Random spawns

swalk

Updated the OP with a video to show how bad vents in marine spawns are, as a map design.
It is from a competetive game, but it happens just as often on publics.

Bacillus

Now that the summer release is official I'd really like to see a decisive plan on how the spawns are handled. Completely randomized spawns are going to take a lot of work to test and balance at the very least, not to speak of the potential tradeoffs you have to accept to make them work. Basically this is one of the features I'd start cutting when things are in a hurry.

swalk

<!--quoteo(post=1902939:date=Feb 14 2012, 11:22 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Feb 14 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now that the summer release is official I'd really like to see a decisive plan on how the spawns are handled. Completely randomized spawns are going to take a lot of work to test and balance at the very least, not to speak of the potential tradeoffs you have to accept to make them work. Basically this is one of the features I'd start cutting when things are in a hurry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I have mentioned a few times in this topic:
The only way to ever make any kind of random spawns work properly, is to not have both teams spawn at the same locations.
And to have them spawn a certain distance away from each other to prevent early, game-ending, kamikaze rushing from skulks/easy egg camping.
Otherwise good map balance will be <b>impossible</b> to achieve, and the game will become less of a success.
Simply because; <b>people don't like getting spawncamped</b>.

With the summer getting closer, it's beginning to worry me that they still don't reconize any of these problems that the players point out.
Actually they did the exact opposite as a response to this, they added a new vent in the old "marine start" of summit.
Now all locations are almost equally bad for marines on summit.

_Necro_

Vents shouldn't be a problem when the welder is implemented and the vents are weldable (and maybe also omnomnom-open-able by the aliens?).
To start close to each other isn't a real problem, if respawn times (ip and egg spawn) are balanced. You are right, that spawn camping isn't fun, but this only lasts for 30sec or a minute, than the game is over and you can try again in a new game. I like this short games as refreshing variation of the standard 1 hour game. And if the marine tactic of building a robot factory and 2 sentries early is (balanced and) viable and don't lead to a late-game loss, than it will be ok. There simply has to be a viable tactic to play along with a near alien hive. For the sake of variation in the game (NS1 was mostly every time the same tactic / build order).

So don't scrap the random spawn mechanic. Simply change the 3 existing maps so it is fair to start on every position.

swalk

<!--quoteo(post=1902965:date=Feb 14 2012, 12:31 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 14 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vents shouldn't be a problem when the welder is implemented and the vents are weldable (and maybe also omnomnom-open-able by the aliens?).
To start close to each other isn't a real problem, if respawn times (ip and egg spawn) are balanced. You are right, that spawn camping isn't fun, but this only lasts for 30sec or a minute, than the game is over and you can try again in a new game. I like this short games as refreshing variation of the standard 1 hour game. And if the marine tactic of building a robot factory and 2 sentries early is (balanced and) viable and don't lead to a late-game loss, than it will be ok. There simply has to be a viable tactic to play along with a near alien hive. For the sake of variation in the game (NS1 was mostly every time the same tactic / build order).

So don't scrap the random spawn mechanic. Simply change the 3 existing maps so it is fair to start on every position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one ever said anything about scrapping the random spawn mechanic, I think you need to read again.
I'm saying that maps will never be balanced as long as both teams can spawn at the same locations. Simply due to vents.
That needs a change if this game is ever to become competetive, or be any fun playing at all.
Starting too close is a real problem, it would be foolish to say otherwise. It was a problem as well in NS1, aliens waste hive in tanith anyone?
No need to make this game a team deathmatch where there is no penalty to spawning(fast respawning), or requiring you to turtle your base up in most of the games.
Chances of spawning close are much higher compared to spawning across the map in summit.
Hence why we see so many of these short, and very badly structured games going on at the moment.
I'd rather play a 20 hour dead boring NS2 marathon game, than being spawncamped/spawncamping the opposite team every other game.
I have yet to see the devs even thinking about welded vents.
Also, spawning close in a map like summit, marines cant really go directly for hiverush, cause they have to manually build extractors to not lose the game. Aliens can just keep pushing marine start with almost no penalty, no one have to build harvesters, drifters and infestation handles that, and the marine base is so close, so why not keep rushing it?
These problems are pretty obvious if you played the game more than a few hours.
Or are you telling me that you never see skulks completely ignoring marines and going directly for the CC, dieing, coming back 15 seconds after?
If your awnser to that is yes, I don't believe you.

_Necro_

Sure, I did CC rushing myself. But I think that the solution shouldn't be to prevent near spawning. Maybe have a server option to configure the chance of that event (with a lowered default value) but don't get rid of it. It ads variation and 2 or 3 sentries can stop CC omnomnomming. The problem is, that the marines lose the late game if they choose to build robot factory first.

So what I say is: There has to be ways and tactics for the marines to win a round with an hive extremely near, because this situation adds variation to the gameplay. You can't come up with your standard tactics. Yes it should be fair. But I think this can be balanced with the right choices. But don't prevent near spawning just because you cant imagine a way to make it work. We need variation. Not every game has to go on for hours. Not every com has to use the exact same build order.

To be productive: What about changing the egg-spawn algorithm, to make such rushs costly? For example: Have you tried to play on a 24Players server? On this, you feel the slow egg spawning (it doesn't scale with the player count. Hi Harimaru. ;)) So after your second rush on the CC you spend more than one minute waiting for respawn. Besides that this mechanic is obviously broken, it prevents CC rushs and gives time to the marines to expand on crowded servers.

So maybe, if we tweak the egg spawn algo, to make it count per player not for the whole team, we can overcome this two issues at once.
So what can we try? Changing the system so that every player has its own spawn counter. After the first spawn, it is at X = 5 seconds. For every 30sec the alien is alive, the X decreases by one second. If the alien dies, it respawns after X seconds and the counter is raised by 10 seconds.
So you can rush 2 or 3 times before getting ridiculous high spawning times. But don't interfere with the spawning times of other players, as it is now.

or an alternative:

Make the respawn time higher and give the alien commander the option to buy eggs for team res or energy. So he has to choose if he wants to rush the CC or expand.

In both cases the marines only have to hold out the first rushs (That is possible if the team focus on defending the CC). After that the aliens <b>should have</b> in any form a huge disadvantage for trying this rush-tactic. It is possible to achieve this, by tweaking some mechanics.

NurEinMensch

The idea of random spawns is to have the games being somewhat, well, random and not exactly the same every single time.

kingmob

Put it in the mappers hands.

Allow them to exclude a point from being a random spawn point.

Also allow them to index the spawn points.
The spawns usually go in a circle anyways.

The indexing would allow the game to NOT pick a spawn right next door.

Example:

If a map indexed spawns 0 1 2 3 4
and the marine spawn is chosen at 2
and the alien spawn is chosen at 3
the alien spawn could be either chosen again ...or simply add 1 so it is 4.

Yuuki

The right way of doing it is to let the mapper provide a list of valid spawn pairs and to draw randomly from it. It was already suggested when random spawn was first introduced.

Bacillus

<!--quoteo(post=1903058:date=Feb 14 2012, 04:59 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 14 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The right way of doing it is to let the mapper provide a list of valid spawn pairs and to draw randomly from it. It was already suggested when random spawn was first introduced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I've understood, it's roughly the case right now.

I'm personally more worried about how the dev team seems to have decided to build the game and official maps around such a wide variety of spawn possibilities. It's a massive amount of complexity to contol for any game, not to speak of one that's supposed to be out in 6 months and has as much to do as NS2 has.

Yuuki

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as I've understood, it's roughly the case right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't think so, for each tech you can specify independently if it's marine, aliens, both or none, right ?

Now if you want cross-map spawn on summit how do you do it ?

With the pair list it's very easy, indexing the tech points from 1 to 4 clockwise :

(1,3)
(3,1)
(2,4)
(4,2)

And if you want the original static spawn configuration to be more likely you just add a bunch of (1,3) to the list.

Bacillus

<!--quoteo(post=1903075:date=Feb 14 2012, 04:50 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 14 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think so, for each tech you can specify independently if it's marine, aliens, both or none, right ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, ok. I understood it was in, but I guess not. It definitely seems like the very least that should be done.

Harimau

+1

Squart

well i have just read all of this thread and i have to say yes i dont like random sapwns myself in summit, but i dont know how to implement this beter neither.

So as was mentioned a couple of times there are a lot of different ways to create the map now with the knowledge of random spawns and im excited to see all of them in different maps beeing used :).

Since i cant map with the spark editor atm im going over the possibilities by our own map. And I personally like the idea of 2 random spawns per team in our map.

But another thing i realy would like in NS2 is the idea of swalk:


<i>"I like the idea of vents being opened/closed, maybe this could relate to the powernodes?
So;
A socketed powernode would have open vents.
A powered room would have closed vents.
Unpowered room would have open vents.

Maybe require welders to weld the vents after a room is powered.
Have welded vents in/near marine spawns from gamestart. "
</i>

+++1 to this idea pls implement this :)

it just needs to be an entity like the door that you can place as a mapper in front of any vent you want so that the map designer can decide if he wants this sort of thing in his map or not

Solitario

I really like the random start position! You can play the same map again and again with a totally different gaming experience!
Disabling too near spawn positions sounds imho like the best compromiss between random and fixed start pos.

IronHorse

but, solitario, this is what Harimau and myself have been arguing over for PAGES in here...
in regards to summit, it just doesnt work well as it was not designed for it:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/bbRHH.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />


it also fails horribly in regards to vents in bases not being weldable, such as in Tram.
it does work well in say, Mineshaft though.

LV426-Colonist

As far as summit goes; if random spawns are going to stay it definitely needs some fixin.

swalk

<!--quoteo(post=1904952:date=Feb 20 2012, 02:41 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 20 2012, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it does work well in say, Mineshaft though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It didn't work very well with random spawns on mineshaft either.
Crushing and Ore are right next to Central.
Meaning; that if aliens spawn in either of those places, Central will be near impossible for marines to secure and hold.
In the gathers we play with static spawns on mineshaft already, and the change is really an improvement.
Anyway, static spawns will be going into the official mineshaft soon it seems, and the flow of the map will become much better.
Hopefully summit and tram will follow that lead. The current random spawns are a real mess in terms of gameflow.
On tram I would like to see aliens spawning in server room or warehouse randomly, it would fit nicely with the base-to-base distances.

Wheeee

<!--quoteo(post=1905368:date=Feb 21 2012, 01:08 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 21 2012, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It didn't work very well with random spawns on mineshaft either.
Crushing and Ore are right next to Central.
Meaning; that if aliens spawn in either of those places, Central will be near impossible for marines to secure and hold.
In the gathers we play with static spawns on mineshaft already, and the change is really an improvement.
Anyway, static spawns will be going into the official mineshaft soon it seems, and the flow of the map will become much better.
Hopefully summit and tram will follow that lead. The current random spawns are a real mess in terms of gameflow.
On tram I would like to see aliens spawning in server room or warehouse randomly, it would fit nicely with the base-to-base distances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

mineshaft in general is a bit unbalanced in terms of gameplay. cart tunnel and cavern feel severely underutilized. it would help the viability of random spawns a lot if central drilling and cart tunnel/cavern placement was swapped.

also mineshaft needs more vents.

IronHorse

i really hope we dont lose random spawns.. it really adds so much fresh gameplay and strategies.
sounds like issues you mention swalk could be addressed in the map design to adjust to the random spawns.

Argathor

<!--quoteo(post=1905376:date=Feb 21 2012, 05:44 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 21 2012, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i really hope we dont lose random spawns.. it really adds so much fresh gameplay and strategies.
sounds like issues you mention swalk could be addressed in the map design to adjust to the random spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That has always been our point, random spawns ONLY work on maps designed for them. Both ns2_summit and ns2_mineshaft were designed with fixed spawns.

It will be a great feature in the future, but currently it simply doesn't work.

Grissi

<!--quoteo(post=1905483:date=Feb 21 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Feb 21 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That has always been our point, random spawns ONLY work on maps designed for them. Both ns2_summit and ns2_mineshaft were designed with fixed spawns.

It will be a great feature in the future, but currently it simply doesn't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kinda the answer to all this argument about random spawns, been said many times already.

The random spawn feature is awesome and I would love to play on a map that has complete random spawn and works very well. However the maps we are currently using were node made with random spawn in mind and thats the reason they don't reall work with it.

It is also be a nice touch on the gameplay to have some maps with fixed spawn and other maps with random spawns.

Argathor

I think the worst thing to come from all this, has been that ns2_summit was changed (in what I assume to be a knee jerk reaction to random spawns not working well) by adding more vents (most importantly around Sub Access). This has now damaged the balance of the map with fixed spawns, forcing people to use older versions of the map if they want to use fixed spawns.

So currently, the map is badly balanced for fixed AND random spawns. Which does not make <b>any</b> sense at all.

IronHorse

well i'm sure they are aware of it, to include psyk0man.

<!--quoteo(post=1905569:date=Feb 21 2012, 01:45 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Feb 21 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, I think we should at least try fixed distance even on Summit. Sure you know where the other team would be based on your own base, but that was the stale (but balanced) gameplay before random spawning. Who knows, it could be a good compromise.

You'd still get a change of location now and then, which helps keep gameplay experience on said map fresh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i think this is the solution in the mean time

Argathor

<!--quoteo(post=1905600:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 21 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well i'm sure they are aware of it, to include psyk0man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can't just assume people are aware of issues and hope things get fixed. The entire usefulness of these forums is to express ideas/perspectives/etc that might be different to those of the developers (and for players to vent/troll on of course).

<!--quoteo(post=1905600:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 21 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think this is the solution in the mean time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not even remotely a <b>'solution'</b>. Thanks to recent changes ns2_summit is not even balanced for fixed spawns (Atrium - Sub Access) let alone fixed distance spawns (Flight Control - Data Core, etc).

There are only really two realistic options as I see it:

1) Remove the recent vent changes and return to fixed spawns (Atrium - Sub Access).

2) Make vast and significant changes, probably completely revamping the map, to make it work with random spawns.

ns2_summit is a fantastic map and a great achievement. We should all be content with this and use it to its potential (option 1). UWE (and the community) can then make maps in the future that are designed around random spawns. Having random spawns running as a test was great, we know it works. It is time to go back to maps working as they were originally designed to do.

IronHorse

i disagree, i think that it is balanced for fixed distance spawns as long as we can weld vents.
and i'm not really assuming when psyk0man has acknowledged the issues summit has in regards to this thread:

<!--quoteo(post=1895852:date=Jan 19 2012, 11:30 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jan 19 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, tram and summit use random spawns to test that feature. They are the only maps played and it needs to be tested properly to get some feedback that can be used for the other offical maps in developement aswell. It doesn't mean that the issues in these maps won't be adressed eventually in which ever way.
Random spawns adds so much to the map and game that it's worth trying to balance a map around it, although you guys are certainly right that it's more difficult to balance a map around it that wasn't designed with random spawns in mind.
Anyway, you make some good points regarding summit and I appreciate the feedback. Thank you.

Also I never said I don't think there is a problem and Flayra's post obviously implies that issues will be adressed eventually. As you guys mentioned it's kinda fun for public play, that doesn't mean the competitive side will be ignored on that matter, although it seems some take it that way judging by comments like this:


I know you are very passionate about clan play and that is a good thing, but comments like this just lead to being ignored or taken less seriously, which would be a shame because every feedback is valuable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i'm for fixing the problem, instead of abandoning a great feature. but hey, i'm not the mapper.

Argathor

<!--quoteo(post=1905733:date=Feb 22 2012, 05:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 22 2012, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i disagree, i think that it is balanced for fixed distance spawns as long as we can weld vents.
and i'm not really assuming when psyk0man has acknowledged the issues summit has in regards to this thread:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing the previous quotes showed was the lack of understanding. Hence attempting to balance summit around random spawns and making it even worse for both random and fixed spawns.

<!--quoteo(post=1905733:date=Feb 22 2012, 05:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 22 2012, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'm for fixing the problem, instead of abandoning a great feature. but hey, i'm not the mapper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The feature is in the game and staying, the only discussion is whether or not specific maps have random spawns enabled.

psyk0man has made a truely great map. No-one can take that away from him. Sadly, in that specific quote, he is <b>HUGELY</b> underestimating the task of balancing ns2_summit for random spawns. Expecting anyone to turn a fixed spawns map into random spawns is unreasonable, as the flow of the maps need to be completely different.

Mineshaft is the unique case where it will not be so difficult (to use partially random spawns), as most of the spawn locations are stacked at each end of the map. Meaning that no matter where each team spawns the flow of the map remains mostly the same.