Are Drifters fun?
Zek
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Having played more of the alien commander lately, I have to say that I really don't enjoy it and the sole reason is Drifters. The marine comm was long ago freed from his worker units - he just drops things anywhere and players build them for him. MACs are just helpers now to make him a little more independent. The alien comm, on the other hand, still has to use a worker to build every single structure... And on top of that, it's a worker that sacrifices itself so he has to go grab a new one every single time. That's not fair no matter how you look at it. To be blunt, worker units in NS2 just don't handle very well and having to manage this many of them is tedious.
In my opinion, Drifters should be used for building RTs and Hives and occasional support stuff like Flare. Structures and upgrade chambers should be spawned from their corresponding hive like pustules, anywhere where there's connected infestation, and build slowly on their own. The alien comm should spend less time moving Drifters around and more time managing his chambers - controlling whips, deploying umbra/cloak, etc.
Maybe it's just me... Do you guys actually find that ordering these things around contributes positively to the alien comm's experience?
In my opinion, Drifters should be used for building RTs and Hives and occasional support stuff like Flare. Structures and upgrade chambers should be spawned from their corresponding hive like pustules, anywhere where there's connected infestation, and build slowly on their own. The alien comm should spend less time moving Drifters around and more time managing his chambers - controlling whips, deploying umbra/cloak, etc.
Maybe it's just me... Do you guys actually find that ordering these things around contributes positively to the alien comm's experience?
Comments
Although I call the marines out on their buildings which appear out of thin air with blue magic sparkles.
At the moment alien commander doesn't need to (and shouldn't) sit in a hive at all times, but help in doing attacks (suicide take-down extractors for example) or gorging around.
On the other hand, having to depend on Drifters for structures can be frustrating. Drifters are too fragile, and cost too much Hive energy. It's not fun to have the team's timing completely disrupted by one Marine when he snipes off a Drifter or two. This is especially when Marines can drop their structures almost anywhere for free (although they don't build themselves).
I propose a new ability for the Kharaa Commander, to purchase more Hive energy with Team Resources. This way, Marines can hurt Kharaa economy by sniping Drifters, but not significantly delay vital tech.
I wouldn't mind if Kharaa buildings could be built anywhere in range of connected Cysts/Hives, since it makes the Cyst network all the more important. Severing Cysts would equal to severing Alien Commander control over an infested area (albeit not completely).
Although, if the Drifter has more support abilities and is less fragile, I might reconsider.
You shouldn't have to make drifters...then use them.
They should always maintain 2 per hive.
However I am against the entire concept of an alien commander as I think it undermines the key unique factor that made the alien vs marine so great.
You say the marine com was freed from having to use worker units to build, I say marines were shackled into having to manually build structures themselves. Alien structures build themselves after the drifter is placed, that is the trade off. Unit pathing has been massively improved in the past and will continue to be improved until release. Without drifters there's even less for the alien commander to do and that's the opposite of what the position needs right now. I like the dynamic that drifters can be spotted and intercepted on the way to their destination.
<!--quoteo(post=1899799:date=Feb 5 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 5 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion, Drifters should be used for building RTs and Hives and occasional support stuff like Flare. Structures and upgrade chambers should be spawned from their corresponding hive like pustules, anywhere where there's connected infestation, and build slowly on their own. The alien comm should spend less time moving Drifters around and more time managing his chambers - controlling whips, deploying umbra/cloak, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That said I quite like the idea of crags and whips at the least being built out of cysts, but it poses an issue as to what then happens to the infestation, and would require a major rebalance on cyst/drifter energy costs.
<!--quoteo(post=1899833:date=Feb 5 2012, 07:45 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Feb 5 2012, 07:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However I am against the entire concept of an alien commander as I think it undermines the key unique factor that made the alien vs marine so great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Traded one unique overall feature perhaps, but the way the alien commander interacts with the map, structures and their players still retains a massive difference in playstyle.
But yeah, I really like the idea of stuff just growing out of ithe infestation; it makes playing Khamm feel like being the infestation and structures themselves. Without Drifters' need to float to building spots, you could easily help Gorges by throwing down a Crag or 2 for their Hydras, where they previously threw up some mini-cysts...
I'd almost want to switch the building methods of Marines and Kharaa. Almost.
+1
Spreading the infestation is a great mechanic and adds a lot to the alien commander experience but the drifters are just a downer for me. It is possible that this is because I suck at navigating my way around the map but I have that problem as well with the marine commander but there I do it for the team when they need assistance and not for an NPC unit with which I don't interact.
Not only would this mean there's more infestation total, but you'd have to decide if you want to be efficient and use cysts that are as distant as possible (in order to spread infestation faster) for your upgrade chambers or waste infestation potential by placing some cysts in a safe area near the hive. Or, most likely, something in between.
Drifters are not fun at all.
Drifters break the fluid game play of commanding buy adding a clunky layer to aliens command interface.
DEV'S ask yourselves, would the marine commander be as fluid to play if you had to build a mac every time you wanted to place a building?
No the marine commander interface would become slow as they would be micro managing macs everywhere, and not dropping med packs, ammo and giving commands and intel to marines.
Drifters also break the organic feeling that the aliens are a bacterial infestation. Chambers should grow out of the infestation, cysts or marines that have died on infestation.
I think the drifters place in the game is for Hives, Res towers and flares only.
With crags, shades +1 more chamber to micro + microing the numerous abilities tied to these chambers. Whips to micro, cysts, resource towers, hives to build. while giving intel to team mates.
Drifters make the alien command interface sloppy and slow.
Maybe if the Hive had an ability to spend team resources to generate additional energy?
When marines build, what do they do? The commander lays down an unbuilt structure, and then players/MACs build it. They are vulnerable while doing this.
When the aliens build, the commander sends out a drifter and the players protect it. The players are less vulnerable while they do this, but it is balanced against the marines' situation because the drifter is vulnerable too. It's like any other 'alien swarm' style - none of us is as cruel as all of us etc.
I find drifters to be fine from that perspective, but managing them as a commander is pretty horrendous. However, that's mostly due to pathing/infestation-spread issues in maps, and not the units themselves. I think it's something that can be fixed very easily, and then players will learn to fight/defend drifters and it will add to the game's flow a lot.
When marines build, what do they do? The commander lays down an unbuilt structure, and then players/MACs build it. They are vulnerable while doing this.
When the aliens build, the commander sends out a drifter and the players protect it. The players are less vulnerable while they do this, but it is balanced against the marines' situation because the drifter is vulnerable too. It's like any other 'alien swarm' style - none of us is as cruel as all of us etc.
I find drifters to be fine from that perspective, but managing them as a commander is pretty horrendous. However, that's mostly due to pathing/infestation-spread issues in maps, and not the units themselves. I think it's something that can be fixed very easily, and then players will learn to fight/defend drifters and it will add to the game's flow a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i thought the community agreed that escort missions weren't fun, and that was at least partially why the role of the mac was reduced. i don't really want to repeat that if possible.
Well we've just disagreed with you, you can't just tell us our opinions are actually different than what we've stated and expect us to change our stance. Do you think Gorge's should be able to hold their own in a fight too and require no protection?
Also not at all the same since the Gorge is player-controlled and not a dumb bot.
he's saying that the community has screamed plenty in the past regarding having to baby sit and protect MACs which used to be responsible for building every single thing. it was a terrible design and is now gone. if you disagree with this change after actually playing those old alpha versions, well, then thats your opinion, yeah.. but the majority of complaints were against this idea and the devs changed it.
+1 to OP and idea of structures coming out of cysts /infestation. gorges should still be able to speed up build time or contribute somehow tho.
to those worried the alien comm doesn't have a lot to do: don't worry pheromones are on the way.
From playing NS1 for so long, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having gorges build res towers. I'm sure there are reasons (valid or not) for designing NS2 this way, but I haven't heard them so I can't really speak for that..
You can throw the aliens economy back by 50s per drifter you kill, because it needs 50s for the hive to get energy. The drifter is too slow, too weak and too expenisive.
Aliens can't spend the ress as fast as they get ress, because to production time for drifter is longer than 2 RT harvesting 10Res.
to those worried the alien comm doesn't have a lot to do: don't worry pheromones are on the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't gorges already +use buildings to make them build faster like marines do? Though there's no indication this happens other than the % going up faster. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113749" target="_blank">I've suggested</a> that heal-spray serve this purpose instead, since a lot of people seem to intuitively try that, but nothing came of it...
I don't think pheromones will do a whole lot for making the kham busier though. Dropping pheromones/an order when the situation calls for it shouldn't take more than a few clicks, and since they last a while they mostly won't need manual updating.
I don't think pheromones will do a whole lot for making the kham busier though. Dropping pheromones/an order when the situation calls for it shouldn't take more than a few clicks, and since they last a while they mostly won't need manual updating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed with the heal spray idea. when someone does that or is told that it works the first time, their first reaction should be "omg, that's pretty cool" not "wtf? i never would have guessed that". i know it says that you can do it in the tooltips sometimes but i have a hard time paying attention to those and i'm sure many others do too.