Fades Need A Stealth Penalty
Awesomerobo
Join Date: 2012-03-08 Member: 148449Members
Join Date: 2012-03-08 Member: 148449Members
So one thing I've noticed during most games is that the second that Kharaa get a second hive up, its typically automatic game over for the marines on the most part. The second that fades start harrassing any group of marines lower in number than 4, everyone typically ends up dead thanks to the one hit kill the fades usually deliver (even at l2 armor).
The biggest problem I've noticed is that Fades can exploit their stealth option mixed with regen to basically pop in, kill someone and immediately fade out to regen before repeating. Marines don't stand a chance against this, especially when they can pop in, one shot a marine and blink out in a matter of a second. Add two fades and its close to impossible to kill them unless the person playing the fade is severely clumsy.
My suggestion to address this issue (Which most people have been complaining about on the servers), is to either add a short cooldown before Fades can stealth out, or make the stealth regen somewhat slower. Early fades (Pretty much failing to prevent Hive 2 from going up) are currently the game ender in most matches, as even marines with shotguns have nothing on an enemy that can cloak in and out instantly without any penalty. I could understand fades being hard to take out during a 2v1, but having fades that can currently devastate a room with 4 marines without barely taking any damage is a little too much.
I've noticed playing Kharaa as a Fade that I typically can stay alive the entire round with the health regen evolution and barely take any damage. The sheer speed of the stealth mode for exiting a fight makes it pretty easy to avoid taking damage.
The biggest problem I've noticed is that Fades can exploit their stealth option mixed with regen to basically pop in, kill someone and immediately fade out to regen before repeating. Marines don't stand a chance against this, especially when they can pop in, one shot a marine and blink out in a matter of a second. Add two fades and its close to impossible to kill them unless the person playing the fade is severely clumsy.
My suggestion to address this issue (Which most people have been complaining about on the servers), is to either add a short cooldown before Fades can stealth out, or make the stealth regen somewhat slower. Early fades (Pretty much failing to prevent Hive 2 from going up) are currently the game ender in most matches, as even marines with shotguns have nothing on an enemy that can cloak in and out instantly without any penalty. I could understand fades being hard to take out during a 2v1, but having fades that can currently devastate a room with 4 marines without barely taking any damage is a little too much.
I've noticed playing Kharaa as a Fade that I typically can stay alive the entire round with the health regen evolution and barely take any damage. The sheer speed of the stealth mode for exiting a fight makes it pretty easy to avoid taking damage.
Comments
I don't think you play very often. Most the time it's two hit to kill, unless a rine has some missing health.
I don't think you play very often. Most the time it's two hit to kill, unless a rine has some missing health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you heard of stab? 160 damage. Even their light attacks do 70 damage a hit, thats pretty damn powerful.
Fades are supposed to be scary but their not as hard to kill as you think and if people are dying to fade secondary attack then i recommend walking away from the fade when he does it. If a fade is killing 4 marines without taking damage, then i have to say the 4 marines were totally outplayed or couldn't aim.
You have however nailed an important point in that fades are appearing too early. Hive costs are a bit on the low side i think such that alot of newer players are being punished perhaps a bit too harshly for generally being a bit slower to get things going etc.
related comments from me: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116735&view=findpost&p=1911179" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911179</a>
I don't know who the hell uses stab in the middle of a heated battle, but alright.
About Swipe and Stab, they are Puncture damage type, so 50% more damage vs. players (Swipe = 105, Stab = 240)
Fades are supposed to be scary but their not as hard to kill as you think and if people are dying to fade secondary attack then i recommend walking away from the fade when he does it. If a fade is killing 4 marines without taking damage, then i have to say the 4 marines were totally outplayed or couldn't aim.
You have however nailed an important point in that fades are appearing too early. Hive costs are a bit on the low side i think such that alot of newer players are being punished perhaps a bit too harshly for generally being a bit slower to get things going etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, I think in terms of how fast fades go up compared to marine tech progression there's a definite issue here. Unless Hive 2 is denied early, Fades tend to tip the matches in favor of the Kharaa quick.
<!--quoteo(post=1911455:date=Mar 8 2012, 10:12 PM:name=RockyMarc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RockyMarc @ Mar 8 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stealth penalty, try a flame thrower :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flame throwers are end game for marines. By the time Fades show up, marines usually only have shotguns and possibly l2 armor. Fades can trip mines without taking damage due to their speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1911456:date=Mar 8 2012, 10:14 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 8 2012, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think fades are imbalanced, you probably need to figure out the strategy called "aiming."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. So to take down a Fade you need 2 well placed shotgun blasts at close range. If you manage to land one hit the fade is long gone if he's half decent to go regen health. Try contributing to the discussion instead of leaving trollbait comments.
<!--quoteo(post=1911458:date=Mar 8 2012, 10:28 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Mar 8 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About Swipe and Stab, they are Puncture damage type, so 50% more damage vs. players (Swipe = 105, Stab = 240)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just checked the wiki, and that confirms that they can one shot marines then. I thought that with a .65 second delay between hits, they were landing 2 hits in quick succession to take me down in about a second but this makes more sense. How about removing puncture from swipe?
It takes less time to shoot the shotgun twice than it does to do 3x primary attacks with the fade. The secondary attack is incredibly hard to hit and I have never been killed by it in a recent patch. It also leaves you vulnerable to get owned by marines. Fades die incredibly fast when they are standing still.
<!--quoteo(post=1911475:date=Mar 9 2012, 02:14 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Mar 9 2012, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade is 2 hit kill on armour 1 and below 3 on armour 2 and 3. The tide does tend to turn when the fades come out, but I think thats because we dont see flamers nearly often enough. Also using the 2nd attack is a death sentence for a fade against any non restarted marine team, as it immobilizes you for almost a sec and makes you a sitting duck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade primary (the only attack anyone uses) takes 2 hits on full hp/armor marines with armor 0 and armor 1. They take 3 hits @ armor 2. If you don't have armor 2, you are going to lose to fades. A decent comm knows this and will have armor 2 by the time fades come out.
Fades are not game ending to deal with when they come out assuming you are prepared for them. And late game they are definitely not overpowered.
There is no excuse for not having shotguns well before Fades are around, and with some decent aim (yes it might be hard if the server tickrates are low), Fades can be swiftly dispatched with 2 well placed shots. Considering the new Fade blink momentum change as well as the delay between exiting blink and being able to swipe, it is very possible to pump those two shotgun rounds into the Fade before it can retreat, and even if you don't manage to kill the Fade, the increased blink cost recently introduced also allows you the opportunity to pump a few finishing rounds into a retreating Fade. Blink costs so much energy, (10 to enter, and 50 per second added immediately), unless the Fade pops in only to immediately retreat, there are going to be the moments when the Fade needs to regenerate energy, either mid combat or in retreat that it won't be in blink. You'd be amazed how many instances I have managed to finish off a Fade retreating for either health or energy reasons, both of which render the fade crucially vulnerable. In reality, Fades really do have little actual health; its dealing your damage in the windows of opportunity that count, and predicting their movement takes practice.
Also I have to also say the Stab is HORRIBLE. It used to be quite effective in combat, but now that its range is a meager faction of what it was before, its no viable justification for the 1.5 second delay before when you are completely immobilized, and when you actually deal any damage, and that is more than enough time, (166% of required time not even considering the delay between when the Fade exits blink, which it usually does before commencing an attack, and it can even activate stab) for a marine to pump two shotgun rounds into you, since you'd have to be pretty close to be able to do any damage anyway, which marines can easily dodge. I'm surprised the devs haven't removed the ability yet, or at least made if viable for anything other than ambushes or for humiliation kills, Swipe is simply so much more efficient and still quite deadly.
It really does sadden me how much Fades have had to be gimped during the course of the development cycle of NS2, they have less armor than a Gorge and can't spend more than 1 second in blink at a time, i can only imagine the misery it will be once Exosuits become involved.
There is no excuse for not having shotguns well before Fades are around, and with some decent aim (yes it might be hard if the server tickrates are low), Fades can be swiftly dispatched with 2 well placed shots. Considering the new Fade blink momentum change as well as the delay between exiting blink and being able to swipe, it is very possible to pump those two shotgun rounds into the Fade before it can retreat, and even if you don't manage to kill the Fade, the increased blink cost recently introduced also allows you the opportunity to pump a few finishing rounds into a retreating Fade. Blink costs so much energy, (10 to enter, and 50 per second added immediately), unless the Fade pops in only to immediately retreat, there are going to be the moments when the Fade needs to regenerate energy, either mid combat or in retreat that it won't be in blink. You'd be amazed how many instances I have managed to finish off a Fade retreating for either health or energy reasons, both of which render the fade crucially vulnerable. In reality, Fades really do have little actual health; its dealing your damage in the windows of opportunity that count, and predicting their movement takes practice.
Also I have to also say the Stab is HORRIBLE. It used to be quite effective in combat, but now that its range is a meager faction of what it was before, its no viable justification for the 1.5 second delay before when you are completely immobilized, and when you actually deal any damage, and that is more than enough time, (166% of required time not even considering the delay between when the Fade exits blink, which it usually does before commencing an attack, and it can even activate stab) for a marine to pump two shotgun rounds into you, since you'd have to be pretty close to be able to do any damage anyway, which marines can easily dodge. I'm surprised the devs haven't removed the ability yet, or at least made if viable for anything other than ambushes or for humiliation kills, Swipe is simply so much more efficient and still quite deadly.
It really does sadden me how much Fades have had to be gimped during the course of the development cycle of NS2, they have less armor than a Gorge and can't spend more than 1 second in blink at a time, i can only imagine the misery it will be once Exosuits become involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy gets it.
Maybe this has something to do with fades being 'OP', the fact they come so 'early' and are max upgraded (with your choice of cara, frenzy etc) as soon as available. ?
Source? If so, Aliens can't ever have anything nice...
I believe the real challenge is balancing the fade for gameplay across all skill levels. The fade's abilities are so unique and alien (chuckle chuckle) that a good 100% of new players will be obliterated by them in the hands of even an average player.
Some advice: If you can't aim a shotgun for whatever reason then the flamethrower or flamethrower & jetpack are the best alternatives to counter fades. Just tap jump, aim down at the fade and spray away.
I don't think you play very often. Most the time it's two hit to kill, unless a rine has some missing health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, i have no idea whats all about these "aliens are to strong" trashtalk...
I mean come on, play aliens and you will see how it is to play aliens.
Specialy fades, one hit direct, they are dead.
And fadestab has a delay.
Anyway, its not fun anymore to see all these crying people, maybe you guys should play a bit more aliens.
or wait for some upgrades...its a B E T A and there will come minigun(s) with heavy armor and stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1911503:date=Mar 9 2012, 10:14 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Mar 9 2012, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Source? I<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Swarm AND frenzy will be removed:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=116693&view=findpost&p=1909320" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1909320</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1911503:date=Mar 9 2012, 10:14 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Mar 9 2012, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If so, Aliens can't ever have anything nice...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the problem, most (marine only) player, they cry about aliens are to strong.( because they can't hit them...need more skill?).
Its a beta and not done, i can not understand the crying about aliens all the time, i mean if marines play well and aliens, the marines will win most of the time, because of all the technology.
Aliens can not just move in 1 second from one end of the map to another or secure a hive in like 5 seconds, marines can.
Also heavy armor and dual miniguns will come, i think the most people are just marine player (explain why marines are like in every game is full).
I mean i play both and of course if aliens got a second hive, its very hard for marines, but here is a hint "don't allow aliens get a second hive, attack it at all cost"...simple solution.
But nerfing aliens is just...pointless.
Aliens got nothing without a second hive, they have to expand, and marines have to stop them doing it.
While that, marines research powefull technology while aliens try to get a second hive, if they fail, aliens have lost and marines win very quick.
thats the game right now.
There is no excuse for not having shotguns well before Fades are around, and with some decent aim (yes it might be hard if the server tickrates are low), Fades can be swiftly dispatched with 2 well placed shots. Considering the new Fade blink momentum change as well as the delay between exiting blink and being able to swipe, it is very possible to pump those two shotgun rounds into the Fade before it can retreat, and even if you don't manage to kill the Fade, the increased blink cost recently introduced also allows you the opportunity to pump a few finishing rounds into a retreating Fade. Blink costs so much energy, (10 to enter, and 50 per second added immediately), unless the Fade pops in only to immediately retreat, there are going to be the moments when the Fade needs to regenerate energy, either mid combat or in retreat that it won't be in blink. You'd be amazed how many instances I have managed to finish off a Fade retreating for either health or energy reasons, both of which render the fade crucially vulnerable. In reality, Fades really do have little actual health; its dealing your damage in the windows of opportunity that count, and predicting their movement takes practice.
Also I have to also say the Stab is HORRIBLE. It used to be quite effective in combat, but now that its range is a meager faction of what it was before, its no viable justification for the 1.5 second delay before when you are completely immobilized, and when you actually deal any damage, and that is more than enough time, (166% of required time not even considering the delay between when the Fade exits blink, which it usually does before commencing an attack, and it can even activate stab) for a marine to pump two shotgun rounds into you, since you'd have to be pretty close to be able to do any damage anyway, which marines can easily dodge. I'm surprised the devs haven't removed the ability yet, or at least made if viable for anything other than ambushes or for humiliation kills, Swipe is simply so much more efficient and still quite deadly.
It really does sadden me how much Fades have had to be gimped during the course of the development cycle of NS2, they have less armor than a Gorge and can't spend more than 1 second in blink at a time, i can only imagine the misery it will be once Exosuits become involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post without any ######'!!!! Completely agree. I'm usless playing the fade and against medium level marines, I quickly die. As a marine, I can narna them on a regular basis. They install the fear of god in me in game and I love it!
New players will always have trouble initially with them but isn't it nice to have a game with a learning curve instead of owning everything the second you start to play?
And these people scream the loudest, thats the problem.
They join a server, marines, and get killed by a fade.
ARGH ALIENS ARE TO STRONG!!!!, they have to be nerfed!!!!
If i play marine, i have to play in team and should do everything to support my team and prevent aliens getting a second hive.
Not just place everywhere around the armory mines (genius...).
Also most of the marines run alone through the map...which is most of the time instantdeath.
Seriously, i guess some people confuse NS2 with counter-strike.
People forget, its a beta and some of the marine technology is comming soon.
Like heavy armor or miniguns.
They join a server, marines, and get killed by a fade.
ARGH ALIENS ARE TO STRONG!!!!, they have to be nerfed!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come now :p we were all nublets once. I think there are alot of intuitions and ways of thinking in NS2 us vets take for granted but are actually surprisingly jarring for first time players.
in clan scrims aliens seem to always win though. this has little to do with the fade. by the time the aliens get a fade the game is pretty much set-in-stone already. there are other issues. exos will fix this.
stop blaming ur ###### on the fade. a fade costs 50 res and a second hive. by then you should have several people with shotties, and maybe even weapons and/or armor 1 already.
Not with looking at the win/loss numbers, because mineshaft favors aliens right now.
And not with the hit reg latency right now. If the hit registration wouldn't have such a great delay, a fade would be way easier to hit and kill. But now with this fast movement and blink, it exploits the slow hit reg even further. Right now you have to aim 1m ahead of the alien. If the alien blinks around its nearly impossible to predict, where to aim.
So what I want to say: It's not a problem with the fade.
Still, frenzy being removed might help alot.
No more 3 upgrades at 2nd hive
80 Armor instead of 100 (w/ cara)
Can be killed while fading
Use more energy while fading
I don't think they need a nerf. They cost 50 res which takes forever to get assuming you have ~3 extractors as alien. Once a fade dies it is a big loss for the alien team at a minimal cost for marines.
Honestly it is pretty simple to counter fades:
- Run in small groups
- Get 1 Flamethrower and Shotgunners
- optionally LV2 armor and LV2 weapons
- eventually jetpacks (though I only see them very late game, should be cheaper to get IMHO 75 TRes is quite a lot :p)
- once they are hurt, chase them down. Seriously, don't let them get away and ###### kill them or they WILL come back - with full hp again
That being said, it is also possible to solo fades as decent shotgunner :P
Me, blink up, use stab, strafe fly to an enemy kill on landing--> repeat.
Especially good for Armor 2 marines, and to be honest as soon as a2 is out I only use stab as Fade because it's 1 hitkill, faster than 3 swipes, regens half it energy till its finished, 1 fade can block a pg alone with stab, 1 fade can spawncamp 2 ips with stab and it's easier to kill pros (because the cyrcle strafe).