<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both teams trying to get to level 2 tech as fast as possible does not mean short games :P
If one side is much more skilled than the other and gets the tech first, then they are entitled to press home that advantage and win.
If both sides are equivalent skill, both tend to hit tech 2 within a few minutes of each other. The game is balanced at tech 2, and can go on for ages. Also getting to tech 2 quickly is not easy, if you have a team of good skulks and marines, fighting over RN regularly, getting to tech 2 for both teams can take an age. I like a long game, it means the team skill levels are pretty even and then becomes a real tactical battle, but when you are losing, you should be punished for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that if you have higher tech you have an advantage, you should, all im saying is that having fades when marines dont have tech 2 yet is a game ender. What should happen is marines should still have a chance to respond to that threat, not just roll over and die as soon as this happens. Same goes for aliens, it's virtually impossible to get a second hive up if marines have already got tech 2. The advantage of this tech level over what is effectively a notch below it on the tech ladder is ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name any RTS where if you don't tech up early you win the game. Your Command and Conquer example was you out-teching by increasing the number of units, an option not available in NS2, so the only option is tech up. Whether you make them sideways tech, as you want, or upwards tech is irrelevant, it's all teching.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not, teching means upgrades and advanced weapons\units. Mobilizing units is an early game option in NS2 as you can get early phase gates and forward armories without researching anything, which should be a more viable tactic. At the moment you dont stand a chance unless you get that weapons lab up asap.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name any FPS that has tech levels, where if you don't tech up, you can still win. NS2 is a tactical RTS fused with a skill based FPS. Tech is an integral part of the game and should be. If you want the game to be fair without teching up early, you want a straight forward FPS, and that is not what this game is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. For someone who was just talking about not wanting to go through mind numbingly building the exact same things to win the game you have a flawed idea about what imaginative and diverse strategies should be about.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The length of this game is not determined by the tech, but by the skill level of players, enabling the team to be able to tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your cyclic argument doesn't even make sense. What im saying is that in early game the game is determined by tech, not skill level.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tech is balanced and not the problem. Player skill/player numbers/server/netcode etc are the determining factor in all other aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not. The game is balanced on a rock paper scissors scenario in early to mid game, where both sides keep throwing matched moves at each other, which generally don't result in a win, until someone reaches level 2 tech and then proceeds to steamroll the other team unless they can scramble what they have left after all the destruction and somehow get level 2 tech and attempt to make a recovery.
Games should be balanced for public play, not for clan matches. Clan matches should have custom game play which clears some of the foggy random dice throws that you have with public play.
What i still see as a problem the marines can advance to tech3 without having to win ground. The can keep up a stalemate against the aliens which have 2 hives and get more upgrades, new techs. But the aliens are forced to win the stalemate to get tech3.
Untying the lifeforms from the hivecount but making them take their full potential with a higher hive count could help the aliens to have a chance in these stalemates. What the nerf for the lifeforms with low hive numbers is would have to evaluated.
Maybe a max number of fades or oni, which could increase with player count. For example for 4 players on the team 1 fade would be allowed with 1 hive, with 6 players it could be 2 fades. Which would also be increased by the hive count.
Increasing the Res cost for each fade isnt a good option in my eyes since this would hurt the aliens more then the marines when their weapon cost would be increased. Depending on how many res nodes you can hold, 50 res for fade is already a lot. If the next fade would cost 60 res, that 10res more would take 25-80sec more time to get. A shotgun would cost what 30 instead of 20? Thats the would be the same increase of cost. And this would result in atleast 2 shotguns against 1 fade. But shotguns can be picked up. Would shotguns which arent despawned yet would still increase the cost?
As I've suggested before: - Untie lifeforms from hives, but make them cheaper depending on amount of hives. Keep amount of tech aliens can have tied to hives. - Nerf shotgun (make it more expensive to research, fix firing speed while moving, increase damage drop from distance) - Nerf fade (Yuuki's fademod, but with longer duration between blinks)
This will bring the teams closer in balance in the early to mid-game breakpoint.
<!--quoteo(post=1908273:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:12 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Feb 29 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I've suggested before: - Untie lifeforms from hives, but make them cheaper depending on amount of hives. Keep amount of tech aliens can have tied to hives. - Nerf shotgun (make it more expensive to research, fix firing speed while moving, increase damage drop from distance) - Nerf fade (Yuuki's fademod, but with longer duration between blinks)
This will bring the teams closer in balance in the early to mid-game breakpoint.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides the first point, I'm with you. To recap: The problem is, that: <ul><li>the aliens are too weak with one hive against just slightly upgraded marines</li><li>the aliens are too strong with two hives, even in midgame</li></ul> The solution should not penalize the tactical possibilities of the alien com. (In fact he is penalized in some way right now because the best way to win is to forget upgrades at first and try a very soon 2nd hive.) It seems that the 2nd hive has too much importance right now. But unchaining the lifeforms from the hives will weaken its importance to much. But there is one solution, that would sadly require a bit of balancing.
Make the upgrades more of a matter. that means: <ul><li>at first weaken all life forms beside skulks (lower health, armor, damage, energy or speed) This is the biggest part. You have to be careful here to not weaken some of the life forms to strong.</li><li>increase the gain of armor with each level of carapace strongly</li><li>increase the effect time of swarm and devide it in 3lvl of upgrades</li><li>increase the healing of frenzy and devide it in 3lvl of upgrades (for example: lvl1: like now, lvl2: more healing, lvl3: overhealing = more than max hp)</li><li>increase the usefulness of the cloak upgrade (for example: lvl1: only cloaked when standing still, lvl2: cloaked while crouching, lvl3: cloaked like with shade)</li><li>increase the cost of the upgrades (P_Res AND T_Res) (p_res for example: lvl1: 2 lvl2: 4 lvl3: 6)</li><li>decrease the costs of the lifeforms (maybe gorge: 10, lerk: 20, fade: 40, onos 60)</li></ul> This changes will not only: <ul><li>decrease the player frustration when losing a higher lifeform</li><li>keep the focus on building more hives but also bring the upgrades back in focus</li><li>gives the commander more options beside going early 2nd hive</li><li>give the player more options in choosing the right upgrades for the right situations</li><li>weakens the fade without upgrades</li><li>makes the skulk useful in lategame</li><li>AND (with easy balancing) leads to the solution of the problem: second hive makes aliens too powerful.</li></ul>
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I'd argue that tying number of upgrades to hives is what has caused the problem stated in this thread. Now with only one upgrade you have to try and tech to fades quicker. Before number of upgrades was tied to hive, you could survive and do well with a skulk and carapce, regen and frenzy/swarm. Now only having 1 upgrade makes less of a difference, so comms go for the 2nd hive.
If you really feel the current game format needs opening up, then the restriction on number of upgrades needs to be changed, that's all, no tying of trees or forcing to build this or that. It is overkill for something which really isn't a problem.
I still feel the current system is better, and more balanced, than the old system and any other idea proposed so far in this thread.
I don't think I like the idea of expensive evolutions. How about having all 3 evolutions - lerk, fade and onos - be research at the hive?
This research takes a long time, and is reduced in duration by having more hives. This means if a hive goes down in the endgame, suddenly the aliens have no lost all hope of retaking it - the research is already done. If somehow the aliens start out terribly, but manage to hold the first hive, eventually they will get fade and can break out. Also gives the commander the option to 'rush' for fade over lerk, although debatable the merits of such a decision.
Comments
If one side is much more skilled than the other and gets the tech first, then they are entitled to press home that advantage and win.
If both sides are equivalent skill, both tend to hit tech 2 within a few minutes of each other. The game is balanced at tech 2, and can go on for ages. Also getting to tech 2 quickly is not easy, if you have a team of good skulks and marines, fighting over RN regularly, getting to tech 2 for both teams can take an age. I like a long game, it means the team skill levels are pretty even and then becomes a real tactical battle, but when you are losing, you should be punished for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that if you have higher tech you have an advantage, you should, all im saying is that having fades when marines dont have tech 2 yet is a game ender. What should happen is marines should still have a chance to respond to that threat, not just roll over and die as soon as this happens. Same goes for aliens, it's virtually impossible to get a second hive up if marines have already got tech 2. The advantage of this tech level over what is effectively a notch below it on the tech ladder is ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name any RTS where if you don't tech up early you win the game. Your Command and Conquer example was you out-teching by increasing the number of units, an option not available in NS2, so the only option is tech up. Whether you make them sideways tech, as you want, or upwards tech is irrelevant, it's all teching.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not, teching means upgrades and advanced weapons\units. Mobilizing units is an early game option in NS2 as you can get early phase gates and forward armories without researching anything, which should be a more viable tactic. At the moment you dont stand a chance unless you get that weapons lab up asap.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name any FPS that has tech levels, where if you don't tech up, you can still win. NS2 is a tactical RTS fused with a skill based FPS. Tech is an integral part of the game and should be. If you want the game to be fair without teching up early, you want a straight forward FPS, and that is not what this game is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. For someone who was just talking about not wanting to go through mind numbingly building the exact same things to win the game you have a flawed idea about what imaginative and diverse strategies should be about.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The length of this game is not determined by the tech, but by the skill level of players, enabling the team to be able to tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your cyclic argument doesn't even make sense. What im saying is that in early game the game is determined by tech, not skill level.
<!--quoteo(post=1908178:date=Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 29 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tech is balanced and not the problem. Player skill/player numbers/server/netcode etc are the determining factor in all other aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not. The game is balanced on a rock paper scissors scenario in early to mid game, where both sides keep throwing matched moves at each other, which generally don't result in a win, until someone reaches level 2 tech and then proceeds to steamroll the other team unless they can scramble what they have left after all the destruction and somehow get level 2 tech and attempt to make a recovery.
Games should be balanced for public play, not for clan matches. Clan matches should have custom game play which clears some of the foggy random dice throws that you have with public play.
Untying the lifeforms from the hivecount but making them take their full potential with a higher hive count could help the aliens to have a chance in these stalemates. What the nerf for the lifeforms with low hive numbers is would have to evaluated.
Maybe a max number of fades or oni, which could increase with player count. For example for 4 players on the team 1 fade would be allowed with 1 hive, with 6 players it could be 2 fades. Which would also be increased by the hive count.
Increasing the Res cost for each fade isnt a good option in my eyes since this would hurt the aliens more then the marines when their weapon cost would be increased. Depending on how many res nodes you can hold, 50 res for fade is already a lot. If the next fade would cost 60 res, that 10res more would take 25-80sec more time to get. A shotgun would cost what 30 instead of 20? Thats the would be the same increase of cost. And this would result in atleast 2 shotguns against 1 fade. But shotguns can be picked up. Would shotguns which arent despawned yet would still increase the cost?
- Untie lifeforms from hives, but make them cheaper depending on amount of hives. Keep amount of tech aliens can have tied to hives.
- Nerf shotgun (make it more expensive to research, fix firing speed while moving, increase damage drop from distance)
- Nerf fade (Yuuki's fademod, but with longer duration between blinks)
This will bring the teams closer in balance in the early to mid-game breakpoint.
- Untie lifeforms from hives, but make them cheaper depending on amount of hives. Keep amount of tech aliens can have tied to hives.
- Nerf shotgun (make it more expensive to research, fix firing speed while moving, increase damage drop from distance)
- Nerf fade (Yuuki's fademod, but with longer duration between blinks)
This will bring the teams closer in balance in the early to mid-game breakpoint.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides the first point, I'm with you. To recap: The problem is, that:
<ul><li>the aliens are too weak with one hive against just slightly upgraded marines</li><li>the aliens are too strong with two hives, even in midgame</li></ul>
The solution should not penalize the tactical possibilities of the alien com. (In fact he is penalized in some way right now because the best way to win is to forget upgrades at first and try a very soon 2nd hive.) It seems that the 2nd hive has too much importance right now. But unchaining the lifeforms from the hives will weaken its importance to much. But there is one solution, that would sadly require a bit of balancing.
Make the upgrades more of a matter. that means:
<ul><li>at first weaken all life forms beside skulks (lower health, armor, damage, energy or speed) This is the biggest part. You have to be careful here to not weaken some of the life forms to strong.</li><li>increase the gain of armor with each level of carapace strongly</li><li>increase the effect time of swarm and devide it in 3lvl of upgrades</li><li>increase the healing of frenzy and devide it in 3lvl of upgrades (for example: lvl1: like now, lvl2: more healing, lvl3: overhealing = more than max hp)</li><li>increase the usefulness of the cloak upgrade (for example: lvl1: only cloaked when standing still, lvl2: cloaked while crouching, lvl3: cloaked like with shade)</li><li>increase the cost of the upgrades (P_Res AND T_Res) (p_res for example: lvl1: 2 lvl2: 4 lvl3: 6)</li><li>decrease the costs of the lifeforms (maybe gorge: 10, lerk: 20, fade: 40, onos 60)</li></ul>
This changes will not only:
<ul><li>decrease the player frustration when losing a higher lifeform</li><li>keep the focus on building more hives but also bring the upgrades back in focus</li><li>gives the commander more options beside going early 2nd hive</li><li>give the player more options in choosing the right upgrades for the right situations</li><li>weakens the fade without upgrades</li><li>makes the skulk useful in lategame</li><li>AND (with easy balancing) leads to the solution of the problem: second hive makes aliens too powerful.</li></ul>
If you really feel the current game format needs opening up, then the restriction on number of upgrades needs to be changed, that's all, no tying of trees or forcing to build this or that. It is overkill for something which really isn't a problem.
I still feel the current system is better, and more balanced, than the old system and any other idea proposed so far in this thread.
This research takes a long time, and is reduced in duration by having more hives. This means if a hive goes down in the endgame, suddenly the aliens have no lost all hope of retaking it - the research is already done. If somehow the aliens start out terribly, but manage to hold the first hive, eventually they will get fade and can break out. Also gives the commander the option to 'rush' for fade over lerk, although debatable the merits of such a decision.
eg
Evolution | 1 Hive | 2 Hives | 3 Hives
Lerk | 5 minutes | 3 minutes | 1 minute
Fade | 15 minutes | 10 minutes | 5 minutes
Onos | 30 minutes | 20 minutes | 10 minutes
Numbers just as an example.