IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
yea agree with the heal spray assisting building. I've watched gorges do this countless times, and haven't had the heart to tell them it does nothing lol
Think they just heal the RT because he is not 100%, but those % aren't HP it's the buildprogress. So they think hey it needs healing! So changing the buildtrigger from E to heal is a good idea!
Agreed on Heal Spray speeding up growth, although I don't think there's an obvious way to convey to Gorges that spraying the unbuilt Hive won't speed it up...
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
The current HP of incomplete structures isn't shown for team. (I'll try make a mod for that.)
Heal Spray to speed up structures would be nice. Building multiple structures at the same time wouldn't be overpowered, since there are so few Gorges.
A simple fix for Drifters would be to drastically reduce their energy cost (to 5 or 10). Hive energy should primarily be spent on spreading infestation, rather than limiting structures Kharaas can create.
I've also experienced teammates blocking structure placement. Maybe new structures should push allies out of the way? (But Drifters and MACs shouldn't be so pushy!)
Pustules -> structures is an awesome idea! Maybe drifters can be like macs and build/repair once the pustule has developed into a structure (along with gorges!)
I've said it in other threads and i will say it again here: Currently the alien commander gemplay is a micro nightmare that's no fun to play and not effective. One of the big reasons for that are the drifters, they add needless micro that doesn't really pay off that much in terms of risk-reward options because they only cost energy.
I know the current drifter implementation is in there to make alien commander gameplay different from marine commander, but tbh i think it's cheap to just copy the idea from Starcraft and it doesn't work well in the way NS2 currently plays. The alien commander feels too much like a gimped marine commander with tons of added useless micro.
I'd say rethink the whole way aliens build their stuff and make the drifter something like an "automated hive maintanence unit", give them an AI that makes them travel around on dynamic infestation and give them some other use besides beeing sacrifices for building. That way they would add to the overall "alien feel" without adding needless extra micro the the alien commander.
Micromanaging drifters around as commaner is NOT fun when you also have to micromanage dynamic infestation and active use abilities on chambers all over the map. Delegate some responsibilities away from the alien commander so he has more time using active abilities instead microing around economic small stuff.
Yes this is an RTS/FPS mix, yes there should be a high skill ceiling for commanding, but no i do not think somebody should need to reach 160 APM to be a decent alien commander. I just shudder at the thought of having even more abilities and buildings to micromanage as an alien commander when we get the last upgrade chamber. Seriously: stop adding all that micro on the alien side, it's NOT fun to play and it will never be as fun to play as playing zerg in Starcraft simply because of the added FPS nature in Natural Selection and the engine.
Let's try something unique instead of simply copying "Terran vs Zerg" from starcraft.. because their whole team and gameplay dynamics do not translate that well to an FPS/RTS game where both teams have the same ammount of players and the gameplay is 2 dimensional..
But i really like buildings growing from pustules idea, that would require rethinking on some of the dynamic infestation mechanics i believe.
You can have drifters flying around but not have them build anything. Just have the models swim around the hive in an organic, eerie school and when you place a structure they dive into the infestation and travel, unmolested along the cyst chain, to their destination where they surface, flutter around and settle to grow.
You could also add layers of defense by letting commanders use them to defend against jet packs or say, fly in a cloud to intercept grenades.
Currently I feel NS2, even with the new Onos, is lacking a great deal of spectacle a science fiction game with a mysterious alien race could have. Could you imagine laying siege to an alien base when suddenly a flurry of luminescent drifters surged out in a spiraling cloud to intercept grenades (effectively a commander "call down."
There are tons of really fun aspects you could have in the game that add a lot of just plain fun. I remember a game called Nox where I would literally spend 15 minutes playing around with the glowing particle trail coming off the mouse at the title screen that exploded every time you clicked. Stuff like allowing gorges to paint infestation like a spray can, including depth and breadth, and then lodging a cyst into the middle of them to make it permanent, would be fun to do and allow gorges to place infestation (temporarily) without shelling out res every time, or to make infestation that's permanent by paying for it. (I would see it as an add on to heal spray.)
Ultimately you've got a very weird alien race with coral like growths, glowing bits, and a biology that reminds me strongly of cellular slime molds. No reason to hold back on the creativity/weirdness front, they are aliens after all.
I think the drifters should no longer be used to build the chambers.
Does anyone of you remeber the map "ns_nothing" and the red light room? which was above one of the hives. I loved to place structures there as alien, because this was a secure place until the marines get jetpacks. Going in there was faster then going to the hive to heal. There were similiar places on other maps, which were really cool hideouts for aliens to recover. This isnt possible because the drifters cant get to such places. Placing them in such places would be possible if the comm (or gorge but this is a different topic) could place them without a drifter.
<!--quoteo(post=1899833:date=Feb 5 2012, 01:45 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Feb 5 2012, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest I much much preferred the NS1 method of alien building, where each gorge had to tend to his own node and build mini bases to support the greater good. I understand the higher skill roof, but still it was such an integral part of the gorge experience.
However I am against the entire concept of an alien commander as I think it undermines the key unique factor that made the alien vs marine so great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will second that. It's a new role and I don't see how it fits into whole Kharaa idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1900280:date=Feb 6 2012, 06:52 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 6 2012, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the drifters should no longer be used to build the chambers.
Does anyone of you remeber the map "ns_nothing" and the red light room? which was above one of the hives. I loved to place structures there as alien, because this was a secure place until the marines get jetpacks. Going in there was faster then going to the hive to heal. There were similiar places on other maps, which were really cool hideouts for aliens to recover. This isnt possible because the drifters cant get to such places. Placing them in such places would be possible if the comm (or gorge but this is a different topic) could place them without a drifter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IIRC the red room was accessible through vents, so a drifter would've been able to get in there. But now that you mention it, growing them from cysts could allow the kham to build tech buildings and other vital structures in impossible to reach spots... could be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1900361:date=Feb 6 2012, 10:42 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Feb 6 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IIRC the red room was accessible through vents, so a drifter would've been able to get in there. But now that you mention it, growing them from cysts could allow the kham to build tech buildings and other vital structures in impossible to reach spots... could be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's an problem, i think that would actually be kinda cool. Right now too many ideas are shot down and not considered because of such "NS1 experience balance decissions", when they actually could be really fun and just require other things to be rebalanced.
Because as much as people are annoyed by gorges hiding in vents with their DC chambers, it has been and still is an integral part of what made NS so fun in the first place. Giving the player at least the illusion of an somewhat sandboxy game he could break if he invests enough time. Lot's of that feeling is gone with NS2 because of strange design decissions that seem to be made because they are simply easier to rebalance compared to a new more unique approach.
That's kinda sad.. in the end it feels like too often when there is a option between "unique and new" and "could be imbalanced, stick to what we know" UWE seems to rather chose to go with "could be imbalanced, stick to the rules we know"...
The current implementation of the alien commander and gorge make aliens feel very underpowered compared to the marine side of things because with marines UWE mostly stuck to the things that worked in NS1 while aliens right now are all messed up because UWE tries to rebalance alien dynamics compared to NS1. So i don't think we should be scared of imbalancing the metagame right now. For that it should be fun first, after that we can bother with balance.
But nobody plays a perfectly balanced game if it is not fun to play..
<!--quoteo(post=1900361:date=Feb 6 2012, 05:42 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Feb 6 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IIRC the red room was accessible through vents, so a drifter would've been able to get in there. But now that you mention it, growing them from cysts could allow the kham to build tech buildings and other vital structures in impossible to reach spots... could be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think cysts can path to inaccessible spots so i don't think that will be an issue. i don't really even know that there are any inaccessible places of that sort on the maps we have so far.
<!--quoteo(post=1900462:date=Feb 6 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 6 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't think cysts can path to inaccessible spots so i don't think that will be an issue. i don't really even know that there are any inaccessible places of that sort on the maps we have so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mini-cysts could. And i don't think we have such rooms atm. Summit has in crevice a place which is "save" atleast no marines can get there.
Drifters can go pretty much anywhere in the map without restrictions - if there are any spots on the map that somehow you can get cysts onto but workers/players can't access, that should simply be fixed by the mapper. There are limitations in where infestation can go as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1899805:date=Feb 5 2012, 12:22 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 5 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i have a decided hatred for them. they get stuck on everything. i would MUCH prefer it if they only built hives and harvesters, and the other chambers evolved out of cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree with this, but its not gone far enough. Everything should build out of cysts. Cysts should also steadily develop if they go unmolested by marines for a while, which improves the build speed of nearby structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1901369:date=Feb 9 2012, 12:44 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Feb 9 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would agree with this, but its not gone far enough. Everything should build out of cysts. Cysts should also steadily develop if they go unmolested by marines for a while, which improves the build speed of nearby structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind this. Watching infestation spread into a tech point room and a Hive is grown from bacteria gives me the willies, good willies to be precise :)
Maybe Drifters can be re-purposed to actual worker units, some suggestions below:
1) Each Hive will automatically spawn up to 3 Drifters, no need to spend energy on them.
2) Let Drifters auto-help speed up structure growth, like MAC w/ Marine buildings, so the Khamm doesn't have to depend on Gorges for that (as much as it pains me to say).
3) Let the Khamm move eggs (not player eggs) around the Hive with Drifters, for better strategic placement and less blocking building space.
4) Let Khamm spend PRes or TRes to transform Drifters into eggs (up to a maximum #), expensive but worthwhile if eggs take too long to spawn. This reminds me of the "Nymph" concept originally for egg spawning ^_^
5) Maybe keep Whip as an evolution on Drifters? More stealthy Whip play and sieges, yay!
let the RTS part of the game be an RTS! commander gameplay consisting of watching players run around and clicking on "heal" or whatever would be a terrible idea.
Alien commander is supposed to be different from the traditional RTS marine commander.
Alien commander should be more like a guide, an eye in the sky, enhancing alien combat abilities. After a long time playing NS2 I have to say I prefer when gorges did the building.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
One outdated mechanism that has been bugging me is that, to spawn the three free Drifters from a new Hive still requires the Khammander to leave the Hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1901650:date=Feb 10 2012, 07:21 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 10 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One outdated mechanism that has been bugging me is that, to spawn the three free Drifters from a new Hive still requires the Khammander to leave the Hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes this is annoying and makes no sense to me, it's also rather difficult to explain to new players as to why you want them to jump in and out of the new hive for you.
Comments
So they think hey it needs healing! So changing the buildtrigger from E to heal is a good idea!
Heal Spray to speed up structures would be nice. Building multiple structures at the same time wouldn't be overpowered, since there are so few Gorges.
A simple fix for Drifters would be to drastically reduce their energy cost (to 5 or 10). Hive energy should primarily be spent on spreading infestation, rather than limiting structures Kharaas can create.
I've also experienced teammates blocking structure placement. Maybe new structures should push allies out of the way? (But Drifters and MACs shouldn't be so pushy!)
I know the current drifter implementation is in there to make alien commander gameplay different from marine commander, but tbh i think it's cheap to just copy the idea from Starcraft and it doesn't work well in the way NS2 currently plays. The alien commander feels too much like a gimped marine commander with tons of added useless micro.
I'd say rethink the whole way aliens build their stuff and make the drifter something like an "automated hive maintanence unit", give them an AI that makes them travel around on dynamic infestation and give them some other use besides beeing sacrifices for building. That way they would add to the overall "alien feel" without adding needless extra micro the the alien commander.
Micromanaging drifters around as commaner is NOT fun when you also have to micromanage dynamic infestation and active use abilities on chambers all over the map.
Delegate some responsibilities away from the alien commander so he has more time using active abilities instead microing around economic small stuff.
Yes this is an RTS/FPS mix, yes there should be a high skill ceiling for commanding, but no i do not think somebody should need to reach 160 APM to be a decent alien commander.
I just shudder at the thought of having even more abilities and buildings to micromanage as an alien commander when we get the last upgrade chamber. Seriously: stop adding all that micro on the alien side, it's NOT fun to play and it will never be as fun to play as playing zerg in Starcraft simply because of the added FPS nature in Natural Selection and the engine.
Let's try something unique instead of simply copying "Terran vs Zerg" from starcraft.. because their whole team and gameplay dynamics do not translate that well to an FPS/RTS game where both teams have the same ammount of players and the gameplay is 2 dimensional..
But i really like buildings growing from pustules idea, that would require rethinking on some of the dynamic infestation mechanics i believe.
You could also add layers of defense by letting commanders use them to defend against jet packs or say, fly in a cloud to intercept grenades.
Currently I feel NS2, even with the new Onos, is lacking a great deal of spectacle a science fiction game with a mysterious alien race could have. Could you imagine laying siege to an alien base when suddenly a flurry of luminescent drifters surged out in a spiraling cloud to intercept grenades (effectively a commander "call down."
There are tons of really fun aspects you could have in the game that add a lot of just plain fun. I remember a game called Nox where I would literally spend 15 minutes playing around with the glowing particle trail coming off the mouse at the title screen that exploded every time you clicked. Stuff like allowing gorges to paint infestation like a spray can, including depth and breadth, and then lodging a cyst into the middle of them to make it permanent, would be fun to do and allow gorges to place infestation (temporarily) without shelling out res every time, or to make infestation that's permanent by paying for it. (I would see it as an add on to heal spray.)
Ultimately you've got a very weird alien race with coral like growths, glowing bits, and a biology that reminds me strongly of cellular slime molds. No reason to hold back on the creativity/weirdness front, they are aliens after all.
if both teams were to play more passively, marines will always out res the aliens
I like the idea of structure's growing out of the infestation. Its a good idea, i think UWE should consider it.
Does anyone of you remeber the map "ns_nothing" and the red light room? which was above one of the hives. I loved to place structures there as alien, because this was a secure place until the marines get jetpacks. Going in there was faster then going to the hive to heal.
There were similiar places on other maps, which were really cool hideouts for aliens to recover. This isnt possible because the drifters cant get to such places. Placing them in such places would be possible if the comm (or gorge but this is a different topic) could place them without a drifter.
However I am against the entire concept of an alien commander as I think it undermines the key unique factor that made the alien vs marine so great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will second that. It's a new role and I don't see how it fits into whole Kharaa idea.
Does anyone of you remeber the map "ns_nothing" and the red light room? which was above one of the hives. I loved to place structures there as alien, because this was a secure place until the marines get jetpacks. Going in there was faster then going to the hive to heal.
There were similiar places on other maps, which were really cool hideouts for aliens to recover. This isnt possible because the drifters cant get to such places. Placing them in such places would be possible if the comm (or gorge but this is a different topic) could place them without a drifter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC the red room was accessible through vents, so a drifter would've been able to get in there.
But now that you mention it, growing them from cysts could allow the kham to build tech buildings and other vital structures in impossible to reach spots... could be a problem.
But now that you mention it, growing them from cysts could allow the kham to build tech buildings and other vital structures in impossible to reach spots... could be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's an problem, i think that would actually be kinda cool.
Right now too many ideas are shot down and not considered because of such "NS1 experience balance decissions", when they actually could be really fun and just require other things to be rebalanced.
Because as much as people are annoyed by gorges hiding in vents with their DC chambers, it has been and still is an integral part of what made NS so fun in the first place.
Giving the player at least the illusion of an somewhat sandboxy game he could break if he invests enough time. Lot's of that feeling is gone with NS2 because of strange design decissions that seem to be made because they are simply easier to rebalance compared to a new more unique approach.
That's kinda sad.. in the end it feels like too often when there is a option between "unique and new" and "could be imbalanced, stick to what we know" UWE seems to rather chose to go with "could be imbalanced, stick to the rules we know"...
The current implementation of the alien commander and gorge make aliens feel very underpowered compared to the marine side of things because with marines UWE mostly stuck to the things that worked in NS1 while aliens right now are all messed up because UWE tries to rebalance alien dynamics compared to NS1. So i don't think we should be scared of imbalancing the metagame right now. For that it should be fun first, after that we can bother with balance.
But nobody plays a perfectly balanced game if it is not fun to play..
But now that you mention it, growing them from cysts could allow the kham to build tech buildings and other vital structures in impossible to reach spots... could be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think cysts can path to inaccessible spots so i don't think that will be an issue. i don't really even know that there are any inaccessible places of that sort on the maps we have so far.
Mini-cysts could. And i don't think we have such rooms atm. Summit has in crevice a place which is "save" atleast no marines can get there.
I would agree with this, but its not gone far enough. Everything should build out of cysts. Cysts should also steadily develop if they go unmolested by marines for a while, which improves the build speed of nearby structures.
I don't mind this. Watching infestation spread into a tech point room and a Hive is grown from bacteria gives me the willies, good willies to be precise :)
Maybe Drifters can be re-purposed to actual worker units, some suggestions below:
1) Each Hive will automatically spawn up to 3 Drifters, no need to spend energy on them.
2) Let Drifters auto-help speed up structure growth, like MAC w/ Marine buildings, so the Khamm doesn't have to depend on Gorges for that (as much as it pains me to say).
3) Let the Khamm move eggs (not player eggs) around the Hive with Drifters, for better strategic placement and less blocking building space.
4) Let Khamm spend PRes or TRes to transform Drifters into eggs (up to a maximum #), expensive but worthwhile if eggs take too long to spawn. This reminds me of the "Nymph" concept originally for egg spawning ^_^
5) Maybe keep Whip as an evolution on Drifters? More stealthy Whip play and sieges, yay!
They move the alien commanders focus from the players on his or her team to little squishy brainless things.
Alien commander should be more like a guide, an eye in the sky, enhancing alien combat abilities. After a long time playing NS2 I have to say I prefer when gorges did the building.
Yes this is annoying and makes no sense to me, it's also rather difficult to explain to new players as to why you want them to jump in and out of the new hive for you.