Early game
Ice30
Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Members
Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Second hive balance issues</div>Who else thinks too much rides on whether or not the aliens can put up a second hive early? Games are often decided by whether or not the aliens get their second hive up first try, because then the aliens start rolling out fades. On the other hand if they fail at getting the second hive the rines roll out gl and armor 2 and often its game over for aliens. Occasionally you get those gem games where each side struggles against one another for like 30 - 60 minutes, but that only happens rarely and often only if the rines can take out that second hive before its built. I think aliens need a boost when they are on 1 hive and a nerf in early game when they have 2nd hive and the rines don't yet have enough to combat the fades. The only time fades feel balanced is if rines have more than 3 res nodes, a good phase gate and at least lv2 upgrades with shotguns, which often only happens after fades have already started their rampage unless the rines can take out that second hive while its still building.
TL/DR
Aliens need a buff when on 1 hive and a nerf for early fades
TL/DR
Aliens need a buff when on 1 hive and a nerf for early fades
Comments
I agree that the moment the 2nd hive goes up, the balance switches towards to aliens.
It is mostly because fades are tied to the 2nd hive, and aliens gain powerful abilities; ie. leap/bilebomb.
I think the solution is to untie fades from the second hive, but then we still have the problem of alot of fades popping at the same time.
To solve that; I think we should have lifeforms, and marine weapons, cost more the more of them there is on the field.
Example: first fade costs 50 res, next fade costs 60, rest of the fades cost 70 res.
That would solve full teams popping the same weapon or lifeform at the same point in the game.
That is one of the most major gameplay differences between NS1 and NS2, and it is balance breaking for both sides.
In the early-game, all the marines can easily access shotguns, which currently have the range of a sniper, and needs a change.
Hive 1 aliens against a full team of shotgunners is a big deal for them in the earlygame.
Same goes for marines when the hive goes up, and aliens pop a full team of fades.
Killing the lifeforms currently isn't that big of a deal, go watch Round 2 of the game I linked below.
You will see the same players going fade over and over.
If the lifeforms cost more, the more you have of them, it would probably solve that issue as well.
If this was implemented, the term "flash-fade" will become used again!
And the marines would have to organize their weapon buys to save resources; "who buys the shotgun?"
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116623" target="_blank">Scrim Cast: Duplex Vs Arc</a>
*getting* to 2 hives at the moment is a bit difficult but I think once hive/CC HP is increased those quick shotty rushes will have more time to be less successful and the Hives won't be quite so fragile as they are now.
Plus, community strategy still needs quite a bit of evolving. Only maybe half the games I play do I see any gorges fortifying newly dropped hives with Hydras, or comm's that drop a crag/shade at both hives for cloak/umbra or a whip for a small buffer to those rushes. So many Hives drop with no defenses in hopes of stupidity or poor skill being present on the opposing team.
edit: also swalk makes some very good points. 70 res for a fade, ouch :P
The cost prices are simply an example, but I think it would work wonders for strategy and gameplay balance.
Alien Comm needs the phermones to say
"Yo guard this"
This is not to take away from the fact that mid-late game skulks are becoming close to useless.
Hive 1 Fade - 70pres
Hive 2 Fade - 50pres
Hive 1 Onos - 100pres
Hive 2 Onos - 90pres
Hive 3 Onos - 75pres
They won't have all their abilities but it would give the aliens a better chance to turn a match around.
You won't see fades and onos in the earlygame with that suggestion.
Untieing them from hivenumbers does not make them appear earlier, they still have a resource cost.
However, I don't like his suggestion, as it doesn't solve the issue of full teams popping specific lifeforms or weapons at the same time.
I agree that they should be weaker with less amount of hives, like the gorge and the skulk. Gain abilities with more hives.
Metabolize and Acid Rocket? I've seen Metabolize somewhere in the lua files, so it's not unlikely it's going to happen.
The inclution of Metabolize might require the removal of frenzy. Frenzy is already too powerful in terms of fade staying power.
40% of max hp healed(over time), per kill.
That is insanely powerful for it's cost and accessability, especially for the alien anti-personel class, the fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1907864:date=Feb 28 2012, 04:19 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 28 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the pubs the 2nd hive will go and no one will guard it.
Alien Comm needs the phermones to say
"Yo guard this"
This is not to take away from the fact that mid-late game skulks are becoming close to useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would greatly help the publics, it's very clear that the pheromones is the alien equalent to marine waypoints.
You can feel that while playing, marines are usually more organized on pubs. Hopefully we will see pheromones ingame soon.
Off the top of my head I like to see:
"Set up ambush" - "Scout" - "Attack(specified by building/player/area)" - "Defend(building/player/area)"
also, 1 hive = 1 shell, 4 hives = 4 shells. Do this for all the upgrade structures
also, 1 hive = 1 shell, 4 hives = 4 shells. Do this for all the upgrade structures<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that is way too limiting compared to the marines.
And it doesn't scale with player numbers very well.
My suggestion about unlocking fades gives aliens a better chance at fighting the GLs with one hive.
Also, I think hivecost should be changed back to 100.
At 100 cost, you can usually drop a hive around 3:40 minutes, if you don't get upgrades or rebuild RTs.
At 75 cost, you can usually drop a hive 2:35, if you don't get upgrades or rebuild RTs.
And when aliens have all their upgrades, they can just keep spamming hives because of the current cost.
We played with 100 hivecost in the game I posted, and you can see the amount of hives there.
And it doesn't scale with player numbers very well.
My suggestion about unlocking fades gives aliens a better chance at fighting the GLs with one hive.
Also, I think hivecost should be changed back to 100.
At 100 cost, you can usually drop a hive around 3:40 minutes, if you don't get upgrades or rebuild RTs.
At 75 cost, you can usually drop a hive 2:35, if you don't get upgrades or rebuild RTs.
And when aliens have all their upgrades, they can just keep spamming hives because of the current cost.
We played with 100 hivecost in the game I posted, and you can see the amount of hives there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree on that. On mineshaft f.e. you can drop 3 RTs with the initial hiveenergy. So aliens have 4 RTs from the start. With the help of gorges, it is even possible to drop a Hive at 2:10 (my best time). At 5:10 min you have cara®en Lvl 3, frenzy and swarm up.
Or you drop 2:20min later the 3. Hive in crushing. Ending in 3 Hives in 7:20min, that's the time the 2. Hive was up in NS1.
It would be simpler if the aliens would start with lower tres.
Edit: oh and the best sideeffect of 4RTs is that all players get 1 Pres per tick. So that all players have 60 res when the hive is up, or if all save, the whole team could go fully upgraded onos after 7:20min :-D.
One possibility might be requiring aliens to do other things before they can get a second hive. Second hives are a perfectly acceptable <i>point</i> on the tech tree, the problem is that you get to them simply by dropping a hive, and you can do that right from the start.
What about if you did something like upgrading hive functionality by building base structures, and tied this into the ability to create new hives.
Building crags, whips, shades and the upgrade chambers near a hive would buff it somehow. There's already an issue with hives being a little too weak, so what about if building crags made them regenerate faster, shells made it have more armor, shades interfere with marine scans/observatory tracking, whips make it able to attack by growing whip tendrils out of the infestation near marines, that sort of thing.
Each hive would have something like an 'evolution meter' which basically tracks how many chambers are connected to it, as it fills up the hive regenerates energy a bit faster, and when it's full you can create a 'hive spore' which is basically like a drifter, only it can only build hives. Drifters lose the ability to build them.
Essentially it would require aliens to upgrade their starting hive and branch out their tech tree a little, before being able to advance a tier. It keeps aliens different from marines because they still need hives to advance, but it also brings them a bit more in line because there is actually a tech tree, not a tech line.
Or you drop 2:20min later the 3. Hive in crushing. Ending in 3 Hives in 7:20min, that's the time the 2. Hive was up in NS1.
It would be simpler if the aliens would start with lower tres.
Edit: oh and the best sideeffect of 4RTs is that all players get 1 Pres per tick. So that all players have 60 res when the hive is up, or if all save, the whole team could go fully upgraded onos after 7:20min :-D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can drop this many RTs, but that you will be able to. The rushs towards the alien hive have been increased since the free ip and the early sgs. I've seen many careless gorges die because of this, or just dropped rts going down again. And depending on the starting hive most comms go for a shade. Loosing a drifter does also slow down the process a lot.
I think the hive cost should be increased, but it should be easier to defend a hive location against marines. When i comm i go for a fast hive because any second i wait longer it becomes tougher defending a dropped hive or a hive location where i plan to drop the hive. SGs on nearly every marine, upgrades on the marines, the fact that the lerk is so squishy atm, the remaining fact that skulks have to get close to the marines to do damage, sentrys are overpowered in early game.
However, from what I have seen, if you have a well-oiled marine team, they can fairly easily remove the threat of a skulk defense. Since there is only one hive , you will likely not have enough eggs ready for a quick redeployment for defense. Usually only 2-3 skulks, and those don't really have time to wait for the marines to shotgun the hive down, so they rush in and die.
I think the only change would be a minor one, and that is a slight increase to the spawn rate of eggs at a certain time period within the game.
Basically, choose a general time, including a basic research of 1 or 2 abilities, a few RT's, and have egg spawn rate increase as that increases. This would prevent the famous skulk never ending start rush like it is now, allow greed on the part of aliens if they are confident in pulling off an early hive, but encourage a stable growth rate while providing some defense.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chris0132+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One possibility might be requiring aliens to do other things before they can get a second hive. Second hives are a perfectly acceptable point on the tech tree, the problem is that you get to them simply by dropping a hive, and you can do that right from the start.
What about if you did something like upgrading hive functionality by building base structures, and tied this into the ability to create new hives.
Building crags, whips, shades and the upgrade chambers near a hive would buff it somehow. There's already an issue with hives being a little too weak, so what about if building crags made them regenerate faster, shells made it have more armor, shades interfere with marine scans/observatory tracking, whips make it able to attack by growing whip tendrils out of the infestation near marines, that sort of thing.
Each hive would have something like an 'evolution meter' which basically tracks how many chambers are connected to it, as it fills up the hive regenerates energy a bit faster, and when it's full you can create a 'hive spore' which is basically like a drifter, only it can only build hives. Drifters lose the ability to build them.
Essentially it would require aliens to upgrade their starting hive and branch out their tech tree a little, before being able to advance a tier. It keeps aliens different from marines because they still need hives to advance, but it also brings them a bit more in line because there is actually a tech tree, not a tech line.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea
Organised teams want 2nd hive as quickly as possible, so they will generally always go the quickest way. Yes, you could in theory make it take longer before they are allowed to build the 2nd hive, but what would this mean in pub games? In most pub games, some upgrades are dropped and weird strategies are undertaken, if certain buildings have to be built then -
1 you are reducing the gameplay options for aliens
2 you would make it so that in pub games, if the shortest method wasn't followed, then the marines would tech up much faster than the aliens.
You are looking at this backward, rather than reducing the number of options for alien gameplay choice, the viable options need to be expanded, so there is another way to win, other than getting the 2nd hive before marines have lvl 2. Which incidentally is why aliens go straight for 2nd hive. If they don't get fades before armor/weapons 2, then the skulks are overpowered by the marines.
The real balance is armor/weapons 2 vs hive 2. This is where the game is at it's most balanced. However you do it, the race to level 2 for both teams is pretty much the deciding factor in who wins the game, unless they arrive close to one another.
The game at the moment is nothing more than a rush to lvl 2 tech for each team. The idea above does nothing to address that situation, although to be fair, I don't think there is a situation anyway. An RTS game is all about out teching the opponents in the right areas, and there is a fairly well balanced tech system in place.
The other factor that comes into play is team player skill. So offer up an idea that enables you to still have a good chance of winning, without having to go for 2nd tier tech as soon as possible. You should realise that you can't, and this is an effective RTS system. It's the FPS player interaction that makes the game play unique, and decides whether you will make it to 2nd tech first or not.
Organised teams want 2nd hive as quickly as possible, so they will generally always go the quickest way. Yes, you could in theory make it take longer before they are allowed to build the 2nd hive, but what would this mean in pub games? In most pub games, some upgrades are dropped and weird strategies are undertaken, if certain buildings have to be built then -
1 you are reducing the gameplay options for aliens
2 you would make it so that in pub games, if the shortest method wasn't followed, then the marines would tech up much faster than the aliens.
You are looking at this backward, rather than reducing the number of options for alien gameplay choice, the viable options need to be expanded, so there is another way to win, other than getting the 2nd hive before marines have lvl 2. Which incidentally is why aliens go straight for 2nd hive. If they don't get fades before armor/weapons 2, then the skulks are overpowered by the marines.
The real balance is armor/weapons 2 vs hive 2. This is where the game is at it's most balanced. However you do it, the race to level 2 for both teams is pretty much the deciding factor in who wins the game, unless they arrive close to one another.
The game at the moment is nothing more than a rush to lvl 2 tech for each team. The idea above does nothing to address that situation, although to be fair, I don't think there is a situation anyway. An RTS game is all about out teching the opponents in the right areas, and there is a fairly well balanced tech system in place.
The other factor that comes into play is team player skill. So offer up an idea that enables you to still have a good chance of winning, without having to go for 2nd tier tech as soon as possible. You should realise that you can't, and this is an effective RTS system. It's the FPS player interaction that makes the game play unique, and decides whether you will make it to 2nd tech first or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
numbers can be tweaked. the disadvantage of that system is that it prevents aliens from going fast 2nd hive.
perhaps instead of limiting a 2nd hive to the number of active chambers, have the number of active chambers increase hive energy refill rate? that way aliens can reasonably go on 1 hive instead of always going 2 hive first. i'm not sure there are viable 1-hive strategies besides skulk or lerk rushing, but there you have it.
It seems to me that early game favours marines rather strongly, in mid game the scales turn to favour aliens and late game is the most balanced but many games do not last that long.
LOL, read what you posted. This is what happens in most pub games already. Comm goes crag, drops a crag at hive, and normally drops one for 2nd hive building. Adds a few whips in. When the comm gets in the chair is used to more organised play, then they go straight for the second hive.
I am using my imagination, you want to force everyone to play the way the average pub comm does, and thats fine. But organised players with organised comms would rather get fades to kill marines, rather than risk trying to using carapace as skulks against lvl 2 shotguns (which is instakill btw).
I personally go straight for RTS to 2nd hive and drop a single crag under the growing hive, as it is going up I research carapace and frenzy.
Remember the most important thing in this game. It is to beat the opponent. To outwit, out-tech and out manoeuvre the opponent. By tying the aliens to ohh you have to buy this and this before you are allowed a hive, negates the alien comms already limited capabilities at being flexible to respond to attacks. Currently if my team can't hold anything, then I back off slightly from fast hive to get them some upgrades, it is entirely based on the skill of my players and allow me to be a fluid, IMAGINATIVE, commander. :)
What you are trying to do is take all the limited uniqueness that can be applied to the alien comm and remove it totally, so you have to build this, then this, then this, now you can build hive. Sure make it simpler to have bots commanding, which is the only people you will get doing it because the alien comm role is pretty inflexible as it is.
How about you think this through fully. Maybe play a few rounds as alien to get a real balanced viewpoint :)
Are we even playing the same game? What I'm saying is this is how the game is <i>now</i>, if you don't build the second hive in early game you're screwed and if marines don't get lv2 upgrades before the second hive is up they're screwed. This is the problem. Too much rides on whether or not aliens have the early hive or not, so obviously things need to be made more viable with only 1 hive going into mid game and things need to be made easier for marines going up against 2 hives (and fades) when they dont have lv2 upgrades yet. This is currently how a lot of people feel the game plays out at the moment and it's not as much fun as a game where both sides feel evenly matched.
It is not a problem, it is the point of the game!
I need to out-tech the enemy, to give my team the best chance to win. The marines do the same.
If marines hit lvl2 before we get 2nd hive, we need to go upgrades defensive to try and get that 2nd hive up. If we don't get the 2nd hive up in the next 5 mins, then the game is over.
That is how it should be. If my team is incapable of holding enough res to beat marines to lvl 2 tech, and then with upgrades is unable to hold them off enough until we get to 2nd hive, then the marines have done a good job, and the game should end quickly.
We should not spend the next 20mins prolonging a game with 1 hive buffs. If we weren't good enough, we lose. There is nothing wrong with the balance of the game. It is an RTS, combined with an FPS. In an RTS if you out-tech the opponent you always win, in NS2 FPS adds a variable component to that, but if my team and my commanding choices are crap, we deserve to lose, and lose heavily.
If hive 2 and lvl 2 come at the same time, the game is balanced. If hive 2 is first then aliens have an advantage, if lvl2 comes first then marines have an advantage. You can't scrap that mechanic and make hive 1 = lvl 2, which is what you are also suggesting.
You are just trying to prolong the game if aliens are losing, and slowing the chance of aliens getting 2nd hive quickly, which means being out-tech'd by marines, and losing. So effectively you want aliens to lose, but for it to be a long slow and drawn out encounter rather than a quick death. Are you a masochist?
If one side is much more skilled than the other and gets the tech first, then they are entitled to press home that advantage and win.
If both sides are equivalent skill, both tend to hit tech 2 within a few minutes of each other. The game is balanced at tech 2, and can go on for ages. Also getting to tech 2 quickly is not easy, if you have a team of good skulks and marines, fighting over RN regularly, getting to tech 2 for both teams can take an age. I like a long game, it means the team skill levels are pretty even and then becomes a real tactical battle, but when you are losing, you should be punished for it.
It is entirely related to the skill of the players. The tech tree is balanced at tech 1 v tech 1, tech2 v tech 2 and tech3 v tech 3. It is the individual player skils on the team, both fighting and in the comm chair, that enable one team to progress faster than the other.
If you don't tech up early you forfeit the game?
Name any RTS where if you don't tech up early you win the game. Your Command and Conquer example was you out-teching by increasing the number of units, an option not available in NS2, so the only option is tech up. Whether you make them sideways tech, as you want, or upwards tech is irrelevant, it's all teching.
Name any FPS that has tech levels, where if you don't tech up, you can still win. NS2 is a tactical RTS fused with a skill based FPS. Tech is an integral part of the game and should be. If you want the game to be fair without teching up early, you want a straight forward FPS, and that is not what this game is about.
NS2 is ALL about the tech race, which is all based on player skill. The more skillful the players on your team, the quicker you can tech. The more you can tech, the easier it is to overpower opponents. The key is player skill. Get yourself in some organised games and see how different gameplay is. You can both race for tech 2, and 1 team could get it in 5 mins and the other struggles and is dead, or it could take 10mins for either team to get tech 2, and then the game lasts another 30 mins or more while they slug it out.
The length of this game is not determined by the tech, but by the skill level of players, enabling the team to be able to tech.
1 Hive is Weapon/Armor 0
1 Hive and 1 upgrade are Weapon/Armor 1
2 Hives are Weapon/Armor2
2 Hives & Upgrades are Weapon/Armor3
3 Hives are Exo's and JP's
The tech is balanced and not the problem. Player skill/player numbers/server/netcode etc are the determining factor in all other aspects.