<!--quoteo(post=1909319:date=Mar 3 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 3 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We definitely don't want to restore the old Skulk movement: there was a BIG bug in it, resulting in players with faster computers actually being able to MOVE faster. Raise your hand if you want a game that gives that advantage. I didn't think so.
The proper balance for the Skulk may not be in this version, but we'll continue to iterate until he feels smooth and great on every machine.
But if you had a very fast machine before, I'm afraid that "old skulk" will be gone for good. At least you got to enjoy super-powers for awhile...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want "people with faster computers to have an advantage" i want "everybody regardless of computer" have a similiar gameplay like people with beefy computers had with 198. Or in terms of Balance PR: Buff everybody instead of nerfing a few.
But if hardware based advantages are such an huge issue, how about we just limit client fps to 30? Wouldn't that be an good start for perfect and equal balance? :P
I played with this build the first time last night, and hated the skulk. I kept sticking to walls or the floor, when before I would be jumping everywhere around a marine. Then when I tried to walk up a wall, the game didn't detect my intention and I just got stuck and died.
<!--quoteo(post=1909319:date=Mar 3 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 3 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We definitely don't want to restore the old Skulk movement: there was a BIG bug in it, resulting in players with faster computers actually being able to MOVE faster. Raise your hand if you want a game that gives that advantage. I didn't think so.
The proper balance for the Skulk may not be in this version, but we'll continue to iterate until he feels smooth and great on every machine.
But if you had a very fast machine before, I'm afraid that "old skulk" will be gone for good. At least you got to enjoy super-powers for awhile...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Any numbers on how much faster, just out of curiosity? I was developing ns2_skulkjump at constant 100fps and got up to speed 13 with a few well timed walljumps, but I heard from people with less powerful machines that they could get up to speed 13 in larger maps with less fps as well. Nevertheless speed was capped at 13, and a single strafejump never gave more speed than up to 8,5 even though I had a pretty nice fps in larger maps.
Of course bugs like these should be fixed, but just as a mention, fps-tied physics bugs have been witnessed before. In Quake2 you could jump on top of a 64 unit tall box only if you had over 100 fps. Otherwise it was 60-63 units or something. And CoD4 people use fps in 125 increments, but I don't know the real reason for that.
The velocity is controlled sever side so the only way to gain speed with high fps is to send more inputs to the server, or maybe I don't understand anything :)
All right. I think I might have to eat my hat and apologize for barking at the build 199 skulk. I jumped around summit for <i>a couple of hours</i> and figured out the exact mechanic to 199 skulk movement. I started liking a bit more, but still I prefer 198. This, however, revealed something UWE probably didn't want the skulk to do either, so we (me and UWE) can both call us hypocrites! Let's compare, with a video!
In the video, the b198 skulk is first and takes 60 seconds for a round trip. 199 skulk is second and takes 53 seconds. But the 199 skulk's walking speed is approximately 14% faster so it makes sense. The clips are both "best result out of 10 tries" recorded at 80 fps. No scripts used. In the 198 clip, red bar is momentum (stored energy from successive succeeded walljumps), in the 199 video it's just speed. I recorded 198 run right after the 199 one and I made a few mistakes because the movement is so very different, so that accounts to a few seconds as well.
<u>198 skulk walljumping mechanics:</u> - Time your jumps with the speed meter's white bar (when it hits the top) for most momentum and speed. - The more you aim along the wall normal (a vector pointing directly away from the wall that you are clinging to), the more you get speed boost when you jump. But jumping sideways from the wall also gives you some boost. - The speed boost is applied towards the direction you are moving and watching, so aiming upwards will send your skulk in an arc. - Two or three jumps are required from wall to wall for maximum speed & momentum. - You can retain momentum by jumping immediately after hitting the ground. - You retain a lot of momentum if you keep running along walls after gathering it. <i> => Very complex system, but rewards you for many successes in a row. Timing each jump to get extra speed is hard.</i>
<u>199 skulk walljumping mechanics:</u> - You get the maximum jump speed off a wall when you are clinging to it and jump off with the minimum amount of wall attraction left, ie. you jump when you've floated away from the wall as much as possible while the game still considers you 'walking on the wall'. - The more you aim along the wall normal (a vector pointing directly away from the wall that you are clinging to), the more you get speed boost when you jump. Jumping sideways from the wall gives you no boost (ie not pointing where you jump) - Matching your jump with the white bar doesn't seem to matter at all. - Pressing A or D to slide left or right in the air messes up the jumping completely - for maximum speed you should only hold W. (air control too strong) - By doing a perfect walljump after one walljump (ie. you only graze along the minimum distance to get attraction to a wall, then jump), you can get to ridiculous speeds. Theoretically towards infinite, if you do infinite perfect walljumps just by grazing the wall. Probably would work if the entire map was only a stairway leading downwards. <b>- If you jump immediately after hitting the ground, almost frame perfectly, it's just like bunnyhopping</b>, see: video. This is very hard to do however, and oftentimes when you jump right after hitting the ground, you can hear the jump sound but you don't actually jump. If you fail, you lose all extra speed immediately. <i> => Easier system, no rewards from multiple walljumps, unless near frame perfect execution. Bunnyhopping possible to some extent.</i>
I thought UWE didn't want the skulk to have a bunnyhop mechanic.
Comments?
PS. Reasons why I like 198: - Reward for successive jumps from walls. - Way unique mechanic with the storing of momentum - More air control by LESS air control (you can press left and right in the air without veering way off to the side, actual air control comes from turning the skulk with your mouse) - Difficult
Why I don't like 199 so much: - Easier - Rewards from successive jumps from the floor (bunnyhop style) - Practically only one jump from a wall required to get to 'maximum speed' - You lose all speed immediately when you land (unless you get a near frame-perfect jump and it doesn't bug out) - Too much air control, pressing left or right while in air is really off-putting
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
<i><b>[Clarification, this is for b198]</b></i> I have a <b>very</b> different wall-jumping style, which also made me ~5sec faster than you on my first try with lots of mistakes. I stay on the ground <b>at all times</b> and just forward-strafe into the wall and jump. If I want to get away from a wall, I just press the strafe button away from the wall instead (while still pressing forward) and possibly changing view direction, depending on how big I want the angle to be. <i><b>[end b198]</b></i>
It's not possible at all in b199 to use this style, which is why I was so irritated by the patch. In b199 you cannot jump at all when near a wall, which is also what made you fail some of your jumps I think. And you should try spamming A/D in midair in b199, it makes you at least a bit faster than running speed (~9.5).
For reference, I have 40-50fps. EDIT: Just made the first 50sec run (b198, I'm unable to do b199 style at all). I keep making mistakes all the time (especially in flight control) and I never get a 100% consistent system out of the speedboost.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
I do agree, but my style is a lot easier to use and usually faster for general getting-around-the-map. I also think it can be more useful in some combat situations since you just don't have any time to get actually <b>on</b> a wall instead of just getting <b>near</b> a wall.
But let's see what Schimmel comes up with in b200. It's a bit broken now, so let's wait and hope for the best.
Good job testing the mechanics more deeply, I think it's really usefull. 198 does look better, but it also looks quite bad in absolute. I mean one of the goal of the new movement mechanic is to be more intuitive than bunny hopping, and getting speed by jumping on a wall is not very intuitive to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1909476:date=Mar 3 2012, 06:03 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 3 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But let's see what Schimmel comes up with in b200. It's a bit broken now, so let's wait and hope for the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. I wish I could test it before they release it so I could give feedback beforehand. :)
Edit: Darn making coherent posts is difficult sometimes.
Further analysis was done. Observation: Build 199 skulk gets the walljump speed boost not only to the jump that it uses to leave the wall, but to all jumps within 1-2 seconds or so. Conclusion: Turbo skulk is a go.
Raise your hand if you think this is better than build 198 skulk. I didn't think so. <img src="http://th80.photobucket.com/albums/j192/lonewolf147/emoticons/th_laughing.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1909490:date=Mar 3 2012, 04:22 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 3 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further analysis was done. Observation: Build 199 skulk gets the walljump speed boost not only to the jump that it uses to leave the wall, but to all jumps within 1-2 seconds or so. Conclusion: Turbo skulk is a go.
Raise your hand if you think this is better than build 198 skulk. I didn't think so. <img src="http://th80.photobucket.com/albums/j192/lonewolf147/emoticons/th_laughing.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only every jump would maintain momentum at the very least if not build it :( The movement is a pain to me and not worth the effort. I cant even hit more than a 9, i pop an 11 at weird times and no idea why.
*edit* and i know this is carry over from my bhop days and muscle memory but i hate holding the forward button lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1909506:date=Mar 3 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Mar 3 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you'll like the next iteration much better. Hang in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope so, I PCS back to the states in May ready to play without lag. Stupid island... closest server is over 1000 miles away. I wanna play with REAL people.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1909503:date=Mar 3 2012, 07:17 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Mar 3 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the speed meter is bongo and do not indicate your actual speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It measures xz speed (horizontal plane speed) only - vertical speed is ignored. Just run straight up a wall and see your zero speed.
This is because only xz speed is capped (otherwise falling would be ...weird..).
<!--quoteo(post=1909606:date=Mar 3 2012, 05:54 PM:name=ÒŗăNģё)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Mar 3 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade bhop, not sure if this was intended but it sure seems useful
that looks awesome, but it's a shame the speed seems to be capped. would be nice to single tap blink to be able to propel yourself forward without actually blinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1909606:date=Mar 3 2012, 05:54 PM:name=ÒŗăNģё)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Mar 3 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade bhop, not sure if this was intended but it sure seems useful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cue debate about bhopping, new games vs old games and other assorted crying*
<!--quoteo(post=1909662:date=Mar 4 2012, 12:11 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 4 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*cue debate about bhopping, new games vs old games and other assorted crying*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*click click* Woot, got a picture of the not so hard to capture "Troll". lol
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->12:58 < Skiedragon> I want you to close this thread which I started, because I feel like it has run its course: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116743" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116743</a> 12:59 < Skiedragon> ie about to devolve into trolling, and there's multiple threads about the subject going around<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
The proper balance for the Skulk may not be in this version, but we'll continue to iterate until he feels smooth and great on every machine.
But if you had a very fast machine before, I'm afraid that "old skulk" will be gone for good. At least you got to enjoy super-powers for awhile...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want "people with faster computers to have an advantage" i want "everybody regardless of computer" have a similiar gameplay like people with beefy computers had with 198.
Or in terms of Balance PR: Buff everybody instead of nerfing a few.
But if hardware based advantages are such an huge issue, how about we just limit client fps to 30? Wouldn't that be an good start for perfect and equal balance? :P
The proper balance for the Skulk may not be in this version, but we'll continue to iterate until he feels smooth and great on every machine.
But if you had a very fast machine before, I'm afraid that "old skulk" will be gone for good. At least you got to enjoy super-powers for awhile...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any numbers on how much faster, just out of curiosity? I was developing ns2_skulkjump at constant 100fps and got up to speed 13 with a few well timed walljumps, but I heard from people with less powerful machines that they could get up to speed 13 in larger maps with less fps as well. Nevertheless speed was capped at 13, and a single strafejump never gave more speed than up to 8,5 even though I had a pretty nice fps in larger maps.
Of course bugs like these should be fixed, but just as a mention, fps-tied physics bugs have been witnessed before. In Quake2 you could jump on top of a 64 unit tall box only if you had over 100 fps. Otherwise it was 60-63 units or something. And CoD4 people use fps in 125 increments, but I don't know the real reason for that.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K7T_Qcd-ULs"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K7T_Qcd-ULs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
In the video, the b198 skulk is first and takes 60 seconds for a round trip. 199 skulk is second and takes 53 seconds. But the 199 skulk's walking speed is approximately 14% faster so it makes sense. The clips are both "best result out of 10 tries" recorded at 80 fps. No scripts used. In the 198 clip, red bar is momentum (stored energy from successive succeeded walljumps), in the 199 video it's just speed. I recorded 198 run right after the 199 one and I made a few mistakes because the movement is so very different, so that accounts to a few seconds as well.
<u>198 skulk walljumping mechanics:</u>
- Time your jumps with the speed meter's white bar (when it hits the top) for most momentum and speed.
- The more you aim along the wall normal (a vector pointing directly away from the wall that you are clinging to), the more you get speed boost when you jump. But jumping sideways from the wall also gives you some boost.
- The speed boost is applied towards the direction you are moving and watching, so aiming upwards will send your skulk in an arc.
- Two or three jumps are required from wall to wall for maximum speed & momentum.
- You can retain momentum by jumping immediately after hitting the ground.
- You retain a lot of momentum if you keep running along walls after gathering it.
<i> => Very complex system, but rewards you for many successes in a row. Timing each jump to get extra speed is hard.</i>
<u>199 skulk walljumping mechanics:</u>
- You get the maximum jump speed off a wall when you are clinging to it and jump off with the minimum amount of wall attraction left, ie. you jump when you've floated away from the wall as much as possible while the game still considers you 'walking on the wall'.
- The more you aim along the wall normal (a vector pointing directly away from the wall that you are clinging to), the more you get speed boost when you jump. Jumping sideways from the wall gives you no boost (ie not pointing where you jump)
- Matching your jump with the white bar doesn't seem to matter at all.
- Pressing A or D to slide left or right in the air messes up the jumping completely - for maximum speed you should only hold W. (air control too strong)
- By doing a perfect walljump after one walljump (ie. you only graze along the minimum distance to get attraction to a wall, then jump), you can get to ridiculous speeds. Theoretically towards infinite, if you do infinite perfect walljumps just by grazing the wall. Probably would work if the entire map was only a stairway leading downwards.
<b>- If you jump immediately after hitting the ground, almost frame perfectly, it's just like bunnyhopping</b>, see: video. This is very hard to do however, and oftentimes when you jump right after hitting the ground, you can hear the jump sound but you don't actually jump. If you fail, you lose all extra speed immediately.
<i> => Easier system, no rewards from multiple walljumps, unless near frame perfect execution. Bunnyhopping possible to some extent.</i>
I thought UWE didn't want the skulk to have a bunnyhop mechanic.
Comments?
PS. Reasons why I like 198:
- Reward for successive jumps from walls.
- Way unique mechanic with the storing of momentum
- More air control by LESS air control (you can press left and right in the air without veering way off to the side, actual air control comes from turning the skulk with your mouse)
- Difficult
Why I don't like 199 so much:
- Easier
- Rewards from successive jumps from the floor (bunnyhop style)
- Practically only one jump from a wall required to get to 'maximum speed'
- You lose all speed immediately when you land (unless you get a near frame-perfect jump and it doesn't bug out)
- Too much air control, pressing left or right while in air is really off-putting
It's not possible at all in b199 to use this style, which is why I was so irritated by the patch. In b199 you cannot jump at all when near a wall, which is also what made you fail some of your jumps I think.
And you should try spamming A/D in midair in b199, it makes you at least a bit faster than running speed (~9.5).
For reference, I have 40-50fps.
EDIT: Just made the first 50sec run (b198, I'm unable to do b199 style at all). I keep making mistakes all the time (especially in flight control) and I never get a 100% consistent system out of the speedboost.
I also think it can be more useful in some combat situations since you just don't have any time to get actually <b>on</b> a wall instead of just getting <b>near</b> a wall.
But let's see what Schimmel comes up with in b200. It's a bit broken now, so let's wait and hope for the best.
Yeah. I wish I could test it before they release it so I could give feedback beforehand. :)
Edit: Darn making coherent posts is difficult sometimes.
Observation: Build 199 skulk gets the walljump speed boost not only to the jump that it uses to leave the wall, but to all jumps within 1-2 seconds or so.
Conclusion: Turbo skulk is a go.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VLWBd8KiOiI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VLWBd8KiOiI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Raise your hand if you think this is better than build 198 skulk. I didn't think so. <img src="http://th80.photobucket.com/albums/j192/lonewolf147/emoticons/th_laughing.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
PS: Sorry, couldn't resist.
Observation: Build 199 skulk gets the walljump speed boost not only to the jump that it uses to leave the wall, but to all jumps within 1-2 seconds or so.
Conclusion: Turbo skulk is a go.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VLWBd8KiOiI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VLWBd8KiOiI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Raise your hand if you think this is better than build 198 skulk. I didn't think so. <img src="http://th80.photobucket.com/albums/j192/lonewolf147/emoticons/th_laughing.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only every jump would maintain momentum at the very least if not build it :( The movement is a pain to me and not worth the effort. I cant even hit more than a 9, i pop an 11 at weird times and no idea why.
*edit* and i know this is carry over from my bhop days and muscle memory but i hate holding the forward button lol.
I hope so, I PCS back to the states in May ready to play without lag. Stupid island... closest server is over 1000 miles away. I wanna play with REAL people.
It measures xz speed (horizontal plane speed) only - vertical speed is ignored. Just run straight up a wall and see your zero speed.
This is because only xz speed is capped (otherwise falling would be ...weird..).
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P6Y2FttOf44"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P6Y2FttOf44" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P6Y2FttOf44"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P6Y2FttOf44" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that looks awesome, but it's a shame the speed seems to be capped. would be nice to single tap blink to be able to propel yourself forward without actually blinking.
*cue debate about bhopping, new games vs old games and other assorted crying*
*click click* Woot, got a picture of the not so hard to capture "Troll". lol
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->12:58 < Skiedragon> I want you to close this thread which I started, because I
feel like it has run its course:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116743" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116743</a>
12:59 < Skiedragon> ie about to devolve into trolling, and there's multiple
threads about the subject going around<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->