Marine Structure Blocking Entrances
Wakatu
Join Date: 2012-04-10 Member: 150222Members
Join Date: 2012-04-10 Member: 150222Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Blocking Onoses from escaping.</div>Ok, so something that's been going on for quite awhile and more frequently are marine commanders blocking the door ways when an onos is in base trying to escape. Now some people say it's a legitimate tactic and some others say it's really a cheap way and not a legitimate tactic to use. Personally, I abhor it when it's done to me or to others.
But there was a simple fix in NS1 for that problem. When the building was dropped it only became solid if a marine touched it, so if an alien touched an unbuilt structure it destroys it instantly solving the blocking lifeforms. Also the majority of NS1 servers back then banned any commander that did that.
I'm curious what the community thinks, is it ok to block an onos's escape with an armory in the doorway while the marines cheaply kill it? Or should there be a new systems placed like in NS1?
But there was a simple fix in NS1 for that problem. When the building was dropped it only became solid if a marine touched it, so if an alien touched an unbuilt structure it destroys it instantly solving the blocking lifeforms. Also the majority of NS1 servers back then banned any commander that did that.
I'm curious what the community thinks, is it ok to block an onos's escape with an armory in the doorway while the marines cheaply kill it? Or should there be a new systems placed like in NS1?
Comments
Jesus Christ.. I can't believe how many people are saying it's a valid tactic. It's clearly an exploit. I don't remember ever seeing a competitive match or tournament in ns1 that allowed that. I've never seen it done in any friendly scrim or pug either. I hope that it doesn't suddenly become a legitimate play now. There is no way that the ns1 developers intend it to be used as a tactic, considering how frowned upon it was in the original.
I don't really like the idea of ghosting buildings as a solution however. Servers should just have their own rules regarding this and moderate it accordingly. Allow players to do it, but have them be kicked or banned for multiple offenses if they do it on the wrong server where it is against the rules. For competitive play, it should always be against the rules though.
I don't really like the idea of ghosting buildings as a solution however. Servers should just have their own rules regarding this and moderate it accordingly. Allow players to do it, but have them be kicked or banned for multiple offenses if they do it on the wrong server where it is against the rules. For competitive play, it should always be against the rules though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cyst spam, mine spam, turret spam, crag spam, whip spam...
All of it illegitimate, as well? And who cares what it was like in NS1? NS1 was only hardcore players, anyway. Does UWE really want such a small community/playerbase for NS2?
Recently I almost got killed as an Onos when I left the Server Room, but the Marine commander could only drop one armory at the exit, and forgot to drop a robotics. I felt very lucky and did not attack the Server Room again.
I am not a big fan of structure-blocking, but why the ### wouldn't it be legitimate? Sure, destroy every creativity that people have with the game.
It is also introducing a completely un-designed element to the game which alters the very nature and balance of the melee vs. ranged relationship.
I do like the creative use of game mechanics but imo it is broken and always will be in NS.
All of it illegitimate, as well? And who cares what it was like in NS1? NS1 was only hardcore players, anyway. Does UWE really want such a small community/playerbase for NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf are you on about, tons of people played ns1, way more than are currently playing ns2. It wasn't just for "hardcore" players either. Just because it has some strategy to it doesn't mean it is out of reach to casual players as well. Does that make star craft only for hardcore players as well? what about C&C?
using building to block higher lifeforms is pretty lame imo. The ghost structure in ns1 worked no reason why it wouldn't work in ns2 as well. When a 75 res lifeform is killed by a 10 res structure... something is a miss.
using building to block higher lifeforms is pretty lame imo. The ghost structure in ns1 worked no reason why it wouldn't work in ns2 as well. When a 75 res lifeform is killed by a 10 res structure... something is a miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, a lot of people seem to forget that NS1 has been out for like 9 years. It had an absolute tonne of players for the first... 3 or 4 years? That is a very very long time.
Ghost structures aren't the 100% solution because you can still use buildings to unfairly fortify siege positions. I remember a top NA clan (I want to say Xensity) making amusing videos of dropping two comm chairs on either side of doorways with just enough space for marines and small alien lifeforms to get through in siege situations and killing a tonne of fades because it completely screws up bottleneck melee dynamics.
All of it illegitimate, as well? And who cares what it was like in NS1? NS1 was only hardcore players, anyway. Does UWE really want such a small community/playerbase for NS2?
Recently I almost got killed as an Onos when I left the Server Room, but the Marine commander could only drop one armory at the exit, and forgot to drop a robotics. I felt very lucky and did not attack the Server Room again.
I am not a big fan of structure-blocking, but why the ### wouldn't it be legitimate? Sure, destroy every creativity that people have with the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not all that creative... unless you wanna call being an arsehole creative, then fine. I guess all armory blockers are Leonardo Da Vinci
All of those tactics you mentioned are legitimate as they're not taking advantage of a mechanic in a way that was not intended - whereas structure blocking is, and therefore is quite obviously an exploit.
Recently I was playing a small 2v4 game (2 aliens, 4 marines). It was already pretty one-sided, and the marines were turret farming to keep it that way (which would haven been easy enough to counter if teams were balanced). I finally got enough res to go fade and went to their base to try take down their power node (the only thing I could do at that point to try win the game). Unfortunately they had blocked the power node with a robotics factory (also very cheap) and as a result was not able to take it down, though might have come close if they hadn't resorted to such tactics. The marines were not able to kill me as fade even though we had one hive and they were fully upgraded. Eventually the commander boxed me into a corner with a wall of armorys and i was unable to get out (since I couldn't blink). I couldn't even swipe my way free as he was repairing the armories with MACs. Eventually he sent a single marine to kill me and there was absolutely nothing I could do. This is the type of scenario we're allowing by letting people structure block.
This type of tactic is not what the developers had in mind as it can be impossible to counter and requires no skill to take down somebody who otherwise knows what he/she's doing. Turret farming etc may be viewed as cheap, but can be countered easily by a well coordinated team that knows how to play.
As for your point about competitive/public play, I don't understand why not allowing exploits is going to reduce the number of players playing ns2?
Trying to block a fade can be fun also, you need planning (you need to get the fade inside a room that can be blocked easily) and teamwork (you need several marines and the commander to work together). A smart fade can avoid it by not falling into the trap, i.e. staying in a area where there is several escape routes.
That's why I think some sort of structure blocking should be kept. However it should be a rare event and not the standard tactic to fight a lifeform, so it shouldn't be too cost efficient. One can adjust the initial life points of buildings (zero would be the ghost building what get destroyed as soon as you touch it) to get the desired efficiency.
I think blocking an onos with structures fully sucks, in saying that i would never do it and if i was on a team where there commander blocked an onos i was chasing, i would stop shooting.
Pretty much this.
There are just so many issues with the way aliens have to commit to hit and run all the time and marines being able to shut down by slamming down an obstacle out from nowhere. It just doesn't go far in dynamics and meanwhile it very effectively prevents aliens from engaging in many situations.
See how in NS1 elevators and doors turned into marine dominant chokepoints. Now you don't even need to have the guy in position to operate the elevator, so there's even less the aliens can do to prevent blocking. Denying alien hit and run retreats has to be something aliens can prevent and fight back (ie killing the marine trying to block the escape).
<!--quoteo(post=1924093:date=Apr 11 2012, 10:58 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 11 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ghost structures aren't the 100% solution because you can still use buildings to unfairly fortify siege positions. I remember a top NA clan (I want to say Xensity) making amusing videos of dropping two comm chairs on either side of doorways with just enough space for marines and small alien lifeforms to get through in siege situations and killing a tonne of fades because it completely screws up bottleneck melee dynamics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also emphasis on this. Now onoses are also a big part of the alien play, which puts even more twists to structure wall abuse.
<!--quoteo(post=1924118:date=Apr 11 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Wolpertinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wolpertinger @ Apr 11 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many god damn times do you see this? I have only seen in it 3-5 times in 300 hours of play...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is one of the things that you don't really have to see to know it's going to happen. As commanders get more comfortable in doing more than the APM 30 routine, you're going to see a lot more of these things. The earlier these get solved (one way or the other), the less rework and readjustment there will be.
It doesn't sound like a valid tactic to me, in fact, it detracts from the fun of the game.
Ok, now imagine you could block enemy minerals with a pylon without having a probe in the area or you could block a path by landing a building...that hadn't been built.
A rule of thumb is that if it can be abused, it will be abused.
For some of us there aren't any alternatives for servers. Usually there's only 1 server with people in it in aus/nz. So changing server isn't an option.
Structure-blocking was already heavily frowned-upon in ns1. It was against the rules in most public servers and always in competitive play. If anything, allowing it now would be "changing the game", as although I've seen it happen before, I've never ever seen it been argued as a "legitimate" thing to do, and not an exploit, until now.
Why can't we try and change the game anyway? Isn't one of the points of this forum to provide feedback on what works and what doesn't? Structure blocking doesn't work, and all it is is a cheap way to kill an onos and gain an advantage that you otherwise would not have had - end of story. If you can't win the game without doing it you don't deserve to win the game
- It's a valid tactic at the cost of TRES (armories, unless built, will not sell for full res)
<b>- Can easily countered by putting cysts all way to the marine base, since marines can't drop buildings on infestation</b>
- Armories don't drop at full health and go down quite easily
If the problem is that you can't take down a marine base, that is not a problem with structures blocking entraces more because aliens don't have effective means to destroy buildings end game, but that was pointed out in other threads already.
It's true this is a problem, you can't really see it coming as an alien, maybe you can guess it from the marine behavior, or if you know that this particular commander like to do it.
Anyway, the question that need to be answered is how much hit points a dropped structure has and how many res the marines loose when it's destroyed. Personally I would go for very low hit points and full res loss, so you can still block aliens but it's very inefficient.
- It's a valid tactic at the cost of TRES (armories, unless built, will not sell for full res)
<b>- Can easily countered by putting cysts all way to the marine base, since marines can't drop buildings on infestation</b>
- Armories don't drop at full health and go down quite easily
If the problem is that you can't take down a marine base, that is not a problem with structures blocking entraces more because aliens don't have effective means to destroy buildings end game, but that was pointed out in other threads already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope nope nope nope nope nope NOPE <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><u>NOPE</u></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
- NOT a valid tactic. Please people stop saying this. It has NEVER been legitimate and shouldn't be legitimized in ns2. Res cost is negligible when comparing to the 75 res it costs to onos. Also structures can be recycled and res gained back.
- aliens shouldn't have to place cysts close to marine base where they can be easily destroyed just to counter against the possibility that they might try use an EXPLOIT to win the game
- against a pack of marines with shotguns all pointed at you firing, you don't have ANY time to take down an armory, even on reduced health
It is the underarm cricket bowl of natural selection strategies. In fact it's a lot worse.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKNQ-crIr50" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKNQ-crIr50</a>
- It's a valid tactic at the cost of TRES (armories, unless built, will not sell for full res)
*Just because something costs TRES makes it neither valid or balanced, fallacious argument
- Can easily countered by putting cysts all way to the marine base, since marines can't drop buildings on infestation
* A 10 res investment prevents cysts from forming around the marine base, argument untrue.
* Also fails to address Onos blocking everywhere else it happens in a map, which isn't just marine base, argument insufficient
- Armories don't drop at full health and go down quite easily
*They drop at enough HP that just a couple leftover marines can finish an onos off, they aren't running away at full HP. In addition I've seen comm drop one just as the first was destroyed RE-blocking the onos, Your argument is a misrepresentation of the facts
Basically, You have to do better than that.
Oh, please do write more responses multiple times, with fat capital letters, which make your opinion so much more valueable.
<!--quoteo(post=1924166:date=Apr 11 2012, 05:26 PM:name=Tinker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tinker @ Apr 11 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm with hapro. The only way it can stay in the game and not feel like an exploit is if buildings are dropped at 1% (a parasite can kill it) or dropped ghosted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So funny. Really.
- NOT a valid tactic. Please people stop saying this. It has NEVER been legitimate and shouldn't be legitimized in ns2. Res cost is negligible when comparing to the 75 res it costs to onos. Also structures can be recycled and res gained back.
- aliens shouldn't have to place cysts close to marine base where they can be easily destroyed just to counter against the possibility that they might try use an EXPLOIT to win the game
- against a pack of marines with shotguns all pointed at you firing, you don't have ANY time to take down an armory, even on reduced health
It is the underarm cricket bowl of natural selection strategies. In fact it's a lot worse.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKNQ-crIr50" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKNQ-crIr50</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are confusing a valid tactic with a cheese tactic. Cheese is actually what you are looking for here. Structure blocking is a tactic used in a lot of RTS games but the question is whether having structure blocking in this game adds to balance. <b>In my opinion of the latest builds</b> it does add to balance only in that hive 1 and even hive 2 onos are RIDICULOUS and armory costs do require TRes. As soon as the onos is properly balanced I will <u>fullheartedly</u> endorse the revival of the NS1 style ghost structures. Losing a 75 res lifeform is no fun then again neither is being on the other side of the onos stun train that can easily annihilate loads of marines in a short time.
I was gonna reply to this, but Industry pretty much said what I wanted to say, so yeah. That.
Easy to implement I think. Just need a unbuildmodel that has no colision and as soon as the marine starts building, the other model with collision gets generated.
Or the more extreme way: Let only the macs drop buildings beside IPs.
Easy to implement I think. Just need a unbuildmodel that has no colision and as soon as the marine starts building, the other model with collision gets generated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 just bring back ghost structures easiest solution. this happens in every rts game in ns1 it was countered with ghost strucutres and server rules. admins would ban you if you block aliens over and over again.
Goo wall anyone?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander right?
I think blocking an onos with structures fully sucks, in saying that i would never do it and if i was on a team where there commander blocked an onos i was chasing, i would stop shooting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like you.