Here's how I see things going in an equally matched game with about 7 players each side.
1-3 minutes: marines and aliens run around taking what they want. Some fights arise and its pretty equal. At least one person goes gorge to provide building backup for the commander. 3-5 minutes: 2 alien players go Lerk to gain an advantage over the marines. This advantage is required because marines will now be using their advantage when it comes to keeping territory to spread further into alien controlled areas. 6-7 minutes: The hive is dropped in a location not immediately possessed by the marines, but at this stage the commander should know exactly where it is going to be, and be scanning it regularly. In order to protect the hive, 2 players must go fade. Without the fades the marines will push the hive and take it. Alternatively some players could gorge and heavily hydra the area.
So by this point, you have had 1 commander, 1 gorge, 2 Lerks and 2 fades. That is 6 players out of 7, leaving only one person to go onos. This is the principle behind why mass Onos should not be a problem. When the enemy team DOES mass onos, it can seem unfair, but it is purely due to the marine's non offensive strategy. I don't like it, but it seems that at the moment the marines have to go full offensive in all situations. Trying to rapid tech and beat the aliens that way is liable to get you a bunch of oni in your base.
Just experienced the same thing, we controlled the whole map as marines until the 8-10 minute mark, then suddenly 3 Onos popup and we lose the game in the following 2 minutes. This probably won't be as big of a problem once the mechs are in, but having 1 hive onos right now is retarded.
<!--quoteo(post=1917811:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:52 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Mar 25 2012, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just experienced the same thing, we controlled the whole map as marines until the 8-10 minute mark, then suddenly 3 Onos popup and we lose the game in the following 2 minutes. This probably won't be as big of a problem once the mechs are in, but having 1 hive onos right now is retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this is that it puts the marines in a really sticky situation. Should you start teching toward exosuits just because you haven't seen too many lifeforms yet (indicating they may be saving for onos)? In a game where lerks/gorges are actually good, the aliens can respond to that by evolving those lifeforms and attacking you to punish the (possibly) unnecessary investment. Of course, scouting is a skill players should develop, and you can scout what lifeforms are in use but....it just seems a bit too volatile.
<!--quoteo(post=1917810:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:50 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 25 2012, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's how I see things going in an equally matched game with about 7 players each side.
1-3 minutes: marines and aliens run around taking what they want. Some fights arise and its pretty equal. At least one person goes gorge to provide building backup for the commander. 3-5 minutes: 2 alien players go Lerk to gain an advantage over the marines. This advantage is required because marines will now be using their advantage when it comes to keeping territory to spread further into alien controlled areas. 6-7 minutes: The hive is dropped in a location not immediately possessed by the marines, but at this stage the commander should know exactly where it is going to be, and be scanning it regularly. In order to protect the hive, 2 players must go fade. Without the fades the marines will push the hive and take it. Alternatively some players could gorge and heavily hydra the area.
So by this point, you have had 1 commander, 1 gorge, 2 Lerks and 2 fades. That is 6 players out of 7, leaving only one person to go onos. This is the principle behind why mass Onos should not be a problem. When the enemy team DOES mass onos, it can seem unfair, but it is purely due to the marine's non offensive strategy. I don't like it, but it seems that at the moment the marines have to go full offensive in all situations. Trying to rapid tech and beat the aliens that way is liable to get you a bunch of oni in your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or..
You have 0-1 aliens go lerk, 0-1 go fade, 3 save onos. Even if marines push and take hive 2, aliens still have 3 onos and win the game.
I'm glad to see the back of another unnecessary and oppressive rule that damaged variety and which was a gimmicky answer to balancing technology scaling.
I imagine the onos will be tweaked accordingly of course and I hope we see it as rarely as we did in NS1 (or if not; that the onos is appropriately less powerful).
You have 0-1 aliens go lerk, 0-1 go fade, 3 save onos. Even if marines push and take hive 2, aliens still have 3 onos and win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, maybe second hives aren't even needed at the moment. I will say though that people do much overestimate the one hive Onos. Not so much because of abilities, but because of upgrades. An Onos with a shade hive is totally screwed. An onos with a crag hive can choose between regen and carapace, but both are very vital for an onos to do its job properly.
<!--quoteo(post=1917833:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:21 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 25 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True enough, maybe second hives aren't even needed at the moment. I will say though that people do much overestimate the one hive Onos. Not so much because of abilities, but because of upgrades. An Onos with a shade hive is totally screwed. An onos with a crag hive can choose between regen and carapace, but both are very vital for an onos to do its job properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One hive carapace onos is 95% as effective as three hive onos.
Guys I think you're forgetting that this is a beta. There are going to be ups and downs. Sometimes a patch comes out where nobody wants to play the game because they changed a bunch of stuff and clearly didn't test it at all. That's cool right? We're part of the process!
Both games I've played since 201 went live have had this problem. Marines had weapons/armor one and shotguns when we suddenly had to fend off three onos and a fade. Before that we saw skulks and the occasional lerk. We even controlled half the map, but like Xarius said, the aliens had 3-4 nodes to themselves.
The onos gore is so powerful right now that it's not funny. In NS1 I could tangle with an onos and jump/crouch/strafe my way to victory with a shotgun. If I got hit once it hurt, but I could still fight. But now if you get hit once, it's instant game over unless the onos player has ADD and forgets to finish you off. Add a second or third onos and half the marine team will be knocked flat on its ass in a matter of seconds.
I also agree that part of the problem is no one wants to bother going lerk or gorge. I'm just not a good lerk player yet, so I don't spend much time as that class. Gorge is no fun at all anymore. That pretty much puts me in the same boat to roflstomp in an onos wave.
The other issue is onos are so fast now. This is NOT a bad thing - I like how they gain momentum. They are usually able to get away alive unless 3-4 marines chase them really far. I think this would be fine if there were only 1-2 onos to begin with, but not when there's half a team.
<!--quoteo(post=1917852:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Mar 25 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other issue is onos are so fast now. This is NOT a bad thing - I like how they gain momentum. They are usually able to get away alive unless 3-4 marines chase them really far. I think this would be fine if there were only 1-2 onos to begin with, but not when there's half a team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's another onos mechanic that could be tied to higher hive count (like I think charge was in NS1?)
Would be interesting if you could have only one onos at 1 hive, 2 at 2 and 3 at 3 (or unlimited), actually. Anyway, there's many ways to go about solving this, though I''m not sure just requiring 2 hives for onos would really solve this issue since it's fairly simple to get a second hive with aliens on most maps, more so with catalyze. (And 2 hives would then be pretty much GG similarly to how it was with fades before)
It also doesn't help that the gorge is such an undesirable class to play at the moment, that's another player or two who have resources to waste on going onos. (Since the team doesn't need gorges in their current state, they add very little with alien defenses being so laughable and the comm doing everything else) 1 Lerk can be an interesting addition, but at 1 hive he will hardly ever have a lasting impact, same with the fade (without blink).
<!--quoteo(post=1917860:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 25 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would be interesting if you could have only one onos at 1 hive, 2 at 2 and 3 at 3 (or unlimited), actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I would not want to see this solution. IMO a team going 100% onos should have some sort of blaring weakness or penalty that another life form would make up. There needs to be incentive to go each class, but right now EVERYTHING points to going onos. Best HP, best attacks, really good speed, unlimited knockdowns, disables buildings, etc etc
Its only weakness is that it's easy to hit. That needs to change.
These arbitrary hard cap solutions everyone is suggesting is bad response to the problem. A much better response is to address the opportunity cost of going onos. Come on ScardyBob, you can do better!
That comes totally out of the blue and screams band aid whereas the aliens don't have all abilities at hive 1/2 is consistent with already established game design.
<!--quoteo(post=1917875:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:19 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Mar 25 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These arbitrary hard cap solutions everyone is suggesting is bad response to the problem. A much better response is to address the opportunity cost of going onos. Come on ScardyBob, you can do better!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, it's exactly how things worked in NS1. NS1 is where 'lifeforms not tied to hives' came from, but they didn't bring along the supporting mechanics to make it work.
<!--quoteo(post=1917875:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:19 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Mar 25 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These arbitrary hard cap solutions everyone is suggesting is bad response to the problem. A much better response is to address the opportunity cost of going onos. Come on ScardyBob, you can do better!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The opportunity cost of going onos isn't the problem. The benefit of going onos is. Onos is simply too good before 15 or 20 minutes into the game.
Onos = 75 pres, 0 tres
That 0tres is the problem. 75 pres for 2-3 players out of 6-8 is meaningless.
<!--quoteo(post=1917871:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:16 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 25 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see it like this: 1 Hive = Fade, shadowstep only; No onos 2 Hive = Fade, full; Onos, gorge only/half armor 3 Hive = Fade, full; Onos, full<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be good. I'd also like to see Onos not get the anti-building attack until Hive 3. And, if possible, his anti-infantry attack not have a knockdown component until hive 3. Hive 2 is still pretty easy to get up and an onos with that much crowd control power, even with half hp, is still game breaking that early.
Even a hive 2 requirement on onos would still allow multiple onos to be out ~7 or 8 minutes. I'm not sure half hp/armor is a big enough deterrent to premature onos.
dunno if it's been suggested yet but, what if the alien commander has to research the stronger lifeforms ie. fade and onos? I'm not a fan of both hive 1 and 3 onos myself. it's pretty much gg at 3 anyway, and 1 is too powerful.
<!--quoteo(post=1917934:date=Mar 25 2012, 10:51 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Mar 25 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dunno if it's been suggested yet but, what if the alien commander has to research the stronger lifeforms ie. fade and onos? I'm not a fan of both hive 1 and 3 onos myself. it's pretty much gg at 3 anyway, and 1 is too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of costs would we be looking at here?
100 tres means you can still get onos in ~7-8 minutes.
The current situation should not come as a surprise to anyone. Unchained lifeforms worked well in NS1 largely because the early-game Onos teams we're seeing now were flatly impossible under NS1's alien resource model. If the Onos has NS1-esque availability without NS1-esque consequences, it can only be balanced by weakening it to the point where it will cease to be useful once late-game marine tech (the most powerful of which isn't even implemented yet) is on the field. If its availability is the problem, its availability is what ought to change.
At risk of being a nuisance, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117102" target="_blank">I believe I have the answer.</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1917944:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:13 PM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Mar 25 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current situation should not come as a surprise to anyone. Unchained lifeforms worked well in NS1 largely because the early-game Onos teams we're seeing now were flatly impossible under NS1's alien resource model. If the Onos has NS1-esque availability without NS1-esque consequences, it can only be balanced by weakening it to the point where it will cease to be useful once late-game marine tech (the most powerful of which isn't even implemented yet) is on the field. If its availability is the problem, its availability is what ought to change.
At risk of being a nuisance, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117102" target="_blank">I believe I have the answer.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A neat idea but the costs are still far too low. They're about 1/2 of what they should be.
A 2nd hive costs 75 tres. You're putting onos research at 60 tres. That's less cost than a 2nd hive and so much easier than taking a second tech point. And 2 hive onos is just as imbalanced as 1 hive onos.
If the tres cost of an onos hive were ~120, this would add a lot more consequence to rushing onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1917944:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:13 PM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Mar 25 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current situation should not come as a surprise to anyone. Unchained lifeforms worked well in NS1 largely because the early-game Onos teams we're seeing now were flatly impossible under NS1's alien resource model. If the Onos has NS1-esque availability without NS1-esque consequences, it can only be balanced by weakening it to the point where it will cease to be useful once late-game marine tech (the most powerful of which isn't even implemented yet) is on the field. If its availability is the problem, its availability is what ought to change.
At risk of being a nuisance, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117102" target="_blank">I believe I have the answer.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos teams aren't just brutal early game, they're impossible to stop with all tech and research. 2 silence upgrade/shade cloaked onos can run into your base with 1 hive and demolish your cc before the beacon even goes off.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I'm not sure how many times people have said this, but the game is in *BETA* - You should expect big changes from patch to patch which will greatly change balance. If changes like these make you rage or get frustrated, then maybe beta testing the game is not for you.
I applaud UWE for trying out drastic changes to the game so they can get an idea of what works and what doesn't. People need to realize that 1 patch is not going to just magically fix balance and that it is a long process which will take a lot of iteration to get to a point at which you can call it balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1917777:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:52 PM:name=adrain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (adrain @ Mar 25 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hope this will get fixed soon. The way it is it doesn't makes sense to go for more than 2 hives. Even 1 hive is enough as long as you get enough res nodes ... Yes, res nodes are the new hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason for this change in particular was to remove some of the importance of the 2nd hive in deciding a games outcome and make res node and resources more important, however as you pointed out, the change was a little too much and now we need to see why everyone saves for onos and make the other classes equal alternatives all the while keeping some importance on the 2nd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1917840:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:31 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys I think you're forgetting that this is a beta. There are going to be ups and downs. Sometimes a patch comes out where nobody wants to play the game because they changed a bunch of stuff and clearly didn't test it at all. That's cool right? We're part of the process!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to be a little too emotionally vested in the game - Beta testing doesn't appear to something you look forward to.
<!--quoteo(post=1917893:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:53 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, it's exactly how things worked in NS1. NS1 is where 'lifeforms not tied to hives' came from, but they didn't bring along the supporting mechanics to make it work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you explain what "supporting mechanics" you are talking about?
TBH i think early onos is easy to balance, remove knockdown on gore, make stomp hive 2, make smash hive 3. Make gore take less energy to use and maybe adjust the onos hide a little? TBH im not sure exactly how the onos hide/armor works. The onos would be good at killing marines but not the amazing building destroyer it is currently.
Alternatively wasnt the onos supposed to have a shield ability? Maybe gore/stomp could be hive 1, bone shield as hive 2, and smash hive 3? Then the hide could be removed completely so that he is somewhat more vulnerable early game.
Also increasing his pres cost to 90 would make it take longer for the aliens to get that, and extends the duration between fades an onos more.
My 2c is that he is probably a little cheap at 75, and that the main problem with him at 1 hive is his building killing and not marine killing.
Especially in competitive play, any team that sacrifices a Hive Gorge, mid-early Lerk or mid game Fade will do well to get to the 1 hive Onos if he is perhaps slightly more expensive.
The thing is, its marine killing facilitates structure killing even without any special abilities for it.
By all means remove the knockdown from Gore (I've never liked that mechanic anyway), make Stomp a hive 2 ability (isn't it already, in b201?) that doesn't work on jetpackers, and move Smash to hive 2 or 3; but even then a wave of early one-hive Onoses will still be a game-breaker. Why? Because their raw survivability trumps the marines' damage output at that point. If a squad of one-hive Carapace or Celerity Onoses with a Gorge healer or two but no stun abilities charges headlong at a slightly larger squad of 1/2 marines with a mix of LMGs and shotguns, they might lose one, maybe two if they're unlucky or the teams are large, but then the rest will just clean them out and camp the IPs.
If going Onos as soon as possible does not in any way detract from the team's tech growth, the only real option is to delay "as soon as possible" until the marines have a chance to fight back, be it through chaining or any other mechanism. Nothing else will work.
<!--quoteo(post=1917940:date=Mar 25 2012, 11:05 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What kind of costs would we be looking at here?
100 tres means you can still get onos in ~7-8 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
having fade be a prerequisite would make it take longer. or adv. lifeforms > fade > onos. i wouldn't think a flat 100 res or such would be a good/fun balancing act for the commander to save up on, so having it divided in smaller chunks is more manageable.
Comments
1-3 minutes: marines and aliens run around taking what they want. Some fights arise and its pretty equal. At least one person goes gorge to provide building backup for the commander.
3-5 minutes: 2 alien players go Lerk to gain an advantage over the marines. This advantage is required because marines will now be using their advantage when it comes to keeping territory to spread further into alien controlled areas.
6-7 minutes: The hive is dropped in a location not immediately possessed by the marines, but at this stage the commander should know exactly where it is going to be, and be scanning it regularly. In order to protect the hive, 2 players must go fade. Without the fades the marines will push the hive and take it. Alternatively some players could gorge and heavily hydra the area.
So by this point, you have had 1 commander, 1 gorge, 2 Lerks and 2 fades. That is 6 players out of 7, leaving only one person to go onos. This is the principle behind why mass Onos should not be a problem. When the enemy team DOES mass onos, it can seem unfair, but it is purely due to the marine's non offensive strategy. I don't like it, but it seems that at the moment the marines have to go full offensive in all situations. Trying to rapid tech and beat the aliens that way is liable to get you a bunch of oni in your base.
The problem with this is that it puts the marines in a really sticky situation. Should you start teching toward exosuits just because you haven't seen too many lifeforms yet (indicating they may be saving for onos)? In a game where lerks/gorges are actually good, the aliens can respond to that by evolving those lifeforms and attacking you to punish the (possibly) unnecessary investment. Of course, scouting is a skill players should develop, and you can scout what lifeforms are in use but....it just seems a bit too volatile.
1-3 minutes: marines and aliens run around taking what they want. Some fights arise and its pretty equal. At least one person goes gorge to provide building backup for the commander.
3-5 minutes: 2 alien players go Lerk to gain an advantage over the marines. This advantage is required because marines will now be using their advantage when it comes to keeping territory to spread further into alien controlled areas.
6-7 minutes: The hive is dropped in a location not immediately possessed by the marines, but at this stage the commander should know exactly where it is going to be, and be scanning it regularly. In order to protect the hive, 2 players must go fade. Without the fades the marines will push the hive and take it. Alternatively some players could gorge and heavily hydra the area.
So by this point, you have had 1 commander, 1 gorge, 2 Lerks and 2 fades. That is 6 players out of 7, leaving only one person to go onos. This is the principle behind why mass Onos should not be a problem. When the enemy team DOES mass onos, it can seem unfair, but it is purely due to the marine's non offensive strategy. I don't like it, but it seems that at the moment the marines have to go full offensive in all situations. Trying to rapid tech and beat the aliens that way is liable to get you a bunch of oni in your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or..
You have 0-1 aliens go lerk, 0-1 go fade, 3 save onos. Even if marines push and take hive 2, aliens still have 3 onos and win the game.
I imagine the onos will be tweaked accordingly of course and I hope we see it as rarely as we did in NS1 (or if not; that the onos is appropriately less powerful).
You have 0-1 aliens go lerk, 0-1 go fade, 3 save onos. Even if marines push and take hive 2, aliens still have 3 onos and win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough, maybe second hives aren't even needed at the moment. I will say though that people do much overestimate the one hive Onos. Not so much because of abilities, but because of upgrades. An Onos with a shade hive is totally screwed. An onos with a crag hive can choose between regen and carapace, but both are very vital for an onos to do its job properly.
One hive carapace onos is 95% as effective as three hive onos.
The onos gore is so powerful right now that it's not funny. In NS1 I could tangle with an onos and jump/crouch/strafe my way to victory with a shotgun. If I got hit once it hurt, but I could still fight. But now if you get hit once, it's instant game over unless the onos player has ADD and forgets to finish you off.
Add a second or third onos and half the marine team will be knocked flat on its ass in a matter of seconds.
I also agree that part of the problem is no one wants to bother going lerk or gorge. I'm just not a good lerk player yet, so I don't spend much time as that class. Gorge is no fun at all anymore. That pretty much puts me in the same boat to roflstomp in an onos wave.
The other issue is onos are so fast now. This is NOT a bad thing - I like how they gain momentum. They are usually able to get away alive unless 3-4 marines chase them really far. I think this would be fine if there were only 1-2 onos to begin with, but not when there's half a team.
there's another onos mechanic that could be tied to higher hive count (like I think charge was in NS1?)
Anyway, there's many ways to go about solving this, though I''m not sure just requiring 2 hives for onos would really solve this issue since it's fairly simple to get a second hive with aliens on most maps, more so with catalyze. (And 2 hives would then be pretty much GG similarly to how it was with fades before)
It also doesn't help that the gorge is such an undesirable class to play at the moment, that's another player or two who have resources to waste on going onos. (Since the team doesn't need gorges in their current state, they add very little with alien defenses being so laughable and the comm doing everything else) 1 Lerk can be an interesting addition, but at 1 hive he will hardly ever have a lasting impact, same with the fade (without blink).
Honestly, I would not want to see this solution. IMO a team going 100% onos should have some sort of blaring weakness or penalty that another life form would make up. There needs to be incentive to go each class, but right now EVERYTHING points to going onos. Best HP, best attacks, really good speed, unlimited knockdowns, disables buildings, etc etc
Its only weakness is that it's easy to hit. That needs to change.
1 Hive = Fade, shadowstep only; No onos
2 Hive = Fade, full; Onos, gorge only/half armor
3 Hive = Fade, full; Onos, full
On the other hand, it's exactly how things worked in NS1. NS1 is where 'lifeforms not tied to hives' came from, but they didn't bring along the supporting mechanics to make it work.
The opportunity cost of going onos isn't the problem. The benefit of going onos is. Onos is simply too good before 15 or 20 minutes into the game.
Onos = 75 pres, 0 tres
That 0tres is the problem. 75 pres for 2-3 players out of 6-8 is meaningless.
<!--quoteo(post=1917871:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:16 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 25 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see it like this:
1 Hive = Fade, shadowstep only; No onos
2 Hive = Fade, full; Onos, gorge only/half armor
3 Hive = Fade, full; Onos, full<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be good. I'd also like to see Onos not get the anti-building attack until Hive 3. And, if possible, his anti-infantry attack not have a knockdown component until hive 3. Hive 2 is still pretty easy to get up and an onos with that much crowd control power, even with half hp, is still game breaking that early.
Even a hive 2 requirement on onos would still allow multiple onos to be out ~7 or 8 minutes. I'm not sure half hp/armor is a big enough deterrent to premature onos.
What kind of costs would we be looking at here?
100 tres means you can still get onos in ~7-8 minutes.
At risk of being a nuisance, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117102" target="_blank">I believe I have the answer.</a>
At risk of being a nuisance, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117102" target="_blank">I believe I have the answer.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A neat idea but the costs are still far too low. They're about 1/2 of what they should be.
A 2nd hive costs 75 tres. You're putting onos research at 60 tres. That's less cost than a 2nd hive and so much easier than taking a second tech point. And 2 hive onos is just as imbalanced as 1 hive onos.
If the tres cost of an onos hive were ~120, this would add a lot more consequence to rushing onos.
At risk of being a nuisance, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117102" target="_blank">I believe I have the answer.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos teams aren't just brutal early game, they're impossible to stop with all tech and research. 2 silence upgrade/shade cloaked onos can run into your base with 1 hive and demolish your cc before the beacon even goes off.
I applaud UWE for trying out drastic changes to the game so they can get an idea of what works and what doesn't. People need to realize that 1 patch is not going to just magically fix balance and that it is a long process which will take a lot of iteration to get to a point at which you can call it balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1917777:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:52 PM:name=adrain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (adrain @ Mar 25 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hope this will get fixed soon. The way it is it doesn't makes sense to go for more than 2 hives. Even 1 hive is enough as long as you get enough res nodes ... Yes, res nodes are the new hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason for this change in particular was to remove some of the importance of the 2nd hive in deciding a games outcome and make res node and resources more important, however as you pointed out, the change was a little too much and now we need to see why everyone saves for onos and make the other classes equal alternatives all the while keeping some importance on the 2nd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1917840:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:31 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys I think you're forgetting that this is a beta. There are going to be ups and downs. Sometimes a patch comes out where nobody wants to play the game because they changed a bunch of stuff and clearly didn't test it at all. That's cool right? We're part of the process!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to be a little too emotionally vested in the game - Beta testing doesn't appear to something you look forward to.
<!--quoteo(post=1917893:date=Mar 25 2012, 07:53 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, it's exactly how things worked in NS1. NS1 is where 'lifeforms not tied to hives' came from, but they didn't bring along the supporting mechanics to make it work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you explain what "supporting mechanics" you are talking about?
Alternatively wasnt the onos supposed to have a shield ability? Maybe gore/stomp could be hive 1, bone shield as hive 2, and smash hive 3? Then the hide could be removed completely so that he is somewhat more vulnerable early game.
Also increasing his pres cost to 90 would make it take longer for the aliens to get that, and extends the duration between fades an onos more.
Especially in competitive play, any team that sacrifices a Hive Gorge, mid-early Lerk or mid game Fade will do well to get to the 1 hive Onos if he is perhaps slightly more expensive.
By all means remove the knockdown from Gore (I've never liked that mechanic anyway), make Stomp a hive 2 ability (isn't it already, in b201?) that doesn't work on jetpackers, and move Smash to hive 2 or 3; but even then a wave of early one-hive Onoses will still be a game-breaker. Why? Because their raw survivability trumps the marines' damage output at that point. If a squad of one-hive Carapace or Celerity Onoses with a Gorge healer or two but no stun abilities charges headlong at a slightly larger squad of 1/2 marines with a mix of LMGs and shotguns, they might lose one, maybe two if they're unlucky or the teams are large, but then the rest will just clean them out and camp the IPs.
If going Onos as soon as possible does not in any way detract from the team's tech growth, the only real option is to delay "as soon as possible" until the marines have a chance to fight back, be it through chaining or any other mechanism. Nothing else will work.
100 tres means you can still get onos in ~7-8 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
having fade be a prerequisite would make it take longer. or adv. lifeforms > fade > onos. i wouldn't think a flat 100 res or such would be a good/fun balancing act for the commander to save up on, so having it divided in smaller chunks is more manageable.
remove stun from gore
perhaps lower the health/armor of a hive 1 onos.
Then we can test again and readapt if needed.