Temple can be viewed here: <img src="http://www.starcraftrookie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/starcraft-2-map-lost-temple.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The SC2 map dynamics are very carefully planned, they offer equal footing at the beginning of the game with differences as the game opens up and evolves. This variety comes from the depth of gameplay mechanics and technology/units available to each side, with the map design (and player positioning) itself giving pros or cons to specific strategies.
As you can see the map is symmetrical, at no point does a starting area have extra entrances, nore even do any secondary areas. The maps give equal opportunity to everyone. The depth and variety comes from how the other aspects of gameplay combine with the map. This is something NS2 should strive for.
I think that people are perhaps underestimating exactly how clever some of the current maps are when using fixed spawns. The marines and aliens are significantly different (far more so than any two SC2 races), so for each to have an 'equal' opportunity from their starting position they need different map elements/options. This means that a simple symmetry system is not good enough. The fact that ns2_summit managed to provide a solid attempt at balance, using different layouts either side of the map is an incredibly impressive feat. One that should not be ignored.
I would hope that in the future we will see a wide array of random, fixed and mixed start mode maps.
I would hope that in the future we will see a wide array of random, fixed and mixed start mode maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the take-home message, right here.
Basicly the same I have been saying the whole thread :P
Just with better use of words, good post Arga!
And just to be clear about my "silly" statements early in the thread:
I wasn't calling him silly, I was calling his posts "silly" because they didn't really relate to the OP and made little to no sense.
It meant no offense, even though offensive might have been taken.
Maybe it's because english is not my first language, and I couldn't find the right word?
He responds with heavy personal attacks, and I am the one who gets a warning? Man..
Is the word "silly" somehow swearing in english? I know it's not in my language.
Yea, how else do you plan on allowing vents in bases except for when marines occupy them? I see no mapping solution available for this specific issue if we keep random spawns (hope we do I love it)
Just allow welding of vents in rooms occupied by a comm chair?
I do agree with a minimum distance needed, but with summit that would lead to only one base possible, the same as fixed spawns. So the mapping solution is either larger maps or more tech points (bases).. Right?
The mapper just has to disable the marine start option (switch it to alien start only) in those vented rooms. It's a mapping issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1896109:date=Jan 20 2012, 08:46 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jan 20 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basicly the same I have been saying the whole thread :P
Just with better use of words, good post Arga!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a concise, straight-to-the-point summary.
Design maps around random, mixed, or fixed starts. Don't try to "fix" random starts in maps that weren't designed for them.
I don't understand why you think close spawn positions are imbalanced when either team has the potential to end the game just as easily as the other.
About the alien/marine friendly starting positions: What about some sort of variable map elements? Such as, extra vents that are open when the aliens have the tech point/close when marines have it. Even entire hallways/rooms could be shut off/open depending on starting positions. I realize that seems like a tremendous amount of work but it could be interesting.
Balancing the maps is going to be very hard to achieve but it's not impossible. If every map had to adhere to certain map standards (eg distance between tech points/resource towers, amount/location of vents, openness of rooms) then that would balance a bit easier. I'm thinking of starcraft/starcraft2 here. Every map has a main, a natural expansion (either up or down a ramp/walled off), and a third. I guess that's oversimplifying it but my point still stands.