<!--quoteo(post=1896774:date=Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is kind of how it works already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I had only played maybe 3 games as aliens when I posted, and no doubt, it does work like that!
<!--quoteo(post=1896774:date=Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1896757:date=:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and it should show an outline (or filled shape) where clouds are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What do you mean by this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant you should still be able to see lerk clouds but in still see marines and geometry right through them. The reason is this: I use lerk clouds as visual cover a lot, but I often die flicking vision on and off to locate the cloud.
<!--quoteo(post=1896774:date=Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... my suggestion is that we use twiliteblue's vision mod (or *<u>something like it</u>*) as the default mode. You can see the map clearly and regularly - actually, you can see it more clearly thanks to the outlined edges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1897127:date=Jan 24 2012, 02:25 PM:name=Pekerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pekerman @ Jan 24 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i still prefer the ns1 version <img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/eug4cg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
i think the AV should make only the models brighter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noway, man. I'm sure if we had fancy shaders back then, it would look entirely different and more similar to what we have now. Very nostalgic, but not proper.
I agree the alien vision mode takes too much away. Applying a two color filter to an environment as dynamic and immersive as NS2 is disappointing. There can still be disadvantages of alien vision, just don't make it look so...boring.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2012
I think a good example of a working vision mode would be the visors from the metroid prime series. <a href="http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Visors" target="_blank">http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Visors</a>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/rgOyL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> The center of the screen being enhanced and the peripheral vision area being darkened and dulled out. Let's you find people but makes fighting with it on unfavorable.
- Alien vision doesn't need a downside, especially not one that makes it crap to use in combat - the whole point why ppl have alien vision on is because it helps you in combat... Compared to ns1, ns2 is pitch black. (look at that ns1 screenshot, its like playing with r_mode unlit in ns2)
Whats the problem in having a vision that compleatly makes everything look different - AvP2 had it too... nobody cared... (and you also had it on nearly 100% of the time as alien/predator) But whatever - current vision is kinda a placeholder/wip (same with blink vision, and invisibility), it might change compleatly.
Just a thought- what if AV decreased in intensity the more you attack?
By decrease, I mean the highlighting would fade out a bit when you attack, and slowly increase again; the highlight on entities (Marines and Buildings) wouldn't fade out as much.
So, eventually you'll completely 'turn off' Alien Vision. Although, without pressing F, the hi-lite would just increase again.
Simply put, an Alien Vision "energy" bar. You'd still be able to have it on all the time.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1895502:date=Jan 18 2012, 07:36 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 18 2012, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5880/ns2darkvision02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Quick n Dirty Alien Vision Mod</a> This was using 10% opacity, iirc.
And here was the original discussion thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113819&view=findpost&p=1859407" target="_blank">Alien Sight</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make this vision activated by being in rooms without power and entering vents. Like the marine power node is interfering with the alien vision. It would provide an awareness bonus and ease of navigation in lesser lit territories.
The power node being destroyed in battle would be that much scarier to marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1898083:date=Jan 29 2012, 11:53 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jan 29 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not make this vision activated by being in rooms without power and entering vents. Like the marine power node is interfering with the alien vision. It would provide an awareness bonus and ease of navigation in lesser lit territories.
The power node being destroyed in battle would be that much scarier to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^- Like 2 try that idea as well.
On a side note, if infestation is meant to mess with lights in the final form (like turn it into an orange tint and darken rooms), perhaps AV can also auto-activate in infested areas like the main Hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1898077:date=Jan 30 2012, 02:58 AM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Jan 30 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Raises environmental awareness when ambushing, decreases it in combat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why though? What good is that?
People use alien vision mostly because it's useful in combat (moreso than for environmental navigation, though that's great too). Aliens already have a natural disadvantage in combat because they are primarily melee, and alien vision succeeds in balancing it, especially in darker, powernode-less (i.e. territorial) areas. I think that's ideal.
I like to look at alien vision as kind of like synesthesia: You have standard vision, which provides the basic scenery. This is overlayed by your... sense of smell (or infrared vision?) perhaps (distinguishing between flesh-and-blood marines, and metallic/mechanical marine structures, from the scenery), seen as different colours. This is further overlayed by an active sonar-like ability that lets you easily perceive and visualise depth, seen as geometric outlines.
@Iept: Yeah, I had the same idea, or similar anyway: the opacity would scale with the light level in the room. Darker: More opaque (less transparent), Lighter: Less opaque (more transparent). But I'm not sure it's even necessary anymore, given the implementation: if you have reduced opacity, the effect of alien vision is <b>already</b> less pronounced in lighter areas with respect to the rest of the scenery, and more pronounced in darker areas with respect to the rest of the scenery.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2012
Well what I was suggesting is that if it's such a useful part of combat and pretty much everyone uses it, it should be automatic instead of having to press the flashlight key.
And it's a system that uses the power grid to balance it's use instead of light. And the reduced opacity is because it's forced.
Powered areas: Nanites are interfering with alien vision. Unpowered areas: Bacteria floods the room for 10% opacity alien vision (Standing on infestation 5%?)
Essentially it's hivesight 2.0 using bacteria for vision instead of sonar. <a href="http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduck/oldmanual/alien_gridlock.html" target="_blank">http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduc...n_gridlock.html</a> <a href="http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduck/oldmanual/front_nanogridlock.html" target="_blank">http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduc...nogridlock.html</a>
I want to see textures. I want to see marines clearly. I want to see which way people are facing clearly. I want to see objects clearly. I want to see items clearly. I want to see spores and projectiles. I want to see a difference in light/dark rooms. I want it to be optional.
It's dumb that in order to take advantage of spores, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see where the spores are... It's dumb that in order to take advantage of the dark, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see if its dark...
@Iept: It's just that doing it that way means that it's dependent upon the map (and therefore the mapper). If the mapper chooses to have any low lighting areas/corners even when powered, then you're screwed.
<!--quoteo(post=1898218:date=Jan 31 2012, 03:14 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 31 2012, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to see textures. I want to see marines clearly. I want to see which way people are facing clearly. I want to see objects clearly. I want to see items clearly. I want to see spores and projectiles. I want to see a difference in light/dark rooms. I want it to be optional.
It's dumb that in order to take advantage of spores, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see where the spores are... It's dumb that in order to take advantage of the dark, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see if its dark...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This <!--quoteo(post=1895502:date=Jan 18 2012, 08:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 18 2012, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Posting the screenshot from and link to twiliteblue's vision mod here so people know right away what we're talking about: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5880/ns2darkvision02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Quick n Dirty Alien Vision Mod</a> This was using 10% opacity, iirc.
And here was the original discussion thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113819&view=findpost&p=1859407" target="_blank">Alien Sight</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->satisfies all your criteria.
It's just that I see very little point in the "optional" criteria. Even "automatic" is unnecessary.
It's closer, for sure. The only textures I can see are the ones around the power node though which is the prettiest part of this picture. However, 85% of the screen is just green outlines which is pretty boring. I doubt anybody would recognise that resource node without its smoke. Generally, I have pretty much no information directly in front of me, except a lonely and faint line which is my only depth perception clue. What's behind the massive turbine thingy, for example? Is it even a massive turbine thingy in the first place? How high is the ceiling? These aren't questions I should have to be <i>working out</i>.
Don't get me wrong, I think twilite's mod is a big improvement and opacity is the key. I just don't see why my whole experience has to be a tinted-mindfudge. I also don't see why it should be forced, especially if people don't like seeing everything through yellow/green puke glasses. I never thought I gave a rat's arse about textures until I was subjected to alien vision!
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
The current "sonar" alien vision doesn't behave like its name implied at all. Its shading intensity appears to be low at close range, and intensified for distant objects.
I made a mockup using a light based simulation of "sonar", which improves depth perception. It's not ideal, as I feel that alien vision should also color friends and foes differently. <img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/NS22011-11-1920-43-36-73.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1898382:date=Jan 31 2012, 09:06 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 31 2012, 09:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's closer, for sure. The only textures I can see<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because this is what the room looks like without alien vision on: <img src="http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8609/ns2darkvision01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Made a GIF: <a href="http://gickr.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://gickr.com/results3/anim_32a836a4-b12e-39c4-e136-ec612c9bc707.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
The sonar mockup looks positively freaky... maybe if the brightness (?) is toned down a bit and an organic iris-like overlay is added, the view would look less technologically enhanced?
Sorta like what the Evolve Menu has going for it (blurred sides of the screen).
I wish they would just stop playing about with light/dark in the first place. That room might as well be pitch black. I hate that I either have to be playing in alien-vision mode or residentevil-flashlight mode to get anything done in those rooms. I get that they want it to be scary and atmospheric et cetera, but multiplayer games cease to be scary after a few hours of playing anyway. I've already lost the ominous feeling of going into a dark room - it's just tedious now.
Likewise, novelty vision modes like those found in splinter-cell and co. only work because they're situational-effective. You don't need to go into the mode permanently and the game is finite anyway so its fun life-expectancy isn't exhausted. When you do need to maximise advantage (which is every online game that exists and also one of the reasons why splinter-cell online was so ######), then the mode becomes old, boring and even cumbersome. You don't want a situation where players have to choose between the optimally advantageous strategy or the optimally aesthetic environment.
I fully expect the darkness to be scaled down for competitive gaming or maybe people will only play maps designed in such a way that they can be SEEN. Basically, the whole darkness mechanic will be avoided as much as it can, either through gamma hacks and the like or mass opt-outs. In fact, I can tell you, as probable admin of ENS2L, that I will personally push for it.
Well, I think rooms are only pitch black like that when the lights first go out (the power node is just taken down) so it's temporary: you get eye-bleeding red after that, it's fun. :)
The reason I'm pushing for that vision mode (or something like it: the basic features are, outline geometries and entities, add colour contrast between different entities and the environment, and maybe enhance depth perception) is that serious players will want to keep it on all the time. So the only barrier to player use is "make it look good" (also any disadvantages like not being able to see particle effects). And if you overcome those barriers (and you should!), then you might as well always have it on anyway, so make it the default, and not an option.
This is a tangent, really, but are you certain that darkness cannot be used as a multiplayer game mechanic? The way I envision it (see what I did there), darkness becomes genuine alien territory, since enemy tracking and peripheral awareness becomes more difficult for marines since it is dependent on the cone of their flashlights. So darkness basically puts marine play into hard mode, I guess. One way you might make it easier for marines, to balance it, is to... make the aliens more reflective. So passing over an alien with your light will make them shimmer, and therefore temporarily highlight them.
I'm willing to accept your permament vision only if it were designed perfectly. I'm sceptical that it can be done to everyone's tastes which is why I think it should be optional. We agree in principal though, I think.
Darkness definitely works as a multiplayer game mechanic but that's not to say it should be used, nor does it say anything that useful really. The issue of darkness is one I find hard to argue against because it works well enough. However, I could just as easily argue for massive falling blocks of goo that hamper marine movement in alien rooms - it would be a working mechanic assuming it was balanced and would be in keeping with the alien theme. The important question to ask is whether it's any fun, not whether it's "cool" and functional. I happen to be of the opinion that not being able to see things is <i>not fun</i> but maybe i'm in the minority. I'm always quite shocked that people are in favour of not being able to see and I suspect that all the atmosphere junkies we find patrolling the forums are the kinds of players that will move on to bigger and better things as soon as a new "cool" game is released. The NS2 team really needs to decide what its target audience is because it's just trying to be the best of all worlds. Maybe it already has and i'm just not it!
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898593:date=Feb 1 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 1 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm willing to accept your permament vision only if it were designed perfectly. I'm sceptical that it can be done to everyone's tastes which is why I think it should be optional. We agree in principal though, I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Co-signed.
<!--quoteo(post=1898593:date=Feb 1 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 1 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The important question to ask is whether it's any fun, not whether it's "cool" and functional.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the crux of the matter and we've already been over it in multiple other threads. Empirical data clearly suggests that bright maps are more popular than dark maps, across all multiplayer games. I'm not one to argue the merits of popularism, but this seems like a pretty clear indicator of darkness not being conducive to fun multiplayer gameplay.
Using darkness as a gameplay mechanic also bumps into the problem of cheating -- it is extremely easy to make your game/screen brighter than it was designed to be by the game developers, and it is essentially undetectable save for LAN play.
Edit: As I've also said when discussing this topic in other threads, the above does not however mean that there shouldn't be dark maps. There is a significant part of the player base that enjoy darkness as a gameplay mechanic, even if only in concept. The problem arises when it is forced as a gameplay mechanic across the board (the powergrid system). So basically what I'm saying is this: Darkness as a gameplay mechanic should be decided by the mapper, not the game. The game itself should be as neutral as possible, to provide balanced gameplay regardless and to give both groups what they want. If it's possible to let everyone have their cake and eat it -- why not?
How would you two, personally, like to see alien vision look?
I think I see the real problem with darkness (and other mechanics in Natural Selection, such as cloaking): it's that it's a binary game mechanic. There are two states: light (everyone can see) or dark (marines cannot see). In the first case, this is a level playing field (sort of, not really considering melee vs range here), that's why the game is (relatively) fun. The second case is almost certainly an unbalanced playing field. You could say that the second case helps to balance the melee vs range issue, but the fact remains that it is binary: so either aliens have the advantage, or marines have the advantage. A better approach (on paper) would be to have a unary game mechanic (everyone always plays on the same field), or a ternary game mechanic (each side can gain an advantage): in the latter approach, the perfectly level playing field is the primary playing field (and accounts for the vast majority of the playtime), while the secondary playing fields only grant a team a small, temporary and reversible advantage (to tip the scales). The question is, how would you actually approach such a system in practice (edit: while preserving the asymmetry of the teams)?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Yeah, that's a reasonable analysis.
You could also see it from the point of multiplayer gaming as a competitive activity. Regardless of whether you play in a organized team or just join a public server every once in a while, multiplayer gaming is still primarily a competitive activity. There's also a significant social component of course, but social interaction is in many ways itself a competitive activity.
It seems reasonable to assume that in any competitive activity, in order to create a feeling of having fun, it is essential that the player feels he has a "fighting chance". One doesn't necessarily have to win, or even be any good, but the player has to believe that he had a chance to begin with. Conversely, believing that it was hopeless to begin with, that no matter what your actions were during the activity you would still end up losing in the end, is very frustrating for the player, and will likely make him avoid the activity in the future.
From that point of view, any gameplay mechanic that removes player control, that put the player into a situation where his actions don't have any influence over his performance in the activity, should be anathema for any game developer that wants to create a successful multiplayer game. There are many degrees of this of course, with the scale moving from gameplay mechanics which only slightly inhibit the player, to gameplay mechanics which render him completely helpless.
Cloaking is almost at the extreme end of rendering the player helpless on that scale, at least that is the experience the individual marine that encounters a cloaked alien will be subjected to. Darkness is more towards the middle of that scale, as the player's senses aren't rendered entirely useless, but instead made less effective. In both cases the problem is that the player cannot act against that which he cannot see. In the end the result is more or less the same -- most players experience less fun while playing against cloaking and on dark maps, eventually turning into a trend where dark maps and the upgrade path that leads to cloaking are for the most part avoided.
As for the alien vision, I'm not entirely sure. In order to make it viable as the default (and only available) vision mode for aliens, it would have to be very subdued. That means no crazy colors, no techno lines around all the edges of the map and no dulling of texture visibility. What's left is probably some sort of bright outline around players and structres, which improves visibility and help with identification of enemies and friendlies without ruining the visuals or inducing eye fatigue. If you do that however, the part of the playerbase who want some sort of "AWESOME MODE" type vision will be left disgruntled.
I think the light/darkness issue is fundamentally broken because in order to make it a game mechanic, you need to make one side suffer from the effects of darkness which means marines won't ever overcome the pitfalls of looking at a dark screen (which isn't fun). My stance on alien vision is almost moot because of this and I only raise it to answer a small portion of what is otherwise a big problem. See Fana's last paragraph for my opinion, also.
Regarding binary, unary and ternary mechanics, I would argue that we have enough of it already through map geometry. Geometry, combined with the asymmetry of the teams' movement patterns, attack range and general play-style is enough to provide a genuine ternary game mechanic. It's subtle, open to mapper's discretion (and therefore, to public opinion) and is not a simple A or B conundrum. As both a marine or alien, I need to make the most of a room's shape but I don't simply walk into an "alien room" or a "marine room".
I think, in the same vein, that brightness should be controlled by the mapper too. If he so wishes, the mapper can create particularly dark corners/areas, luminous lighting and so on. It is then up to the mapper whether to make locations u/bi/ter-nary or not. Truthfully, I'm not entirely sure that the light/dark rooms are as a result of a gameplay/mechanic decision anyway. I've only heard references to it making the room "feel" alien or contested etc. It seems to me that it was introduced more for immersion/atmospheric purposes than anything else. This is already achieved through infestation and alien structure spam though so I don't think its necessary.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
In the end it doesn't really matter if the darkness is caused by a "gameplay/mechanic decision" or if it's just a byproduct of aesthetic choices, when it's forced across the board through the power outage/emergency lighting caused by power nodes going down.
<!--quoteo(post=1898851:date=Feb 2 2012, 04:40 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems reasonable to assume that in any competitive activity, in order to create a feeling of having fun, it is essential that the player feels he has a "fighting chance". One doesn't necessarily have to win, or even be any good, but the player has to believe that he had a chance to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like fighting against a Fade? ;)
There are other game mechanics who break this point much more bad. To be forced to use the flashlight for 10 seconds don't make me feel like I have no chance against incoming aliens. And I could also avoid this area for the short time. Besides i could have stopped the alien chewing the powernode, so it was essentially my fault, that i have altered the battlefield to my disadvantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1898851:date=Feb 2 2012, 04:40 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the alien vision, I'm not entirely sure. In order to make it viable as the default (and only available) vision mode for aliens, it would have to be very subdued. That means no crazy colors, no techno lines around all the edges of the map and no dulling of texture visibility. What's left is probably some sort of bright outline around players and structures, which improves visibility and help with identification of enemies and friendlies without ruining the visuals or inducing eye fatigue. If you do that however, the part of the playerbase who want some sort of "AWESOME MODE" type vision will be left disgruntled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true. I'm all with Harimau that the AV does not need a disadvantage (beside the glowing eyes, which is cool and only a very little disadvantage). I also understand the ones who want to see the beautiful textures of a living hive and its surrounding buildings. So we need an AV that has the combat advantages for the aliens, but don't uglynate the environment.
We don't need disadvantages to force the players to look at beautiful textures. So, don't treat the symptoms. Treat the problem! But we shouldn't force the player to ugly graphic as well. So what to do?
Solution: <ul><li>Only outline and color Marines and Marine buildings</li><li>Only outline geometry if it is dark (maybe the right opacity can do this already. Harimau: can you make the same .gif in a light area, so we can see if it uglynates the visuals / textures of an hive room or something?)</li><li>Make particles transparent (but in any case visible) and / or make the outlines of marines and buildings shine through</li><li>If it does not make everything look ugly, than make the AV standard "on" but don't make it mandatory. So you can deactivate your glowing eyes for an ambush.</li></ul>
I think this is a compromise that may satisfy everyone.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1900195:date=Feb 6 2012, 06:54 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 6 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are other game mechanics who break this point much more bad. To be forced to use the flashlight for 10 seconds don't make me feel like I have no chance against incoming aliens. And I could also avoid this area for the short time. Besides i could have stopped the alien chewing the powernode, so it was essentially my fault, that i have altered the battlefield to my disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to mention the Commander can drop a scan to light up the area, dispelling most of the darkness.
The aliens have to have a disadvantage of some kind. It's unfair that Marine flashlights give themselves away around corners. At minimum, you might make alien's eyes glow in the dark akin to <img src="http://www.bigshotcamera.org/images/fun/projects/optics/artificialeye/raccoon.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />.
It's not a huge disadvantage, but vision 'givaways' should be mutual.
Comments
I had only played maybe 3 games as aliens when I posted, and no doubt, it does work like that!
<!--quoteo(post=1896774:date=Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1896757:date=:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and it should show an outline (or filled shape) where clouds are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What do you mean by this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant you should still be able to see lerk clouds but in still see marines and geometry right through them. The reason is this: I use lerk clouds as visual cover a lot, but I often die flicking vision on and off to locate the cloud.
<!--quoteo(post=1896774:date=Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... my suggestion is that we use twiliteblue's vision mod (or *<u>something like it</u>*) as the default mode. You can see the map clearly and regularly - actually, you can see it more clearly thanks to the outlined edges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That mod looks fantastic!
i think the AV should make only the models brighter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noway, man. I'm sure if we had fancy shaders back then, it would look entirely different and more similar to what we have now. Very nostalgic, but not proper.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/rgOyL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The center of the screen being enhanced and the peripheral vision area being darkened and dulled out. Let's you find people but makes fighting with it on unfavorable.
Compared to ns1, ns2 is pitch black. (look at that ns1 screenshot, its like playing with r_mode unlit in ns2)
Whats the problem in having a vision that compleatly makes everything look different - AvP2 had it too... nobody cared... (and you also had it on nearly 100% of the time as alien/predator)
But whatever - current vision is kinda a placeholder/wip (same with blink vision, and invisibility), it might change compleatly.
By decrease, I mean the highlighting would fade out a bit when you attack, and slowly increase again; the highlight on entities (Marines and Buildings) wouldn't fade out as much.
So, eventually you'll completely 'turn off' Alien Vision. Although, without pressing F, the hi-lite would just increase again.
Simply put, an Alien Vision "energy" bar. You'd still be able to have it on all the time.
Quick n Dirty Alien Vision Mod</a>
This was using 10% opacity, iirc.
And here was the original discussion thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113819&view=findpost&p=1859407" target="_blank">Alien Sight</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make this vision activated by being in rooms without power and entering vents. Like the marine power node is interfering with the alien vision. It would provide an awareness bonus and ease of navigation in lesser lit territories.
The power node being destroyed in battle would be that much scarier to marines.
The power node being destroyed in battle would be that much scarier to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^- Like 2 try that idea as well.
On a side note, if infestation is meant to mess with lights in the final form (like turn it into an orange tint and darken rooms), perhaps AV can also auto-activate in infested areas like the main Hive.
Why though? What good is that?
People use alien vision mostly because it's useful in combat (moreso than for environmental navigation, though that's great too). Aliens already have a natural disadvantage in combat because they are primarily melee, and alien vision succeeds in balancing it, especially in darker, powernode-less (i.e. territorial) areas. I think that's ideal.
I like to look at alien vision as kind of like synesthesia:
You have standard vision, which provides the basic scenery.
This is overlayed by your... sense of smell (or infrared vision?) perhaps (distinguishing between flesh-and-blood marines, and metallic/mechanical marine structures, from the scenery), seen as different colours.
This is further overlayed by an active sonar-like ability that lets you easily perceive and visualise depth, seen as geometric outlines.
@Iept: Yeah, I had the same idea, or similar anyway: the opacity would scale with the light level in the room. Darker: More opaque (less transparent), Lighter: Less opaque (more transparent).
But I'm not sure it's even necessary anymore, given the implementation: if you have reduced opacity, the effect of alien vision is <b>already</b> less pronounced in lighter areas with respect to the rest of the scenery, and more pronounced in darker areas with respect to the rest of the scenery.
And it's a system that uses the power grid to balance it's use instead of light. And the reduced opacity is because it's forced.
Powered areas: Nanites are interfering with alien vision.
Unpowered areas: Bacteria floods the room for 10% opacity alien vision
(Standing on infestation 5%?)
Essentially it's hivesight 2.0 using bacteria for vision instead of sonar.
<a href="http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduck/oldmanual/alien_gridlock.html" target="_blank">http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduc...n_gridlock.html</a>
<a href="http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduck/oldmanual/front_nanogridlock.html" target="_blank">http://www.lunixmonster.org/hosted/grayduc...nogridlock.html</a>
I want to see marines clearly.
I want to see which way people are facing clearly.
I want to see objects clearly.
I want to see items clearly.
I want to see spores and projectiles.
I want to see a difference in light/dark rooms.
I want it to be optional.
It's dumb that in order to take advantage of spores, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see where the spores are...
It's dumb that in order to take advantage of the dark, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see if its dark...
<!--quoteo(post=1898218:date=Jan 31 2012, 03:14 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 31 2012, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to see textures.
I want to see marines clearly.
I want to see which way people are facing clearly.
I want to see objects clearly.
I want to see items clearly.
I want to see spores and projectiles.
I want to see a difference in light/dark rooms.
I want it to be optional.
It's dumb that in order to take advantage of spores, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see where the spores are...
It's dumb that in order to take advantage of the dark, I have to go into a mode that makes it impossible to see if its dark...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
<!--quoteo(post=1895502:date=Jan 18 2012, 08:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 18 2012, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Posting the screenshot from and link to twiliteblue's vision mod here so people know right away what we're talking about:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5880/ns2darkvision02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Quick n Dirty Alien Vision Mod</a>
This was using 10% opacity, iirc.
And here was the original discussion thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113819&view=findpost&p=1859407" target="_blank">Alien Sight</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->satisfies all your criteria.
It's just that I see very little point in the "optional" criteria. Even "automatic" is unnecessary.
Don't get me wrong, I think twilite's mod is a big improvement and opacity is the key. I just don't see why my whole experience has to be a tinted-mindfudge. I also don't see why it should be forced, especially if people don't like seeing everything through yellow/green puke glasses. I never thought I gave a rat's arse about textures until I was subjected to alien vision!
I made a mockup using a light based simulation of "sonar", which improves depth perception. It's not ideal, as I feel that alien vision should also color friends and foes differently.
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/NS22011-11-1920-43-36-73.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
That's because this is what the room looks like without alien vision on:
<img src="http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8609/ns2darkvision01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Compare:
<img src="http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5880/ns2darkvision02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Made a GIF:
<a href="http://gickr.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://gickr.com/results3/anim_32a836a4-b12e-39c4-e136-ec612c9bc707.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Sorta like what the Evolve Menu has going for it (blurred sides of the screen).
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/images/c/c8/Evolve_menu.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I wish they would just stop playing about with light/dark in the first place. That room might as well be pitch black. I hate that I either have to be playing in alien-vision mode or residentevil-flashlight mode to get anything done in those rooms. I get that they want it to be scary and atmospheric et cetera, but multiplayer games cease to be scary after a few hours of playing anyway. I've already lost the ominous feeling of going into a dark room - it's just tedious now.
Likewise, novelty vision modes like those found in splinter-cell and co. only work because they're situational-effective. You don't need to go into the mode permanently and the game is finite anyway so its fun life-expectancy isn't exhausted. When you do need to maximise advantage (which is every online game that exists and also one of the reasons why splinter-cell online was so ######), then the mode becomes old, boring and even cumbersome. You don't want a situation where players have to choose between the optimally advantageous strategy or the optimally aesthetic environment.
I fully expect the darkness to be scaled down for competitive gaming or maybe people will only play maps designed in such a way that they can be SEEN. Basically, the whole darkness mechanic will be avoided as much as it can, either through gamma hacks and the like or mass opt-outs. In fact, I can tell you, as probable admin of ENS2L, that I will personally push for it.
The reason I'm pushing for that vision mode (or something like it: the basic features are, outline geometries and entities, add colour contrast between different entities and the environment, and maybe enhance depth perception) is that serious players will want to keep it on all the time. So the only barrier to player use is "make it look good" (also any disadvantages like not being able to see particle effects). And if you overcome those barriers (and you should!), then you might as well always have it on anyway, so make it the default, and not an option.
This is a tangent, really, but are you certain that darkness cannot be used as a multiplayer game mechanic? The way I envision it (see what I did there), darkness becomes genuine alien territory, since enemy tracking and peripheral awareness becomes more difficult for marines since it is dependent on the cone of their flashlights. So darkness basically puts marine play into hard mode, I guess. One way you might make it easier for marines, to balance it, is to... make the aliens more reflective. So passing over an alien with your light will make them shimmer, and therefore temporarily highlight them.
At least, on a team vs team level, it works.
Darkness definitely works as a multiplayer game mechanic but that's not to say it should be used, nor does it say anything that useful really. The issue of darkness is one I find hard to argue against because it works well enough. However, I could just as easily argue for massive falling blocks of goo that hamper marine movement in alien rooms - it would be a working mechanic assuming it was balanced and would be in keeping with the alien theme. The important question to ask is whether it's any fun, not whether it's "cool" and functional. I happen to be of the opinion that not being able to see things is <i>not fun</i> but maybe i'm in the minority. I'm always quite shocked that people are in favour of not being able to see and I suspect that all the atmosphere junkies we find patrolling the forums are the kinds of players that will move on to bigger and better things as soon as a new "cool" game is released. The NS2 team really needs to decide what its target audience is because it's just trying to be the best of all worlds. Maybe it already has and i'm just not it!
Co-signed.
<!--quoteo(post=1898593:date=Feb 1 2012, 02:19 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 1 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The important question to ask is whether it's any fun, not whether it's "cool" and functional.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the crux of the matter and we've already been over it in multiple other threads. Empirical data clearly suggests that bright maps are more popular than dark maps, across all multiplayer games. I'm not one to argue the merits of popularism, but this seems like a pretty clear indicator of darkness not being conducive to fun multiplayer gameplay.
Using darkness as a gameplay mechanic also bumps into the problem of cheating -- it is extremely easy to make your game/screen brighter than it was designed to be by the game developers, and it is essentially undetectable save for LAN play.
Edit: As I've also said when discussing this topic in other threads, the above does not however mean that there shouldn't be dark maps. There is a significant part of the player base that enjoy darkness as a gameplay mechanic, even if only in concept. The problem arises when it is forced as a gameplay mechanic across the board (the powergrid system). So basically what I'm saying is this: Darkness as a gameplay mechanic should be decided by the mapper, not the game. The game itself should be as neutral as possible, to provide balanced gameplay regardless and to give both groups what they want. If it's possible to let everyone have their cake and eat it -- why not?
I think I see the real problem with darkness (and other mechanics in Natural Selection, such as cloaking): it's that it's a binary game mechanic. There are two states: light (everyone can see) or dark (marines cannot see). In the first case, this is a level playing field (sort of, not really considering melee vs range here), that's why the game is (relatively) fun. The second case is almost certainly an unbalanced playing field. You could say that the second case helps to balance the melee vs range issue, but the fact remains that it is binary: so either aliens have the advantage, or marines have the advantage. A better approach (on paper) would be to have a unary game mechanic (everyone always plays on the same field), or a ternary game mechanic (each side can gain an advantage): in the latter approach, the perfectly level playing field is the primary playing field (and accounts for the vast majority of the playtime), while the secondary playing fields only grant a team a small, temporary and reversible advantage (to tip the scales). The question is, how would you actually approach such a system in practice (edit: while preserving the asymmetry of the teams)?
You could also see it from the point of multiplayer gaming as a competitive activity. Regardless of whether you play in a organized team or just join a public server every once in a while, multiplayer gaming is still primarily a competitive activity. There's also a significant social component of course, but social interaction is in many ways itself a competitive activity.
It seems reasonable to assume that in any competitive activity, in order to create a feeling of having fun, it is essential that the player feels he has a "fighting chance". One doesn't necessarily have to win, or even be any good, but the player has to believe that he had a chance to begin with. Conversely, believing that it was hopeless to begin with, that no matter what your actions were during the activity you would still end up losing in the end, is very frustrating for the player, and will likely make him avoid the activity in the future.
From that point of view, any gameplay mechanic that removes player control, that put the player into a situation where his actions don't have any influence over his performance in the activity, should be anathema for any game developer that wants to create a successful multiplayer game. There are many degrees of this of course, with the scale moving from gameplay mechanics which only slightly inhibit the player, to gameplay mechanics which render him completely helpless.
Cloaking is almost at the extreme end of rendering the player helpless on that scale, at least that is the experience the individual marine that encounters a cloaked alien will be subjected to. Darkness is more towards the middle of that scale, as the player's senses aren't rendered entirely useless, but instead made less effective. In both cases the problem is that the player cannot act against that which he cannot see. In the end the result is more or less the same -- most players experience less fun while playing against cloaking and on dark maps, eventually turning into a trend where dark maps and the upgrade path that leads to cloaking are for the most part avoided.
As for the alien vision, I'm not entirely sure. In order to make it viable as the default (and only available) vision mode for aliens, it would have to be very subdued. That means no crazy colors, no techno lines around all the edges of the map and no dulling of texture visibility. What's left is probably some sort of bright outline around players and structres, which improves visibility and help with identification of enemies and friendlies without ruining the visuals or inducing eye fatigue. If you do that however, the part of the playerbase who want some sort of "AWESOME MODE" type vision will be left disgruntled.
Regarding binary, unary and ternary mechanics, I would argue that we have enough of it already through map geometry. Geometry, combined with the asymmetry of the teams' movement patterns, attack range and general play-style is enough to provide a genuine ternary game mechanic. It's subtle, open to mapper's discretion (and therefore, to public opinion) and is not a simple A or B conundrum. As both a marine or alien, I need to make the most of a room's shape but I don't simply walk into an "alien room" or a "marine room".
I think, in the same vein, that brightness should be controlled by the mapper too. If he so wishes, the mapper can create particularly dark corners/areas, luminous lighting and so on. It is then up to the mapper whether to make locations u/bi/ter-nary or not. Truthfully, I'm not entirely sure that the light/dark rooms are as a result of a gameplay/mechanic decision anyway. I've only heard references to it making the room "feel" alien or contested etc. It seems to me that it was introduced more for immersion/atmospheric purposes than anything else. This is already achieved through infestation and alien structure spam though so I don't think its necessary.
Like fighting against a Fade? ;)
There are other game mechanics who break this point much more bad. To be forced to use the flashlight for 10 seconds don't make me feel like I have no chance against incoming aliens. And I could also avoid this area for the short time. Besides i could have stopped the alien chewing the powernode, so it was essentially my fault, that i have altered the battlefield to my disadvantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1898851:date=Feb 2 2012, 04:40 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 2 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the alien vision, I'm not entirely sure. In order to make it viable as the default (and only available) vision mode for aliens, it would have to be very subdued. That means no crazy colors, no techno lines around all the edges of the map and no dulling of texture visibility. What's left is probably some sort of bright outline around players and structures, which improves visibility and help with identification of enemies and friendlies without ruining the visuals or inducing eye fatigue. If you do that however, the part of the playerbase who want some sort of "AWESOME MODE" type vision will be left disgruntled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true. I'm all with Harimau that the AV does not need a disadvantage (beside the glowing eyes, which is cool and only a very little disadvantage).
I also understand the ones who want to see the beautiful textures of a living hive and its surrounding buildings. So we need an AV that has the combat advantages for the aliens, but don't uglynate the environment.
We don't need disadvantages to force the players to look at beautiful textures. So, don't treat the symptoms. Treat the problem!
But we shouldn't force the player to ugly graphic as well. So what to do?
Solution:
<ul><li>Only outline and color Marines and Marine buildings</li><li>Only outline geometry if it is dark (maybe the right opacity can do this already. Harimau: can you make the same .gif in a light area, so we can see if it uglynates the visuals / textures of an hive room or something?)</li><li>Make particles transparent (but in any case visible) and / or make the outlines of marines and buildings shine through</li><li>If it does not make everything look ugly, than make the AV standard "on" but don't make it mandatory. So you can deactivate your glowing eyes for an ambush.</li></ul>
I think this is a compromise that may satisfy everyone.
Not to mention the Commander can drop a scan to light up the area, dispelling most of the darkness.
It's not a huge disadvantage, but vision 'givaways' should be mutual.