Starting IP
elodea
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
So after reading the design log, my question is still why?
The questions i have with using a combat simulator to figure out balance aside, i would really like to choose where i place my ip's. Reducing IP spawn times i agree is a step in the right direction but i dont see how having to build IP's causes problems. I guess the way i see it is if your team is so bad that if one person doesn't stay and build the IP then you probably deserve it.. NS has alot of harsh lessons and i personally like this one.
Also, i see the skulk rushing problem more of an issue of vents in marine start or alot of entrances, which again makes me wonder how the combat simulation is done.
The questions i have with using a combat simulator to figure out balance aside, i would really like to choose where i place my ip's. Reducing IP spawn times i agree is a step in the right direction but i dont see how having to build IP's causes problems. I guess the way i see it is if your team is so bad that if one person doesn't stay and build the IP then you probably deserve it.. NS has alot of harsh lessons and i personally like this one.
Also, i see the skulk rushing problem more of an issue of vents in marine start or alot of entrances, which again makes me wonder how the combat simulation is done.
Comments
You can still choose where to place whatever other IP you build.
The point is this...
If marines get rushed and everyone dies before someone builds an IP...it is not gameover.
You can still choose where to place whatever other IP you build.
The point is this...
If marines get rushed and everyone dies before someone builds an IP...it is not gameover.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think that it helps that much, a average skulk can kill several marines spawning from a single ip. A good one can kill all and destroy it. Marines just have to learn to defend their base till the skulk rushs are over.
You can still choose where to place whatever other IP you build.
The point is this...
If marines get rushed and everyone dies before someone builds an IP...it is not gameover.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No i understand simulations are an important tool, but my concerns/questions lie not with the use of simulations but in the limited assumptions they are based upon.
The thing is even with close spawns on summit, at the moment it is literally impossible for skulks to be in your base before the IP goes up if its dropped quickly and built. An IP takes 7 seconds to build. It takes 15-20 seconds for skulks to be in your base assuming they arn't held up by marines that went forward. This is why i find it hard to believe that adding a 'starting ip' condition to the simulation would have such an impact on the win rate (which i think is silly really. To say that your chance of winning given equally skilled teams depends not on your build order, your positioning, your resource control, but on whether your first IP is built or not saving you 7 seconds).
An IP that you can't choose where to place is still an IP that well.. you can't choose where to place =/. This affects both 1 and 2 ip builds where your placement depends on where the other IP is placed.
I'm not sure the change will have that big an impact on the game anyway. As you say normally the IP is built before skulks even get there apart from on games where no one goes com. Also in most cases 1 marine will still need to stay behind to build the armoury anyway.
I think a better change would be to keep the game in warmup mode until both teams have a commander. Too many games start with no one going com and everyone standing around waiting.
Mhh... this sounds good.
We really should have this. Even if one team wants to run without a com for part of the game, they at least need to pick someone to do the early-game structure building.
Excellent idea!
I think the gathers mechanism is onto something...pick teams, choose commander, ...then launch.
But these ideas do not solve the problem they are trying to solve.
The problem is this ...The skulk rush is too successful at this point.
The game starts everyone alien skulk rush...kill everyone...game over.
A Marine commander has to get in the chair and build an IP first...any hiccup in this simple goal (commander eaten) can mean game over.
This is exacerbated by the fact that there will be NEWB marine commanders.
"Build what first...GAME OVER"
The answer is to give them a starting IP.
It is a good answer and it is really simple.
The problem is this ...The skulk rush is too successful at this point.
The game starts everyone alien skulk rush...kill everyone...game over.
A Marine commander has to get in the chair and build an IP first...any hiccup in this simple goal (commander eaten) can mean game over.
This is exacerbated by the fact that there will be NEWB marine commanders.
"Build what first...GAME OVER"
The answer is to give them a starting IP.
It is a good answer and it is really simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm getting tired of people saying skulk rush skulk rush. What do you expect really - aliens all spawn as skulks who can only bite and parasite and also move very fast. It isnt an out of the ordinary all in attack that marines sometimes don't expect. Its a legit use of the lifeform you start with and its really quite easy to deal with by building an IP and aiming. I didnt want to say this before because i wasn't sure if it was appropriate but really, being able to build an IP and defend against early skulk aggression is either a learning experience if your a new player or an idiot check if your just retarded. What is the learning experience and mentality that players take away from losing to 'skulk rushes'? - Secure the base and be active in building commander placed structures. Everything the commander does is vital to winning a game (not only building an IP) so following your reasoning, why not make everything instant build or prebuilt.
Also, how on earth is the commander getting eaten before IP built? If its gotten that bad that all the marines were wiped out so quickly and definitively, then i think no IP is doing everyone a favour by restarting a game that is already very most likely an alien win. I dont mean this in any way other than to try and lend credence to my assertion, but i've logged 800 hours playing ns2 with a wide gamut of people and i can say with certainty that skulk rushes are not hard to deal with if you play properly and there are no dodgy vents in marine start.
And yea, i too think extended warmup time is an awesome suggestion! It will DEFINITELY solve a large part of the problem where no one wants to comm until its too late.
This is exacerbated by the fact that there will be NEWB marine commanders.
"Build what first...GAME OVER"
The answer is to give them a starting IP.
It is a good answer and it is really simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe there should not be a starting ip for this exact reason. New players need to learn the basics, the basics are : the commander drop structures and players build them. Having a very short feedback such as "don't build ip -> loose the game" is probably the best way to teach quickly the basics to new players.
It's very similar to the small arcade passage you often have at the begging of fps games where you need to crouch, jump and such. It's there to make sure you know the basics and do well in the rest of the game.
So for better accessibility and to help new players to get into the game : no pre-build ip.
Otherwise the spawn rate changes looks good to me.
If this was true, then the same should apply to alien side at gamestart. But it doesn't. Hives don't get rushed in the first 2 minutes of the game.
only true because of the higher alien spawn rate. i've been in several games where the game ended immediately due to a few skilled marines cutting down the skulk rush and running into the hive and spawncamping.
I've seen this a few times, and just because they don't do it doesn't mean they can't.
marines rushing have to keep shooting the hive while popping every egg.
aliens can survive even if no one has taken the commander role at that point.
marines rushing have to keep shooting the hive while popping every egg.
aliens can survive even if no one has taken the commander role at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 marines can easily destroy a hive, the first marines focuses the hive, the other one the eggs. If the 2nd one makes no mistakes its over in about a minute.
I'd buy an exotic lifeform (like an Onos or a Babbler)
Err wait, the new ones can't. I think I'll stick with the lerk.
If I had a million res nodes....... I'd be rich!
<!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->Oh hey, 500 posts rich =P<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
didnt we JUST have this thread a week ago?
a skulk rush is way more powerful because of the vulnerability of a marine spawning. you know WHERE and when he is going to spawn for a fact, theres only one place... and every rushing skulk focuses on it and the IP dies in less than 5 seconds. game over save for the comm that will soon be jumping out of his chair to get raped. that ip is not like an egg, whereas you shoot that <u><b>anonymous and potentially empty egg, its not the end of spawning eggs.</b></u> The design of IPs are weaker in comparison - so they need a little buff /feature.
allow the comm to electrify the ip for a duration, or make the ips telefrag aliens within a distance, or something to this effect. give marines just ONE chance to not be so vulvnerable during spawning and get a few rounds off. if he doesnt even kill anything, that distraction alone leaves a window for others to spawn in and fight etc.
also, this whole issue, as swalk has shown before with videos, is <b>exponentially intensified</b> with close spawns and vents in base (Which i still dont know why theyre not weldable.)
in short: starting IP helps.. but does not solve the issues listed above, which are more linked to <b>successful </b>skulk rushes.
now if you wish to find the motivation for skulk rushes.. well you need to give an incentive to a skulk to do something other than his kamikaze rush in the first 30 seconds... kind of how like marines and gorges are more alike in this beginning by attempting map control and RT. skulks dont have any direct role in this early map control.
1. When the game starts 2v1 and the marine commander has to drop the IP then build it before anymore of his team mates can spawn
2. When the bases are right next to each other and 5+ skulks drop in before the marine team can build up. Either because
a) the the two marines sent out in that direction were killed and the two left at the base will also be overwhelmed
b) the people who are building aren't keeping an eye out and get swarmped while their backs are turned
The solutions imo is that you don't have bases spawn next to each other. At the very least on small maps like summit and the game doesn't start untill you have 3v3 while there are people sitting in the ready room. The reason I believe this is the better way to fix the problem is the marines will always have the disadvantage when building and if you make it to easy it just becomes trival and at that point you might as well just let the buildings warp in by themselves.
this is a better solution than whatever the 'first ip' change is (I haven't read about it but I'm making a decent guess..)
here's why:
<ul><li>the rule "the game starts when both teams have a commander" is extremely easy to learn</li><li>games will start more often with commanders on both teams, and the marines immediately getting an ip/armory</li><li>if people choose to immediately get out of the chair after entering it, and refuse to build an ip, and their whole team supports that decision, and they get rushed......they deserve what they got</li></ul>
That last point is the most important one to me - any time you die to an idiotic rush strategy, and you didn't prepare even the bare minimum (and everyone on your team failed in their combat role), you deserve to lose and it's as simple as that. Any time games start sugar-coating things and creating artificial unintuitive rules it's bad for the game at large. How hard is it to build IPs and shoot skulks? If people aren't doing that, NS2 might not be for them.
What if my team wants to do an "armory and shotgun first, no IP, everyone plays perfectly and doesn't die" all-in strategy? Are you going to take that away completely just because the absolute worst players would lose to a skulk rush if they tried it?
Something to consider is that the maps should by design not allow a skulk rush against a full marine team to ever win. If that isn't the case, the rifle's damage/rate of fire/accuracy spread are not correctly balanced, and skulks could run at marines anywhere else on the map without playing like skulks, but still win any fight. Luckily, this isn't the case and 95% of early rush wins only happen because people have bad aim/positioning on the defending side.
I disagree a little *In the scenario on summit if the aliens spawn next to you*, marines at the start of a game are going to spread out. Afew will go left afew right to cap RTs and some will stay at the base building. If you have all the aliens rushing out of their base and are lucky enough to find yours next door there is very little you can do. It won't matter to much if you have an IP and armour up and everyone ready in postion *assuming equal player skill*. By the time those other marines come back to base to clear them out assuming you have an IP up you have 4+ people in queue while the aliens are already zerging back in. It won't matter if you hold them off at this point because aliens will end up with total map control while you're fighting to keep your starting point alive.
So while I do aggree marines should always be ready the above scenario is really just loose loose.
In the mean time, though, it's up to the players to not spread out in 3+ directions when they haven't even found the hive yet. It's pretty easy on summit, tram and mineshaft to spawn and go for the 2 nearest res towers, and run back if things go poorly at the base. It's also really easy to find the initial hive once you learn all the scouting cues that the maps offer you (at least on tram/summit it is...mineshaft takes a bit more finesse).
The large-scale problem is that aliens lose less than marines do for rushing early on, since they aren't required to build things (drifters do instead, and they won't be attacked if the entire marine team is distracted defending a rush).
In the mean time, though, it's up to the players to not spread out in 3+ directions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem with that is:
the way to win every game is map control - its the point of the game.
if players go off to do this and they are annihilated in base, well, it obviously encourages turtling and an immediate advantage to aliens. they already have speed advantages, that does a lot for map control.
the way to win every game is map control - its the point of the game.
if players go off to do this and they are annihilated in base, well, it obviously encourages turtling and an immediate advantage to aliens. they already have speed advantages, that does a lot for map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the advantage isn't that immediate when you consider how long it takes to move cysts out to the first res nodes
marines can afford to wait in base for 20 seconds occasionally :)
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Why not make an open command chair an active IP</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
No one has gone commander people can still spawn.
If everyones run off a commander can jump out and have at least 1 active IP while building.
In a pinch he could jump out to increase the spawn rate of team mates.
It would add a extra incentive to drop a command center at tech points.
What is the <b>Impact</b> of a pug game ending due to a skulk rush in 2 minutes?
People lose 2 minutes of their time. Next game starts.
How often is this occuring?, are people really being annoyed by it?
Why are we doing so much (esp current solutions which adds additional limitations to the game) to fix this 'issue' if the impact is low? Better time spent elsewhere?
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(other notes)
Of all the things suggested, the most interesting one for me is the mini gather system where people vote for commander before game starts
The game has 15 seconds 'warm-up' anyway, just have a little voting system in place and the 'winner' of the commander voting system can start the game in the chair/hive. Reason I like this idea is it solves a few other issues as well (Eg greifer comm that rushes to CC just to ruin the game... ironhorse, looking at you here :p)
Why current 'solution isn't a good one':
I predict the 7 sec spawn time is extremely painful for aliens.
ESP during a game with close spawn, marines have the advantage right now to 'trade kills' so to speak vs aliens, because they spawn faster than eggs do. 7 sec spawn rate will make things worse.
***Edit*** Just had a look at the little youtube clip. The spawn rate simulation is based off just 1 iP?? what kinda of balance is that? unless marines can now only build 1 IP per CC?
Except for competitive play, ive never see marines running off 1 ip. I've sometimes seen 3 ips by some commanders ***Edit***
7-10 sec spawn rate also does absolutely nothing against a skulk rush that succeeded initially.
The hard capped 1 IP thing is also bad idea due to having an added limitation to the game.