We are not going to revert the changes, and we'd prefer people didn't spend time trying to make mods to revert the changes.
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 2 2012, 08:50 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 2 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not going to revert the changes, and we'd prefer people didn't spend time trying to make mods to revert the changes.
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, I think that's what people are really asking for even if their knee jerk reaction is just to want it reverted as a fix. Are the bunnyhopping speed gains intentional?
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 04:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not going to revert the changes, and we'd prefer people didn't spend time trying to make mods to revert the changes.
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't find 100% air control fun to play. Nor to play against. The zig zagging mid air isn't fun. Watching skulks jump forward then spin around and start moving backward in the air is not fun.
I found the 198 skulk movement a lot better to play as a skulk and as a marine.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
@Squeal_Like_A_Pig: I understand your desire to make it work from the ground up, but I'm still not sure which of the changes are intentional and which are not. Is it intentional that skulks cannot jump when on the ground and close to walls anymore (and, particularly, get a wallhopping speedboost)? Is it intentional that you get a speedboost by simply spamming A/D in air, but a slowdown on ground whenever you strafe? Is it intentional that you slow down almost to a full stop when jumping backwards? Is it intentional that you lose all your momentum from wallhopping instantly?
Concerning the modding to revert changes: I simply thought that most of the things I mentioned were bugs in the new system and wanted to be able to play with an actually working skulk until the new stuff is fixed (I personally don't consider b199 skulk movement as working in any way whatsoever and find myself unable to play this build).
I can't believe this is being given serious discussion. We've always been a forum that discusses code tweaks and the mechanics behind gameplay changes, but the people who are actually considering modifying servers to undo this need to take a step back and get some perspective.
If you don't like the new changes, that's fine, but modding your server won't undo them. We're in beta here, and that means we're here to test. Instead of discussing ways to roll back the changes, you should be discussing ways to improve them, or do damage control. Nail down exactly what parts of the change you find problematic, make your opinion heard, and be done with it. We're here to help UWE make the best game they can, and for just about everyone that means suffering through some aspect or another of the game that they don't like as much as they could.
If a change nerfs something unfairly, ask for buffs or a nerf to its opposition. If it reduced skill, ask for more skill outlets. If it lowered the skill floor, ask for flat-return strategies. I think you'll find UWE want to make a balanced and enjoyable game as much as you do, and even if you disagree on qualitative things like how fun an activity is, the numbers on things like balance and skill effectiveness will be something they're well aware of. Don't just pretend like the change never happened, though; that won't help anybody.
<i>Edit: That took a while to type. Dghelneshi came in with some very good questions that are right on the money, just so long as we keep the server modding out of them.</i>
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
Please read my post again. I don't pretend it didn't happen. I thought and still think it was/is completely broken. Just like we fixed fades getting stuck on ladders in the ENSL gathers long before it got fixed in the official game, I just want a working mechanic to play actual games with, while still reporting what I think is wrong with the current official implementation. We've been modding the ENSL servers for ages (Fade mod, increased CC health, anti-minespam, whatever was currently broken in the opinion of most players) to try out or just plainly change things that we think improve the game. The base game has or had some problems I think are/were obvious and I just want a mostly working game to enjoy playing and sometimes mods are needed for that, as this is still not a finished game.
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The movement was much more skill based in 198 than it is currently. I certainly do hope you add some more 'skill outlets' as someone called them, because the new system is very restrictive compared to the old one. You could really flourish as a skulk in 198, but I bet the oldskool players which had their minds hell-bent on bunnyhopping couldn't learn it. I feel like that even the devs didn't know how good the system in 198 was.
I guess I'll lay back a patch or two and wait, the skulk is currently unplayable.
Unless some big changes are made to one direction or other after 199, there will definitely be mods to return the 198 movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1908865:date=Mar 1 2012, 04:15 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please read my post again. I don't pretend it didn't happen. I thought and still think it was/is completely broken. Just like we fixed fades getting stuck on ladders in the ENSL gathers long before it got fixed in the official game, I just want a working mechanic to play actual games with, while still reporting what I think is wrong with the current official implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I added an edit to my post before that. I wasn't targeting you with my post, it just happened to go in before mine went up.
What I wrote was just directed at the people I mentioned in its opening: anyone who decided that running plugins was a better solution than learning to use the new changes. What anybody does for private/competitive matches is up to them, and none of my business.
On a side note, I've grown quite fond of the stronger jump from walls, it's like a free Leap without using energy and the loud snarling. But of course, I'd also like to see speed-boost return.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1908873:date=Mar 1 2012, 11:23 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 1 2012, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->anyone who decided that running plugins was a better solution than learning to use the new changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem for me is that I see no potential to learn anything at all with the current changes: A free speedboost without any learning curve (more like a learning ledge, either you press the strafe buttons because you know there's a speedboost or you don't). Some slowdowns which feel a bit unnatural, also almost without anything to learn. Walljumping being pretty much down to climbing a wall for one jump and a single speedboost and then losing all of it immediately also lacks a learning experience for me. Combat lacks the time to patiently climb a wall high enough to get a walljump off. You lose more time than you gain by the added speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 2 2012, 08:50 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 2 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This has always fascinated me. I never found myself slipping off walls (if anything found the stickiness a bit too much) and wondered what people were talking about. The funny thing is that now in 199 i am slipping off walls/sliding down them without pressing buttons as if someone had applied a liberal ammount of lubricant on them.
Also, not a fan of the huge ammount of air control currently. Hope it gets tuned down a bit.. The ammount of zigzagging you can do midair is kinda silly.. I think this is a case of too much air control actually making skulks require alot less skill in terms of approach, angle, and staying in range.
I have to agree with alot of the other posters here. 199 skulk movement just isn't very fluid - it doesnt flow like the 198 walljumping did.
<!--quoteo(post=1908880:date=Mar 1 2012, 04:37 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem for me is that I see no potential to learn anything at all with the current changes: A free speedboost without any learning curve (more like a learning ledge, either you press the strafe buttons because you know there's a speedboost or you don't). Some slowdowns which feel a bit unnatural, also almost without anything to learn. Walljumping being pretty much down to climbing a wall for one jump and a single speedboost and then losing all of it immediately also lacks a learning experience for me. Combat lacks the time to patiently climb a wall high enough to get a walljump off. You lose more time than you gain by the added speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The things we're learning are that free speedbosts take no skill, unpredictable friction detection is causing movement to feel unintuitive, and that wall-jumping needs a buff in usability or benefit (and probably in usability). It might seem obvious to us, but UWE has to work through each of these issues in order to find a balance between the wants of every player (and that of their artistic vision).
They've said they don't want to go back to old skulk control, so it's our jobs as testers to give them the information they need to go forward into something as good or better.
I find it strange that 3 years of fighting against bugged and unintuitive gameplay is suddenly overturned because the 10 people who prefer bunnyhopping have continued to constantly post how they want it. Just because they keep posting about it in every single thread discussing every single movement doesn't mean it represents the majority opinion.
Of course we'll have to wait til the current system is fixed to see whether or not it will indeed be as bad as it looks now. But the only complaints I have EVER seen about the skulk movement is that it's not bunnyhopping. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I'll back off.
I really don't see why you get angry at people for trying to mod the game so we can play the skulks like we want to, wasn't that the whole point of making the game so moddable?
<!--quoteo(post=1908897:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Mar 1 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it strange that 3 years of fighting against bugged and unintuitive gameplay is suddenly overturned because the 10 people who prefer bunnyhopping have continued to constantly post how they want it. Just because they keep posting about it in every single thread discussing every single movement doesn't mean it represents the majority opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1, it's the same few people every single time. people need to get over it already. bunnyhop isn't some god-given right in an fps. there's going to be a new movement system, either adapt and learn it or get out of the way. you want bunnyhop, go play ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1908897:date=Mar 1 2012, 05:13 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Mar 1 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see why you get angry at people for trying to mod the game so we can play the skulks like we want to, wasn't that the whole point of making the game so moddable?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What people do with their servers after release is all them, but before it, our feedback shapes how they balance NS2. If we play an alteration of NS2, we're either denying them information they could use to improve the game, or potentially giving them misleading feedback in the case of those of us less informed about server mods.
An NS2 classic mod after release is totally up for grabs, but we're not there by a good ways.
I dont think the devs intent was to change the system to make people that support bunnyhop happy. I will admit i like complete air control as it makes tracking on marines and skulking more skillful. Alot of people seem to forget that skulks are generally supposed to ambush... you shouldnt be wallhopping down a hallway to take out marines. I personally didnt like the previous skulk movement system much, not saying its vastly improved but the walljump felt too spammy, where people just mash space and m1 and hope for the best. I think you guys just need to relax and let them experiment with the movement.
I do find it funny how people now and again try to start discussions regarding bhop that turn into hatefest, and the devs make one change and those people are instantly blamed for it. Stop trying to make it a he-said/she said argument, and just discuss what you like/dislike and leave it at that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1, it's the same few people every single time. people need to get over it already. bunnyhop isn't some god-given right in an fps. there's going to be a new movement system, either adapt and learn it or get out of the way. you want bunnyhop, go play ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bunnyhoppers already won so maybe it is the rest of us who need to adapt.
<!--quoteo(post=1908912:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:30 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Mar 1 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bunnyhoppers already won so maybe it is the rest of us who need to adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1908905:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:24 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 2 2012, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What people do with their servers after release is all them, but before it, our feedback shapes how they balance NS2. If we play an alteration of NS2, we're either denying them information they could use to improve the game, or potentially giving them misleading feedback in the case of those of us less informed about server mods.
An NS2 classic mod after release is totally up for grabs, but we're not there by a good ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I've always thought of hidden server mods on public servers as a bad thing. It completely changes the whole feedback cycle if players don't even know they're playing a modded version of the current game. <ul><li>UWE makes fades stronger. </li><li>Server owner thinks fades are too strong and makes fades weaker and maybe overshoots a tiny bit.</li><li>Players think fade is too weak.</li><li>Go back to point #1.</li></ul> <!--quoteo(post=1908910:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:29 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 2 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally didnt like the previous skulk movement system much, not saying its vastly improved but the walljump felt too spammy, where people just mash space and m1 and hope for the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, that pretty much applies to every jump based movement skill (strafejumping, bunnyhopping, etc.). Most players bind jump to mwheel and hope for the best, but the walljumping system actually had some depth to it if you wanted to use it right and was definitely not just about spamming jumps, but rather timing them right.
I don't endorse the players conjuring up the bhop flamewar, though. Even though the wiggling in the air might remind some of bunnyhopping, it's nowhere near it.
<!--quoteo(post=1908897:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:13 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Mar 1 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see why you get angry at people for trying to mod the game so we can play the skulks like we want to, wasn't that the whole point of making the game so moddable?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two reasons.
A) They are trying to release a game, not 100 versions of a game. Furthermore, you are effectively undermining their work. Let them see how the new movement plays out. There is more polish to come for NS2, movement is not set in stone. The proper time for most modding to occur is when the game is complete. Some modding now is great for <b>testing</b> things and I love that people are doing that. modding an incomplete game to be the game you want isn't productive for the community and sows division that could drive people away from the game. Certainly something that UWE does not want. Lets try to keep the mods for testing ideas at least until UWE is happy with the game and releases it.
B) It appears that you are only modding YOUR client. If I understand that correctly, that would mean that you are the only guy on the server with the different movement characteristics. That is essentially hacking.
<!--quoteo(post=1908905:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:24 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 2 2012, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What people do with their servers after release is all them, but before it, our feedback shapes how they balance NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> isn't a mod to fix something we really really hate the most constructive feedback? it gives an opinion and a solution...
and modifying the skulk movement needs both client and server changes, so you couldn't even play on there with vanilla ns2. See the fademod, fade movement was vastly improved, and made competitive games way more fun (as well as gathers). We're not hired as playtesters, we want to have fun in this game. If you want statistics on an unfinished game, with unfinished classes, with unfinished balancing, users making mods will not significantly influence the data.
I mean, basing balancing on current public games is something weird as well. Whenever I go on a public server with 2-3 clanmates, we win 9 times out of 10 (not bragging, we are probably one of the worst clans in the game). No matter what team we play on. The only scientifically correct way to use win/loss statistics is to take into account the team composition and the player skills, if fana, treffnix or swalk always play aliens, the average statistic for the alien team will be biased towards aliens. However if you allow your statistics to be corelated by player composition, you can eliminate a large portion of this bias by looking at win/loss weighted per player, not per round. They even admitted to not understanding a lot of the results from the current statistics and how they conflict with results from playtests and feedbakc. Imho UWE need someone trained in statistical analysis and user testing.
A) They are trying to release a game, not 100 versions of a game. Furthermore, you are effectively undermining their work. Let them see how the new movement plays out. There is more polish to come for NS2, movement is not set in stone. The proper time for most modding to occur is when the game is complete. Some modding now is great for <b>testing</b> things and I love that people are doing that. modding an incomplete game to be the game you want isn't productive for the community and sows division that could drive people away from the game. Certainly something that UWE does not want. Lets try to keep the mods for testing ideas at least until UWE is happy with the game and releases it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said, then disable modding of the game. <!--quoteo(post=1908917:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:38 AM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Mar 2 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B) It appears that you are only modding YOUR client. If I understand that correctly, that would mean that you are the only guy on the server with the different movement characteristics. That is essentially hacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no, modified movement has to be both client and serverside due to prediction. The fademod was an example, every gather was played on a custom client (ns2.exe -game fadeMod), and on specific servers that had fademod applied (and in most versions, you couldn't even connect if you didn't have the fademod installed)
air control is the ability to move while falling. this is a common game mechanic even present in ....Mario
bunny hopping is an bug in physics code of Quake and many games based off of it. The player can gain speed by strafing while jumping and sometimes crouching <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping</a>
The result is the following with bunnyhopping a) The player does move faster b) The player looks like they are having a seizure.
My opinion is bunny hopping is not intuitive while air control is.
When you jump you sometimes press your strafe buttons because you want to be a little to the left or right off where you are headed. with air control you actually move a bit.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1908917:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:38 AM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Mar 2 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B) It appears that you are only modding YOUR client. If I understand that correctly, that would mean that you are the only guy on the server with the different movement characteristics. That is essentially hacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just to clear this one up: It would be the most stupid networking implementation ever if the client actually determined his own position/velocity/etc, instead of the server. I constantly forgot to turn off Yuuki's Fademod when playing on public servers and the only thing happens is that the server resets my position every tick, making my movement jerk/twitch/lag considerably.
EDIT: I need to be considerably faster writing my posts... I'm a slow thinker, unfortunately :P
Oh and for the record, I have no problem with aircontrol and even bunnyhopping if it feels and plays as good or better as pre-199 skulk play. I just don't want skulkplay to deteriorate, and feel that the point of allowing modding of the engine is to make the game more fun to play. The current statistics are biased at best, and I sincerely hope they base balancing on playtests and not public win/lose stats. <b> Also, I think UWE is by far the most awesome game developer in the world, and I believe the vast majority of the things they do is amazing.</b>
But this doesn't mean I agree with everything they do, and minimizing bias in testing is something I know a bit about (Though my experience is more general, not specific to game testing, the statistical principles still apply)
<!--quoteo(post=1908923:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:46 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to clear this one up: It would be the most stupid networking implementation ever if the client actually determined his own position/velocity/etc, instead of the server. I constantly forgot to turn off Yuuki's Fademod when playing on public servers and the only thing happens is that the server resets my position every tick, making my movement jerk/twitch/lag considerably.
EDIT: I need to be considerably faster writing my posts... I'm a slow thinker, unfortunately :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had the feeling I was waaayy off but I wanted to be certain. Thanks.
Just reconsider my point as what other people said. If you don't know whether the server is modded, you are going to be confused when you go from server to server. Very bad for new players.
Comments
That is all.
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, I think that's what people are really asking for even if their knee jerk reaction is just to want it reverted as a fix.
Are the bunnyhopping speed gains intentional?
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't find 100% air control fun to play. Nor to play against. The zig zagging mid air isn't fun. Watching skulks jump forward then spin around and start moving backward in the air is not fun.
I found the 198 skulk movement a lot better to play as a skulk and as a marine.
I understand your desire to make it work from the ground up, but I'm still not sure which of the changes are intentional and which are not.
Is it intentional that skulks cannot jump when on the ground and close to walls anymore (and, particularly, get a wallhopping speedboost)?
Is it intentional that you get a speedboost by simply spamming A/D in air, but a slowdown on ground whenever you strafe?
Is it intentional that you slow down almost to a full stop when jumping backwards?
Is it intentional that you lose all your momentum from wallhopping instantly?
Concerning the modding to revert changes: I simply thought that most of the things I mentioned were bugs in the new system and wanted to be able to play with an actually working skulk until the new stuff is fixed (I personally don't consider b199 skulk movement as working in any way whatsoever and find myself unable to play this build).
If you don't like the new changes, that's fine, but modding your server won't undo them. We're in beta here, and that means we're here to test. Instead of discussing ways to roll back the changes, you should be discussing ways to improve them, or do damage control. Nail down exactly what parts of the change you find problematic, make your opinion heard, and be done with it. We're here to help UWE make the best game they can, and for just about everyone that means suffering through some aspect or another of the game that they don't like as much as they could.
If a change nerfs something unfairly, ask for buffs or a nerf to its opposition. If it reduced skill, ask for more skill outlets. If it lowered the skill floor, ask for flat-return strategies. I think you'll find UWE want to make a balanced and enjoyable game as much as you do, and even if you disagree on qualitative things like how fun an activity is, the numbers on things like balance and skill effectiveness will be something they're well aware of. Don't just pretend like the change never happened, though; that won't help anybody.
<i>Edit: That took a while to type. Dghelneshi came in with some very good questions that are right on the money, just so long as we keep the server modding out of them.</i>
We've been modding the ENSL servers for ages (Fade mod, increased CC health, anti-minespam, whatever was currently broken in the opinion of most players) to try out or just plainly change things that we think improve the game. The base game has or had some problems I think are/were obvious and I just want a mostly working game to enjoy playing and sometimes mods are needed for that, as this is still not a finished game.
The movement was much more skill based in 198 than it is currently. I certainly do hope you add some more 'skill outlets' as someone called them, because the new system is very restrictive compared to the old one. You could really flourish as a skulk in 198, but I bet the oldskool players which had their minds hell-bent on bunnyhopping couldn't learn it. I feel like that even the devs didn't know how good the system in 198 was.
I guess I'll lay back a patch or two and wait, the skulk is currently unplayable.
Unless some big changes are made to one direction or other after 199, there will definitely be mods to return the 198 movement.
PS. Either way, thanks for your answer Cory.
I added an edit to my post before that. I wasn't targeting you with my post, it just happened to go in before mine went up.
What I wrote was just directed at the people I mentioned in its opening: anyone who decided that running plugins was a better solution than learning to use the new changes. What anybody does for private/competitive matches is up to them, and none of my business.
The problem for me is that I see no potential to learn anything at all with the current changes:
A free speedboost without any learning curve (more like a learning ledge, either you press the strafe buttons because you know there's a speedboost or you don't).
Some slowdowns which feel a bit unnatural, also almost without anything to learn.
Walljumping being pretty much down to climbing a wall for one jump and a single speedboost and then losing all of it immediately also lacks a learning experience for me. Combat lacks the time to patiently climb a wall high enough to get a walljump off. You lose more time than you gain by the added speed.
This has always fascinated me. I never found myself slipping off walls (if anything found the stickiness a bit too much) and wondered what people were talking about. The funny thing is that now in 199 i am slipping off walls/sliding down them without pressing buttons as if someone had applied a liberal ammount of lubricant on them.
Also, not a fan of the huge ammount of air control currently. Hope it gets tuned down a bit.. The ammount of zigzagging you can do midair is kinda silly.. I think this is a case of too much air control actually making skulks require alot less skill in terms of approach, angle, and staying in range.
I have to agree with alot of the other posters here. 199 skulk movement just isn't very fluid - it doesnt flow like the 198 walljumping did.
A free speedboost without any learning curve (more like a learning ledge, either you press the strafe buttons because you know there's a speedboost or you don't).
Some slowdowns which feel a bit unnatural, also almost without anything to learn.
Walljumping being pretty much down to climbing a wall for one jump and a single speedboost and then losing all of it immediately also lacks a learning experience for me. Combat lacks the time to patiently climb a wall high enough to get a walljump off. You lose more time than you gain by the added speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The things we're learning are that free speedbosts take no skill, unpredictable friction detection is causing movement to feel unintuitive, and that wall-jumping needs a buff in usability or benefit (and probably in usability). It might seem obvious to us, but UWE has to work through each of these issues in order to find a balance between the wants of every player (and that of their artistic vision).
They've said they don't want to go back to old skulk control, so it's our jobs as testers to give them the information they need to go forward into something as good or better.
Of course we'll have to wait til the current system is fixed to see whether or not it will indeed be as bad as it looks now. But the only complaints I have EVER seen about the skulk movement is that it's not bunnyhopping. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I'll back off.
I really don't see why you get angry at people for trying to mod the game so we can play the skulks like we want to, wasn't that the whole point of making the game so moddable?
+1, it's the same few people every single time. people need to get over it already. bunnyhop isn't some god-given right in an fps. there's going to be a new movement system, either adapt and learn it or get out of the way. you want bunnyhop, go play ns1.
What people do with their servers after release is all them, but before it, our feedback shapes how they balance NS2. If we play an alteration of NS2, we're either denying them information they could use to improve the game, or potentially giving them misleading feedback in the case of those of us less informed about server mods.
An NS2 classic mod after release is totally up for grabs, but we're not there by a good ways.
I do find it funny how people now and again try to start discussions regarding bhop that turn into hatefest, and the devs make one change and those people are instantly blamed for it. Stop trying to make it a he-said/she said argument, and just discuss what you like/dislike and leave it at that.
The bunnyhoppers already won so maybe it is the rest of us who need to adapt.
maybe. :\
An NS2 classic mod after release is totally up for grabs, but we're not there by a good ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I've always thought of hidden server mods on public servers as a bad thing. It completely changes the whole feedback cycle if players don't even know they're playing a modded version of the current game.
<ul><li>UWE makes fades stronger. </li><li>Server owner thinks fades are too strong and makes fades weaker and maybe overshoots a tiny bit.</li><li>Players think fade is too weak.</li><li>Go back to point #1.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1908910:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:29 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 2 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally didnt like the previous skulk movement system much, not saying its vastly improved but the walljump felt too spammy, where people just mash space and m1 and hope for the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that pretty much applies to every jump based movement skill (strafejumping, bunnyhopping, etc.). Most players bind jump to mwheel and hope for the best, but the walljumping system actually had some depth to it if you wanted to use it right and was definitely not just about spamming jumps, but rather timing them right.
I don't endorse the players conjuring up the bhop flamewar, though. Even though the wiggling in the air might remind some of bunnyhopping, it's nowhere near it.
Two reasons.
A) They are trying to release a game, not 100 versions of a game. Furthermore, you are effectively undermining their work. Let them see how the new movement plays out. There is more polish to come for NS2, movement is not set in stone. The proper time for most modding to occur is when the game is complete. Some modding now is great for <b>testing</b> things and I love that people are doing that. modding an incomplete game to be the game you want isn't productive for the community and sows division that could drive people away from the game. Certainly something that UWE does not want. Lets try to keep the mods for testing ideas at least until UWE is happy with the game and releases it.
B) It appears that you are only modding YOUR client. If I understand that correctly, that would mean that you are the only guy on the server with the different movement characteristics. That is essentially hacking.
Edit: Dghelneshi nailed it.
isn't a mod to fix something we really really hate the most constructive feedback? it gives an opinion and a solution...
and modifying the skulk movement needs both client and server changes, so you couldn't even play on there with vanilla ns2. See the fademod, fade movement was vastly improved, and made competitive games way more fun (as well as gathers). We're not hired as playtesters, we want to have fun in this game. If you want statistics on an unfinished game, with unfinished classes, with unfinished balancing, users making mods will not significantly influence the data.
I mean, basing balancing on current public games is something weird as well. Whenever I go on a public server with 2-3 clanmates, we win 9 times out of 10 (not bragging, we are probably one of the worst clans in the game). No matter what team we play on. The only scientifically correct way to use win/loss statistics is to take into account the team composition and the player skills, if fana, treffnix or swalk always play aliens, the average statistic for the alien team will be biased towards aliens. However if you allow your statistics to be corelated by player composition, you can eliminate a large portion of this bias by looking at win/loss weighted per player, not per round. They even admitted to not understanding a lot of the results from the current statistics and how they conflict with results from playtests and feedbakc. Imho UWE need someone trained in statistical analysis and user testing.
A) They are trying to release a game, not 100 versions of a game. Furthermore, you are effectively undermining their work. Let them see how the new movement plays out. There is more polish to come for NS2, movement is not set in stone. The proper time for most modding to occur is when the game is complete. Some modding now is great for <b>testing</b> things and I love that people are doing that. modding an incomplete game to be the game you want isn't productive for the community and sows division that could drive people away from the game. Certainly something that UWE does not want. Lets try to keep the mods for testing ideas at least until UWE is happy with the game and releases it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, then disable modding of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1908917:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:38 AM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Mar 2 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B) It appears that you are only modding YOUR client. If I understand that correctly, that would mean that you are the only guy on the server with the different movement characteristics. That is essentially hacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, modified movement has to be both client and serverside due to prediction. The fademod was an example, every gather was played on a custom client (ns2.exe -game fadeMod), and on specific servers that had fademod applied (and in most versions, you couldn't even connect if you didn't have the fademod installed)
air control is the ability to move while falling.
this is a common game mechanic even present in ....Mario
bunny hopping is an bug in physics code of Quake and many games based off of it.
The player can gain speed by strafing while jumping and sometimes crouching
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping</a>
The result is the following with bunnyhopping
a) The player does move faster
b) The player looks like they are having a seizure.
My opinion is bunny hopping is not intuitive while air control is.
When you jump you sometimes press your strafe buttons because you want to be a little to the left or right off where you are headed.
with air control you actually move a bit.
Just to clear this one up: It would be the most stupid networking implementation ever if the client actually determined his own position/velocity/etc, instead of the server. I constantly forgot to turn off Yuuki's Fademod when playing on public servers and the only thing happens is that the server resets my position every tick, making my movement jerk/twitch/lag considerably.
EDIT: I need to be considerably faster writing my posts... I'm a slow thinker, unfortunately :P
<b>
Also, I think UWE is by far the most awesome game developer in the world, and I believe the vast majority of the things they do is amazing.</b>
But this doesn't mean I agree with everything they do, and minimizing bias in testing is something I know a bit about (Though my experience is more general, not specific to game testing, the statistical principles still apply)
EDIT: I need to be considerably faster writing my posts... I'm a slow thinker, unfortunately :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had the feeling I was waaayy off but I wanted to be certain. Thanks.
Just reconsider my point as what other people said. If you don't know whether the server is modded, you are going to be confused when you go from server to server. Very bad for new players.